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Self belay - is the shunt still king?

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 wilkie14c 01 Nov 2020

Been a few years since I’ve done any shunting, doing laps in the Lancs quarries mainly.

I’ve a few highish problems I’d like to tick but combinations of bad landings, height and no spotters means I can’t justify just going for it, would rather get moves wired than claim an OS. Is the shunt still king or are there now better options? Can’t find my shunt anywhere so in the market for one of anybody has one furloughed away! 

 Ceiriog Chris 01 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

A duck, far stronger. 

6
 TobyA 01 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

A lot of discussion here and elsewhere on the merits and pitfalls if you do a search. I'm pretty certain that when I bought a shunt 25 years ago that using it to self-line was on the box along with abseil protection, but IIRC Petzl doesn't recommend its use singly that way anymore.

From reading LOTS on this earlier this year, my conclusion was I was happy to use my shunt that way (I even treated myself to 30 mtrs of static for shunting) but to make sure I tied over hand knots every so often, which I don't think I always did shunting routes in the past.

I not so long ago read an instagram post from a friend of a friend from where I used to live who ended up in hospital slipping off a climb when "shunting" on a grigri and some how the grigri not locking. So he slid down the rope and hit the floor. He said his mistake was not tying knots in the rope, rather than using the grigri.

 George Frisby 01 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Just use a gri gri if you don't care about self feeding and are happy to pull through slack after each couple of moves. good for repeating hard sections as can lower down immediately to try again. 

If you want self feeding on sustained routes can use roll n lock with back up of micro trax beneath for extra safety. Pics of the set up of these online if you search, with a necklace and extender dogbone on the top device to keep them separate. This is what i use and it works well. Just a bit of a faff to lower down the fixed line. 

And for anything always tie knots to stop you decking/hitting ledges as a final backup. 

G

 George Frisby 01 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Re. Shunt - no personal experience with one but i have seen accidents happen with them at the crag when others have been tr soloing, think Dave McLeod covers possible reasons why they might not lock up in his shunt YouTube vid, and obviously knots in the rope would be a good back-up for the shunt, as with any ascender style TR solo device. 

 alfmeister 01 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Taz lov2 

v spendy though

OP wilkie14c 01 Nov 2020
In reply to alfmeister:

just watched a couple of youtube vids about the lov2, interesting. Could hire a belayer for less than the cost though 😬

Removed User 02 Nov 2020
In reply to alfmeister:

> Taz lov2 

> v spendy though

To be honest it looks like it does things how the Trango Cinch or Vergo do, the advantage being the rope has a fairly straight pass through the device (like the shunt) rather than the U bend a Gri Gri does. The Trango device run nicely up a weighted rope without pulling through usually, and need no disconnecting or additional devices to change to descent (though I personally always have a second device on a second independent rope because I'm that kind of guy).

Cinch and Vergo also have a satisfying construction of few parts, only one or two that move, minimal plastic. All of which I find meaningful for an over all system.

Andy Gamisou 02 Nov 2020
In reply to George Frisby:

> Re. Shunt - no personal experience with one but i have seen accidents happen with them at the crag when others have been tr soloing

Crikey!  As a fledgling top rope shunter, I'd be interested in any details you can provide on these.

 Mark Haward 02 Nov 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Many years ago; when I was invincible, even more ignorant than I am now and certainly a lot less aware; I was using a shunt whilst doing some routes on Southern Sandstone. 

    Single rope, weighted, strong tree anchor. I was using a shunt with a 'necklace' but no back up device or use of knots. I had used the system many times before and it had taken falls / rests no problem. This time I paused to work out a move, weighted the rope and my forearm pulled the rope above the device slightly towards me. I started to slip and grabbed the rope ( instinctively ) and fear caused me to hyper extend my back. This combination released the shunt and I plummeted to the ground. Fortunately from only 5 metres up. So I was lucky to get away with a very sore ankle and extremely painful rope burns on my hands which required hospital treatment. ( I do remember seeing another person with a can of Fanta which I 'borrowed' and immediately poured on my hands to reduce the pain - thank you that person ).

    Nowadays I tend to use a shunt, but am aware of its limitations and advantages including possible user induced scenarios, plus a back up device. Sometimes I use knots but this can make rope retrieval entertaining, a rolling clove hitch sometimes works. 

 maxsmith 02 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

For top rope soloing I use a petzl microtraxion and ct roll and lock.  You could use any similar progress capture device.  In my opinion this is a lot safer than the shunt, which has known failings.  

 George Frisby 02 Nov 2020
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Seen someone slide 1/2 of the way down the fixed line on a quarried grit route, caught them below the ground, no knot in the fixed line. I'm sure it could be user error issues, no idea why it happened, just presumed the same issues that Dave covers in his vid. 

 planetmarshall 02 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

I use a microtraxion and Rescuscender on a single rope, as per the Petzl datasheet.

 wercat 02 Nov 2020
In reply to TobyA:

I tried out a shunt several times that long ago and I found it reliable and had no worries about soloing some HS on my own as long as I weighted the rope.  I must revive it if we are still in Covid next summer as it may be a way of getting out!

I remember using on Aberdeenshire sea cliffs on short climbs I definitely wouldn't have soloed!  After initial nerves I found it pretty safe even though I was on my own. I seem to remember being careful over attachment advice to make sure it worked properly. Might have involved a short extender or something to raise it a bit above the harness.

Post edited at 10:01
 wercat 02 Nov 2020
In reply to Mark Haward:

Every time I used the shunt I went through some practice "falls" very low down so I was in the mindset not to grab the rope as I seem to remember stories like yours and the importance of just letting it work. I was doing this on pretty straight topographically simple pitches, no overhangs.

You are right though, it is very important not to place unqualified trust in anything mechanical without understanding limitations

Post edited at 10:06
 kwoods 02 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

The only shunting issue I ever had was using it on a brand new, slick rope. Fell onto it cleanly but it simply didn't catch without the friction on the rope surface. I was falling with the rope zipping through the shunt, but there would've have been friction in the system as I stopped by grabbing the rope! With rope burns...

Using a not-new rope with the sheen taken off and a bit of fur seems to work better. 

OP wilkie14c 02 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Thanks for everyone’s views on this, I never had any problems at all in my shunting days, I’d prefer a secondary back up device going forward though

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I had a close call on a shunt at split rock quarry. A hold snapped so I fell unexpectedly and instinctively grabbed the rope above me, and started sliding down it, leading to pretty nasty rope burns

Of course, with out my weight really on the rope the shunt didn't lock. It all happened so quickly and was 20 years ago, but I seem to remember my brain realising what was going on (because I had read about this type of situation) and making the decision to let go of the rope. The shunt then did it's job.

If I hadn't let go I think the rope burn would have been horrendous, and in could have still hit the ground at a fair speed. I was about 50ft up. 

climbkrisclimb 02 Nov 2020

Assuming you mean for a solo top-roping, I prefer using 2 devices for redundancy:

Device 1 (more aggressive but bomber device): either microtraxion, WC Ropeman or CT Roll&Lock.

Device 2 (less aggressive but I think less reliable device): either one of the above or preferably a grigri, revo, rescucender, microscender, silent partner, shunt, etc. 

With all of these, there's clearly a tradeoffs between how aggressive they are on the rope and how much slippage they may allow. Clearly if something is stabbing into the rope in a fall against the direction of travel (as with all Device 1s), this is pretty reliable for smaller falls but over a long time will cause more rope wear and may lead to sheath damage in a big fall.

The above to me seems like the best balance between redundancy (do you really want your first mistake to be your last), rope damage and additional weight. I always carry one of Device 1 (preferably microtraxion) for rescue scenarios and would trust it on it's own (the second device is to avoid user error). I would never trust a single device 2 alone though. I've listed my preferred devices above but there's various other substitutes (e.g. Jumar could be used for 1; even a prusik could be used for either if you don't mind manually feeding the rope though. Note, I would NOT trust a tibloc for Device 1). 

If I had a long enough rope, I'd hang 2 strands down just in case one wears through and add another device to the separate strand (though others like 2 completely redundant systems, i.e. both a device 1 and 2 on the second strand). As others have mentioned, Petzl have a section on their website on top-rope self-belaying which they recommend this sort of setup too: https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/To-read-for-self-belaying?ActivityName=ro... 

Lead soloing:

This requires a different method as you need to come up with a strategy for paying out whilst also arresting yourself in the event of a fall (i.e. the rope has to be able to be given out whilst also stopping giving out if too much rope is going out at once). The most used primary devices for this are Silent Partners (think this is no longer produced) Revo, Edelrid Eddy, Grigris or Soloist. Two videos which explain the concepts are Matt Hunter's Rope Solo Demonstration (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzJZSLhjPm0&ab_channel=MatthewHunter) and Peter Jacob's How To Lead Rope Solo Rock Climb (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTkVZX4ACkQ&ab_channel=PeterJacobs). Note: I don't endorse either video due to what I deem slight issues! If I had the money, I'd get a WC Revo and use a microtraxion as backup like in the second video except from a short cord off the harness belay loop (not from the leg loop like in the video). The explanation of the slipknots and keeping the first belay facing upwards from Matt Hunter's videos is how I'd set up the rope.

In reply to climbkrisclimb:

Good Post, can I question why the micro trax is placed above the shunt? 

I do it the other way around, I wouldn't want a failed microtrax making contact with the top of the shunt and potentially squeezing the shunt open. A failed shunt contacting a microtrax cannot do this. 

Andy Gamisou 02 Nov 2020
In reply to various:

Maybe I need to learn to climb with leather gloves on whilst shunting

In reply to wilkie14c:

I use a shunt to self belay, but I back it up by pushing a jumar ahead of it as I climb. Never rely on one thing to save your life and limbs if you can have two.

 Martin Haworth 02 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

A topic that I think a few of us will be interested in.

 I’ve done a little bit of shunting quite a few years ago, just used a shunt and occasionally put a knot in the rope below me.

I still have my shunt and I have a WC Revo so I was thinking of using these, on separate rope strands. Any views on this?

climbkrisclimb 02 Nov 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Good Post, can I question why the micro trax is placed above the shunt? 

Sorry, I meant I'd have a setup with at least the microtrax but where abouts that is (i.e. above/below each other and whether attached from a chest harness/belay loop/sling off belay loop) depends on what the second device is. If it was a shunt then I agree would make sense having the shunt above the microtrax and would probably have the latter on a short sling (also so the shunt takes the initial load before the microtrax starts aggressively grabbing the rope)

climbkrisclimb 02 Nov 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> I still have my shunt and I have a WC Revo so I was thinking of using these, on separate rope strands. Any views on this?

As above, I like the idea of having at least 1 bomb-proof aggressive device. A potential problem, particularly if a shunt and Revo at the same level, is there may be some obscure way that they knock against each other to keep each other "open". The chances of that happening are extremely slim (but still). From a personal perspective I do like the idea of having 1 primary strand (with a bomber setup of 2 devices) and 1 "Holy crap, I'm luck I overdid the redundancy" strand (with 1 non-aggressive device on).

Something which I neglected to mention above and doesn't seem like anyone else has when top-role soloing is weighting the bottom of the rope(s) to save you manually pulling the slack though. 

 oldie 03 Nov 2020
In reply to climbkrisclimb:

I find the plethora of solo top rope threads useful as I'm in a drawn out process of deciding what system to use for protection (on fairly easy stuff). All systems seem to have have issues but I reckon I'll settle for a RollNLok which will slide up with me and regard just knots as my second back up "device". Ideally I'd like to clip into a knot on the bight every few feet but this might be impractical since, as you say, I'd want to weight the rope (actually wercat also mentioned this) for the RNL and would need a second sliding "device", unaffected by the first, which would be stopped by the last knot. Presumably an 8mm maillon is appropriate though even then my paranoid mind can envisage the nut somehow unscrewing. Possibly I could back the maillon up with a small loop of strong cord/rope (it would be unlikely to melt as it wouldn't be under tension during falling) or instead even utilise an old fig of eight descendeur or belay plate slot. I'd aim to use my existing dynamic rope, thus impact wouldn't be a problem. Obviously on short pitches I could have two strands from the one rope and be able to clip into knots on a separate strand if I wanted.


 

 HeMa 03 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

For toprope solo a shunt is still a good contender, especially if you have an anchor available (or tree) and don't play it safe. Just rig an abseil and then shunt on both strands. Really easy to stop, simply go down and pull the rope. The major con is that is either strand breaks -> yer gonna crater.

As where I climb, access to the top is often trivial, so I use an older (retired from leading) dynamic rope or a static one. Fixed as a single to the anchor. My primary device is Camp Lift with a bungee and a short sling to keep at chest level. Imho the Lift lock better than Shunt (and you really can't jam it to unluck like a Shunt) or the toothed clamps (like Mini/Micro-Traxion etc.).

I do use a backup (trailing from the belay loop with a 10cm dynaama sling) such as a Kong Duck or any other well moving "clamp".

Don't do lead solo, so can't comment on it.

2
 jcking231 03 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

I did quite a lot of research on this earlier in the year so that I could climb outdoors a bit more when partners weren't available and gyms were still shut.

I ended up with a shunt as a primary device and a microtraxion backup. The shunt is connected to my harness via a maillon (shoutout Dave Macleod) to avoid any crossloading issues, and loosely held up by a sling around my chest connected to the maillon to minimise the risk of devices colliding.

Both devices feed really smoothly and it doesn't take too long to setup. I'd say the only advantage a GriGri has over a shunt/microtraxion is how easy it is to descend again. Sometimes topping out can be a little awkward depending on how you have to setup your anchor, and switching to an abseil system is only easy if you have the luxury of a second strand of rope to transition to but this is going to be the case for any device you use that doesn't have a descend mode.

(There's loads of great info on all of this in a facebook group called "Top Rope Solo Climbing" btw)

 nikoid 03 Nov 2020
In reply to Ceiriog Chris:

> A duck, far stronger. 

Have a like from me for being factually correct.

OP wilkie14c 03 Nov 2020
In reply to jcking231:

From previous experience and with an element of ‘new thinking’ I’m going to go for a shunt and micro trax as you described. 

I did a lot of shunting years ago and never had issue but can’t for the life of me (!) understand why I never used a secondary device as a back up? 

I watched Dave Mc shunting video too, it’s a good shout if anyone is interested 

 muppetfilter 03 Nov 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

The rescuescender is vulnerable to the same mechanisms of failure as the shunt in that they both work in the same way. The rescuescender is  more profitable for petzl than the Shunt .

1
 darbs 03 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

> Been a few years since I’ve done any shunting, doing laps in the Lancs quarries mainly.

> I’ve a few highish problems I’d like to tick but combinations of bad landings, height and no spotters means I can’t justify just going for it, would rather get moves wired than claim an OS. Is the shunt still king or are there now better options? Can’t find my shunt anywhere so in the market for one of anybody has one furloughed away! 

I've a spare if you send me your address you can have it gratis..

OP wilkie14c 03 Nov 2020
In reply to darbs:

A shunt? wow that is so generous! Let me know your preferred MRT and I’ll gladly donate a few quid on your behalf! 

Just heading out with the dog, PM in about an hour 😁

 jcking231 04 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Awesome. It'd be interesting to hear how you get on with it, particularly if you come across any issues I haven't found with that setup.

It's been mentioned a couple of times on here too but for the smoothest feeding it's best to weight the rope too. I find my climbing bag with a bottle of water and any unused gear is usually sufficient

 PaulJepson 04 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

This thread has got me wanting to try TR soloing. 

If one does not have a static rope, does a single ~10mm rope work okay as long as any edges are protected or is it better to have a static?

Would a Shunt at top and something like a Kong Duck or Micro Traxion below as a backup work on a single rope?

 Hammy 04 Nov 2020

I use a Petzl Basic ascender with a chest strap/bungee to keep it high and a weighted rope to keep things snug. I tried using a MicroTraxion but it’s really fiddly to adjust your position on the rope - really easy with the Basic. Bear in mind that there must be  no slack in the system or the teeth may severely damage or sever the rope, so you have to be watching it all closely. I always have an escape plan and the equipment to do this (sling, descender etc.) Also choosing a suitable straight up route is important. 

1
 UKB Shark 04 Nov 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

>  I’ve done a little bit of shunting quite a few years ago, just used a shunt and occasionally put a knot in the rope below me.

I find it less fiddly to clove hitch krabs into the trailing rope

 HeMa 05 Nov 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

the answer is yes and yes.

that being said, if only using one rope, it is crucial that it will not go over any sharp edges.

and adding a solid piece (or clipping a bolt) just after the lip on the actual wall as a directional is smart anyway. Oh, and tie to rope to said piece. have a look at Daves video about tr soloing.

1
 street_alex 06 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

I’ve also been using a shunt and micro traction, using two rope strands, one device in each. Interested in this point on placing micro trax below shunt. When using two ropes this would mean trialing the traxion below the shunt, I assume, rather than pushing it up the rope around face height, which is what I do now. Shunt attached to belay loop via a mailon. This has got me thinking... in my set up presumably the shunt was my acting as my redundancy when actually you want to traxion to be the redundancy and the shunt to be the lead progress capture device?

OP wilkie14c 06 Nov 2020
In reply to street_alex:

I’m thinking on the lines of 2 rope strands down the route (i’m talking short grit routes here) using one strand for climbing and one for abbing. I’ll have a free rope to escape on this way. Using both strands would see me having to tie weight to both ropes at the bottom so there is tension in the ropes for the devices to run properly. Only using one strand would only need to add weight to that one strand. 
Shunt being the top device, held upright with the neck bungie arrangement. attached to harness belay loop via mailon. back up device being a micro trax below the shunt and attached via a short sling (QD sling?) to the shunt and belay loop mailon. this should see separation of the 2 devices.  Micro trax attached to the QD sling at the other end with another mailon. Micro trax will trail below the shunt and if the shunt fails, micro trax is the back up. 

I understand  that there is no redundancy regarding rope failure in this system so care needed where rope goes over the edge of the crag. I’ll most likely rig with static and have the masterpoint over the edge so no rubbing at the crag edge for the climbing, dynamic rope. 

 PhilMW 06 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

In regards to using the Micro Traxion surely in a fall the teeth would cause rope damage if not rope failure. Obviously the fall distance wouldn't be much as there wouldn't be much slack in the system but still....

I've been thinking about a reliable setup for a while now and would like to know if instead of a micro trax use a Camp ascender instead as well as a shunt?

Or if the rope is doubled, two camp devices and a shunt? or is that overkill?

1
 HeMa 06 Nov 2020
In reply to PhilMW:

rope failure is highly unlikely even with toothed stuff, like mini/micro-traxion, certain ascenders etc. But it can mess up the sheath rendering the rope useless afterwards.


How ever, if you rig the setup properly with minimal slack, even this is a non-issue.


That being said, I do prefer non teethed stuff like Camp Lift.  

 jcking231 06 Nov 2020
In reply to PhilMW:

A toothed device will only shred the rope if you're taking a long dynamic fall onto it, hence why you wouldn't use it for lead rope soloing.

For top rope solo you'll be falling the length of your carabiner so it won't cause any damage. You can improve that further by using a sling around your chest to ensure the device moves with you rather than trailing below, at which point you're effectively taking a completely static fall

Post edited at 17:22
 Jonny 10 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Another +1 for the CT RollnLock. Great little device, and easy on the sheath too. I use these for simulclimbing and the occasional top-rope solo on ice. If you weight the bottom of the rope, the device slides up on its own most of the time.

 oldie 10 Nov 2020
In reply to UKB Shark:

> I find it less fiddly to clove hitch krabs into the trailing rope <

Doesn't that prevent using a weight on the rope near the bottom to allow the primary device to run freely? Perhaps I've misunderstood the setup though.

 DADAXYX#6707 10 Nov 2020
In reply to Mark Haward:

Hi Mark,

Thank you for sharing this.

Could you help me understand further on how the device failed as I'm struggling to visualise it.

As you went to raise your arm above the device did you unintentionally push back/up the lever in which you clip in to ?

Any thoughts or pictures would be really helpful as i also use the system.

Cheers

   

 Mark Haward 10 Nov 2020
In reply to DADAXYX#6707:

Hi,

It all happened very fast so I can't be definitive. Two things are likely to have caused the device to 'fail', both due to my error.

    Firstly, leaning back and straightening my back could have had the effect of pulling the 'necklace' attached to the shunt and 'opening' the shunt as if I were moving it up the rope. This may have been the initial release.

    I then instinctively grabbed the rope in front of me ( above the device ) which would have taken some of my weight off the shunt / rope again causing a free fall.

   I still use a shunt but have a back up device below it (microtraxion or jumar ). 

Hope this helps.

 HeMa 10 Nov 2020
In reply to oldie:

Not really. 
 

Provided you didn’t add the bathtub as weight. 
 

actually doing a clovehitch one handed on a crab might be easier than a simply bight. 
 

for referense, a few cams etc is enough weight. 

 oldie 10 Nov 2020
In reply to HeMa:

Thanks. I'm still probably not understanding the setup.

I'm visualizing single rope, primary device with necklace running easily up, possibly an easy running secondary device, then backup knots tied at intervals. These knots linked to harness with krab on cloves or bights, in which case  a weight at the bottom would hang from the harness and not aid the running of the device unless new weights were hung on the slack rope between the knots and the device(s).

I'd imagined it would be easier to have as backup a krab/maillon etc on the harness free running on the rope which, if the devices failed, would be stopped by the last knot tied. The weight would remain hanging from the devices the entire time.     (NB I've no personal experience of using these systems yet.)

 HeMa 10 Nov 2020
In reply to oldie:

No. You just tie the backup knots (with a bight or crab) on the rope. You’re not clippin’ on it. 
 

if your primary device Fails, it’ll slide down on the rope until you hit a knot. Then the fall will be arrested. 
 

and Yes, some might add the maillon as a secundary ”device”

 MischaHY 11 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

The setup that works well for me when working projects on my own is simply a microtraxion on a DMM oval screwgate (12kn even when crossloaded) with a 120cm sling as a chest harness and a backup knot somewhere on the rope below. I coil a bit of the remaining rope and tie it off so it hangs free, and this then feeds excellently. I use this even on quite steep terrain and it works flawlessly. If I need to move around I have a CT jumar with a built in pulley, and a grigri for abseiling. I've regularly used this system to work routes on my own and it's such an effective method of getting a route wired and ready for redpoint goes when you don't always have regular partners.

I don't bother with a second device, just a backup knot in the case of the only reasonable failure mode with the microtrax (you somehow manage to disengage the teeth) which is basically never going to happen as it's pretty much fixed in place when using the chest harness. 

Hope this helps!   

 PaulJepson 11 Nov 2020
In reply to wilkie14c:

Has anyone used the Petzl Microcender for soloing? Looks like it might be perfect on a single-rope setup. 

 HeMa 11 Nov 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

Camp lift is better. Which is also my main device. 

 UKB Shark 12 Nov 2020
In reply to oldie:

> Doesn't that prevent using a weight on the rope near the bottom to allow the primary device to run freely? Perhaps I've misunderstood the setup though.

Depends on how much weight you have. I aim to have sufficient so the device runs freely but not so much that I cant pull up a bit of slack to clove hitch a krab at rests (sometimes standing on the rope whilst doing so). Certainly easier doing this than tying a knot which was the tip I was responding to.

 UKB Shark 12 Nov 2020
In reply to UKB Shark:

Sorry. Now see this has already been answered by HeMa


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