UKC

Does anyone know of somebody having an accident, or a near miss with a GriGri? If so what was the cause of the accident? Has anyone belayed with the rope in the wrong way around?

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I'm sure there's been accidents and near misses with all sorts of belay devices! Why the interest?

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I was belayed by a qualified instructor, would you believe, who advised me just as I got stuck into the crux of an indoor route that he had the GriGri the wrong way round. I don't like them. IMO they have more potential than any other device to get wrong. In the right hands and used correctly they are excellent but I stand by this last statement.

In reply to GridNorth:

I have threaded one the wrong way round, but as soon as you clip to your harness and start taking in it's blindingly obvious. One thing I always do with any device is a lock-off test - before saying "climb when ready" (or "get on with it" depending who it is ) I pull on both the live and dead ropes hard to ensure I'm going to get a proper lock-off and everything is in right, with a reassuring clunk using a tube device. I would recommend anyone to do the same whatever device they use.

Just like pulling on the rope to your harness before you climb - every time - will make you notice if you've got your knot wrong or forgotten to tie in.

FWIW, I would expect most Grigri related accidents would occur when lowering, a procedure I find more than a little cack-handed given that I don't like having one hand holding the rope firmly at any given time when lowering. But the reduction in the number of dropping incidents due to people not paying attention or doing cack-handed hand changes should likely offset that.

Neil

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I had a near miss with the gri gri my belayer using his when lowering me off held the lever open and couldn't hold onto the dead rope as it was moving so fast.
I shouted down and thankfully he let go of the lever so I stopped. When I got to the bottom I asked him what happened he said ' I wasn't expecting you to come off then (Even though he was lowering me down!!!)
Funnily enough I asked him what would have happened if I had fallen off
erm....

In reply to Howardw1968:

NO near misses but I find them so much harder to let rope out of when leading. Always end up having the climber shout give as they are at a clip. They are a waste of time if you ask me

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I've had an accident in the last 3 years...

You probably need to provide a little more info 'cos you do sound a little bit like a paralegal on a fishing trip as it stands

Not that I have a problem with that if that's the case, but you'll get more help here with a bit more information about your request

In reply to steveliput:

That's your belaying at fault; it's got nothing to do with the device.

In reply to steveliput:

This may be the case with thicker of fluffy ropes. I've never had this problem and can pay out smoothly with a 10mm + Gri Gri 2.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:

I'm sure they can be used very well, just never had the inclination to master them as they don't seem worth the effort

In reply to steveliput:

If someone is spending a lot of time working moves and resting on the rope it can give the belayer a bit of relief. Obviously you still don't take a hand off the brake end but the Gri Gri takes the pressure. My belayer was knocked off a ledge over a 200ft drop in Siurana and although a normal belay device should be perfectly fine there is an element of extra safety.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I once dropped a grigri and it caught me right in the big toe. Nearly got me a black toe nail that did. Ever since i only do waist belays and always wear steel toe caps. I feel much safer now.

In reply to steveliput:

I bought one when they first came out under the impression it was a "hands free device". I can't recall if Petzl marketed it this way at first and then got nervous but I know that many of us at that time were under the same impression. Nearly everyone I knew belayed by holding the GriGri in the left hand and paying out rope with the right as this was the only way we could pay out rope quick enough if the leader wanted rope in a hurry. When it was pointed out that this was dangerous I tried the new method, invented by climbers and not by Petzl I might add, but I never really got on with it. I now own a Mammut Smart, it's cheaper, lighter, less bulky, more intuitive to use and IMO less prone to mis-use.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I'm not a big fan of the gri-gri, as I prefer a bit more flexibility in a belay device, but despite all manner of lackadaisical belaying on them witnessed in Europe - the spaniard who takes both hands off the rope to roll a spliff while his mate is climbing is not an urban myth - I've only once known of someone hitting the deck (no idea what the cause was there unfortunately) so I'd say they're pretty safe devices.

In reply to GridNorth:


Pull the rope down and a wrongly loaded grigri will still have the same holding power as any tube type device. Even for a correctly loaded grigri the instructions for lowering tell you to control the descent by braking the rope with your hand rather than by partially opening the brake lever.

CB

In reply to GridNorth:
I don't even like the new method per Petzl's video - it has you holding the moving rope in 4 fingers while pushing the lever with the thumb. Someone taking a lead fall onto a rope which is already moving seems like a recipe for losing control.

I have a slightly different version that involves sliding the hand down the dead rope, then moving it up to the device gripping the dead rope tight, then releasing the cam and paying out using the thumb, then repeating - that way the only time the rope is sliding in the brake hand is with the hand in a brake position. But it's cack handed and slow like just about everything else about the Gri-gri. Not tried one of the other locking devices but they do sound better.

Neil

In reply to cb294:

Maybe so but to be told, just as you are about to commit yourself, is unsettling to say the least.

In reply to cb294:

All the more reason to dislike lowering with them, then, as with a tube device I do that with both hands. I don't like sliding the rope through my hands, too easy to get rope burns or to lose control.

Neil

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I think grigris are very good devices.

One interesting accident I read was a belayer not using his brake hand properly and the device failing to lock because he'd avoided using the belay loop, going through the harness instead, meaning the device was closer to the body. The guy who hit the ground seemed to think this caused interference with the camming.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

Are there advantages of a GriGri over, say, the ClickUp? The latter seems to me simpler and more-intuitive to use (essentially exactly like a normal belay plate), and it is cheaper and lighter.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I have owned most assisted belay devices including the GriGri, GriGri2, Click-up and the Cinch.
IMO the click up actually locks up a little to easily, if you get a behind the climber and they pull the rope up it locks up. Problem is it is harder to release from that point as you have to lift the device back up to the normal belay position.
The GriGri2 is my go to device if my climbing partner is going to be resting a lot.
Whereas the Cinch is my go to device if they are on the onsight/flash/redpoint attempt as it feeds out faster than ANY device I have ever used, the only problem comes when lowering because where it feeds so fast it also mean that the lowering can become very fast. I use a carabiner thru my leg loop as a re-direct which as an extra 90 degree bend and the friction that comes with that.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Jim Titt's recent posts suggest that a Grigri may be superior at catching a fall close to factor 2.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Although in practice it tends to feel like a locking device, CT call the alpine up and click-up "assisted braking" devices rather than auto-locking.

As there's no camming action, the rope is only held by the orientation of the device and safety wise you're supposed to treat them exactly like a normal belay plate.

The alpine up is a great piece of kit, and these days I rarely use anything else, but it shouldn't be considered as secure as a gri-gri. I'll quite happily "lock" it and go hands free on a thick static rope abseil without a prussic back up, but I'd be wary of doing the same on super skinny ropes. You also couldn't use it as a clutch for ascending a rope.

In reply to Ciro:

When I abbed off Carrag Wastad with an Alpine Up on two 8.5mm ropes the locking off was rock solid, too stiff even. And some reviews suggest you can use it as an ascender, though I haven't tried myself

In reply to climbwhenready:

Not sure I´ve ever offered an opinion on the Click Up, I´ve never used one and the one I have to test is waiting for me to finish testing the two-rope version. The DAV tests show it has potential but they are too brief to really tell, used correctly is probably as good as one realistically needs. The GriGri 1 is still the device all others have to be measured against when it comes to braking performance and reliability.

In reply to Ciro:


The UIAA/prCEN test for locking assisted braking devices (as they call them) requires the devices locks on a hands-free FF2 fall. The ClickUp and all devices of this type fail and they are certified as manual braking devices.

In reply to BnB:


Yeah quite often friction is a problem on a long abseil. They do have a trick with another carabiner for that but it all starts to get a bit faffy.

What I meant was that a single skinny rope might not provide enough friction to stop it unlocking if you moved around - obviously that would be a pretty strange use case, was more to illustrate the difference between the actions of the devices - if the gri-gri is locked, it's locked.

I had a play around with it as an ascender and didn't like it, but I guess it depends on how you use it. With a gri-gri at the waist I'd usually feed the dead rope up through a carabiner on the top ascender to give a little 3-1 pulley system, but if you try the same with the alpine up, having the dead rope vertically above the device prevents it from locking.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I fell 13m from the top of a climbing wall when my belayer (qualified instructor) was just standing there squeezing the cam open, he didn't realise what happened until I landed in a heap about half a meter to the side of him!

I still personally use a gri gri and would choose it over any other device for sport climbing, now days im a bit more careful about other people belaying me with them but I still trust the device, just not people who are useless!!

In reply to Neil Williams:



You shouldn't lose control or get rope burns unless you're lowering to fast!

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

All these posts to Jake Lloyd and not ONE person saying "loved you in Pod Racing, maaaan"

Pearls before swine

In reply to GridNorth:


I've seen a person doing exactly the same as you described. It happened today.

In reply to jimtitt:
I am not sure why the gri gri is the device that should be considered as the benchmark device as opposed to any other. I regard it as the single most untrustworthy device on the market. Not because it is inherently unsafe but because too many inexperienced newcomers regard it as a locking device and treat it as such. This is made worse because they will have been 'trained' using thick, furry, often gritty ropes where they see instructors and 'experienced' climbers hands free and then they go into a situation using modern skinnies. I have seen too many close calls.

I am a big fan of the click up. Sure you need a bit of experience to get a smooth feed but I know that if there is an unexpected fall or a belayer makes an error at the vital moment, it will lock out. It is also a lot lighter.

In reply to aostaman:

To be honest Jim is only making that comparison against braking performance and reliability, he doesn't mention other characteristics.

In reply to aostaman:



There´s plenty of more untrustworthy devices out there! There are also climbers out there that think "or a belayer makes an error at the vital moment, it (ClickUp) will lock out" and they are wrong there as well.

In reply to climbwhenready:

My mistake, I thought I'd seen a post where you mentioned it. It is obviously my bad memory!

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

It is the handle that worried me as some kids dropped their teacher and I didn't tail end the rope.
Haven't used them since and resigned immediately for 5 years out as it was my fault not to know all the eventualities. That was what I stated to the said teacher and thus did, he who did not want to pursue me for any legal action. (Broke his arm)
They are assisting belay devices and not locking according to this debate, the handle making for a flyer of rope if activated as well, quite a big consideration at all times, no less than with a released old/new style plate belay device, by far my preference since they work well and lock well. Tail ending them would work too for belay plates but I haven't seen it done as the set procedure in a group indoor or outdoor environment. Less smooth but more genuine I think, gri gri a more solo/trusted pair kind of tool.
I've never instructed with a gri gri since, nor done supervision at all since a one and a half year return after 5 years consideration. I still would though given the ability.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Well I stirred myself to at least do some preliminary testing, certainly the stopping power is good but sadly it stripped the sheath off the test rope 3 times in a row and damaged another one at around 3.5kN which put a bit of a damper on things!
I doubt it would be a problem in normal use but makes getting comparative test results a bit difficult.

In reply to jimtitt:
I don't like the look of lots of ascenders and the like. When I see teeth or serations in the clamp I figure a rope has many different conditions which may occur in the space of one day. A wet rope may attract some grit making it more likely the sheath sticks in a clamp and the clamp appears to be reliant on fairly gradual loading to not be a potential, read dangerous, risk to the rope.
I guess I'd use this stuff in context but it is perhaps why manufacturers aren't guaranteeing their cordage for so long now. There are more things that damage a rope in light use and with no falls.

In reply to howifeel:

Maybe its counter-intuitive, but I think the opposite is actually the case. Gradual loading on an ascender is not good, or rather slippage is not good - when there is some grip but also some movement. The purpose of the teeth is to engage the cam solidly straight away - the teeth themselves don't actually grip the rope, merely engage the cam to grip the rope if you see what I mean.

Don't think I've expressed that terribly well. Ho hum. But anyway, if you think ascenders with teeth are likely to trash wet and/or muddy ropes, a chat with a caver or two would probably set your mind at rest. Compared to cavers, climbers know nothing about ascenders and soggy/muddy ropes.

In reply to howifeel:

Well I don´t test ascenders really, I use them to ascend and that´s fine so I don´t bother. What happens if you start using them for other things is fairly well documented and anyway the users problem. Some other items of climbing equipment aren´t particularly well researched and the safe parameters not really established or well known.
The deterioration of ropes is another problem since the baselines are always set with new ropes for obvious reasons but most of us don´t use a new rope for each outing, I get ropes which are in current use to get a more real-life view on things but this isn´t as easy as one might think.

In reply to deepsoup:

Of course, caving, usually at least a bit damp and dirty and reliant on unnatural lighting for gear checks! Using ropes!! Well like I said, it's context when I would use this stuff. But generally they climb on static ropes don't they and do not have to damage the dynamic fall factor 2 rope I am hoping to preserve for the dream pitch.

In reply to jimtitt:

I certainly don't think it's easy to think it all through. V.interesting to hear the words of someone who tests.

In reply to howifeel:

Yep, harder wearing ropes for sure.
Sounds more like the nightmare pitch to me though, if you're hoping to preserve your special rope for FF2 falls.

In reply to deepsoup:
Especially if you have to jug up the pitch before, can´t be at Stanage.

In reply to deepsoup:

I think I like that reply more as I read it. The teeth engage quickly thus there is no slippage to make the teeth act on the sheath of the rope.
Thus this is not a device to use with static ropes really? Every stop on a run out rope is quite jarring? Thus on a climbing rope, run out, the stretch is important for the handler at device, it is not so jarring but is very fast to clamp the rope.
Except as I read it, many are describing weaknesses here due to how the gri gri is handled, it being possible to feed the rope using the lever instead of the hand on the dead rope. This suggests the teeth may initiate the clamping action instead of the release of the lever competitively, jiggly wiggly, acting like teeth.

In reply to howifeel:

Static rope isn't really static, so no problem there. If it conforms to EN1891, as they (almost) all do, the standard specifies a maximum amount of stretch but also a maximum impact force in a factor 0.3 fall. There's a trade off there, they have to have a little bit of stretch for the one thing but not too much for the other. Stretchy enough to absorb the odd little shocks along the way while someone is doing their SRT or whatever, stiff enough that you don't spend half your energy bouncing up and down.


I don't understand what you're getting at here. You know Grigri's don't have teeth, right?

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I've seen a small child dropped the full height of a small indoor wall - they got to the top and went to lower off when the belayer wasn't looking - they put their weight on the rope so gradually and were so light the grigri never had the change in pull force required to activate the cam and they simply plummetted to the floor.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:
Hmmm. Unless anyone knows differently, I notice the op hasn't been back

In reply to toad:

In Click Up v Gri-Gri I go Click Up every time. The only problem I have had is that it can grab a thick or worn rope if the leader wants rope in a hurry. That's also a problem with the Gri-Gri but seems more pronounced in the Click Up. Of course, in many single pitch sports/wall situations that can be helped by simply walking in. That apart, it does seem to be (almost) fool proof even in inexperienced hands provided you check it is connected properly before you set off leading.
The only accidents (two) I've seen with the Gri Gri were lowering off. The belayer pulls back on the handle, the rope starts running too fast and the panicking belayer instinctively pulls harder on the handle which, of course, in this case accelerates the fall. Before they can work out what they are doing wrong the ground intervenes.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

The key question to ask is, 'Are comparisons between devices possible?'...by which I mean are stats analysed and published? I don't think they are for various reasons, most of them good eg ensuring reliability and effectiveness of data collection.

If you want my take on it simpler devices which have fewer opportunities for incorrect use are good. I think a belayer that thinks they are using a 'locking device', which is not actually a locking device or has been set up incorrectly could be a lethal combination. I prefer to be belayed by someone who knows they have to keep a hand on the rope because I think that means they will...unless they are hit by a rock, fall off a ledge, fall asleep etc etc

Beware a belayer with a camera!

In reply to deepsoup:

No I didn't actually, I guess the conversation broadened and I likened the ascenders that I looked at to a grigri. not really looked one for ages, not at the grigri2 either.
The reason I related static ropes was not based on ascenders (where they are used okay in discussions so far) but grigri belaying or lowering. It seemed to me that if they are instant when clamping the rope then you want some play in the system in the rope to compensate. This would make it more important than usual not to use a static rope.
I also thought you were stating the teeth didn't do more than start an immediate clamping of the rope, thus saying that they have teeth. As this was to describe some types of ascender..... wrong lead.
Are the clamps in a grigri two non serrated bars then, grooved or what?

In reply to howifeel:


That's true, there's less 'slippage' in a hard fall than with a traditional friction plate. A less 'dynamic' belay, you might say, which is also why it's often reckoned a Grigri should never be used for leading on trad gear (as opposed to bolts). In practice the difference probably isn't quite as important as all that, at least not while the belay device is attached to a belayer who's free to move their body about.


That's the idea. The toothed cam in, say, a Petzl handled ascender is first and foremost a cam. The role of the teeth is primarily to engage that cam, I believe, rather than to hold the rope themselves.

I don't think there's anything out there with a lever that will disengage a toothed cam gradually with a load on it, because rope 'slipping' past a toothed cam would definitely do a lot of damage. (Look at the way a Tibloc can shred a rope if it's not used carefully.)


It's a smooth eccentric cam. Works on the same principle as a Stop descender, or an I'D. There's an axle in the middle, and the tension of the rope against one side of the cam turns it and squeezes the rope against the body of the device on the other side. Pulling the handle turns the cam back the other way against the load, releasing that 'squeeze' and allowing the rope to slip through.

Unlike a dedicated descender, the Grigri has a light spring which disengages the cam and makes it less 'grabby'. That makes it practical to pay out rope without always having to hold the handle, but the downside is that it can fail to grab on it's own if the load is light and/or comes on gradually - hence the story above, where a belayer failing to hold the dead-rope dropped a child.

In reply to howifeel:

The Grigri has a smoooth rotating eccentric (or cam if you prefer) which pinches the rope against a flat plate.
Ascenders have teeth or spikes to grip on iced ropes.
You never use a Grigri to belay on static ropes, you are mixing the equipment from two different systems (lead climbing and rope access).

In reply to jimtitt:

For this one time only I beg to differ Jim. I find a gri-gri perfect for route bolting or for indoor routesetting - it may not be as efficient to go up but as it allows very easy transition between ascending and descending and has always locked up with semi-static rope the same as it does with dynamic.

In reply to john arran:

Sure, that´s all I use as well and on a static rope to boot but we probably got our wires crosssed somewhere. The guy above was talking about belaying with static ropes which are not intended or certified for lead climbing in any way whatsoever.

In reply to jimtitt:

Phew, that's a relief.

In reply to Toerag:


Grigri is never meant to be used hands-free. The same would happen with an ATC plate. The problem is the user, not the device .

In reply to PPP:


But does work MOST of the time hands free. Hence it is used regularly to solo aid routes. A belay plate does not even offer this extra margin.

PS. Had my ascender blow off the rope last month cleaning the great roof on the Nose. My fault as I was chatting and not concentrating. My grigri saved me nicely.

In reply to David Coley:

It was in fact designed to be used hands-free, it was derived from a rope-soloing device and then a fall arrest device. UIAA129 which the Grigri conforms to require the device is tested hands free. However if you only rest on the rope it may not lock up so either fall properly or have the belayer hold the rope, the continentals understand this better and leave plenty of slack!

In reply to jimtitt:


That's interesting. I felt sure that it was marketed as such when it first came out otherwise I can't see why I would have parted with so much money.

In reply to GridNorth:

It was originally designed as the Rock Exotica Soloist for rope soloing so by definition hands-free, it became the Petzl ID and then the GriGri. Even the patent for the newest model is titled "Self-arresting rope belay device" and states it is "designed to clamp the rope automatically" and "This tension makes plate 30 and cam 14 pivot clockwise and causes progressive jamming of the rope between wedge 36 and surface 28 without any other action from the user." If these claims are not true then the patent is invalid.

How much do you want to bet OP works for a climbing wall and just banned grigri usage because they are dangerous?

In reply to jimtitt:

That's not correct Jim, the I'D is a separate device entirely, it's the rope access belay and descent device with anti-panic function, which came after the Grigri. Are you sure about the RE Soloist too, because all the RE devices like the Microcender etc. look very different to the Petzl ones, being machined out of block rather than pressed from sheet and riveted. Perhaps they used the concept but it doesn't look like a RE design by any stretch.

In reply to jimtitt:
The Gri gri has been around alot longer than the I'd. Petzl bought the Rock exotica designs at the end of the nineties but the soloist was never bought into Europe. I've never heard of the Gri gri being based on the Soloist and I don't think it was.

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

91 or 92 ish I think.

In reply to danm:

In between was the Petzl Stop. they all came from the original Rock Thompson idea which Petzl took over. The Stop was turned into a belay device by Peter Popall and Petzl´s designers and the construction changed as loading the rope into a Soloist is impractical.

In reply to GridNorth:

90/91 probably, the Stop was around a lot longer but somehow the design must have been changed so much it wandered into Soloist territory, probably because the Stop has two pulleys specified in the patent instead of camming against the body.

In reply to jimtitt:


Hmm, not convinced. If you visit the Petzl factory in Crolles there is (or there was) a glass case showing a Petzl Stop being cut down and modified in stages to create a Grigri prototype. The Stop was developed from the simple back in the late seventies, early eighties, well before Petzl had bought Rock Exotica. The ID is a far more complicated device and was developed later.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

A friend was badly injured after rashly allowing the new love of his life to belay and lower him on a Gri-Gri. When the latter got out of control she only remembered that she had to do something with the handle, and pulled back hard on it....

In reply to Jamie B:

is this the recent aberdeen transition accident you're talking about?

In reply to illepo:


No, didn't hear about that one. My friend's mishap occured several years ago in Holland. But I've seen plenty of worrying lowers when I worked in another climbing wall, enough to convince me that the Gri-Gri is not a good beginner device. People seem to struggle to get a balance between handle and dead rope - for me a friction device is more "organic" and obvious.

In reply to Jamie B:

I would agree, or at least I would say the lower off needs to be controlled by an instructor. A design change such that the release was in the middle of the lever pull, with a hard pull causing braking, would improve it, but I still dislike the idea of the rope sliding through hands rather than a controlled lower where one hand holds the rope firmly all the time.

Neil

In reply to Jake Lloyd:

I've noticed my local wall only uses ATCs for adult inductions nowadays. They trained ATCs and GriGris when I did mine a few years back.

In reply to Neil Williams:

That's what a belay device called Camp Matik will have.

In reply to PPP:

(quick Google)

Perhaps centres should switch to those from Grigris, then? I think that is a very good idea, and it looks like a similar device so no learning curve either.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

The Edelrid Eddy has had this function for the nearly ten years, it´s not popular!
The fundamental debate is whether people who "panic" should belay (or even be involved in climbing whatsoever). As Gary Storrick says "The lever function provides partial backup for the belayer not knowing how to use the lever, but like all such devices, it relies on the belayer being completely incompetent rather than partially incompetent - by definition, a partially incompetent belayer would drop me too fast without moving the lever past the release point."

In reply to Neil Williams:

As far as I am aware, it's going to be released in shops only next year.

In reply to jimtitt:
That's an interesting point, but surely it would exclude all novices? Though to be honest novices are far better with a competent climber tailing the rope than some sort of device substituting for that.

But even not for novices - there is a very good reason why many descenders have adopted this principle, as anyone can panic in the right (wrong) circumstances.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

I´d have thought the goal should be to teach novices to belay competently using a variety of devices and not to panic when belaying.
The only accident I know of with the Eddy was an experienced climber who got into the panic mode of the device and then froze as he was trying to release it as it was no longer intuitive nor what he was used to, to get back into lowering mode you have to go backwards through the point of no grip which is exciting (or causes you to crater). There used to be instructions somewhere on the internet of how to remove the panic function so clearly it´s not everyone´s cup of tea. Petzl could have added a panic function to the Grigri but clearly thought there were reasons not to.

In reply to Jake Lloyd:
10/10 - over 70 replies and the OP has not reposted. Having said that, an interesting discussion, Personally, I rather like the "Alpine Up" - I feel safer with that when my 13 year old son is belaying, than I do with other more conventional devices.

In reply to jimtitt:

Precisely ^ this.

Reflexes can be learned. You can see that from the right foot of someone in the passenger seat of a car going too fast. It's only after they learn to drive that they start involuntarily stomping on an imaginary brake. Perhaps its not so much a question of novices learning not to panic so much of learning that if the lower (or abseil) is going too fast, it's the dead rope that you grip tighter. (Not the handle, the live rope, the body of the device, or anything else..)


Also interesting to note that after the I'D descender had been on the market a while they brought out the Rig, ditching the anti-panic function (and the anti-threading-it-the-wrong-way-around cam) to produce a smaller, lighter device.

That Camp belay device does look good though. The thing with the Eddy where the anti-panic lock leaves the user stuck on the wrong side of wide-open struck me as a design flaw, it looks from that youtube thing that Camp haven't gone the same way.

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Way too generous. If the OP was trolling, you don't get 10/10 for an interesting discussion. That would require a lot of flaming (and ideally people arranging to meet for a punch-up by email).

In reply to jimtitt:

Or perhaps it's simply that the Grigri is quite an old device, and inertia caused such a mode not to be added, or that it would require too substantial a redesign. It wasn't necessarily a deliberate (lack of) design feature.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:
Interesting thread.

How about a situation where a belayer is hit by a falling rock using a standard belay device (e.g. ATC) (e.g. hold snapping & leader falling)?

In such a situation the belayer would have be able to hold the faller - who would then suffer a ground fall.

In this situation an autolocking hands-free device would prevent a ground fall.

Now, I've never used a Gri-Gri or similar, but this incident makes me wonder as to whether such a device would increase safety. I appreciate that these devices are not classified as "hands-free" nor as autolocking.

I would appreciate any opinions.

In reply to kylo-342:

Technically, yes - GriGri is safer. However, for sport climbs in the UK, rock is usually quite solid (probably with exceptions, as Dunglas was unstable as hell!). For trad climbing, half ropes are usually used and GriGri is a single rope device. Also, falls when GriGri is used puts more impact force on protection: http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html (Myth 7).

In reply to kylo-342:

I was hit on the leg by a recently-used handhold whilst belaying last weekend, having jumped rather vigorously out of the way to avoid it hitting my head instead. I held the fall, and certainly didn't consciously let go of the rope at any point, but was still glad I was using a GriGri.

In reply to PPP:


What information do you have to support that statement?

Honestly curious. There's a lot of conjecture around such things. Would be interesting to know, in properly trained individuals, the accidents per 100000 hours split up by device.

(I half expect the munter to come out safest.)

In reply to needvert:

I referred to the situation of the post I replied to - a belayer have been hit by a rock, so the belayer is unconscious and can't keep the hand(s) on the rope. Then it's definitely better to rely on a hands-free GriGri rather than hands-free ATC.

However, I still believe that GriGri in general (if the cam movement is not restricted by thumb, GriGri is set up correctly, etc) can't be worse than ATC. I don't use ATC any more at the climbing wall as there's no reason not to use GriGri.

In reply to PPP:

Ahh. My bad, I didn't check to see what you were replying too and assumed it to be a general statement.

My local gyms doesn't allow Grigri's for safety reasons Any other device is fine though.

It strikes me as one of the greater unanswered questions in belaying, which device leads to the least accidents. One day I hope to find a study or paper answering that question!

In reply to needvert:


I'd say here are possibly two questions:
1. which, given the relative amount of use, has the fewest accidents.

and, of more interest to most climbers I would suggest,

2. which, given the relative amount of use, has the fewest accidents for each form of climbing and each level of experience of user.

If most accidents with one particular device are at the wall and from those new to climbing then I'm not sure it will be relevant to me most of the time. However, it will help me to spend more time explaining how to use it when I am climbing with a novice.

In reply to needvert:

Well the DAV have statistics on the relative use of the various devices and the accident rate BUT they aren´t exactly definitive since they only cover climbing walls they own and don´t seperate out incidents and accidents, user experience and all the rest of the variables if i remember rightly. The Cinch was worst anyway.

In reply to PPP:

A Grigri is IMO safer *if and only if* it is being used, or the use is being closely supervised, by someone who is competent in its use. If a novice is using it, it is *only* safer if the instructor closely supervises, on an individual basis, the lower-off, because the lowering off procedure is cack-handed and counterintuitive to a novice.

Or to put it another way - a Grigri is *not* a substitute for having someone competent tail the rope when someone is not a fully competent belayer.

So they are probably a good choice for walls using them for bell-ringing, because the instructor controls the lower-off. They are a good choice for sport[1] climbing with a high chance of rockfall where the belayer is familiar with them. But they are a bad choice if you're taking the risk of having someone belay you who isn't quite as experienced as they should be. Because you'll be fine on the way up and if you fall off, but on lowering there is a huge chance of them screwing up.

[1] Paying out slack is also immensely cack-handed, another time when competence is key.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

I admit that, but in experienced hands, it has very small probability of misuse. It does NOT provide any extra safety for beginners. For few sessions, I was struggling with it as well, but I knew what I should do and what I shouldn't do.

I just love GriGri because I don't have to keep the rope tight if someone takes a break. Tying the belay plate off is just not worth it. It's not so intuitive to use, it tends to crossload (hence, I use either DMM Rhino or BD Gridlock) and it does not substitute an ATC. Still, at right hands and at right place, it's brilliant.

In reply to PPP:

I certainly think it has a role. I'm just, as I say, convinced that putting one in the hands of a novice (without someone tailing) is asking to get dropped on the lower-off.

Neil