UKC

I set up for an abseil, tying 5mm cord around my anchor. I forgot my maillon, so I decide to pass the rope directly through the cord. Is this dangerous? (Presuming I won't jump around on the rope whilst abseiling). 

Its not ideal, as you can potentially get friction generated between the rope and cord if the rope is moving around alot, but I'd do it (in fact I have done it) at a push.

I'd be more concerned if multiple people do it, and repeated pull a rope through the cord, as you'll potentially get alot of wear on the cord and in the same spot.

No.

Al

Abbing directly on cord or tape is common practice. I‘d want more than one wrap of 5mm though 

We did it for many years before the downsides became clearer and relatively cheap and light rap rings became available.  5mm cord is on the light side and most people would want two or three strands of it.   Beyond that, there are two downsides:

1. Retrieving the rope is going to be harder than if a ring had been used, and there is a correct strand to pull and an incorrect one. (The correct strand is the one underneath the sling, the incorrect strand is the one on top of the sling.)  It can be a lot harder, as in the rope won't budge.  If you rap this way, it is imperative for the first person down to test whether or not they can pull the rope.  If they can't, you'll probably have to leave a carabiner if you have no rings.

2. The biggest danger is not to you but to subsequent parties.  Pulling down the rope saws nylon against nylon, and it is possible to leave behind a critically compromised sling.  This is especially true if the rap sling is webbing rather than cord.

This sort of think is pretty common in alpenism as its not like youre going to carry 10 mallions! However 5mm is pretty thin and there have been recorded accidents in the uk of people doing this, swinging round on the rope to retrieve gear and melting through the tat.

Ultimately though its a bit antisocial as by pulling the rope you are potentially f**king the tat so it can't be used by the next party.

Typical UKC, everyone goes into lecture mode and offers advice that wasn't asked for. I'm guilty myself but of late I've decided to be more succinct and to the point

Al

There's nothing antisocial about it, each party rig their own tat and remove any old tat that they find. It's a perfectly good social arrangement.

In the alternate reality I apparently dwell in, people rap off existing tat all the time, and in fact I'd say that rigging their own and cutting down what's there is more the exception than the rule.

I should have mentioned a real danger to the party that installs a sling with no rings.  If the party is rappelling with two different-diameter ropes, they will typically stretch differentially, causing one of the ropes to saw over the sling (depending on the location of the joining knot).  This is a sawing action under load and is potentially quite dangerous---I know a party that had the first person saw halfway through the rap webbing before the realized what was happening.

It happens in the reality that I dwell in as well, I inspect in-situ tat and make a judgement on whether to use it or replace it.  I've never felt that people who leave tat without a rap ring are anti-social.

TBH being paranoid I'd replace anything in-situ that wasn't metalwork anyway.  You never know what its history is.

That's your choice, I tend to inspect the in-situ tat and probaly make the decision the use it as often as I choose to replace it.

I'm that the claim that people who make different choices are anti-social is entirely fair.

I've watched the anchors whilst people have abseiled with heavy loads on different sized ropes many times, my observation is that as long as the abseil is steady and controlled without gung-ho bouncing or loading and unloading the rope then  there is very little sawing action at the anchors.

I think that most of my screwgate krabs are abseil swag! And quite a few of my slings......

Would you?

I've just come back from a day at Shorncliffe. On your advice, we'd have needed to place around 10 bits of new ab tat during the day for our party - we actually placed one. My standard routine is to check the best bit (or bits) of existing tat (right the way round). If it looks undamaged and not badly faded then I back up with a loose sling of my own and let the heaviest person ab first. Then remove the loose sling and the lighter person abs second.

Worth noting though that all ab stations at Shorncliffe have rings or in-situ karabiners so no wear due to previous parties pulling the ropes through. Also the anchors are (mostly) substantial trees.

I think that's what most people do at similar crags - but by all means correct me if I'm wrong.

Martin

Wear your chalk bag on a loop of cord instead of the belt you buy it on and don't hesitate about leaving it behind to back up any dodgy looking abseil. Having your chalk bag on a knotted piece of rope instead of relying on a plastic buckle also reduces the risk of dropping it (maybe with your car keys in that funky little zip pocket?). 

Really? Everytime?

Have you climbed on Dinas Cromlech for example? I'm pretty risk averse but take the "assess and replace as necessary" route.

That's fine while ever it's in reasonable condition, if it's not in good condition or you can't tell cut out and remove the worst bits before adding more.

OP: it's ok if you're careful not to let the rope run unevenly while abbing and so long as you check it'll pull before the last person commits. 5mm is on the thin side but it's adequate.

jk

Happened to me. I'd abseiled to the start of The Fifth Appendage on Lundy, a ledge about 2 metres above the drink. Arrived all bunched up with ropes coiled round me and as I straightened myself out discovered too late that the buckle on my silly little chalk bag belt had come undone. Chalk bag had guide book in it and both went off on a journey across the Atlantic in an ever whitening swirl of seawater! From then on it's been chalk bag on 6mm (not 5mm, in case needed for ab tat) cord for me.

WE got a row in Piz Palu / Fortezza Ridge ascent from a local who said 'textile on textile is bad!' Several strands wrapped around are fine for the climbers immediately using it but after rope has been pulled through the strength has been undermined and I would not use it alone without my own backup. I believe some ab tat has been chopped in various locations by self appointed sheriffs! Consternation and debate followed!

I haven't really climbed in many places where it was necessary.  But I definitely would not trust in-situ tat; unlike typical climbing metalwork, fabrics have a much higher potential for invisible damage.  And cord is really quite cheap, you could buy a lot of it for the cost of the fuel to get anywhere decent to climb from the Sarfeast.

Right, so it's OK, but best not the first choice - better to add a chain link/ring. Thanks guys. Where do you buy your rings/chain links cheap? 

And I've already said that I observed the opposite, so there you have it.  What happens is highly dependent on the ropes involved and the amount of friction in the system below the anchor, so it is entirely possible to see no sawing action or significant sawing action.  One thing to remember is that not sawing through 99 times is of little interest if the rope saws through on the hundredth.

You can get steel mallions from all good caving shops, such as Inglesports (check out their website).  I usually carry a couple on my harness as they're much cheaper than krabs (unless you acquire them as crag swag).

I feel the need to confirm that I never said that. 

But the situation is somewhat nuanced.  If you are retreating in a remote situation, of course you would do whatever is required by the situation and the gear you have on hand.  At the other end of the commitment spectrum, if you are setting up rap stations on relatively small crags, stations that you know will be used by many people, then I think there ought to be a responsibility for making a really sound installation, so no 5mm cord and some kind of rap ring.  Between these two extremes, grey areas abound.

When I set up rap stations on trees at our local two-pitch crag, I use two idependently-tied loops of 8.5mm climbing rope (from retired but not abused half ropes) with one or two beefy maillons.

On long routes that I either do not anticipate rappelling or on which I expect established stations, I usually have a good length of 9/16" webbing and 4-5 of the light SMC aluminum rings in the pack the second carries. (These rings are really light, but the problem with them is that they cannot be installed on webbing and cord already in place.)  Forgetting about social responsibility, I've been badly burned by not being able to retrieve rappel ropes threaded directly through slings, and consider the rings important for my own safety and well-being.

You don’t need to leave a malion or ring. 

If leaving my own tat my default is to thread the ropes through the tat direct. If I think the ropes will be difficult to pull I will put an old krab through the tat to reduce friction. 

Top tip: always have an old krab on your nut key that you can leave without a thought.

I’ve abseiled a lot on 5mm cord as it is lighter and less bulky. (Not really a consideration for UK climbing, but definitely a factor if you’re abseiling a big alpine face.) 6mm and 7mm is a lot less scary though. 

Remember gear is cheap and dieing is bad. Leave whatever you need to get down safely, but you don’t need to leave a malion/rap ring/krab on every rap.

The answer is no, but only if you’re not doing it repeatedly due to the Friction/wear. The number of times the cord can withstand the retrieval without failing is probably high, but there will be a point at which it fails.

In reality its as likely that the contact points of a 5mm cord with whatever it is wrapped around will wear before any melting from rope retrieval. 5mm gives quite a concentrated contact area.