UKC

How old are your quickdraw slings/dogbones?

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This is something that crosses my mind from time to time, although it has to be said it hasn't stopped me using them yet. I do take the odd small fall from time to time sport climbing, but I'm not working routes and falling multiple times a session. I take occasional fall trad climbing also, but that's pretty rare as well, considering I probably climb on average around once a week, year round. The nylon and dyneema bits on my quickdraws all look in good order, and I know I store them appropriately. But I'm also aware some of them are over a decade old now.

Until reading this thread last week https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/dmm_pro_wire_qd_fail-738762 I don't think I remember reading about a non-damaged sling or dogbone failing in three decades of reading the magazines and then reading climbing websites and forums. Down the years I've heard or read about (lots of) krabs failing in different way; wired nuts snapping (seems rare); cams failing (also fortunately rare) and so on. But fortunately stories of harnesses, rope and slings (that haven't been damaged in some way) failing seem very very rare. 

I'm just interested in what other people who have climbed a long time consider acceptable for them in terms of age of their quickdraws and slings? Am I an outlier trusting 12 year old slings or is this pretty normal among people who have been climbing since the 90s or earlier?

 whenry 05 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I recently replaced my 11 year old dogbones - they'd had regular use, including plenty of falls on both trad and sport. They were clearly getting worn - they were a bit furry and some of strands were separating around the ends. I still trusted them, but I'd been contemplating replacing them for a couple of years and decided to just get on with it.

One of my regular climbing partners was regularly using a fairly ancient set of Field and Trek quickdraws with their original dogbones - they were at least twenty years old. It's fair to say that I didn't enjoy pushing my grade when using them, though they'd probably had less use than my draws and held fewer falls. Fortunately, he's now replaced the dogbones.

I generally replace slings more often because, mainly climbing on limestone, I use them for threads frequently and they get a bit mangled from that.

Ultimately, it depends on the condition of the gear, but I'd generally replace slings and dogbones between 10 and 15 years' old, if not sooner.

Post edited at 23:36
 nikkormat 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Most of my trad gear is 10 years old, but it hasn't had much use in the past six or seven years as I now mostly climb sport. I am happy to keep using it for those occasions I do climb trad. Maybe in a few years I'll retire it.

 james1978 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I had some for 15 years and was never in doubt about how strong they were, then replaced them just as a matter of course because I'd had them so long. At £3 per quickdraw it was the cheapest, most incredible psychological boost to look down and see all "new" draws on the bolts.

Just do it, you'll be pleasantly surprised! 

Cheers, James. 

In reply to TobyA:

Eleven years, but I replaced all the dogbones last year after I found myself having mild doubts while stressed above them.

 Andy Gamisou 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

When did quickdraw slings become known as "dogbones"?  Seems to more common of recent, and (for me) is one of those terms that really grates for reasons I don't fully understand (other terms that seem to be entering the climbing lexicon that I dislike for no good reason include: "bottom roping", "stickies", and "for Christ sake get a move on you fat f*ck" (although to be fair I do understand why I dislike the latter))

 Mowglee 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I think mine are about 12 years old. Like yours - in good condition, always stored correctly, and I have no worries about them. Nylon/dyneema doesn't spontaneously degrade over time - it needs prolonged UV exposure or other chemical attack to significantly weaken.

I think the example in the thread you linked is very much a result of confusion on the part of the leader and/or belayer leading up to and after the fall; gear snapping seems the least likely explanation. Much more likely either a mistake before the fall, or someone forgetting exactly what they did afterwards.

 Ciro 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I replace mine when they get to about six or seven years old whether they look good or not. It's cheap, in the grand scheme of things doesn't create a lot of waste, and makes me feel confident in my gear. I do take a lot of falls though.

 jkarran 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> Until reading this thread last week https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/dmm_pro_wire_qd_fail-738762 I don't think I remember reading about a non-damaged sling or dogbone failing in three decades of reading the magazines and then reading climbing websites and forums.

I'm far from convinced that's what happened on that thread either. There's almost no way a dogbone fails simultaneously both ends even if the stitching rips one or other end will almost certainly hang on damaged.

> I'm just interested in what other people who have climbed a long time consider acceptable for them in terms of age of their quickdraws and slings? Am I an outlier trusting 12 year old slings or is this pretty normal among people who have been climbing since the 90s or earlier?

Some soft bits of my kit date back to 99/2000 but I hardly use any of it anymore. The age doesn't bother me at all, my main issue is winnowing out the salt damaged krabs.

jk

 jkarran 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> When did quickdraw slings become known as "dogbones"?  Seems to more common of recent, and (for me) is one of those terms that really grates for reasons I don't fully understand (other terms that seem to be entering the climbing lexicon that I dislike for no good reason include: "bottom roping", "stickies", and "for Christ sake get a move on you fat f*ck" (although to be fair I do understand why I dislike the latter))

They've been dogbones for decades. It's sometimes a useful distinction between a quickdraw's 'dogbone', closed in the middle, loops each end and a short open sling.

jk

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Back in the days of printed catalogues, I used decorate my student flat room with the superb, full page photography from the mid-90s Black Diamond catalogues. Anyway, I'm pretty certain BD was calling them dogbones back then. So I think I've seen them referred to as that for well over 20 years - it's actually quite useful as quickdraws generally refers to the slings and krabs, and "quickdraw sling" is a more of a mouthful/hassle to type! 

Edit: like jk, I tend to think of slings as being open loops, I don't use them on quickdraws anymore, since DMM showed how easily they could fail if you used an elastic band or whatever to hold the rope end krab in place. 

Post edited at 09:41
 d_b 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

At least 20 years in some circles.

Other people I climbed with at the time refused to use the term "quickdraw" because they felt it implied they were sport climbers.

Post edited at 09:49
In reply to jkarran:

> I'm far from convinced that's what happened on that thread either.

Same here, although it's hard to know. I've heard of a number of krabs just breaking in normal falls when people are pretty certain they haven't been cross-loaded or something like that. Who knows, enough monkeys in front of enough typewriters and someone leaves their quickdraws next to some corrosive agent of some sort? Possibly without even realising? Then a quickdraw sling could snap? Again, just speculation.

 jkarran 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> Same here, although it's hard to know. I've heard of a number of krabs just breaking in normal falls when people are pretty certain they haven't been cross-loaded or something like that.

Snappy krabs will almost always be open gates, bending or twisting, even when left all neatly aligned things happen in a fall.

> Who knows, enough monkeys in front of enough typewriters and someone leaves their quickdraws next to some corrosive agent of some sort? Possibly without even realising? Then a quickdraw sling could snap? Again, just speculation.

Oh I totally believe they can snap if damaged, just not that both ends did simultaneously, as soon as one end fails, there's no load to finish the other end off.

jk

 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to d_b:

What on earth did they call them instead? 

Can you pass me up the snap gate carabiners connected by a closed loop sling with rubber keeper at one end and loose at the other?

Besides, wasn’t it a Yosemite bid wall climber who came up with the term “Quickdraw”? Not exactly sport climbing!

 d_b 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

They generally insisted on "extender" iirc.  Personally I never had a problem with either term, because I would rather climb than get worked up about the true name of a piece of nylon* and a pair of snapgates**.

*I did say it was 20 years ago.

**How dare I call them snapgates!  They are...  never mind.

Post edited at 10:58
In reply to TobyA:

Slightly off topic...I have a bandolier that I put my quickdraws and sling runners on. I found it on Scafell East Buttress in 2014, it looked as if someone had used it to ab off a route, and it looked pretty grotty so I think it had been there a while. I assume they used it as it was already an old one at the time. I cleaned it up and use it regularly now. A few weeks ago I was running two pitches together on a mountain route and ran out of extenders (all 20 of them!), used my prussik as an extender and then used the bandolier as an extender. It did make me think it might be time to invest in a new one.

 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to d_b:

Ah extender, not one you hear much but I have heard that before!  I was genuinely intrigued as to what they call them!

I get told off for calling a cowstail a "tether", a hangover from being taught how to climb outside by an American lass!

 LastBoyScout 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

A conversation that came up with me and a few mates recently.

Some of my quickdraws are easily 20 years old, the slings are much newer, but I'd need to go and check the dates on the tags. I've replaced some over the years and a couple are showing light signs of use, but none of my current ones have ever taken any leader falls. They have mainly lived in a rucksack for much of the last 10 years, anyway,

They're only being used for setting up topropes with the kids and I'm not leading anything I'm likely to fall off at the moment, so I'm happy with them at the moment. At some point I'll replace all the software, though.

 Damo 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I rarely climb anything hard enough to fall off these days, but I do still wonder the same thing. I've always been a bit old school reluctant to replace gear that wasn't visibly damaged, so have often climbed on slings/draws more than 15 years old. And still do, but...

Some years ago(5?) Richard at: https://www.facebook.com/RichardDelaneyRopeLab did some tests on the old Petzl Express sewn quickdraw/dogbones that were so popular in the 90s (and early 2000s?) and of which I had at least six or eight, still in use. His test specimens were donated by local Australian climbers, probably Blue Mountains mostly. 

Short story is that that OK-looking slings - no fraying, no fading, no damage - failed surprisingly lower than their rating. It was still enough to hold most falls, but significantly short of their original strength, which in theory should not have been affected much, if at all. It was enough to make me retire all mine and buy some new BD ones and I concur the psychological benefit is a thing. I still have older long BD slings, though I also retired my oldest (mid-90s) ones and take them on expeditions, where I don't mind losing or donating them, or use them only for alpine routes, where I won't be freefalling (other than to my death, obvs!), for use on snowstakes etc.

In reply to Damo:

As ever Damo, really useful and interesting! I remember BD's QC lab/blog tested sports draws that had been left hanging for longish periods on sunny US crags - probably out west in the deserts, and the UV had affected them, although I'd need to check back because it might have been they were still pretty strong.

I do wonder if Aussie quickdraws out in the Blueys might see as much UV radiation in a few days as mine get all summer! 

I'll look into your facebook link when I have some time. Cheers. 

Some of my skinny long slings (120s) must be the same sort of age as my older quickdraws. I tend to only use them on mountain days and winter climbing where lack of bulk and weight (they're 8 mm I think) is always nice. I've got some newer 11 mm or slightly thicker ones that get used week in week out on my local cliffs. I guess I should think about retiring them too...

In reply to TobyA:

BTW, if anyone has a lead on the best prices for dogbones I'm all ears! So far looking at it Rock and Run seem the best prices I've come across, but it's still around 40 quid for the right length and width range I would want. I know I'm very lucky in that mainly from various UKC reviews down the years, I have a rack of 'fat and big' plain/bent gate draws for sport, then a bunch of wire gates on skinny dyneema for trad and winter climbing, but it does mean the amount of nylon and dyneema needed to replace the oldest adds up!

 Lankyman 06 Sep 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> They've been dogbones for decades. It's sometimes a useful distinction between a quickdraw's 'dogbone', closed in the middle, loops each end and a short open sling.

What?! This thread is the first ever instance I've come across this term in decades of climbing. Never heard it or seen it in print or online. From the seventies it was always quickdraws or just ''draws' Sounds like 'send' - kill it now!

Post edited at 13:03
 jkarran 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

What can I say, I started late 90s and they were called dogbones among other things back then by people I knew.

jk

In reply to Iamgregp:

> What on earth did they call them instead? 

> Can you pass me up the snap gate carabiners connected by a closed loop sling with rubber keeper at one end and loose at the other?

> Besides, wasn’t it a Yosemite bid wall climber who came up with the term “Quickdraw”? Not exactly sport climbing!

Extenders or Tie offs when I started climbing.

 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Dogbone just refers to the middle nylon part of the draw, not the whole draw with hardware.

I'm surprised this is the first time you've heard this, it's a pretty common term and has previously been used on this forum I'm sure

 daWalt 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Damo:

> Short story is that that OK-looking slings - no fraying, no fading, no damage - failed surprisingly lower than their rating. It was still enough to hold most falls, but significantly short of their original strength,

This is essentially the same conclusion that I read in Berg-und-Steigen a good few years ago (it helps if you can read german) - but I just can't find the actual article.

https://www.alpenverein.at/bergundsteigen/archiv/themen/ausruestung-und-norm/index.php

from memory (it was a few years ago - please don't take this as "bomber")...

as above, and - dynema seemed worse in regard to loosing a significant proportion of strength just through age. an appreciable drop in strength was seen in dynema (otherwise visually fine) that was 5 - 10 years old (this is the key bit I'm unsure about - if the strength reduction was significant or just noticeable after 5 years)

decent condition kit that was tested still failed above 10kn (I think, certainly didn't rush out and retire everything I had) but I'v been much more ready to retire "frayed and old"...

(it's bugging me that I can't find the article.....)

 Lankyman 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Dogbone just refers to the middle nylon part of the draw, not the whole draw with hardware.

I never paid for a 'dogbone' or got asked in a shop if I needed one

> I'm surprised this is the first time you've heard this, it's a pretty common term and has previously been used on this forum I'm sure

As I said before, I've climbed for decades in the UK and worldwide and I'm certain I would have encountered it if it was at all common. I don't have any evidence but I'd be interested if you can find an article, thread or advert where it's used.

In reply to TobyA:

> I'm just interested in what other people who have climbed a long time consider acceptable for them in terms of age of their quickdraws and slings? Am I an outlier trusting 12 year old slings or is this pretty normal among people who have been climbing since the 90s or earlier?

Totally normal.  I semi-retire mine after about 25 years, and they then gradually get used for securing luggage, ladders, gates, horses and dogs.  You only see the new stuff.

Unless it's gear that's been left in situ in sunlight, I'm not aware that there's any increased risk unless there is wear and fraying, short of exposure to battery acid.*

* Maybe I'd be more careful with skinny tapes, but then I tend to traditional full-weight slings for routine use.

Post edited at 13:43
In reply to Iamgregp:

Yeah weird, never heard them called a dog bone in the 20 + years of climbing around the Peak, Wales, Lakes and Scotland. Must be very niche.. 

 Andy Gamisou 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Funny how you can spend over 30 years keenly pursuing an activity and not pick up on jargon.  Anyway, I'm off back to my hemp rope and Woolie's plimsolls...

 Andy Gamisou 06 Sep 2021
In reply to d_b:

> They generally insisted on "extender" iirc.  Personally I never had a problem with either term, because I would rather climb than get worked up about the true name of a piece of nylon* and a pair of snapgates**.

You're probably on the wrong website then

 james1978 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I'm sure I remember climbing with some army guys back in the mid 90s and they always referred to their rock boots as "stickies"... 

 Andy Gamisou 06 Sep 2021
In reply to james1978:

> I'm sure I remember climbing with some army guys back in the mid 90s and they always referred to their rock boots as "stickies"... 

Yes.  My local crag is popular with military training groups, and they refer to them as stickies.  As my relationship with the various groups has been "variable" over the years, this might be from whence I get my ambivalence.

In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

I just googled "dogbones rock climbing" and loads of shops selling them do come up, so it doesn't seem so unusual. Looking at https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/category/quickdraw-slings it does seem that it is BD in particular who call them that - maybe it's even a trade name to them? - but that fits with memories of seeing the term in use in BD catalogues.

It's funny, when I wrote the original post it didn't even cross my mind to call the who unit "an extender" rather than a "quickdraw". But if I hear "extender" I only think of quickdraws. Terminology changes I suppose - for years I think I called them extenders most of the time, but somehow that has morphed to using the term quickdraw predominantly. 

Does anyone call anyone else "a wad" anymore? It seems not. If "wads" was very Noughties, I'm not sure what it changed to in the Teens if you want to express that someone is super strong? My mate said (quite ironically I'm sure) "Venga! Venga!" to me on Saturday as I psyched myself up for my next big 6a "send" at Harpur Hill. I'm sure a few years ago it would have been (just as ironically) "Allez! Allez!"

 neuromancer 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Weirdly I was going through my rack after a week in Pembroke, and noticed that my circa 2010 vintage 8mm dyneema alpine draws and wild country 11mm dyneema dogbones were pretty frayed. I read all the tests, and mine seemed more frayed than most of the 'poor condition' examples in the tests. I'd never even thought about them before then, but after research, I now had doubt. Ever plagued with doubt about falling after some nasty ones, I ponied up the £3 or whatever to resling them. The tests all seemed to show them failing at lots above the failure rating of most bits of gear, but I suddently had a discomfort in my gut.

As taking a crap didn't solve it, I paid £30 to do so. Not that much, after ten years.

 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> I never paid for a 'dogbone' or got asked in a shop if I needed one

Same.  But then there's a lot of things I've never paid for or asked if I needed, but I know what they are

Ads and articles wise....

It's used here (scroll down) https://www.alpinetrek.co.uk/quickdraw-slings/ and here https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/category/quickdraw-slings and of course lots of other ads too.  Seems to be the actual name BD ones are marketed under, maybe they coined the term?

It's been used on countless threads https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/search.php?forum=0&dates=1&name=&topic=&body=dogbone

Just google dogbone climbing and all sorts comes up!

I'm not doubting your word, however!  Just as surprised as you are.... 

EDIT: Apologies, written before I saw Toby's reply.  He's already said half of this!

Post edited at 15:04
 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

Yeah weird innit?  You're a far more widely travelled and seasoned climber than me...  Really genuinely quite baffled!

 Lankyman 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Yeah weird innit?  You're a far more widely travelled and seasoned climber than me...  Really genuinely quite baffled!

Is it used in That London place ... ?

 Iamgregp 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I'd expect that's the case... Some things that we have down here haven't made it to The Up North yet... Y'know stuff like calling them dogbones, street robberies and warm weather

Now whilst we're here.... "scon" or "scone"?!

In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

> Yeah weird, never heard them called a dog bone in the 20 + years of climbing around the Peak, Wales, Lakes and Scotland. Must be very niche.. 

Me neither.

This is a dog bone...


 Lankyman 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> This is a dog bone...

Reminds me of a scene in 'Life on Mars' when Sam Tyler nearly lands in a dog turd while chasing a baddie. 'Ah, white dogshit - reminds me of when I was a kid'. I laughed out loud but my ex didn't get it at all. It helped if you'd lived in an era when dogs ate lots of bones and sh@t on the pavement.

In reply to TobyA:

I replaced all mine earlier this summer after 11 years. £4.50 a piece from Needlesports.

 Ian Parsons 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> This is a dog bone...

I think you need a bigger dog, Dave!

 FactorXXX 06 Sep 2021
In reply to Ian Parsons:

> I think you need a bigger dog, Dave!

Small, far away...🐄

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Extenders or Tie offs when I started climbing.

Half a century ago, "tie-offs" were small nylon slings of cord or tape for girth-hitching around pegs to reduce the leverage compared with clipping or threading their eyes. 

This thread makes me realise I wasn't being too cautious when I retired a very frayed no.3 hawser sling after 50 years of use!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Totally normal.  I semi-retire mine after about 25 years, 

Yes, your swish and shiny Wild Country quickdraws aside, I can see some of yours must be a bit older than your kids! 😆

> You only see the new stuff.

As the yoof say... LOLs!

In reply to Ian Parsons:

She was one of a pair who were quite enough of a handful, thanks!

They now hunt down student volunteers and lick them to death.  Unless they have any open wounds, obviously. 

 Ian Parsons 06 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA: I replace mine on my birthday every (April) then I know that the draws are going to be good for the whole season. It costs less than £50.00 for 18 quickdraws and peace of mind is satisfied 

 BrendanO 06 Sep 2021

… but I'd be interested if you can find an article, thread or advert where it's used.

https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/category/quickdraw-slings

 FactorXXX 07 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

To put some context to this.
That UKC Forum Search for 'dogbone' bought up 93 messages in 73 threads over a 18 year period.
Whereas, a similar search for 'Quickdraw' was 1060 messages in 600 threads in 8 years.
 

 Damo 07 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> I do wonder if Aussie quickdraws out in the Blueys might see as much UV radiation in a few days as mine get all summer!

Hmm, maybe but I doubt it. We do have clouds here*, you know!

The Petzl Express quickdraws would have been mostly used on sandstone, maybe a little granite and maybe the occasional sea-cliff, if that helps, but I doubt it made too much difference in webbing that was not visibly damaged. I doubt any of them were left hanging for days on end as semi-perma.

I haven't gone back through the swamp to the link (Richard's Ropelab posts a lot of stuff!) but I'm pretty sure the breaking point was still strong enough to hold almost all real-world falls. Possibly either repeated falls (working a sport route) or some particularly bad free fall with a big person on certain gear in a certain position might threaten that point though - and who knows when we approach those points? That's why they're called accidents. Weird chit happens.

Also worth nothing that for those of us here that climb trad (possibly a tautology) and on stuff like Australian sandstone, in a big dynamic fall it's more likely the rock on the placement will fail, or the piece pulls because you muffed the placement, or you hit a slab or a ledge first and thus reduce the forces, than a 15yo sewn sling will suddenly snap in half.

* should note though, just for the record, that in Antarctica (a few thousand km south of Australia) the UV effect on tent flies is very definitely noticeable over just a couple of months, mainly in terms of fading, possibly in terms of strength. You'd probably need a year or more of constant exposure in Australia to achieve the same impact.

Post edited at 00:38
 Iamgregp 07 Sep 2021
In reply to FactorXXX:

They're not the same thing.

 FactorXXX 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> They're not the same thing.

I assumed 'Dogbones' were so named because a short sling with a krab either end looks like a dog bone.  
That makes sense, calling a short length of tape doesn't as it has absolutely no similarity with what someone would think a dog bone would look like.
Maybe the term has evolved?  

 Donotello 08 Sep 2021
In reply to james1978:

> I'm sure I remember climbing with some army guys back in the mid 90s and they always referred to their rock boots as "stickies"... 

I’m not a fan at all of people calling climbing shoes ‘Rock boots’ - it conjures up pictures of those high top climbing shoes you see in 80’s shots. When was a little slip on plimsoll with a hard rubber base a boot? I picture everyone who says it as being grey haired. 
 

Eventually got over how annoyed it made me but thought this thread was a good place to share that.

Post edited at 00:42
 james1978 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Donotello:

Well, they were army guys circa 1994... you can imagine that boreal fires/ Asolo high tops and Ron Hill "trackies" were the standard uniform. 

My apologies if this annoys you! 😂

Post edited at 05:09
 Kevster 08 Sep 2021
In reply to jkarran:

Salt damage seems a big issue for anodised crabs. I rack my trad rack using dmm (phantoms especially) and the damage looks like subtle wear of the surface where they rub together, but when you push your finger nail in, its obviously a significant exfoliation. 

Retired 5 crabs the other day, all off my cams.

Check yer crabs! 

 CurlyStevo 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Kevster:

Personally I always give my kit a rinse within a few days of climbing on sea cliffs. Ropes is probably less necessary to do as frequently as metal kit.

In reply to FactorXXX:

> I assumed 'Dogbones' were so named because a short sling with a krab either end looks like a dog bone.  

> That makes sense, calling a short length of tape doesn't as it has absolutely no similarity with what someone would think a dog bone would look like.

> Maybe the term has evolved?  

A short sling (12cm) tightly stitched in the middle, will be wider at the two loop ends and thus, nominally, resemble a dog bone. I've never used the term myself and all the manufacturer descriptions I've seen refer to '12cm slings'. I seen it used enough to know what it means.

 PaulJepson 08 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

For anyone with fuzzy quickdraws having doubts, Rock & Run sell 5 packs of DMM slings that are currently £18: https://rockrun.com/products/dmm-dyneema-sling-11mm-x-18cm-5-pack?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=CPC&variant=31454755144&sfdr_ptcid=8795_100_68887794&sfdr_hash=154ee272243c08789dc519abac7b80b8&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz_6lnffu8gIV5-jtCh2ozQTwEAQYAiABEgLB2PD_BwE

That's £3.60 each and they're the proper dynatec ones like the second photo (no idea why the photo of the old ones is in there). 

 Iamgregp 08 Sep 2021
In reply to FactorXXX:

No, the dogbone is just the nylon part joining the krabs.  

Granted the skinny nylon part of a trad draw doesn't look much like a bone, but if you've got fat sport draws I guess they're a bit more bone shaped, especially from the side...

 Iamgregp 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Donotello:

Same, I think it's just a bit of a holdover from when all climbing shoes had high tops and is now an anachronism.

However the same is true for football boots, and that doesn't bother me at all.  Nobody would ever call them football shoes!

In reply to Iamgregp:

> Ah extender, not one you hear much but I have heard that before!  I was genuinely intrigued as to what they call them!

I think "extender" used to be the universal term. I still use it a lot of the time. I think "quickdraw" came in with sport climbing and has largely taken over. I have only very recently heard "dog bone" - I assume it refers to those stiff quickdraws sewn along their length especially to make clipping bolts easier. I think a more common term is "sportsdraw".

 Offwidth 08 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

You missed the fun destructive testing Dan did some years back at the BMC area meetings. Two brand new slings one cut half through and one rubbed on some rough grit for a few seconds across the width. The cut sling failed at a higher breaking load. No one should be using furry slings on lead protection. As for bleaching I snapped a very bleached sling on an ab station with my hands at Red Rocks NV.... never ab on a bleached sling and always leave cord if possible.  I've only ever lost one sling-draw to near failure...I took a swinging fall off The Link at Stanage and cut it half through as it rubbed along a lip....still got back on and finished it on the damaged draw ( then retired it).

 Iamgregp 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Digressing a bit but I read somewhere that the term quickdraw (I think) was coined in Yosemite by one of the 60s Bridwell/Jardine/Robbins era (I forget which now)...  Anyone know?

I think it said whoever the inventor of the term was used to have a bunch of draws pre clipped to the rope so that he could reach for it and clip a bolt/runner quickly, hence the term.  Obviously the pre clipping to the rope has gone now though!

Sportsdraw is not a term I've heard before, or one which has been used in this forum previously, so with respect, I'm not sure you're right on that!

Post edited at 13:32
 PaulJepson 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Kit is so specialist now that names are evolving. I still use the term 'extender' but for extendable draws (or 'alpine draws'), because you can extend them in length. Makes things easier, as you might carry a selection of short draws, long draws and extendable draws. E.g. "put an extender on that" if the gear is under a roof. 

> I think "extender" used to be the universal term. I still use it a lot of the time. I think "quickdraw" came in with sport climbing and has largely taken over. I have only very recently heard "dog bone" - I assume it refers to those stiff quickdraws sewn along their length especially to make clipping bolts easier. I think a more common term is "sportsdraw".

 Jon Greengrass 08 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Last time we moved house my wife asked why I was bothering to pack my old ropes, harness and  slings which at that time were 13 yrs old, past the 5yr  lifetime for softgoods PPE, and hadn't been used in 7yrs at the point.  I explained I was comfortable continuing to use the gear, knowing that it had been stored in a clean dark place well away from anything that could contaminate and degrade it., but my wife wasn't,  hundreds pounds of gear went to the dump that day.

 Ian Parsons 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Digressing a bit but I read somewhere that the term quickdraw (I think) was coined in Yosemite by one of the 60s Bridwell/Jardine/Robbins era (I forget which now)...  Anyone know?

> I think it said whoever the inventor of the term was used to have a bunch of draws pre clipped to the rope so that he could reach for it and clip a bolt/runner quickly, hence the term.  Obviously the pre clipping to the rope has gone now though!

This might help:-

https://verticalarchaeology.com/2014/07/21/forrest-mountaineering-rabbit-runners/

Forrest's use of 'quick draw' isn't the same as our current use - it refers to the rapid deployment of a sling - but the term clearly resonated.

The pre-clipping system that you mention, of which the later rip-off velcro 'jet tabs' that appeared on some harnesses was a further refinement, is described in the 1984/5 Edelrid catalogue - and probably its predecessor the previous year - as the 'express technique'; the relevant page is headed 'How to use quick draws'. They also credit Bill Forrest as the inventor of the "quick draw or rapid runner", although I wonder whether the latter term is a corruption - intended or not - of the 'Rabbit Runner' in the above link. The accompanying catalogue diagram shows a climber wearing the standard 1960s/70s Edelrid chest harness [with its fairly narrow braided webbing shoulder straps] and tied into a pair of ropes; each rope, left and right, has a small bunch of short 'rabbit runner' draws [actually more-or-less Bunny Runners] pre-clipped, with their bolt/peg/gear-end krabs racked in order of use - ie first at the top - on the corresponding shoulder straps. You could obviously get in a bit of a tangle at the wrong moment if anything was racked or pre-clipped in the wrong order! I guess the fairly rapid acceptance thereafter of pre-placed draws when redpointing went some way towards reducing whatever popularity - if any - this technique might have enjoyed.

Although the dogbone-type draw is referred to in that same catalogue as a 'magic' sling, I think that 'express sling' became the normal generic term among European manufacturers for that sort of short, sewn-together-in-middle extender;  it appears in other catalogues of the time and is still used by Petzl for their fat sport draws. I suspect that 'dogbone' derives from North America, possibly Black Diamond specifically; the term appeared in their catalogues from 1995 onwards.

Post edited at 16:27
 Moacs 08 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> Until reading this thread last week https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/dmm_pro_wire_qd_fail-738762 I don't think I remember reading about a non-damaged sling or dogbone failing in three decades of reading the magazines and then reading climbing websites and forums. Down the years I've heard or read about (lots of) krabs failing in different way; wired nuts snapping (seems rare); cams failing (also fortunately rare) and so on. But fortunately stories of harnesses, rope and slings (that haven't been damaged in some way) failing seem very very rare. 

I wasn't convinced by that thread that the tape loop had failed or whether the draw was improperly assembled.  Talk of three runners, then one, a loose krab on the ground (rather than on the rope), etc. 

To your question, I change them when they look worn/fluffy.  The time period doesn't worry me much.

 Lesdavmor 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Iamgregp:

I met some climbers from the NW of England who referred to quickdraws as "clipups"

 wbo2 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Ian Parsons:

I am thinking that it's something to do with a route called the gunfighter at Hueco tanks, and was coined by the late Todd Skinner.  He was racking his extenders quick draw style on his vest or t shirt rather than his harness. 

Stickies was coined  in the 80's when Fires appeared

 Ian Parsons 08 Sep 2021
In reply to wbo2:

> I am thinking that it's something to do with a route called the gunfighter at Hueco tanks, and was coined by the late Todd Skinner.  He was racking his extenders quick draw style on his vest or t shirt rather than his harness. 

Yes; I thought there was a route there of that name and have been searching - so far unsuccessfully - for a dimly-remembered large photo of it in Mountain. And Todd certainly had a cowboy thing going on. Wild Country had their Gunfighter harness in the late 1980s - complete with the velcro jet tabs - which presumably tapped into the same idea. So although the term was already around I suspect that you might well be correct in thinking that Skinner did much to popularise its modern use.

 jkarran 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Kevster:

> Salt damage seems a big issue for anodised crabs. I rack my trad rack using dmm (phantoms especially) and the damage looks like subtle wear of the surface where they rub together, but when you push your finger nail in, its obviously a significant exfoliation. 

I'm not sure if it's the anodisation or the significant amount of forging modern krabs get vs old bent wire designs. Whatever it is you're right, the salt really gets into them and wrecks them! 

> Retired 5 crabs the other day, all off my cams.

I've had to bin dozens over the years. Life by the sea eh.

Jk

In reply to Damo:

> .... His test specimens were donated by local Australian climbers, probably Blue Mountains mostly..., no damage - failed surprisingly lower than their rating. 

Ah but the Australians have the disadvantage of strong  sunshine on their climbs, no such trouble in the UK

 wbo2 08 Sep 2021
In reply to Ian Parsons: It came straight away googling... I think there were also pictures of the Yorkshire  cow punk Craig Smith on it that were in some magazines..

 Lankyman 08 Sep 2021
In reply to wbo2:

> It came straight away googling... I think there were also pictures of the Yorkshire  cow punk Craig Smith on it that were in some magazines..

 Kilnsey Division Of Labour (E6 6c) on the cover of Mountain

Post edited at 20:11
 Ian Parsons 08 Sep 2021
In reply to wbo2:

Indeed - it was Craig Smith's piece in Mountain #116 that I was looking for. The photo that I had in mind turned out to be When Legends Die, although there is a smaller B&W of the author on The Gunfighter over the page. Neither, unfortunately, helps with the current debate!

Notwithstanding my earlier suggestion that Europeans tended to use the 'express' for 'dogbone', and that Petzl still does - a 1988 Petzl advert shows that back then they called them quick draws, and used 'extender' for open draws.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I’m just thinking of that Ron Fawcett photo were he’s out there on some ground breaking route and his quickdraws were just 2 crabs clipped together 

In reply to Iamgregp:

> Digressing a bit but I read somewhere that the term quickdraw (I think) was coined in Yosemite by one of the 60s Bridwell/Jardine/Robbins era (I forget which now)...  Anyone know?

Maybe its adoption here just happened to coincide with the rise of sport climbing then.

In reply to wilkie14c:

> I’m just thinking of that Ron Fawcett photo were he’s out there on some ground breaking route and his quickdraws were just 2 crabs clipped together 

That's certainly what I and my climbing partners did in the early 80's with "extenders" reserved for when they were particularly needed. I'm struggling to remember when the routine use of "quickdraws" on every wire became the norm.

 galpinos 09 Sep 2021
In reply to Ian Parsons:

> Notwithstanding my earlier suggestion that Europeans tended to use the 'express' for 'dogbone', and that Petzl still does - a 1988 Petzl advert shows that back then they called them quick draws, and used 'extender' for open draws.

The French adopted "quickdraw" as well as dégaine derives from dégainer which means "to draw (a weapon)".

In reply to PaulJepson:

> Kit is so specialist now that names are evolving. I still use the term 'extender' but for extendable draws (or 'alpine draws'), 

Weren't alpine draws what we now call thermals?

 biggianthead 09 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

I normally replace my slings in the 10-15 year range.  I don't fall off and my kit is stored in the dark. I inspect my kit thoroughly a couple of times a year for damage.

However I have a fall back quality control inspector. The conversation went a bit like this.

Son - "Dad you've had those slings a long time"

Me - "Yeah there good aren't they?"

Son - " You've had those slings a REALLY long time"

I replaced them

In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Weren't alpine draws what we now call thermals?

You are behind the times. They're now a base layer pant.

In reply to TobyA:

Just another data point. I have been on here and reading magazines since way back and I don't recall ever coming across the term dogbones for quickdraws. But it works, I get that.

In reply to mbh:

I don't think anyone calls a quickdraw a dogbone, it's the name of the quickdraw sling, ie a sling stitched in the middle with a loop each end. 

In reply to stevevans5:

That's what I meant.

In reply to TobyA:

So just a wee update - after doing a route Any Old Iron (6a) at Horseshoe yesterday, and at the top climbing quite some way above the last bolt to get to the anchors (fortunately pretty easy ground) I looked carefully at my Wild Country sponsored hero dogbones on some of my sports draws - including the one I had clipped to that last bolt. They were given to me by a mate when he was winding up his involvement in a climbing shop side-business. He thinks they were freebies given to the shop to maybe give out as prizes or something. They are very chunky and reassuring looking, but a bit of internet sleuthing on the codes on the labels suggests their date manufacture was June 2000. Ho hum. A closer look at the labels on some of the skinny 60 cm slings I've used as sling draws also suggest that they are over the age of consent and on their way to being able to vote. Ho hum again.

Anyway, I've just ordered new slings for all my trad quickdraws and the elderly sports draws. about 65 quid, but I suppose I can stop worrying about it until the 2030s now!

I'm glad and surprised this thread gained so many interesting contributions, even if many were just "who on earth calls them dogbones?!" Well, I do!


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