UKC

There's been a bit of press about how much we consume and even some brands like Patagonia have had advertising slogans like 'Don't buy this jacket' to encourage us to think about what we buy and the impact it has on the planet.

The whole circus of new season advertising is designed to sell as much as possible. Better performance stats, sponsored atheletes, expedition reports, reviews, influencers and mega sales are all shifting new stock.

I look in my kit room and I have 5 waterproof shells. They all do different things..... or do they all do the same job, keep me dry whilst breathing sweat? Admittedly, a paclite is better for a hike in summer drizzle as opposed to a bomb shelter for winter, mixed climbing.

I've got friends who own huge amounts of dormant gear in rooms dedicated to the outdoors. I'm fortunate that as I work in the building trade, I can relegate older worn kit to site use and literally wear it out to the point of demolition.

I'm not sure what the answer is, the question I'm asking isn't clear to me yet. There are ways to recycle, freecycle and repair but something isn't sitting quite right with it all. What solutions have you found for gear at the back of the cupboard? Like me, is it time to have a look at what doesn't get used?

My two main priorities are buying second hand where possible, and repairing as much as possible. I do buy new when I need to, but always check eBay and facebook marketplace as a first port of call. 

For waterproofs I buy paramo and get them repaired until they really are done and then send them back for recycling.

I sympathise. It's a very complicated question.

Personally, I buy second hand and then wear to destruction. Sites like UKC help me choose wisely and find items that have multiple uses. Increasingly specialised clothing inevitably to too much clothing..?

All the best for the New Year.

Fantastic advice, I've bought and shifted gear second hand. Where and how do you send back waterproofs for recycling? Not seen that yet.

I'd be interested as well to hear how members do repairs, I've got repair patches all over some of my waterproofs. What keeps them lasting longer?

Moving to NZ for a year made me realize how much stuff I have that I don't need. 

When you have 23kg hold luggage you can't take a different jacket for walking, climbing, skiing ect. I took things that did a bit if everything pretty well and really it made so little difference to my performance or enjoyment of being outside. Now I'm back probably going to look at selling some of my old stuff because honestly, I didn't miss it. 

Whenever I see a nice jacket or thermal I ask myself what it does that the jacket/thermal I already have doesn't do.

I generally decide I don't need it.

Similarly to you I have a gear escalator - when I first get a new bit of kit its saved for the best/worst conditions, by which I mean the times when I really need it. After a while, as it gets more worn, it becomes a general bit of clothing which I'll wear to go to the shops, on short walks etc. Eventually it'll get added to my stash of work clothes and will end its life covered in grease and ripped to shreds while it keeps me warm and dry at the top of a wind turbine.

I buy second hand when I can, although with some items (eg soft goods for climbing) this isn't appropriate. I've also gravitated to buying more repairable clothes - I've become a paramo convert in the past couple of years mostly because I was sick of wearing out goretex jackets every year or two.

Personally I find the patagonia schtick pretty grating. They've built an empire out of selling man-made fibres and pfc coated gear and there isn't really any way their business model can be truly sustainable. Ultimately our entire economic system is based on unsustainable consumption and this uncomfortable fact is catching up with us fast.

My feeling is, with gear and all other consumables.......be really careful what you alllow in through the door.......it just piles up otherwise. Reusing, recycling etc really is a distant second best. Make sure you like it before you buy it so that you will wear it a lot.

Difficult to wear out a paramo? I've used mine a lot.......its been repaired, reproofed, but looks fine. 

Good post.

As a bit of encouragement to clear out the old kit and sell it, I sold a Mountain Equipment, winter sleeping bag on Ebay. I paid 50 quid for it in the bargin bin at the old factory shop in Glossop. I upgraded to a much lighter bag after about 5 years of heavy use and it sat in the kit room for a couple of years. After washing it, I sold it on ebay for £110. I wasn't trying to make a profit but whilst I'm chuffed I finished up £60 on a 7 year old bag, I'm much happier that it's back out in the hills getting used.

Seam Grip, Gorilla Tape and a needle and thread help keep the temptation to buy more kit at bay.

Paramo repair and recycle their gear. Not aware of similar schemes for goretex etc.

Isn't a new Paramo equivalent to a totally worn out proper waterproof?

I buy once, buy quality and keep it going til it falls apart. 

As far as my environmental impact goes, I'm much less damaging than folks who have regular long haul flights or are into other hobbies that are much worse for the planet. In the grand scheme of things, buying a new jacket (Which I'll wear instead of 'normal clothes' anyway!) Isn't that big an impact on the planet. Got to have clothes anyway.

We should all come to terms with the fact that, without door brands, we're just choosing a preferred petrochemical company. Buy decent first time and look after it is the best way to minimise our impact.

Anybody see that post on the UK ground conditions page on Facebook from Wesley Orvis? He offered a pair of almost new climbing ice axes for free! The condition was the recipient offered another piece of gear out there free of charge. It won't stop the planet burning up but the gesture was one done in great spirit.

I know you've got your tongue in your cheek, but to answer seriously: no, it's a completely different thing. I treat it like a soft shell that also keeps me mostly dry.

If you're out in properly wet conditions for hours nothing will keep you completely dry, but the only times I've been wet wearing paramo I've been with people wearing goretex who were wetter and more uncomfortable. And if you know you're going to be out for a long time in truly awful wet weather an old worn out gore-tex on top of a lightweight paramo jacket is an unbeatable combination.

They do, but what are you going to use during the 6 to 8 weeks it takes them to do it and return it to you?? if you want continuity you will need a second one!

I don't buy too much gear or clothing (until waiting until I am desperate), but the short-life of running shoes make me feel like Imelda Marcos. There are only so many pairs you can keep for walking the dog etc.

I do have a second one! How many of us really only have one waterproof? I have a winter weight and summer weight paramo. So I might not be very comfortable while it is being repaired, but I will cope. Having 2 prolongs the life of each so it's no worse environmentally if you still wear each until it is really done.

I've found Outdoor Gear Exchange on Facebook works really well too - I've sold dozens of bits and bobs there over the last couple of years and bought a few things too. I guess it is a bit less secure than ebay, but I just always describe as accurately as possible and no one has ever had a problem - I also think I don't ask nearly as much as many people do for used gear, so actually most people seem really happy. Quite a few things sell literally with in minutes of me posting the ad so I suspect I could ask more, but like you say - in many ways just knowing something that you hardly use or don't use at all is getting used once again is good.

In fact I've found that lots of people buying there do very thoughtful things like either pay friends and family on paypal so you don't get charged a fee for receiving the money, or in a couple cases they've added a quid or two to cover the paypal fees.

Yes, running shoes are ridiculous. Again, I buy second hand with those too. I think I have only bought one new pair in the last 3 years. They are one of the easiest second hand purchases.

I downgrade the holey ones to local short runs and keep the better ones for my bigger runs. My local woods are easy enough that well worn soles or uppers which are loose due to holes are ok. 

I'm trying to avoid things that are very lightweight. 

I'm not an elite outdoor athelet, realistically the thing usually holding me back is my own skill/fitness/commitment rather than the fact that my gear is x% heavier than the latest super lightweight thing. 

I'm trying to get things that are going to last longer, even if they weigh a bit more. 

Having different versions of an item of clothing makes perfect sense and isn't wasteful; if you have 5 waterproofs and use them all they will all last 5 times as long as having just one and you have all the benefits of versatility.

You don't need to be in the building trade, just downgrade clothing use as it gets old, so a waterproof used initially for serious mountaineering might get downgraded to winter walking, then summer walking, then going to the wall or the shops.

My wall rucksack was my new state of the art climbing sack in 1988. Until it completely disintegrated last year, my indoors Ratho belay jacket was the one I was given for Christmas in 1981 and initially used for serious winter and alpine climbing for about 15 years. 

Edit: I also buy a lot of stuff second hand off people on UKC. I have about 10 pairs of Anasazis stockpiled which I've bought off people who bought them too small! 

Got to admit I have a stockpile of rucksacks, found a back system that really works for me and have got 4 of the same (now discontinued) back system sacks in the loft bought barely used from eBay, should last me for the next 20 years I'm hoping.

Been looking at sales for the last few days but decided the only thing I actually need is a new pair of boots.

It might seem off topic. I just completed a guitar 30 day challenge. Restricted to one guitar, one amp, no pedals. It’s been a revelation. I don’t need all the others, just a Telecaster and a valve amp. All the other stuff turns out to be ‘stuff’.

I haven't found any solutions unfortunately, except perhaps wearing things as long as possible. I'm not into fashion so there is little chance I'll buy the latest stuff(even without considering the sometimes eye watering price). As long as a garment does the job I'm not too bother what it looks like.

A while a go I thought it was great that plastic water bottles could be recycled into fleece, but then found out that fleece shed loads of micro fibres when washed.

Using 'fleeces' with a greater wool content might help but they take more looking after and are expensive.

I don't have a solution.

Dave

This is an example of what has always been wrong with middle/upper class sport.

If you can afford to identify with this as an issue then you may be past helping.

solution- Give most of your gear away to people who really really need it.

you will be left with exactly what you need to be safe and efficient at the sport you enjoy.

* If you do have any left over cash please donate to Urban Uprising so the next generation of less well off folks get a go at a fantastic sport.

You can wash fleeces etc in Guppy bags (still plastic right enough!). It catches the microfibers for you.

I buy loads of merino wool, but some things are better in synthetic fabric. Then there's the dilemma of is it better to buy a plastic fleece second hand or a new merino top?? 

The outdoor gear advertising agencies have got it down to a fine art.

Of course you need it!

A pal of mine remarked that there are lots of dabblers out there and that I should look up eBay. It's been a highly successful move.👍🏻

As for Paramo, have had several items repaired. Great service. I've yet to try the recycling option. I take my gear to beyond destruction, I'm a a scruffy old git......

Speak for yourself, I just waer mine till it falls apart. I've got fleece gear thats thirty years old and still good.

This is a good idea. We have a few much younger friends starting out in the outdoors and much of our older, heavier kit we have passed on to get them up and running. It was great to see one of them using an old 65l Blacks backpack and a Vango tent on his travels abroad, much better than it being stuck in our loft.

Some of us have a larger collection of kit as we dip into a few variants of our sports. My climbing goes from local bouldering to winter wild camping in mountain tops for days to seige an area. Some ski, we kayak and all the rest of it that develops from simple hiking. Our take on the kit is if we don't wear it out through use then it must be either sold or passed on.

Theres a couple of articles related to this thread in the latest edition of La Montagne et Alpinisme (the French alpine club's magazine), some extracts on line at

https://www.ffcam.fr/la-montagne-et-alpinisme.html

Well I'll agree:- If you not going to be another Jan Ackerman, well what's the point. You'll never get to his level...   :-}

PS you can kick me later.

Well I haven't bought anything new for ages except footwear to replace worn out shoes. Trainer soles wear so quickly . Got two hardshells, both now 10+ years old and doing fine. Three 'belay' jackets: my dog walking/ climbing wall one which has daily wear and was 2nd hand off UKC, my main hillwalking one (about 10 yrs old) and my back up one that gets stuffed as an emergency jacket (about 5 yrs old)

An easy method of resisting temptation is to be aware that the money you spend could go to a charity that you really want to support. So I ask myself, do I need it and if the answer is 'no' but I am still drawn to it, I think, don't buy it, give more £xx to the local dog rescue shelter / save the Borneo snail / world land trust / food bank etc. and you replace that consumer buzz with a 'Yeah! Another acre of land under protection or more food for hungry dogs or clothing for refugees etc.' It usually works for me. Don't let things own you! 

Look back at the kit you have actually worn out. It was either:

Poor quality

Unfit for purpose (running waterproof used for mixed climbing) 

Or worth replacing like for like. 

I would put buffalo pullovers in cat3 but they take a long time to wear out. 

You could at least have referenced Alan Holdsworth or Steve Vai rather than some hack ;-)

We have loads, admittedly a fair bit needs to be binned now.

But I am currently filling a box to be taken to the alpkit store at some point for their continuum process.

Beyond that stuff now gets fixed as much as possible and replacements only happen when stuff is properly dead.

as others have said, nothing wrong with owning 5 different jackets if you use them all for the purpose they are designed for. i will go 1 further than another poster, they wont just last 5 times longer than 1 jacket, they will last more like 10 times longer as you are only using them for thier intended use, not wearing them out needlessly.

The problem is people who buy the new season jacket just because it is a new colour or whatever, but i dont know anybody who treats outdoor gear like fashion and i dobt any of you do either! so those people are few and very far between (and probably only buy North Farce).

the thing that annoys me with outdoor brands, even the most environmentally proud ones, is that they package that brand new 100% recycled product you are going to buy in multiple layers of plastic bags! i have just brought some new boardshorts which are supposedly made out of tyres or whatever, and each item comes individually wrapped in an unesesarily large plastic bag, and then the whole package is wrapped in more plastic bags.

From what has been posted so far it seems everybody is using to end of life and repairing where possible, wonderful!

I have 2 people in my circle of friends who I'd say are borderline addicted to bargin hunting in the factory shops and discounters. They will hoover up anything with a big discount on it and one in particular has a large top floor literally full of boxes all full of kit, much of it unused. The retail buzz is a funny thing, the geeky love of kit can be a bigger pull than the actual outdoors. Personally I've little interest in kit until I need to replace something.

I wonder if any of our fine members here fall into that bracket of kit collectors. I'd be interested to hear their thoughts on our discussion but I doubt any would comment for fear of the perceived backlash. Shame.

It's complicated I think. Every year 'outdoor' companies become more and more like Nike etc with scale and style of production, with climbers etc becoming an ever smaller part of the buying market. Patagonia, Montane, OR and others derive much of their profit from military production now so expecting the recreational consumers to pick up the emotional tab re environmental concerns is no more than marketing.

Folks finding five different demands for five different jackets must do a lot of climbing. I personally have a single shell jacket I rarely wear. Having moved a few times recently I've culled a bit, down to half a cupboard's worth and don't feel anything is missing (and I only climb in winter). I buy when something substantially works better, but that's rare. Gloves are probably something I turn over most as they seem to have real development going on, and I occasionally drop one.

Keep buying the stuff and they will keep making it, same as anything.

What's their address? Asking for a friend.

The stuff in there is obscene. A down suit for high alt mountains and a tent that you would put up in an arctic storm. I'll pass on your details.

That certainly wasn't the case with my latest RAB purchase. It came in very, very obviously non-plastic eco packaging.

However, I was slightly suspicious whether it was genuinely lower impact not.

I'm never entirely sure whether using four times the weight of paper/cardboard rather than plastic is actually more environmentally sound or just greenwashing and a PR stunt. 

Sorry...

Or John Williams, or Albert Lee, or John Etheridge?

But I love Focus

I find Steve Vai's tone a bit harsh...

I agree with your sentiments, and practiced them before ecology was part of it, as, like others, we all have garments which are favourites. So I am contemplating getting a slim fleece top, made by Ultimate(and bought for about £11 from a Corah's factory in 1984 or 1985), a replacement zip for possiby the third time, along with replacement cuffs.

The one area that I'm bad at, is buying boots, as I find it really hard to find ones that fit, due to long, slim, shallow feet, with bunyans. The problem getting blisters/ulcers on the edge of the latter or on my sole if the boots don't fit really well. Consequently, I have 3-4 pairs of boots that I ought to resell, but it is getting round to photographing etc.

Rucksack-wise people actually complain at the vaguely faded pink appearance of my once red Mountain Equipment Diamond 50+ bag, that I've had for, I think 20 years+, and it is still good for ice-climbing trips(what are they?).

I work for an outdoor retailer so the temptation here is much higher because everything costs around 60% less. 

However I quickly realised that each bit of kit that you buy is money gone that could pay for climbing trips or working less/climbing more. I tend to remind myself of that on a regular basis and it kills the new-kit lust straight away. A few weeks in the Verdon is far better than an Arc'teryx jacket!

I do think a lot of the time people buy new kit because they can't free up the time to go on trips or go climbing/outdoorsing more in general - it scratches the itch a little bit to think that the next time you get out, it'll be in a shiny new jacket.

The point I was trying to make was-

People without the financial means do not have the luxury of thinking about the environmental impact.

if you buy your clothes at Aldi or Lidl you ain’t going to spend £100 on climbing shoes or even £30 on lesser brands or second hand. 
imagine splurging £10 entry fee to your average boulder wall when that might feed you for a few days or get a token for the electric meter.

Did it come like that direct from rab, or from a shop? i have worked in an outdoor shop, and we recieved all our stock from every brand individually wrapped in miles and miles of plastic!

maybe things have changed in the couple of years since i left, but im pretty sure everything comes out of the warehouses plastic wrapped. it may then be unwrapped and posted to you in something more eco friendly...

A few years ago I fell into the murky world of MYOG (Make Your Own Gear) and now have a bivvy bag, tarp and rucksack made by my own fair hand on a battered old Singer sewing machine.  I really enjoy the product design and 'crafting' aspect but the best thing is the feeling of satisfaction that comes from using something you have made yourself.  I think that is something which has been completely lost in the modern era of consumerism and I don't think I'll ever buy another outdoor item made of fabric again.  I don't know if making your own kit is any less harmful on the environment but it certainly makes you consider what you really need - rather than what you can afford.

I also sew and have looked at making my own gear but I can never find the fabrics I want. Do you upcycle old gear to get the right fabrics or do you have a good supply somewhere?

i'll drop you a message to avoid boring everyone else on the forum!

That sounds a lot more useful and interesting than the usual forum arguing to be honest.

This is a dangerous thread to make on UKC which we have to accept will always be funded by our consumerism in one form or another. Definitely you need two sets of quickdraws, 3 headtorches, a dozen jackets, a hoody that is 'spf 30', a super-light pair of approach shoes that will last about a week but hey, they were really light for that one week.

There's an inherent bias towards light weight vs robustness. You can weigh a jacket on scales whereas you're not going to get a sense of how a jacket it going to be after it's 10th wash because next week you'll have another one to review.

£100+ for a pair of jeggings that you can also wear to the pub? Sure, once it's got a hole in the knee I suppose it's not good enough for the pub anymore so it'll be thrown away as it no longer saves you the time of changing your trousers. Patches and repairs are not chic. 

£20 for a few ounces of chalk, don't let anyone tell you it's a chemical formula and there's no reason (aside from marketing) that it's so much more expensive. More expensive is more good and I'm definitely sure it helped that climber finish his project, or maybe it was something else. Nevermind.

I've bought into most of this stuff before and I've been a victim of a lot of the marketing. The truth is, you don't need all that much to be perfectly comfortable throughout most seasons in the UK. An ordinary T-shirt and a cheap fleece will get you through most days climbing, plus if you're decadent, perhaps a waterproof for the walk back to the car when it starts raining. Winter is different, but you can still make use of that fleece. 

I will use things and repair them again and again until they have completely died on me. like many of you I have a system of rotation and steadily using older / more beat up gear for different tasks. I don't bin anything unless it's got a dozens holes in it and the fabric has become so weak it cannot sustain a patch, until my resoled shoes are completely deformed.

In practice, this means I don't bin much and I don't buy a lot at all in a sort of unintentional 'one in, one out' policy. I could buy more second hand gear when I do buy though and there are lots of cheap barely worn stuff out there, which to be fair gets snapped up fairly quickly on here. 

Wearing out gear is a badge of honour, and I enjoy seeing retro / patched up stuff at the crag. 

Totally agree, far more borish content than that on UKC! 

Hah, not sure Mrs Smith would agree it's a "useful or interesting" hobby, but it certainly passes a lot of time in lockdown!  

That's interesting as I've seen some home made stuff on the ultralight forums and some of these very local startups. I've a Montane Prism jacket that's coming to the end of its life and I did wonder if I could strip out the syth insulation and do something with it. I understand the syth insulation does degrade over time but it does seem wrong just binning it.

I'm sure you could repurpose it as something - not sure what though! I get a lot of ideas and help from www.reddit.com/r/myog/ (lots of Americans who are seriously into ultralight) so you could ask for some inspiration there. An old foam camping mat and some cycling leggings ended life as part of my rucksack so it can be a good way to reuse redundant kit.

Which is fine if you're going to use them before they die of old age. I've just spent a month clearing out my dad's loft and a lot of old (30yr+) plastic & synthetic fabric items are no longer serviceable - rubbery bits have perished, flexy bits have gone brittle, coatings have gone sticky etc.

The problem with many bits of waterproof outdoor clothing is the breathable fabrics delaminate if multilayer, or turn to little flakes if there's no inner face fabric and there's no way to fix that. There's little point in a waterproof jacket that's not waterproof. Mine go in the clothes recycling bins as they add levels to the recycling hierachy. Same with old trainers, much demand for those in third world countries.  when I finished a trip to South Africa I gave my army boots which had dried out and started leaking at the stitch holes to the gardener at the place we stayed at.  He said they were the best tip he'd ever had from a customer and was genuinely overjoyed. They were no use to me for use in the wet UK, but ideal for him in sunny SA.

The problem with worn running shoes is that, unless you use barefoot-style shoes i.e. basically expensive PE plimsolls, the collapsing of the supporting foam will cause your foot to roll the wrong way and as such can cause injury.  It won't be an issue for everyone, but it will for many.  Generally this happens before you actually get holes in the uppers, unless you like running through bracken and thorn plants.

That being the case, if you do use supportive shoes (as most people do), the only time to buy second hand is around February-March time, when people have bought them for a failed new year's resolution and so are basically actually new.

Barefoot style shoes are different because there isn't any supporting foam - you can wear them until they have worn away to a useless extent - but again they won't suit everyone.

If using old running shoes for running (rather than just gardening, DIY or something) works for you, that's cool, but I'd be careful of advising it without the above caveats, because tendon issues around the feet can cause people to end up off running for months or longer.

Is there really that much of an issue with this?  If you were replacing a jacket every year so you got the latest fashion and throwing away a perfectly good one, that would be rampant consumerism, sure (though that issue is essentially removed if you sell second hand or give away instead of binning it, because that way it continues in use, just like a car does, say, and the person who buys it hasn't bought a new one as a result).  But if you have 5 quality jackets, they will last 5 times as long if you only wear each 1/5 of the time.  That is, mostly, you'll either buy one jacket that lasts you 10 years, or you'll buy 5 jackets that last you 50 years, either way you've still bought 5 jackets in that 50 year period, if you see what I mean.

The main issue is probably with buying cheap kit, which uses the same amount of materials but doesn't last.  Or fashion kit that is only designed to last a year but isn't cheap!

Basically, the problem is when something ends up in the bin when it could be repaired or re-used.

When my wife gets in from work, I'm going to suggest to her that changing items of clothing more than every 50 years or so represents rampant consumerism.  I'll let you know how I get on.  If I don't post back by tomorrow morning then I'd be grateful if you'd alert the relevant competent authorities.

To be fair the fashion industry (of replacing clothing every year that isn't worn out, e.g. a new winter coat every year) is pretty much the definition of rampant consumerism!

During lockdown and on climbing trips, changing my underpants once a week or so seems pretty reasonable to me, but 50 years would be taking it a bit far - the only time I've gone a month they were past keeping or recycling.

So what happens when we all stop buying things due to the latest UKC outrage and all the gear companies go bust or have no money to invest in developing better products? 

You are right that we know lots of things 'we mustn't do', but stopping will have consequences. What economic structures and ways of living should we choose? I don't think that has really been sorted out in many peoples minds – certainly not in mine and I suspect many others on here also live contradictory and hypocritical lives. Air travel may be reduced by COVID - an obvious one to avoid, but what is worse buying a new jacket a year or 10,000 miles a year in an old diesel van 'just' to get to the hills?

An interesting response. And one that touches on the bigger elephant in the room. The question of whether outdoor pursuits in general are really just environmentally damaging consumerist pursuits that are just wrapped up in a hypocritical natural veneer. With all the expensive gear and clothing, travelling long and short distances by car or van or aeroplane, physical impact of use and erosion on wild places, and disturbance of the balance of local ecosystems and communities.

I mean driving to partake in something as simple as a walk is seen as not only necessary, but almost a God given right. See all the complaints at not being allowed to do so under the current covid restrictions.

Not sure where any of the answers actually lie, but I do wonder about the whole thing sometimes.

I like Patagonia gear, both specialist stuff and leisure wear, I don’t buy it often as it generally lasts and they have repaired a couple of bits for me. I’m also happy to use old gear if it still functions. The chest pocket zip on my R1 Hoody unglued itself from the rest of the top, but it is still a great bit of kit regardless, even after 12 years of regular use.

However, I am currently wearing a Patagonia t-shirt that I bought in Chamonix in 2003, it looks fairly worn, but I should get a few more years of regular use out of it. I own another Patagonia t-shirt that I bought in 2018 is already showing signs of wear and I am pretty certain I won’t still be wearing it in 2035.

I think you have a difference there between "outdoor gear" e.g. a waterproof jacket, and "fashion wear" which is simply selling the brand.  Patagonia T-shirts are fashion wear, they don't serve a purpose beyond any other T-shirt.

Thanks for not making me feel I was going too much out on a limb. We are consumers in almost everything we do.

I made a pretty clear distinction between “specialist stuff” i.e. technical outdoor clothing such as the R1 Hoody mentioned and “leisure wear” t-shirts and such like. The tale of the t-shirt is an example of a different experiences with products from an outdoor producer known an celebrated for their environmental record.

I’ll add that I’ve probably spent more days climbing in that original Patagonia t-shirt than any other single piece of clothing since I bought it. For Summer cragging and often Spring and Autumn, a cotton t-shirt is great. I appreciate that I am paying a fashion premium for Patagonia, but hope also to be paying a quality and environmental premium as well. I also know that Patagonia is more fashionable amongst the general population than it was 17 years ago. I suspect that more ethical production methods result in a less durable product in this case, rather than a cynical exploitation of the brands popularity.

The bottom line is, the more stuff we buy, the more we pollute. Outdoor gear is made of plastic and the chemicals used in those processes are bad for the earth as well as the end of life problem of getting rid of it.

I noticed Salewa are really pushing their Tyrol wool products as a great eco alternative to syth insulators. Will we take on the extra weight?

Look how many people are going outdoors now, so much more than when I started in the 80's. I wonder if nature could come up with a way of levelling the human population?......

I noticed on the primaloft website that one of their new materials "primaloft bio" is biodegradable. Maybe this is a hopeful trend? Although I'm pretty sure some of the jackets I still wear regularly would have rotted away by now if they were biodegradable...

Interesting stuff. After your post I just had a wander onto their website and I don't think I've seen a company pushing the whole green eco thing quite so full on. There's a slogan telling me they are 'relentlessly responsible' (<trademarked), green grass shooting on an embedded vid, the first tab is about recycling and then the bio product and so on. I can't find anything on the site about product performance.

This tells us more about what the consumer wants than anything else.

I recycle as much as possible, largely buy my [non-climbing] clothes second-hand and eat vegan to keep my carbon footprint low. However, having worked in the private jet industry for a number of years and seen the amount of unnecessary trips taken by the rich (including a prominent F1 driver having his dog flown out to him by private jet), I am really not going to feel bad when I buy a new Pro shell in the new year. A GTX jacket will still be useful in a few years time; the charred remains of a trench coat will not:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44885983

Funny you say that, I used to scoff at charity shops until I got married. My wife came back with a pair of La Sportiva Tarantulas for £3 and a copy of the rockfax Pembroke guide for 50p. That wiped the smug look of my face! Interestingly the Pemb guide had Niall Grimes name in the front, not sure why he had let that go.

One possible answer,(and no, it’s not easy);

Stop
Buying 
Stuff

Every time you get the urge to spend money on any outdoorsy item, ask yourself if you can do without it for another week. Repeat.

At some point, you will weaken, but I predict your overall volume of stuff purchased will fall. 

Why isn't that easy? who wants to spend money on stuff they don't need?

Looking at society I'd say the answer is a lot of people.

It's the way our economy is set up to function, it's not sustainable but that's not stopping anyone at the moment.

Not sure what the answer is, from a very young age we're bombarded with the notion success is owning material possessions.

I wonder if as a species we'll manage to wipe ourselves out before we hit an outside context problem but that's probably a much larger discussion around ever expanding growth of population and consumption (if everyone in the world used resources at the rate we do in the west then there will be a major shortage of resources very quickly - the aim must be to bring everyone's quality of life up to a high standard while reducing the consumption of resources)

Like that Corona virus thingy... I'm not seeing much traction around the idea of it as a good thing to reduce population?

Seriously? you want to quote me but cut it off in the middle of a sentence so you can make your point while missing mine?

Direct from RAB. 

To also be fair to my (much) better half, the belay jacket she uses most times we go out (at least twice a week) is more than 20 years old, and still going strong.  

Imagine getting into winter walking.  You need a pack, crampons, ice axe, first aid kit, waterproof shell, winter boots, ice axe, emergency shelter etc.  Easiest way to own those things is to buy them.

You start bouldering indoors.  After hiring shoes for a while, you buy your first pair.  And a chalk bag and a brush.  You try outside and buy a crash pad and some guidebooks.  Then a trad rack, pack, harness, ropes etc.  Then maybe some stiffer shoes for long routes and downturned shoes for steep stuff.  Easiest way to own those things is to buy them.

Surely it’s ok to buy something that you need*, if you don’t already have it?

*obviously the definition of need is debate-able.  Do we really need to get out into the hills in winter, or climb, or run, or mountain bike?  Even while sitting at home - maybe with the tv on, the heating on, the lights on - we’re consuming resources.

I’m just playing Devil’s advocate here.  I believe we should repair more, pass on pre-used stuff to others, demand longer lasting product, travel less and so on.  

But not buying at all is not an option for all of us, all of the time.

I've missed Kendal Mountain Festival this year... lots of older right-on folk wearing new looking expensive performance kit for a festival. There is a tinge of hypocrisy to the likes of Patagonia but they do encourage repair and reuse and are at least trying  to avoid suppliers running exploitative and polluting production units in the third world. If only all outdoor clothing companies tried that hard.

At an Alpkit festival a few years ago I heard an inspirational talk that pointed out that cheap disposable fashion is a far more serious problem than first world worrying about plastic microfibre pollution from a good quality fleece (just wash the fleece rarely!). The main ocean plastic pollutants are tyre rubber, paint (marine paint being a particular problem) and micro-beads. It's not just plastic, 'big cotton' is destroying environments... production of it has 'drank' most of the Aral Sea. At the top of the globalised  'food chains' we often have big western companies nearly all utilising supply and disposal chains for their stuff, that often start and end in 3rd world exploitation and environmental degradation and sometimes worse (destruction, poison and deaths).

It's good people do their bit (support local production, buy less stuff, wear it to death and recycle) but current globalised production systems are unsustainable and people need to look at applying urgent political pressure on that.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/sustainable-fashion-blog/2014/oct/01/cotton-production-linked-to-images-of-the-dried-up-aral-sea-basin

This isn't necessarily a terrible thing.  If you buy a top-of-the-range Arcteryx or Mammut Gore-Tex jacket and wear it around the place as a sort of fashion item, you'll get something like 20+ years out of it.  That will cause far, far less waste plastic than buying a new plastic raincoat each year.  If you do want to follow fashion and buy one each year, if you sell the old one second hand it will continue in use - no waste.

I did get about 20 years out of my first Berghaus Gore Tex jacket I bought when I was 15, which was worn daily in winter for a good number of years plus on the hills.  That cost £230 back then, probably the equivalent of £600+ now, so they were more premium in line with the likes of Arcteryx and Mammut back then, whereas now they're still around the £200 mark so quality has declined markedly.

Why not wear the leaky old gortex, gaffer patched down and the worn out approach shoes. Why do so many feel the need to put on an expensive fashion show of latest kit?

Does it matter, as long as it doesn't go in the bin before its time?  Though "leaky Gore-Tex" serves no purpose, and if it can't be repaired/reproofed to a useful extent then it probably is time for the bin.

The problem with outdoor type gear comes when you throw things away, not when you buy them.

So somebody has got to wear then when they are old, tatty and pretty knackered; a jacket spends more time old and tatty than shiny and new, so the more people prepared to wear old, tatty stuff the better

I think a much better test is whether spending money on something is going to make you a happier. Ask yourself and try to answer this question honestly and you will buy much less stuff unnecessarily (and, hopefully, be happier). 

It matters because next year is too often the latest in outdoor fashion and not the well kept older jacket. 

Spot on. Festivals could even promote this. Encouraging use of older kit.

Though it's fairly pointless wearing a jacket that leaks (unless just as a windproof) or worse a pair of collapsed running shoes for running rather than just gardening or something (that may cause injury, because collapsed foam can mean you pronate the wrong way far worse than if you were completely barefoot).

There's a fairly big difference between "not the current trend" and "degraded to the point of useless".  For example a badly pilled fleece will still keep you warm, but a leaky Gore-Tex waterproof won't keep you dry.

Some people do like wearing old, ragged clothes, which is fine as it's a sort of fashion in its own right - but like with those who prefer to drive an older used car, someone has to be buying the new ones for them to have the old ones available for them to buy used, of course.  Clothing doesn't last forever, and I really don't think outdoors people are the worst for it - throwaway fashion like Primani is really the pits in this regard as nothing they sell is designed to last more than a season, but it uses as much material as something better made.

Sadly I think the vast majority of casual clothing falls into this category these days. I've been reflecting a lot on this lately; I'd never really thought about just how much shit our society generates by default. I came to the conclusion that in many respects, we need to regress a few decades to a time when it was common to wear the same work shirt six days in a row...

Regarding leaky waterproofs, I've found the best solution to that is often to not bother with waterproofs...

Not sure about that, as you could own three and wash them (which you probably would your vests under your shirt back then, else you'd have stunk), you don't need loads.

Perhaps what we more need to do is to be willing to save to buy a quality waterproof which will last longer rather than buy a cheap one every year, or buy used if we can't afford new.  But I think climbers are rather better at that than others - the sport does seem to attract frugality.

Yes, sorry, I mean the general concept rather than specifically trying to get by with one shirt. Buy quality clothing, look after it, repair it when needed and it'll probably last until you change shape too drastically for it to fit.

I think the concept applies more widely than clothing too. Do we really need to shower every day with scented chemicals, for example?

It's nothing like pointless wearing an old gortex that leaks slightly for short walks outdoors between nearby indoor venues. Some people get away with just a fleece outer at KMF.

There is also a big difference between shoes so damaged they hurt your feet and functional but scruffy.

I agree with your points on Primark culture to an extent but 'posh' fashion is worse...at least Primark clothes are designed for regular use. The real issue is avoiding becoming fashion victims and constantly buying new stuff we rarely use.

Absolutely fine for just going to work or the shops when  a little damp is not a matter of life or death.

Leaky gore-tex jackets etc can at least be used in the garden etc, where getting wet is less of an issue, even when it's useful life on the hill is done. A friend of mine converted an old one into a bumbag,

The problem is distinguishing between wants and needs. I need a pair of climbing shoes to climb. But do I need a second, more specialised pair for indoor...and then a third pair for bouldering...and then a fourth pair for long trad climbs....there is a huge industry out there which works to persuade you that your desires are really needs, and so you should buy, buy, buy.

So all I was really suggesting was that the next time you see that “must-have” purchase you delay for a while. In many cases, you may find that the “need” is really just a “want”. And as adults, we can choose.

Isn't it the same for every sport and pass time. We recently got into sea kayaking and that's opened up another pile of kit. We have a few dry bags but it turns out there are marine grade bags that are better in salt water and abrasion. Then we find out there are various types of gloves and paddles, compasses that bolt onto the hull and all the rest of it.

If I went to one of the big retailers like Go Outdoors and bought one of every item type, I wonder if I would be able to carry it? Part of this discussion is around marketting and some of it is the way gear is designed, it's all so specific for the variations of single activities.

I'm just glad we use all of our gear.

True, but they aren't much use for walking around town (as was mentioned), because either it's raining so you want to wear a waterproof and stay dry, or it's not raining so you probably want to wear something else.

But what this misses is that if you buy 4 pairs of climbing shoes and use them in serial, with everything else equal, you will get the same period of "having a pair of usable climbing shoes" as you will if you buy 4 pairs of climbing shoes and use them in parallel, because you will only be wearing each 1/4 of the time (or whatever).

If one pair of shoes lasts one year's worth of the level of climbing you do, say, you still have climbing shoes for 4 years, regardless of whether you buy 4 pairs at the start and use them each 1/4 of the time, or if you buy a pair per year.

This is only an actual problem if you throw stuff away when it still has usable life in it, which has absolutely nothing to do with how many actual pairs you have "on the go" at once.

And if you do want to keep getting new stuff when it hasn't worn out, if instead of binning it you sell it used or give it away, there's no problem there either.  Indeed, it helps those who can't afford the gear new.

The problem, as I said, occurs with genuine frivolities that never needed to be made at all (I'm struggling to think of any of those in my outdoor gear) or things with designed obsolescence (I'm thinking Primani clothes here), or throwing things in the bin when they're not broken.

I like Marie Kondo's question whether a possession "sparks joy", as a criteria for whether I buy or keep it.  In this context joy comes from perfect fit, a look I like, meeting a clear need and features which reflect that.  

The danger is accumulating a mass of things (for me, often because they're a "bargain" purchase) which don't spark joy and then don't then get used enough to justify themselves.  The accumulated piles of stuff then, ironically, cause anxiety.

I review my outdoor kit regularly (esp when purchasing again), ask whether I use, need or like each item.  If no it goes to Ebay or charity shop.

Like others I repair, and have taught those skills.

That said, my focus from 2021 will be flying much less, which will I think have a greater environmental impact than buying less kit.  Significantly reducing red meat eaten is my stretch goal...

I think you’re looking at it from a binary view. 
 

The advertising does several things. It’s not necessarily trying to get you to buy, but also promoting brand awareness and trying to get the producer a greater market share of a fairly small market. 
 

Most people will buy new when the old one breaks or wears out and will look around and search for kit that’s as good as or better than they had before. Or at least priced at what they can afford. That’s where most advertising will be aimed. 
 

Competitive people will sometimes fall for the ‘This will make you faster, higher, better.’ and will ditch kit that they see is superseded, regardless of whether it’s still usable. These are ‘early adopters’ and are in mainly a minority. Particular targeted advertising will be aimed at them.

I have running club mates that are always buying the newest shoes and watches and shifting the old ones on, but more of the members are eeking shoes out and buying end of range kit. My shoes are unusable after 700miles. It’s not the holes, it’s the soles that eventually become unsupportive and my knees start to feel it. 

What's notable about them is that while they are wasting their money to some extent, them doing that isn't a problem at all provided they sell or give away the old kit and so it remains in use and doesn't go in the bin.  If someone buys the year-old Arcteryx, they've then not bought a new Berghaus (say), so no more kit has entered the market than otherwise would, and no more kit has gone in the bin.

The only way you should wear the soles out on running shoes is if you use minimalist shoes with no padding.  Any shoe with padding will collapse that before the sole wears out, and if you run in shoes with collapsed padding it will make your feet pronate wrongly, potentially causing injury that could cause you major issues long-term, not just slightly iffy knees.

If you're big on sustainability and want to be able to wear running shoes out properly, and don't have a secondary use for ones with worn padding that isn't running (e.g. wearing them for gardening or something), then you should probably look at training yourself for minimalist style shoes (but do that slowly, as doing it too quick is as bad for injuring people as wearing worn out supportive shoes).

On the other hand, I wonder how much kit and equipment gets bought and never used?

I’ve done 700 miles on my current pair. The padding is fine. No sign of damage. The sole however lost most of its bounce after 100 or so miles, that’s the way I like them, and only now is losing its rigidity and last of its cushioning. I’m very light on my feet. 
Keeping a pair for gardening is ok and wise second use. But I don’t get through a pair of gardening shoes/dog walking shoes every six months. 

GPS units. While the ETrex and my old forerunner FR60 watch worked fine. Once the Forerunners began having GPS with the 220, the ETrex was only useful to give co-ordinates as it didn’t save speed info, or for long days as the batteries lasted longer than 4hours. Then came the advent of the 235, which shows co-ordinates and can charge on the go but lasts several hours and syncs to my phone via Bluetooth. Which meant an upgrade of the phone for the 220.

Not so much built in obsolescence but more the march of technology.  
 

I gave the ETrex units to my local scout troop and sold my 220 on here to someone looking for a starter watch. Otherwise they would have been recycled in the WEE bin as no resale value at all. My FR60 is still in a drawer next to my Casio F91W.

The Garmin FR60 is an odd thing, I believe it was released in 2009, 6 years after the 101 which was a GPS watch and several years after the 205 and 305 which seemed ubiquitous at around that time and had the improved SiRFstarIII GPS receiver chip.

GPS in watches was very expensive back then. The FR60 worked off a foot pod and was extremely accurate. 

I bought an FR205 in 2010, I can’t remember what I paid for it, but it won’t have been a fortune (less than (£200).

That's what eBay is for.

Back in 2009 I was still just running 5k round the block 3 times a week and hillwalking. Anything more than £50 would have been expensive to me. Was only looking for something that did heart rate and speed.