UKC

Is climbing on a doubled up half rope a pain?

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 SiobhanStraver 09 Jun 2020

Context: the classic, I’m deciding on half rope length, sorry. Currently use a 35m single. Almost always will use on peak grit and welsh MP, but want to get into winter stuff (though unlikely for a couple years) 
 

It’s come down to if I get a 60m I can climb on it doubled in the peak, which seems like a great shout. But in reality am I going to hate this and never do it? So always just begrudge the extra length? 
Just wondering about people’s experiences- how rough is it climbing on two ropes of the same colour? 
 

Post edited at 23:44
 Slarti B 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Take blue.  Slack on ...blue   

Post edited at 00:13
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 Timmd 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Slarti B:

I read of two sisters climbing who named one of the ropes 'Felicity' because they were both the same colour, quite creative lateral thinking.

Post edited at 00:36
 brianjcooper 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

> how rough is it climbing on two ropes of the same colour? 

Slarti B's reply hits the nail squarely on the head brilliantly. I sometimes use just one of my half ropes doubled, but it can be a real pain trying to avoid criss crossing the rope when clipping protection.  I've got two Beal 60m Cobra II and on shorter climbs use one with my thinner single 50m 9.8 Karma, which feels like a half rope. 

Post edited at 00:40
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 purkle 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It's totally fine. Me & my partner do it all the time. If the gear is particularly complicated or the route has traverse sections it can get very slightly tricky sometimes giving slack on the correct rope, but certainly not inhibitory or annoying enough to not use the rope. It's fine. Coming from me who's genuinelyagenuinely anxious about belaying perfectly and always having slack at the exact correct time  

 purkle 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

When leading, I'm always careful to take the rope from my harness and run my hand up to clip so I can be sure I've got the left or right rope. It's easy.

 GrahamD 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

The biggest pain I find is that you can end up with twists, especially if the leader tries into the ends and the second into the middle before the leader sets off.  I find it better for the leader to tie into the middle and, unless using a bowline, this can be a bulky knot.  This might just reflect how I'm trying to flake a double up rope, of course.

I don't find colour an issue.

 nikoid 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It's perfectly doable, but the fact you see people rarely doing it probably tells you all you need to know. They are probably doing it because someone has forgotten their rope! It's just not ideal. If the leader needs to rest on gear, and everyone is a bit stressed it can sometimes be difficult to work out quickly what rope needs to be taken in. You don't want to take in the wrong rope and risk lifting gear out! Also there are usually twists in the rope for the second. 

7
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Keep a cheap, chunky single for trashing on the grit. Buy a nice skinny whatever you really want (pair?) and keep it (them) for things that aren't so destructive.

 Robert Durran 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It is generally a complete nightmare in my experience. 

10
 Scott K 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

If you really want to get one to use, try a bicolour or bi pattern triple rated one. You could then use it as a single. Pretty pricey though.

 Mark Bull 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Once you get round to the winter stuff, you will be glad to have the full 60m.  

I sometimes climb on a doubled 60m route if it's a short route with straightforward ropework, easy communication with my belayer and where I know I won't need to go a long way back to reach a good belay.  Even on some grit routes, you won't be able to climb the route, clip the belay and walk back to the edge with (effectively) 30m of rope.  

As said above, ropes with different weave patterns on each half do exist, but they are quite expensive. 

Post edited at 08:49
 ianstevens 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

> Keep a cheap, chunky single for trashing on the grit. Buy a nice skinny whatever you really want (pair?) and keep it (them) for things that aren't so destructive.

This. Grit is harsh on ropes, especially so on nice skinny half ropes. Most grit stuff is straight and there are little to no benefits of using halves.

2
 Andypeak 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Slarti B:

> Take blue.  Slack on ...blue   

You obviously missed the left and right lesson at school. 😉

 Andy Clarke 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

PITA. Whenever I do it I swear I won't do it again.

 TobyA 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Last night doing this. Despite looking carefully, or so I thought, I still put the strands of rope in the wrong sides of my belay plate, so left was on the right and so on. It's not the first time I have done that. I'd go for "a bit annoying" rather than anything worse, pulling up say 90 mtrs of 8.5 mm is also annoying though, if you take two 60 mtr ropes up a 15 mtr outcrop route!


 kwoods 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Kind of surprised to see a lot of folk say its annoying as I do this a lot at outcrops and never had an problem. Left and right seems to work OK.

 mrphilipoldham 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Buy yourself a pair of 30 halves for grit (easiest to find someone who also wants a pair and buy two 60s and chop them), and another rope for the mountains. It might cost more initially but you’ll get twice as much use out of them so need to buy them half as often.

There’s only a handful of routes that need longer ropes on grit and for those special occasions just use your other rope! 

Post edited at 10:55
 mrphilipoldham 10 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Most grit is never that far off the deck either, and sometimes having two marginal bits of gear on two ropes is more reassuring than two extended marginal bits on one rope. 

 ianstevens 10 Jun 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Just take a pad? Nice to sit on as well, plus a little bouldering in the mix. Beats owning a million pairs of rope, and more versatile. Each to their own of course, but the things is dislike most about climbing is the (necessary) faffing about with rope.

7
 jkarran 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

> Just wondering about people’s experiences- how rough is it climbing on two ropes of the same colour? 

Almost no bother at all. Try with your current rope, see how you like it, I regularly folded my 10mm wall-rope for outcrop climbing.

jk

 Rob Parsons 10 Jun 2020
In reply to kwoods:

> Kind of surprised to see a lot of folk say its annoying as I do this a lot at outcrops and never had an problem. Left and right seems to work OK.


Me too.

 mrphilipoldham 10 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Trad routes aren't graded for bouldering mats I'd rather cart a nice compact rope in to a crag than faff with a mat, but agreed, each to their own!

A million pairs of ropes is over egging it a bit. I own a pair of 50 halves, a pair of 30 halves and two singles which are now largely used to make dog toys and are of unknown length. Takes up about 1/10th the space my bouldering mat does!

Post edited at 11:55
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 Alkis 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I do it all the time. I tie onto the middle with a bowline putting the dead loop around my waist. Helps that the new Mammut Genesis is weaved in a way that makes its colour look different depending whether you are looking up or down it, so left and right are different colours.

 George_Surf 10 Jun 2020
In reply to kwoods:

I’m with you on this! I thought it was the norm, I often climb on a doubled half and it’s rarely a problem. I don’t see why you wouldn’t; increased redundancy, increased safety, increased lack of rope drag, more versatile if you change your plans or crag.

Granted they’re the same colour but you’d only double them on short outcrop routes so problems if the ever arise will be spotted either by yourself or the belayer, they’re only 10m away! I did recently cut a pair of 60s to 40s for general multipitch trad use, nice to drop 2kg and 20m of lap coils...

 ianstevens 10 Jun 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Trad routes aren't graded for bouldering mats I'd rather cart a nice compact rope in to a crag than faff with a mat, but agreed, each to their own!

Well that's the issue isn't it!

> A million pairs of ropes is over egging it a bit. I own a pair of 50 halves, a pair of 30 halves and two singles which are now largely used to make dog toys and are of unknown length. Takes up about 1/10th the space my bouldering mat does!

I own 60 halves, a 60 single and a 30 single. "Science" suggests they take up 1/4 to 1/5 of the space of my pad - how big is your pad??

 Alkis 10 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

That is a teeny tiny bit of an exaggeration. My previous pair of Mammut Genesis halves lasted me nearly 500 routes, most of them on grit.

 skog 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

It's fine.

If the same colour thing bothers you, put a bit of, say, black tape or rope marker at one end, and another a metre or so that side of the middle, and call that side 'the black rope'.

 GrahamD 10 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

> This. Grit is harsh on ropes, especially so on nice skinny half ropes. Most grit stuff is straight and there are little to no benefits of using halves.

I'd say I'd have to disagree on both those points.

In reply to SiobhanStraver:

If you’ve never been winter climbing, and don’t even know if you will, I wouldn’t purchase a rope with that activity in mind.

50m half ropes are perfect for the overwhelming majority of rock climbing in UK. Why you would want to lug an extra 20m of rope around, the extra expense of buying it, plus more rope to pull in at each stance, and coil it at the top of each route, is beyond me.

While 60m ropes are useful for Scottish winter climbing, they are far from essential, and every low grade route in Scotland will have been climbed with 50s.

You can do most (all?) of the routes at Stanage on a doubles over 50m. I do this a lot, and only find it annoying if I am climbing at my limit. 

I would get a classic 8.5mm 50m half rope like a Beal Cobra or Mammut Genesis. I wouldn’t get a 8mm half as these wear out quickly, are more likely to get damaged in a fall, and stretch more so you are more likely to hit the ground when falling on short crags.

HTH  

 Offwidth 10 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I use one half rope tied in the middle the vast majority of the time on UK trad. Probably 90% but as grit is my most climbed rock it's a tad distorted. I always use two half roles on routes with long pitches (25m+) or inescapable sea cliffs.

On the bulky knot issue, I sometimes use a 'Chris Tan death knot' on climbs that are a good bit easier than my limits to avoid any bulk and give an extra couple of metres of pitch/belay reach. Thread the middle loop through both parts of the harness, put the loop over your head down your back, step through, and pull tight. This doesn't slip much.. it locks hard when shock loaded from one end but will risk rubbing the harness and rope on rope so should clearly be avoided on routes where a fall is likely, let alone never when any potential big fall factor fall is possible or situation with regular falls (especially dogging a route or sport use). It's occasionally handy when roped soloing on wandering grit lines as you can adjust the rope position on the harness quickly if needed. Some with a nervous disposition modify this knot by tying a figure 8 with a 1m loop and use that to form the 'death knot', then adjusting the much smaller knot to be tight on the harness: this removes a bit more rope and makes adjustment harder and won't stop the movement issues at the harness in a fall. If I'm pushing harder I nearly always lead off the ends and sometimes will use two half ropes, if communication is tricky (windy days, complex pitches with hidden sections for the climber at belay and the second).

When using one half rope you do need to be careful with communication and pay attention to your rope ends given both ends are the same colour but I see this as partly a hidden bonus as the extra focus is helpful to keep risk down. You do need to remove twists first if leading off the ends but it's best to flake the ropes even with two half ropes (and twice the work). Twists are not as much as an issue for me as some other climbers as I often don't untie between grit routes as carrying half the rope bulk of two half ropes makes alpine coils more comfy.

Post edited at 13:13
 Cobra_Head 10 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

> The biggest pain I find is that you can end up with twists, especially if the leader tries into the ends and the second into the middle before the leader sets off.  I find it better for the leader to tie into the middle and, unless using a bowline, this can be a bulky knot.  This might just reflect how I'm trying to flake a double up rope, of course.

> I don't find colour an issue.


This, you can get rid of the colour issue by getting a bi-colour rope.

 GrahamD 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I like the CT 'death knot' too, but don't quite trust it enough for hard (for me) leads.  Its almost certainly psychological,  though.

 mrphilipoldham 10 Jun 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

It’s a chunky one. I ummed and ahhed over 1/6 and 1/8th and eventually went for 1/10th for dramatic effect. They all live in my car bar the singles so laziness stopped me doing a scientific piling on the living room floor

Post edited at 14:05
 Offwidth 10 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I'd love to see it tested. It might be as safe as any other or it might not... if you excuse the pun... best to be cautious until then.

 Toerag 10 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

>  pulling up say 90 mtrs of 8.5 mm is also annoying though, if you take two 60 mtr ropes up a 15 mtr outcrop route!

Make it less annoying by getting the second to tie in to the ropes as soon as you've rigged your belay and trail the rest behind them.  You can the get them to help pull them up, coil and carry them.

 Nik 10 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

depends if your climbing partner can remember left from right. mine can't.

 Alkis 10 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

Bowline, dead loop over your head so it's around your waist is always a good compromise I find. Not particularly bulky.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> Why you would want to lug an extra 20m of rope around, the extra expense of buying it, plus more rope to pull in at each stance, and coil it at the top of each route, is beyond me.

This is very true I'll concede. In part it's hard to get away from the feeling that at some point I'll regret foregoing the extra metres, but perhaps I'll be cursing them at every anchor in the meantime..

But also part of me has been thinking that a 60 doubled on grit would be better than two 50s- which seems like overkill. Then I effectively have a set of 30s for grit and 60s for MP. 

Just doesn't work if i find i hate my '30s' being the same colour  

Post edited at 17:57
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> 50m half ropes are perfect for the overwhelming majority of rock climbing in UK. Why you would want to lug an extra 20m of rope around, the extra expense of buying it, plus more rope to pull in at each stance, and coil it at the top of each route, is beyond me.

Last pair I bought were 70m. Because they were cheaper than the 60s. Not cheaper per metre, straight up cheaper. You figure it out.
I always figured I'd chop 5m off each end but then never did. The time they've saved me by getting down Dinas Mot in one, and halving the number of pitches on easier stuff, probably about makes up for all the time I've spent coiling the extra length, and swearing at the added weight and faff. They made it to the ledge on Superdirect on the Milestone with a bit of gentle stretching.

Post edited at 18:16
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Doing 60m or 70m rope stretching pitches is all well and good, until you lob off near the top and hit a ledge on the way down. 

3
 oldie 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> I use one half rope tied in the middle the vast majority of the time on UK trad. Probably 90% but as grit is my most climbed rock it's a tad distorted. I always use two half roles on routes with long pitches (25m+) or inescapable sea cliffs. On the bulky knot issue, I sometimes use a 'Chris Tan death knot' on climbs that are a good bit easier than my limits to avoid any bulk and give an extra couple of metres of pitch/belay reach. <

What are the issues with simply connecting the harness belay loop to a figure of eight on the bight with a screwgate? I'm fairly sure there've been threads discussing this. I know someone who uses this method, and I've occasionally used it in the past. I think I've read its  compulsory at some Australian climbing walls, but my memory may be at fault.

 deacondeacon 11 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I do it all the time. Particularly on Grit. Even if I have both ropes with me, I'll just grab one and fold it. Lead on the ends and death knot for seconding. 

 GrahamD 11 Jun 2020
In reply to oldie:

Screwgates aren't great if you are leading because there is a chance they will get cross loaded in a fall (seconding much less chance and forces are lower).

 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Indeed I'm amazed at this practice of pitch stretching sometimes in the US.... it's OK if you are cruising well below you lead grade but I've seen climbers struggling a long way from their belayer sometimes with more gear on their harness than I use to start a pitch and a small rucksack on their back and the extra rope drag from not using two half ropes. Rope stretch will see potentially huge falls at 60m above a belay. A rucksack will increase the risk of flipping upside down.

 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I'd be less equivocal. No one should be leading on a rope attached to the harness with a standard screwgate. It's a terrible idea given risk of cross-load failure and no benefits.

 TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I wouldn't lead without tying in, but when seconding on a doubled rope I "tie in" with two screwgates back to back.

I know someone who 'fell off' a top rope at climbing wall in Finland many years ago when it was normal to attach your self to a top rope with a knot left at the end insitu with a screwgate. He was sure the screw gate was done up, but thinks brushing it against holds and overlaps must have worked it open. IIRC there were other similar sounding incidents around the world back when this still happened at walls.

 kwoods 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

A rethreaded overhand knot to tie on in the middle (screwgate the tail to belay loop) is a good solution that doesn't rely on the screwgate as you described. I used to do that as well (occasionally still do) but definitely a bit scary. 

 TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Although for on big icefalls the more rope you have out the more faith you can have in your screws.

Are you saying big falls because of rope stretch or because most people will be running short of gear after 40 mtrs of sustained climbing? 

In reply to TobyA:

On big ice falls, or any ice fall, you shouldn’t be falling off! Ever.

Falling off without a lot rope out on easy ground is dangerous, because you might hit/bounce off a ledge on the way down. If the terrain is broken I often find it is quicker, and more enjoyable, to do short quick pitches than rope stretching monsters, where you get weighed down by rope drag. 

 TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> On big ice falls, or any ice fall, you shouldn’t be falling off! Ever.

Sure. But that logical endpoint of that is either solo or don't go ice climbing.

I have fallen off an icefall, only a diddy one. Fortunately survived without a scratch (or a broken ankle!) https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/01/for-ice-climbers.html although I was actually wrong in that later when I looked carefully, the stitching did start pulling on the screamer, it just didn't fully deploy. 

I've hit the ground from the bouldery start of a mixed route - ripped one nut, it can't of been great but I imagine it being the only bit of gear and not much rope out DIDN'T help there! I've still got the scar on my calf muscle from that one - and the puncture hole in one pair of longjohns and my old Patagonia guide trousers!  

 Dom Goodwin 11 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

My 90m rope changes colour at the half way point (pink/blue), which seems sensible for a very long rope. Dunno if you can get a 60m rope that has 2 different colours? 

2
 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

In the cases I saw it was always slack and minimum rope stretch when 60m+ into a linked pitch. These people were clear idiots carrying too much gear for their strength and starting to struggle when using a technique only suitable for much better climbers for that grade. On a similar subject we helped stop a moron considering stretching an abseil to a point they were forcing extra stretch (over and above their body weight) in the ropes with no knot in the rope ends. Also we had issues on a few occasions where climbers told us to stop climbing up as there was no room on the only belay bolts on a massive ledge with lots of obvious cracks. Obscure climbs are less stressful in this respect than the honeypot classics. It's not just US climbers, climbing Royal Arches the other experinced UK pairs in our British group of 6 both messed up the abseils with one pair requiring a benighted rescue.

The YOSAR message is clear

"Most Yosemite victims are experienced climbers, 60% have been climbing for three years or more, lead at least 5.10, are in good condition, and climb frequently.  Short climbs and big walls, easy routes and desperate ones – all get their share of the accidents."

"at least 80% of the fatalities and many injuries, were easily preventable.  In case after case, ignorance, a casual attitude, and/or some form of distraction proved to be the most dangerous aspects of the sport."

http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm

 TobyA 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Ok, but that sounds like people who don't really know what they are doing is the issue rather than 60 mtr ropes and long pitches! I just looked at the description for Sydpilaren (n6-) in the app and most of pitches are listed as 50 although, some 70! That chimes with what I remember - we never ran out of rope, we would have had 60s, but by the time you both tie in, and then climber one has used some rope in the belay at the bottom of the pitch and climber two leads the 50 mtr pitch and uses some rope to build the belay at the top of that pitch, 60 mtr ropes are pretty necessary. Some Norwegian routes I've done are equipped for 50 mtr abseils too - I'm sure that means that 50s are enough, although being a scaredy-cat abseiling, I quite like the extra 10 mtrs (plus of course knots in the end!) to make sure I find the next anchor without worrying I'm about to run out of rope!

But, in the UK, I agree with Tom that 50s have always seemed plenty and a shorter rope than works well for grit meaning you lug less weight around.

 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Look at the YOSAR stats.... those were not multi pitch newbies. Neither were most of the people we met in the US doing idiotic things. I think the scale of really big routes just gets to some people: in the UK (maybe with the exception of long winter routes) a bit of faff is no issue. You can usually trust the weather forecast. You don't need to think so much about hydration or emergency bivi gear.

My most used grit ropes are a 60m half and a 38m half offcut.

Post edited at 14:50
 GrahamD 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I think my most use grit rope is an 'ex' 60m rope I used for longer stuff with the worn 5-10m looped off either end.  Not really sure the exact length but it seems right for grit and other short crags.

 Offwidth 12 Jun 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

I forgot one of my 60s is 56m as it lost an end in Sinai due to a loose rock that fortunately missed Frank the Husky.

 ianstevens 12 Jun 2020
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I opt for the alternative spare room floor pile allowing easy comparison

 Jamie Wakeham 12 Jun 2020
In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Find someone who is in the same position as you, buy a pair of 60m ropes between you, cut them both in half, and you've each got a pair of 30m ropes?

In reply to SiobhanStraver:

I'm surprised nobody has made a bicolour 70m triple rope yet

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> I'm surprised nobody has made a bicolour 70m triple rope yet

https://sterlingrope.com/store/climb/ropes/dynamic/lightweight/nano-ix-09-m... 

Actually they have. So you can say 'take on stripes' or 'take on solid' 

In reply to SiobhanStraver:

Easy, just keep green on the left. It is not a great problem for the experienced. If you are starting out then removing the complication would be a good idea. 

More seriously, if buying a pair try to get colours with different syllables, yellow and blue for example. Easier to differentiate on a windy day. For similar reasons avoid black (slack). 

A step further might be to buy 2 ropes from different manufacturers, the different textures can then be identified by feel whilst you are fumbling blindly at your crotch (couldn't resist that). 


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