UKC

Hello all, 
I've been a more or less proud owner of nomics (gen2) for the past 3 or 4 years and have now managed to break (bad case of wobbly head) my second nomic in this time. So, despite being a fan, I think it's time for a change. 

I mostly climb ice (up to W6), some mixed (M6/7?) sometimes involving pitons and the occasional bit of tooling. Any suggestions for a new type of axe out there? I was looking at the BD Fuels or - the rather extreme option - some Grivel Master Alloys...?

Cheers!

X-dreams , I am also a proud nomic (first gen) user and have not had any issues at all with mine but I wouldn't buy the new ones. I recently got a quick go on a pair of x-dreams and they are great on pure ice, better than the nomic I think, also reports suggest they are also very good on mixed and dry tooling. I've noticed that some people are using them in the ice world cup this season so must be good. The new reactor looks very similar as well. 

If not Nomics then X-Dreams.

i was so disappointed with the Fusions on Ice (laser picks) that I'm staying away from BD till I get the chance for a proper test myself.

My experience with Fusion 2s on ice was awful as well — enough to put me off the Fuels as they have the same geometry (though a different weight distribution). I also found the Cobras pretty disappointing on ice.

Conversely, I’ve only heard good things about the Reactors. But that’s only ever been from BD athletes. Never seen them in the wild. 

Greg Boswell is singing the praises of the new Grivel Dark Machines, if you can hang around until they're commercially available.

Admittedly Grivel do sponsor him, but I'm sure he wouldn't trust his life to gear he thought was substandard!

My Nomics are still hanging in there, but I have my eye on the Dark Machines for my next axe.

I upgraded from Nomics to Fuels after the head wobble began. I'm still not sure why Nomics have such a cult following with all the issues, but that's another story. 

Fuels climb mixed really well, and I'm the limiting factor when it comes to ice climbing so I can't really complain there.

My only gripes are the BD picks seem quite soft and wear quickly (replaced with Kuznia Speju ones) and the head/pick bolt can work its self loose if you climb cracks where thats the main hooking part. I now climb with the little BD tool on my harness for quickly re-tightening if necessary.

X dreams, I really rate mine. The bd reactors are a bd copy of x dreams so I guess will be good also but I haven't seen them to compare.

No rush to replace this winter, see what next year or the sales bring. 

Had to read that twice, mistook rate for hate.

The Grivels do look good and I would be liking the Tech Machines if it wasn't for the handle, but not sure about the carbon shaft in Scotland. I have the Quantum Tech and don't think they would stand up well.

What makes you say that?

The new Reactor is basically a direct copy of the X-Dream. But with better hammer option. Albeit I think Camp/Cassin might have also upgraded their picks.

just comparing the damage to my regular axes against the damage from just a couple of routes with the Quantum Tech's to the carbon wrap.  I could see the shaft getting obliterated after couple of mixed routes.   I haven't used them on any serious routes because I'm too scared of the damage that would occur.

I've used X-dreams since 2017 and pretty happy with them. Petzl lost me as a customer due to the repeated wobbly head problem. I've found the X-dream picks are a bit of the soft side. A friend of mine broke a pick recently as well on mixed. It's worth retrofitting the axes with some Russian or Polish picks for mixed. With Cassin alpine ice picks I use the Cassin weight picks, which I ordered separately. The balance feels more like the Nomics with the weights fitted. I much prefer the X-dream handle as it feels more positive and it's nice to have a proper spike on the base of the handle to clip leashes. I broke a handle trig rest in the first season but no signs of the problem repeating. Parts can be a bit more faff to get hold of at short notice compared to the bigger players. I'd buy another set of X-dreams tomorrow if I had to, although I'd consider the Grivel axes as well as they look similar, and the Grivel picks look really good, so probably no need to retrofit.

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But seeing how their last copy performed, I'm going to let someone else find out.

Another option

http://www.eliteclimb.com/

That doesn't seem likely - if there were any chance of the shaft sustaining serious damage - ie, being ''obliterated" - then it wouldn't pass a safety test.

So are you just referring to surface damage? In that case just wrap the shafts in some tape as many climbers do anyway. I had a pair of Cobras I wrapped in magnesium oxide tape and coated in plastidip for that reason.

Well I keep them for alpine routes and have a few pairs of beater axes for Scotland.  I may well be wrong and feel guilty as I climbed a lot with Takoons which were essentially the same axe.  Just couldn't imagine climbing Unicorn with a Carbon tool.  Maybe I'm being precious but I'll let someone else find out.

Not at all, I've just got a pair of aspeeds and don't want to use them because they are to nice!

I'm not sure about those safety tests either. UIAA page doesn't seem very real wold.

Grivel Tech Machine/Carbon, X dreams while I wait for the Dark Machines to arrive. BD doesn't do anything exciting any more. DMM switch are nice too, if you like a heavy, burly tool.  

What are you doing with your 'broken wobbly' nomics? If you want some cash for them then let me know. Good luck with your quest for a replacement.......Jeff

The difference was that with Fuel they simply modified Fusion IIs to be more like Nomics, creating the Fuel. But as said, not a copy of something, but mod of existing to be akin to something. 

Reactor is done from scratch and in all essense X-Dream w/ BD pick placement & alpine hammer (and I’d assume also adze for those that wan’t something like that).

That said even the original Fusion works on ice. Sure you’ll need to get used to it but it can be done. 

I'd go for Xdreams, tried and tested and never heard anything bad about them, only praises. I climbed with Fusions recently and were terrible. Fuels and Reactors could be good but I haven't seen anyone using them so hard to get first hand opinions. Grivel mmmm , not sure, I never rated their handles and doesn't look like the Dark Machines are much different. 

Two weeks ago, I ran across a guy  that was using a prototype of Grivel Dark machine X. Nomic like swing, toyish weight and super comfortable handle coated with rubber stuff like on all other dry tooling tools from Grivel. Two things are certain, it will be outstanding tool and it will be super expensive.

Why not just mend your Nomics if you like them?

jk

£350 each I heard

So Fusion 2 is a copy of the Nomic - check

Fuel is a modified Fusion 2 - check

Reactor is a copy of an X dream - check

Still the one sided pick attachment puts me off BD for tooling. That said I would take the chance on the Ractor if the price was right not the Grivel at that price! 

Nope Fusion 2 was never a copy of Nomic. It was a new model of the original Fusion.  Fuel was tweaked Fusion 2 the be a bit more like Nomic (on Ice).

Reactor is pretty much 1 on 1 copy of X-Dream. The main difference between those, is that you can’t change the angle of the handle on Reactor. But then again, one less thing to break (Yes people have broken the bolts/handle on the X-Dream).

I would argue that first point and so did Dane Burns from back in the day (2011).

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/01/black-diamonds-fusion-2.html?m=1

well, angles and reach are hardy copying... you can pretty much stack all modern tools and have the same pick angle, reach and handle angle... infact we also did this at about the same time... Switch, Fusion 2 and Nomic do have about the same angles etc. Weight, weigh distribution and how things work are a completely different thing. So based on the point you make, is that if it looks like a duck, it must be a duck... while the other is cast of lead and the other is actually a duck...

But as said, while Fusion 2 aimed at the same market as Nomic, it wasn't a copy... hydroformed shaft made it considerable better for some stuff, but weight penalty meant that the swing was anything but good (on ice, especially with the Fusion or Laser picks).

How ever, X-Dream and Reactor have about the same weight and also about the same weight distribution... swing wise they felt the same (slightly better than Tech/Carbon Machines or what the Grivel offering was) and IMHO better than any of the Nomics.

But naturally they ain't the same thing, but I do believe they are about as close as you can get. I do see a pair of Reactors in my closet... to complement both Fusion generations... Naturally for me, it makes sense as I already use BD picks. So for those that start on a clean slate, X-Dream might end up being a better options, simply because they currently are cheaper. Harder to get spare picks though while on the move (than BD or Petzl).

Well imo axes that aren't copies:

Fusion 1, Nomic (all), Scud, Takoons (+new versions), Cryo, Force carbon, Aspeed, X-dream, Anchar2, anything by Austrialpine.

Axes that are copies:

Fusion 2, Switch, new Reactor, Svarog.. I'll let you guess. 

Maybe the Reactor is more like the Fusion 1 i dunno.

There are more but the top list shows innovation.

What is copy or not is difficult to say. This days it is really hard to make something new or radically different. I know Petzl made a small run of Nomics, 2nd generation, whit ergo type handle way before X dream ever came to market. Feed back was phenomenal but Petzl decided differently. Grivel is testing Dark machines for three years now and God knows what they experimented during this time.

Like these - homemade 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10217059523673528&set=a.1021177...

Cheers for all of your pretty detailed responses! Made for a good read! 

Just had a look at the Dark Machines. Could be a cool axe but I do wonder how they fare on a proper mixed. That sort of carbon shaft generally isnt a fan of impacts (or at least thats what I learnt in my studies ) and I'd rather not snap my axe mid ice pillar a day after having climbed a mixed route! Thoughts on that? Perhaps I'm being over-cautious?

Also has anyone used the Grivel Master Alloys? Again, outrageous price, but maybe all these axes can be found cheaper somewhere.

Otherwise generally seems the BD tools are lagging behind Cassin/Petzl a little in terms of climbing ice. Sadly never been able to climb with an X-dream, so will have to make that my mission in the next while.

Cheers

Michael

Oh and to those hoping to buy my nomic(s), I live in France, so don't want to faff with shipping!

I spotted this too, they are now very similar to the ergonomics. however I think the later are a little bit more aggressive. 

I was going to throw the eclimb Cryo 2 into the mix, but it looks like they're not making them anymore

The Nomics were just a copy of Quark Ergos.  

I saw something on the Simond website recently claiming the Scud was the first tool with an offset lower handle designed to be purely leashless. I'm trying to remember if they were the first I saw. I've got a feeling the (as then) Charlet Moser Quark Ergos were earlier.

I do think Scud takes the medal... Ergo's came out the following year (the ones with the orange plastic handdle).

And Simond revamped the Scuds a few years later and also renamed them.

The matrix alloys are really good including on ice with the thin pick. The handles are pretty poor though. Had to remove all the nubs so not to bruise my fingers. They also make your hands freeze.

Don't discount the Reactors, the x-dream's are pretty flexible in the handle so not very confidence inspiring, just don't know anyone who's used them. 

The handle on the reactor is horrible, especially when trying to use the upper grip. The shape of the bottom handle doesn’t allow for a comfy grip when using the upper grip. The swing didn’t seem outstanding either. 

To throw some real random into the mix, and seeing as you're eyeing the grivel CNC axes... The Kailas Entheos II is probably the sexiest looking CNC milled axe out there. Has the option for a hammer and removable pick weights. Lighter but slightly shorter than the Nomic and not as aggressive / crap on ice as the master alloys.

Only downsides is the serious cash and difficulty of getting spare parts.

I meant Master Alloy in the post above. Thaught they were very good on ice tbh.

That Kails axe looks pretty flexible. 

Exotic, how about the Octa Ice and dry axes. 

The Master Alloy is probably one of the best swinging ice tools I’ve used. Are you mistaking it for the Force Alloy, as they are very different animals? 

Also so when you put a mixed pic on the Master, it climbs mixed amazingly. Plus with it being CNC’d, it’s very durable and isn’t susceptible to wobbly heads or flexing etc. 

Also, on the i I’ve comments. The new Dark Machine range are alloy carbon composite. It’s an alloy tube wrapped in carbon, so it will be very durable. But I do understand people’s concerns on this. 

The Master is a good shout for an awesome all rounder that ticks most of the boxes. 

I hope this helps. Feel free to message me for more details on Grivel tools. 

Cheers. 

Greg

I'll take your word for all that. That part of the handle does look awkward but then so does the x-dreams

Is it still possible to get replacement picks for the masters Greg. The original ones will take some beating in ice. 

Yep. Don’t like the dreams to be honest. How’s the aspeeds ?

Not as good as the X-Dreams on ice

true dat... fiddled around with my friends Aspeeds with ice tuned ice pics... climbed like my gen1 Fusions...

You should try the ergonomics with pur ice picks in