UKC

I had a weird experience in Outside recently - I went in to replace my aging rack (now I have some money) and was told I couldn't have a discount as a BMC member, or because of the amount.

I thought I'd buy a magazine instead and was told that there were probably some out the back, but that the box hadn't been opened yet - and recommended that I come back in two hours.

I went down the road to Hitch N Hike near Hope http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/ and spent £1200 - I'll need to replace my ice rack this winter too; guess where I'll be going.

The sad thing is I've shopped in Outside for fifteen years or so and they've always been very good, but I guess when they got big they stopped needing customers like me any more.

Peace
ml

In reply to Mountain Lass:
Last I heard Outside were not doing discount full stop, as their goods were all ready at discount.

In reply to Duncan Bourne: Ive never seen any evidence of it.

In reply to wayno265:

Agreed, it doesn't seem very discount at all.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Yes. That's what I heard too. Surprised there's no discount for spending over a grand in one go though.

I wonder whether it would have cost less than £1200 at Outside for the same gear!

In reply to wayno265:
I was quoting the staff member who replied thus

One price comparison:

Technical Friend Set 0.5, 1.5 & 2.5 - £120 at Outside and £150 at HnH. Singly tech friends seem the same price. I didn't compare any others.

Six or seven years ago when I was building a rack these sets were £80.

I think they are both good shops.

In reply to Mountain Lass:
If you want to save money, you simply have to shop around. When I bought my biggest lot of gear at once (several hundred quid) it came from 5 or 6 different shops. They all have deals on differetn things.

By the way a few years ago Outide used to do 5% for individal BMC members (ratehr than the usual 10%), but 10% for bmc-affiliated club members. Not sure when this stopped.

In reply to portlandclimber:

I've always found the staff very happy to help and generally cheerful actually. A couple of times i've been in there waiting for the train, just flicking through guidebooks or the new routes book, and ended up nearly missing me train, because i was having a conversation with one of the various mambers of staff.

In reply to Mountain Lass: Don't forget that the owner has a large yacht to maintain! I do not understand their policy of no discount. I too have shopped there for years and had local club/bmc discount. Now I tend to go elsewhere. It seems short-sighted to me, but there it is

In reply to Mountain Lass: Maybe losing 10% of cutomers is better than giving away 30% of your profit and if you really want a deal you should present a list of exactly what you want an ask for a price. So to be clear exactly how much cheaper was the rack at H+H.

In reply to Si dH:
PS Outside do have the benefit of not charging for postage, which is something that means at kleast as much to me from a brand loyalty / principles point of view as BMC discount.

In reply to Dan Lane:

Traitor

In reply to Mountain Lass: I suppose you get bad staff everywhere, but my experience in Outside has always been a good one - although I do think they're regular prices are far from discounted, but the sale stuff is really good if you drop on it at the right time, I got a haglofs Oz pullover for £99 last summer a saving of £80, and have just bought a Rab Down Vest for £50 in the easter sale that they normally have which I would recommend to anyone, but the Meindl boots that I bought from them were £50 dearer than if I'd walked 10 yards across the street to Go-outdoors, after mentioning this they did sort me out a discount (£30 off), I was happy to pay, although still more expensive, as the boot fitting I got from the member of staff (Tom Richardson) was second to none in my humble opinion, very professional, helpful, and not at all rushed. I'd recommend them to anyone even with the high prices. In comparison I've been into Hitch n Hike numerous times with only one visit resulting in me actually buying anything for some reason - and if anyone knows me they'll know how rare going into an outdoor shop and not opening my wallet is. Horses for courses I suppose and very dependant on which member of staff you get.

In reply to HB1: Dont forget the large holiday home on the west coast of Scotland too that Mr Turnbull has to fund.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

I made a purchase in Outside last weekend (first time for a while) and proudly pulled out my BMC card for the expected discount...

"Oh we don't do a BMC discount anymore because there's so many other organistations like the ramblers that want discounts too and most of our stuff is discounted anyway."

I didn't notice or benefit from these discounts. I don't expect them to care much about missing out on my custom in the future but I certainly won't be going out of my way (like I did on this occasion) to shop there again.

I expect a shop which is significantly focussed and reliant on climbers (such as Outside) to offer benefits to the members of the most significant organisation representing climbers in the country (as many others do).

In reply to Crazylegs: Maybe they have so many customers that are BMC members that the amount of Discount they were giving was actually unsustainable. As a previous poster said 10% at retail is actually about 30% of thier profit. You go into outside knowing that 9 times out of ten they will have exactly what you want and the staff to help you out if needed unlike alot of other 'outdoor' stores.

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut: dont look at what discount you get or what rrp is on the lable. Pay what you think is reasonable for gear you think is good from staff who help you in a place you like and is convinent. And dont have a go at someone for spending the cash they have made for runnign a business.

In reply to joe_alexander: was that really directed at me?

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Out of curiosity, who gets discount in other places? I don't mean BMC discount, I mean non-climbing related. Does anyone get discount in Tescos? How about Boots? London Camera Exchange? Starbucks?

I'm merely musing into where this discount appeared from, and why it's so prevalent within the outdoors industry. Are there any other industries where discount is such a regular occurrence? Does nobody think that you need to pay for service? I've always found Outside to be very well informed, and very honest. They admit when they don't know the answer, to exactly what you're asking, but gets someone who does.

Also, why does everyone expect it? It's not like these shops are raking it in. The only shop doing well at the moment (as far as I'm aware) is Go Outdoors, and does anyone want them to take over the UK outdoors industry? Imagine that... according to their website, they stock 4 climbing shoes which you could describe as being technical. The rest are all comfy shoes.

In reply to Mountain Lass: I'm quite happy to fund Mr Turnbulls yacht, holiday home and any other extravagant whim he wishes to spend his money on - the staff, in my opinion, are helpful, polite, and know what they're talking about and Im OK with spending a little more for this kind of service.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Those on this thread who have made odd jibes about Mr Turnbull clearly don't understand how business works. Or perhaps you just feel really angry every time you spend any money anywhere that somebody is making a profit?

In reply to victim of mathematics:

I can see why people might hate Bill Gates, but I'm in favour of Lord Sainsbury. Sorry... Baron Sainsbury now.

In reply to Mountain Lass: for me, value is a combination of price, service and 'ethics'. I'd rather pay more at a decent shop with pleasant staff.

A bald 'You'll have to wait 2 hours until we can be arsed opening the box' wouldn't impress me, but a 'if you could wait while i get someone to help' or ' can i serve this person first' would.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

you should have gone to Needle sports....

In reply to Kitichika:


I collect points from a number of high street retailers, which in turn usually results in money off coupons or points to spend in store. So yes, in a way, I get a discount in other places but it is loyalty based.

In reply to Mountain Lass: i ve no problem with Mr Turnball making a profit and spending it on what the feck he pleases, infact it would tickle me to see his bright orange galardo parked outside, and cant actually see why this is at all relevant. i do however think if his staff are rude and un helpfull then its his reponsibilty, full stop (+ whoever else owns the shop). i buy gear in a couple of shops where i know and have in the past climbed with staff members and owners, i feel happy to give them the small profit that most climbing gear make s them in return for the knowledge and back up they give. i forgot to take my chalk bag to the peak a few months ago and as my wife needed a new one and we were in hathersage for breakfast i got one from outside. the girl on the till was rude and unhelpfull. i almost took the bag back after id walked out but did want to waste any more of my day. i m with you OP, the only thing i ll spend in outside in the future is a penny. on top of that the coffee was only barely describable as such.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Is it not for the BMC to approach outside and try and make some sort of a deal? I would assume that's how the discount started in the first place.

In reply to ciaran1999:
Surely the bmc discount thing started as a way of encouraging triffic through their doors by having their name in sumit mag and giving their members a few quid off in return. Perhaps the bmc need to sort out their lists of participating shops so that they are a more visible advert for the shop and that they are correct. A while back i asked for bmc discount in outside and was told they had stopped doing it ages ago despite the fact that they were still listed by the bmc.

In reply to gethin_allen: It's a mutual benefit arrangement.

Outside get advertising and customers
BMC get wider membership because of the member benefits.

Seems BMC are potentially still getting members by offering a discount in stores that do not particpate in the offer any more...

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Thanks for that - interesting thoughts all. I managed a much smaller gear shop for ten years, which is still in business, so I guess I'm aware of the way I expected my staff to treat customers and the way I myself would.

It's not so much a matter of cost, although of course that is a part of it, for with the internet there are a variety of good deals to be had. Rather it is, as many have stated above, that cost in a shop should be related to staff service - and I didn't get any. The magazine incident was reflective of this, and of many other times I've been there. I feel the lack of discount is reflective of this also.

Certainly I may be more sensitive of these things as I started climbing twenty one years ago, before synthetic fleece become commonly worn and the term 'adventure sports' was commonly used. I was working in the trade at a time when almost all my customers were real climbers, hillwalkers etc, or at least understood and had a passion for it for itself, rather than as a hobby with a cachet, which could be commercialised.

Perhaps then this sort of treatment is the norm in the post commercialised climbing world. If so I want no part of it and will go back to climbing where, as John Redhead once said, you run a risk of putting your hands in a dead sheep once in a while, although that sort of climbing seems rare these days.

Maybe they'll start selling those too soon, branded of course,


...and I still won't get a bloody discount.
ml

In reply to marie: I'm not sure retailers gain customers if everywhere gives BMC discount. If it's available in every climbing shop as it is then it doesn't help create loyalty to a particular shop. The discount thing has really got retailers over a barrel as they only loose if they don't give it not necessarily gain if they do.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Even if it were every shop, it would not be to every customer, only to those who support the biggest organisation which supports our sport.

In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut: Yes, but years ago, the offer wasn't for every shop - it was for a select climbing /mountaineering few.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

I've had mixed experiences from them over the years. Went in to buy a rope years ago and they didn't have a 50m that I asked for so they let me have the 60m for the same price. That was when the rock room was where the boots are now though.

I noticed the BMC discount went from 10% which I used to get from them even before I was a member down to 5% and recently has gone altogether. Some of their prices are reasonable and I'll get my hand in my pocket there, but you can't tell me that everything's discounted already when their Petzl Meteor III helmet is £70 in Outside and 56.65 at OutsideGB (?) or 59.95 at Banana Fingers.

I've started to use Needle Sports a lot more recently. I've found their advice to be second to none and they will fall over themselves backwards to help. BMC discount too

Over the years I've had good, bad and indifferent service from Outside. It can be very cliquey depending on who works there, but you can bypass their boredom by pretending you're not a punter. Flick through the new routes book or ask them about taking 30 footers onto RPs and wath their eyes light up. I've had Anderson, Pearson and loads I can't remember serve me over the years. Some nice. Some rude.

I'm all for supporting businesses and don't begrudge anyone making a good profit from their business but whatever happened to Longlands cafe above outside?

In reply to Mountain Lass:

last time i was in, i'm pretty sure almost no climbing hardware was on sale at rrp - it was all reduced, not to mention the fact that they were stocking brands that aren't as common in many shops - metolius etc.

as for the staff, i spent 3 weeks in the peak living in hathersage and all the staff seemed super friendly - happy to banter on with a smelly climbing bum, even though i wasn't spending the earth there.

yes i was sad to hear that they no longer do bmc discount but i'd be very surprised if you wouldn't have been offered some extra discount if you were spending that much (that said, are you sure it was cheaper at HnH with bmc discount?)

as for the magazines, did you consider that they may have received the delivery but that there may not have been free staff to check the stock in and i'm guessing that magazines are not a high priority for the shop if they're busy.

either way, it seems people feel the need to show their outrage when they don't get exactly what they want in a shop and in my opinion outside is definitely one of the best climber's shops in the uk.

just my 2p as i've always considered the service at outside top notch.

In reply to Mountain Lass: I take it Outside don't sponsor UKC - the thread's still going.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

that sounds crazy. Whenever I have bought a large amount of kit - especially when I have known exactly what I have wanted I have gone to speak to one of the staff told them how much I was spending asked for a discount and told them I'll be going down the road and seeing what they will discount and usually got 10-15% off. The markup is higher than this so if you are a low service customer it makes sense for them to knock some money off.

With Outside specifically I have had both good and bad experiences in there over the years. The bad ones tend to come on good grit days when the staff have a grump on

In reply to andrew sandercock:

Yeah, it's run by climbing bums who like to talk to climbing bums. If you are a bumbly, you are likely to get patronised. Survival of the fittest. If your face don't fit. Etc etc.

Remember it's a service industry. If you don't get what you expect, complain to the owner and remove your custom. Then they'll go the same way as Nevisports. Then we can all shop at Hitch N Hike and get what we expect ( but with a 10 minute extra drive).

In reply to Mountain Lass:

If you know EXACTLY what you want, its generally cheaper to shop around online. Rock & Run are quite competitive.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

I had a fair bit (less than a grand) of money to spend there last year and the friend that was with me managed to secure me a discount because I was spending so much.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

If I want intelligent well thought out advice on climbing gear I go to Outside, if I want similar advice on caving gear I go to H'n'H. If I want cheap prices then I order on the internet from a supplier with low overheads.

As for owners, the owner of H'n'H makes Dick Turnbull look like a fluffy bunny!

And the staff on the rock counter in Outside are lovely.

In reply to wayno265:

Outside have advertised at UKClimbing.com for the last three years. They are one of the great independent climbing and outdoor shops.

It is because of shops like Outside that UKC exists in its current form - which would be the best climbing media in the UK.

I hope you enjoy UKC.

Mick

In reply to wayno265:

I think UKC took the decision to keep threads going even if they are slagging of advertisers as long as no one is making false claims accusations...

I may be wrong though

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: lol got there before me

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Rather than have a pop at Outside, have you checked that the BMC have negotiated a deal whereby Outside will offer their members a discount. If the BMC haven't done this recently, and have informed you (via some list or other) that you should get a discount when shopping there, then it's the BMC you should be criticising.

The fact that people used to get discount at Outside for being BMC members doesn't mean that this should continue indefinitely. Any discount offered is entirely at the shop's discretion.

In reply to Phil West: Sorry, explain how this worked? When I worked there, we simply weren't getting technical stock. This thread aooears to be related to customer service. Maybe I'm just getting defensive in my old age.

In reply to 1234None:

Have a look at my other post.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

I guess i'm glad others have had better experiences, and I have to agree with Mick that in my past experience they have been one of the great mountain shops. Perhaps I've simply had a bad run which has been further coloured by my sadness at the general commercialisaion of climbing.

ml

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I do, yes. Just wondered why you let people criticise Outside, but not Creation Climbing Wall in B'ham?

In reply to wayno265:

Wrong yet again. We do. The forums are full of threads giving criticism, some maybe even justified and often businesses respond.

Often it is people fulfilling their need to to have a moan - we get lots of those and most sensible people can recognise them.

Sometimes we have to make a judgement call on whether to pull a thread or censor some posts in it, especially when the mob mentality takes over. Some threads are started by rival companies or friends of other businesses, we have to make a judgement there.

Take this thread, it's essentially about BMC discount, not about Outside. Many shops don't necessarily join in the BMC discount scheme as they give their own discount as they see fit. See all the positive posts about Outside, their prices, expertise and service.

You can't please everyone and we have learnt over the years that anyone who is involved in the business of climbing comes in for criticism as some climbers don't like the fact of life that some people make a living - quite fairly - from climbing. Many like Outside also provide much employment for people over many years. They are an essential cog in the commerce of climbing that we are all involved in be it the manufacturers of gears, distributors, gear sellers, media or the end user, the customer which is all of us are as we need gear to play on rocks.

One thing we look out for is personal attacks and when threads descend into a frenzy of negativity. They either get closed or deleted.

We have pulled many threads about complaints about gear, usually about warranty issues, after we have investigated and found out that the gear in question has been used for ten years. Some people threaten to 'out' businesses at the UKC forums after some problem, sometimes it is not a fault of the business but an indignant customer who just expects too much.

Nothing is straightforward at face value and we dear friend take the brunt of it at the UKC forums, daily. Moderating can be hellish job. It's complex, time consuming and mentally exhausting. Sometimes it is just easier to pull the thread than get involved in the complexities of the argument or the complaint.

We always try our best.

Thankfully, those who support our UKC pleasure, both advertisers, readers and contributors understand this.

Mick

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Glad you decided to shop at two independent climbing shops Mountain Lass.

Independent climbing shops face increasing competition from online shops with few overheads....who cut and cut prices as they know that to many price is king. It is because of this that many shops find it hard to offer BMC discount especially on top of their own discount and overheads.

There are some great online retailers out there that offer great service, but also many wide boys who are in it for a quick kill.

A bit like independent record shops, independent climbing shops, like Outside and Hitch 'N Hike, are rare these days. If we lose them many stand to lose their jobs, the locally economy suffers, we have no place to try on harnesses, rock shoes, have mountain boots fitted, and often they have really knowledgeable staff with great expertise.

You said..


You know that is not true.

M

In reply to Mountain Lass: i was in outside and made great use of the cafe, big map and browse a book area. all good. i know its not there fault, but there was a one cup coffee filter on sale that was £15; for a plastic ring with a straining mesh in it! if people has the mobney to buy that sort of thing, its no wonder they dont do extra discount for BMC.
But good coffee in the cafe.

In reply to Mountain Lass: I bet if you went to a slightly smaller private shop you would have got a few % off and a cup of tea, to help your decision making! Thinking of any of the ones in Llanberis, Needle Sports those kind of venues.

In reply to Mountain Lass: Interestingly their other branch does not sell technical gear- presumably because there is little margin in it. Foot and mouth caused the sale of the Llanberis branch to the staff, now V12.

I happily bought some shoes there without discount, as I understood that the fitting advice had to be costed in somewhere. However many items were sufficiently more expensive, to make me look elsewhere.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Outside is a great shop and the staff there have been very helpful to me in the past, especially when I was buying my first rack and shoes - giving me expert advice and lovely general chit chat.

Their prices are amongst the lowest I've found and yet their service and products are still top notch. That is a great business achievement.

Just because you can't get your 10% BMC discount there doesn't mean you shouldn't support the shop. I continue to do so but I guess that's my perogative.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

i would say in general the policy to not offer any discount comes from the fact that the shop is staffed by wage slave climbers - who are in general way too likely (in profit terms) to give discounts to all their climbing mates who came in.

so the business option of encouraging big sales by discounting big spends (like someone buying a whole rack for example) is outweighted by the fact that if its available as an option, most climbing staff would give you (or at the least their numerous climbing mates)as much discount as they can.

They may not be the cheapest but there's been a lot of times i was grateful for somewhere to potter about waiting for the rain to pass..

Then of course there's the time my car broke and i needed to borrow a hammer...

In reply to Mountain Lass:

I chose to shop at those offering the BMC discount and avoid those that don't.

In reply to jfw: but if you were the owner of a shop stood behind the counter, someone came in and said they were replacing a whole rack, the first thing I would think is that's my overheads for the day covered, then say, "i'm sure we can knock a few percent off or throw a cam in for free, would you like a brew?". Once they have accepted the brew, they are psychologically trapped!

In reply to Mountain Lass: Im slightly surprised at a spend of £1200 on a new rack.
admittedly I bought mine some 5 years ago and have replaced bits in that time, but it cost nothing like that.

whats in this rack??

So you complain about the commercialisation of climbing yet you ran a climbing shop?! I don't belong to the BMC, and don't see why I should pay any more than you for kit. What about the SMC? CC? Ramblers Club? There are so many organisations that how is it fair for a walking/mountaineering/climbing shop to offer discounts to one and not the other?
Personal jibes at members of staff are pretty low, I've never had a problem with Outside, everyone has always been really friendly, but everyone has bad days as well.

This:

"Certainly I may be more sensitive of these things as I started climbing twenty one years ago, before synthetic fleece become commonly worn and the term 'adventure sports' was commonly used. I was working in the trade at a time when almost all my customers were real climbers, hillwalkers etc, or at least understood and had a passion for it for itself, rather than as a hobby with a cachet, which could be commercialised.

Perhaps then this sort of treatment is the norm in the post commercialised climbing world. If so I want no part of it and will go back to climbing where, as John Redhead once said, you run a risk of putting your hands in a dead sheep once in a while, although that sort of climbing seems rare these days.

Maybe they'll start selling those too soon, branded of course,"


...is one of the most ridiculous and pretentious things I have ever read on here, so well done, because god knows there have been a few.

In reply to bomb:I've not seen any personal jibes from Mountain Lass aimed at anybody though, more that she found the service perhaps less friendly or helpfull than it could have been.

I do agree that the personal jibes are out of order though, especially the ones about Dick Turnbull having to fund his yacht and holiday home. Having grown up in Sheffield and gone to Outside quite regularly over the years, he's always seemed to be working very hard, and keen for things to be right with regards to having things in stock and his staff having rounded climbing experience, in organising staff going to the Alps each summer to do more than just rock climbing, I dare say he tries to only hire experienced people as well.

If I go to Outside it's more for thier gear knowledge and how they try to make sure the gear is right for the person buying it, rather than for the price.

I think I can see where Mountain Lass is coming from, in that things seemed a bit more personal in climbing shops than they can do now, but I guess more people climbing can mean more money for the gear companies to spend on developing new products, so it could have it's plus side in the end I guess, if that's not happening already.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Swig: If I'm spending something in the order of £1000 I shop around and then haggle as a matter of principle. Most suppliers seem to be amenable to this these days. I recently got a >£2000 mountain bike reduced to £1700. I was happy and the shop got the sale and still made some profit. The mark ups on some items are outrageous.

Al

In reply to bomb:



Is it best to get Merino or synthetic?

In reply to Trangia:

Why? Say a shop a) was offering and item for £90 but no discount and shop b)was offering the same thing for £100 but would give you 10% bmc, are you saying you would not go to shop a), because to me shop a) is the more straight forward and honest.
Also if your such a supporter of the bmc 10% discount why not offer it as discount on the service you provide?
Cheers Beds

In reply to J1234:

I'm afraid I disagree. I think shop b) is being consistent with it's support for BMC members. Shop a) has just made a commercial decision as is it's right. It is also my right to support shops that do support BMC members. I have also noticed that shops which say they are already selling at a discount are not always being entirely honest when it comes to some articles.
>

Also if your such a supporter of the bmc 10% discount why not offer it as discount on the service you provide?
>
If you are talking about Go Ape? We do!

In reply to Trangia:
No arguement there but if the shop doing BMC is no cheaper than the other shop then they are doing nothing for you and profiting of everyone else (I do not object to profit)and just using the BMC discount as a form of advertising.
Supporting BMC members? I thought the discount was given as an incentive for people to join the BMC thereby supporting climbing in general.
Well if you own or work for Go Ape and give BMC a discount, that shuts me up. Keeping Andy Hyslop happy but not Ian Hislop.
Cheers Beds

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Do you ask for a discount in Tesco too on account of membership of some obscure club?

I don't get this whole "BMC Discount" thingy

In reply to J1234:

I wish I owned it!!

I work as a part time instructor there.

Cheers

In reply to Kitichika: true, You go to a retuarant and havea nice meal and good service, what do you do? you (should) leave a tip! you go to a shop, get excellent service and the product you were looking for, what do most people do? they ask for a discount!!

Some time ago Dick Turnbull wrote an article for one of the climbing mags, I think it was entitled "you've never had it so good"

It should be found and put up again for people to see,

With inflation over the years, food/fuel and all your general material items have increased in price,

My first rock shoes cost me about £60 over 15 years ago, now rock shoes cost me about £60 quid, go figure

Most shops that offer a BMC discount will give the ame discount to Ramblers, SMC, CC, Alpine Club, CTC, Camping and caravaning, National trust etc etc etc, i.e. an outdoor organisation,

If I recieved poor service from a store and it made me decide not to spend there, I may write to the owner describing the member of staff and the situation and how it made me feel, and politely request a response

Bear in mind outside is a business and need to make a profit, plus they provide an amazing choice, but if the staff need a kicking then they need to do so,

and remember for the cost of a starbucks/costa coffe you can buy a carabiner made in the UK, who makes the bigger profit?


General rambling rant over

gearboy out ttfn

In reply to gear boy:
Just absolutely spot on.

In reply to toad:

spot on, that's why i'd rather drink a cup of cold piss while sitting in an bath of pissed off lobster than go to starbucks.

In reply to gear boy:

.......a climbing website called UKClimbing.com.

Some things have changed in the outdoor trade since 1987, some have stayed the same; that " Wild Country chalk bag and a block of chalk for £11.20p." that was Dick's first sale would only cost £14.00 today.....a £1.80 increase in 20 years.

In fact, most outdoor gear has stayed the same price or has decreased in price the last twenty years: Goretex jackets used to be £300.00, now they average around £180.00 with only a top end Arcteryx costing close to £300.00.

Rock boots, same price as 1990, around £70.00, and the same with ropes. Yet costs, especially rent and rates have risen. With gross margins of only 30%, the purchasing power of the big multiples driving prices down, and of course everyone wanting discount, it isn't an easy time being an independent outdoor shop but Dick Turnbull has stayed the course and has survived and thrived.

Dick Turnbull's Outside....20 years old

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=37874

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It doesn't alter Dave's point, but £11.20 plus £1.80 is £13 not £14

In reply to Mountain Lass:
Yes you get discounts for loads of things. A member of a regional rugby team would expect to get a percentage off at least one local stockist, same for cricket and I expect many other niche activities too. If a competitor wants the sale, then it has to match the discount when pressed for it. My bank account gives me free green flag and holiday insurance plus loads of discounts and free stuff.
I think that specialist climbing shops are different to these other branded swaggers of PR deals for members. I want a local independent stockist who is knowledgable and happy to do business with, so I'd advise anyone to try Dick's Climbing in Bristol or Needle in the Lakes if they live there. I haven't found one in London yet, so I've been fairly tight-lipped about it of late. The margins aren't exactly the best and so what if someone runs a business efficiently through a boom time? What do people expect?
I expect to give a fair day's pay for a fair day's work.

In reply to Mountain Lass:

The staff at Outside build customer loyalty by having unrivalled product knowledge and not being out just to make money. I can immediately think of at least 2 occasions where they have gone above and beyond the call of duty, in a way that other shops wouldn't have.

A few years back I was in there with my girlfriend when she was trying to buy some crampons. A member of staff there spent over an hour of his time trying lots of different crampons on her boots, at the end of which he told her honestly that he didn't think any of the models we had tried were a good fit. It is good to see some honesty from staff who are not just trying to sell something which isn't right for you.

Last time I was in there I asked whether they had some Scarpa Cumbre boots in my size, as the Nepal Extremes I had were causing a big blister on the back of my heel. Rather than trying to sell me the Cumbres the staff member suggested I should just bring the Nepals (which I hadn't even bought there!) into the shop next time and they would see if they could rectify the problem. It is good to see a shop which isn't just out to make a quick buck.

I think the difference is that the shop is staffed by people who are passionate about climbing (eg James Pearson is a former employee), and they are good at seeing things from a customer perspective as they are customers buying this kind of gear themselves.

The range of worldwide guidebooks there is also inspiring, and you only see this in the independent shops.

It is a shame they don't do the discount (and I must admit this has stopped me from making high value purchases of some items there), but the level of service, the product knowledge and the range of items stocked means it is definitely one of the best shops around and we need to support them.

In reply to nick ingram: Thank's for the plug Nick. Hope London is treating you well.

Dick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



very true - same goes for independent book shops, wine shops, hifi and running shops, all areas close to my heart. If we don't support them we'll lose them and end up with the lowest common denominator with cheap goods but no quality advice, expert fitting, etc available. I've generally had good service in Outside over the years but I'm not sure the best climbers necessarily make the best outdoor gear advisors- give me a dedicated gear freak any day.

IMHO there is a genuine problem with sniffy elitism, disinterest in customers and offhandedness among a minority of climbing shop (and climbing wall) staff, much more noticeable than in any other type of business that I patronise, which the owners / managers should be on the look out for and ready to stamp out. I think both businesses and customers tolerate this too much and sympathise with ML and her tale of the magazine - I wouldn't be keen to go back after that.

just my 2p P

In reply to Duncan Bourne: yeh thats what they said to me when i asked if they did BMC discounts .
I would say that Outside are one of the most expensive outdoor shops around

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Don't know if it's been said already, but Outside haven't done the BMC discount for at least a year, probably two , trying to remember back to when I frst got the 'we're already discounted' line. I also thought it was pretty wide knowledge that they don't do it anymore.

I can't complain, over the last 5 years from Outside I've saved £100 quid on my tent, £80 on my gortex, £70 on my down jacket, £xxx on my rack and ropes. Never once using a BMC card. They've alwasy got good stuff on sale.

Climbers love to whinge over a few bob, even a 'percieved but factually incorrect' few bob. A more tight fisted bunch I'm not sure you can find.

In reply to Richard Hall:

Cheers Dick, indoor climbing is rubbish and sandstone sucks, 6 hours to Pembroke.... I never thought I'd say this, but I miss Avon Gorge. Good machiatos available everywhere though.

In reply to nick ingram:

Ha, ha, brilliant! I feel for you.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

But that's not the full story though. Since 1987 the market for such items has increased quite dramatically and a lot of gear manufacturing has moved to places with cheaper labour markets. There are also (in this country) tax breaks for R&D which I would imagine people like DMM can take advantage of. All of this somewhat counterbalances rises in rent and materials...

In reply to Mountain Lass:

Normaly Outside, Hathersage seem OK, just a bad day? Still, very annoying.

I had an odd one there about 6 years ago, popped into get a 30m 10.5 single rope for grit, rather than trash a 50m 9.2, superdry. Yep, they had the rope but would not let me have it as "its a wall rope, not for outdoors."

Took five minutes to get to Hitch and Hike.

I do find some staff at a range of outdoor retailer have a "what hav you done that is hard enough to let you shop here?" Type attitude, but others are super helpful and pleasant.