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UK cam reslinging

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 Alpenglow 06 May 2020

Is there anywhere in the UK that reslings cams?

I have some Wild Country helium friends that need reslinging but I don't think WC offer a reslinging service...

Do WC have any plan in the future to offer a reslinging service?

 Andrew Lodge 06 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

I tried to get some WC cams reslung a couple of years ago, they told me they no longer offered the service and had no plans to resume it. Sorry

 deepsoup 06 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

I don't think you'll find anyone in the EU (or half way out of the EU) who'll do it I'm afraid. 

It's to do with the PPE regulations apparently.  As I understand it because the cam and the sling are a single indivisible unit the company who sew the sling on can't assume responsibility for the sling alone, they have to take responsibility for the whole thing.  And realistically that means it can only be done by the manufacturer of the cam, and then only before its arbitrary 'sell by' date.

Doesn't bother the Americans though, if you have the time and don't mind paying the postage to send them off for a little holiday in California?  Otherwise it comes down to one of the DIY fixes, or new cams.  (DMM ones, perhaps.)

In reply to Alpenglow:

These people do it: 

https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product/replacement-cam-hex-slings/

Between 5GBP & 6.50GBP each & shipping

You'll need to post your cams to New Zealand though. 

 Richard Horn 07 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

Use 5mm or 6mm sailing rope? (strong varieties like dyneema). You would have to tie a knot which I guess is not quite as ideal.

 oldie 07 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

If you want to consider USA reslinging firms there are references to some in a recent thread.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/how_can_you_tell_the_age_of_equiment... 

 brianjcooper 07 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

> Is there anywhere in the UK that reslings cams?

> I have some Wild Country helium friends that need reslinging but I don't think WC offer a reslinging service...

> Do WC have any plan in the future to offer a reslinging service?

No they don't. and sadly, it begs the question. Why buy Wild Country cams when they have no intention of reslinging them anymore? It was one of the reasons I bought DMM who do, and their Dragons are great. As is their after sale service.

Post edited at 20:34
2
 spenser 07 May 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

They can't make money on the service anymore given that they have moved all technical and production staff out of the UK.

I started buying my rack in the middle of the recall which they did for rocks back in 2016 so I didn't wind up buying my cams from them.

Post edited at 21:21
 brianjcooper 07 May 2020
In reply to spenser:

> They can't make money on the service anymore given that they have moved all technical and production staff out of the UK.

> I started buying my rack in the middle of the recall which they did for rocks back in 2016 so I didn't wind up buying my cams from them.

I was also told one of the problems was they didn't own the textile machinery for reslinging the cams. I had lengthy, but got me nowhere, emails with WC. 

 Jamie Wakeham 07 May 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

> Why buy Wild Country cams when they have no intention of reslinging them anymore?

I have to wonder if people buying WC cams realise that they are manufacturer-defined as out of servicable life and effectively unrepairable (without resorting to one of the US or NZ firms suggested) after five years?

DMM or Totem for me - both manufacturers will resling and repair.

 deepsoup 08 May 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I have to wonder if people buying WC cams realise that they are manufacturer-defined as out of servicable life and effectively unrepairable (without resorting to one of the US or NZ firms suggested) after five years?

Why five years?  They're "out of servicable life and effectively unrepairable" from the moment you buy them aren't they?  WC can't/won't resling them if you somehow damage the sling walking out of the shop with your brand new cam in your hand.

 beardy mike 08 May 2020
In reply to All:

The reason that they are not reslingable is because the parent company Oberalp decided for whatever reason that they do not want to maintain any textile manufacturing base in Europe owned by the group. Therefore there are no sewing facilities currently owned by Wild Country at their base in Italy. Personally I think that this is a massive strategic mistake but it is what it is. 

On the flip side, the slings are massively strong - they are by far the strongest part of the system and bar mechanical damage, it is unlikely that they would fail within the serviceable lifetime of the unit. Of course there are reslinging services available in the States. IMO the need for reslinging is often overstated here, but I do understand that there are occasions when it is needed. I guess each individual needs to make their own mind up on this when buying a set...

In reply to brianjcooper:

The times I've looked at a cam and thought that needs re-slinging I've decided the rest of the cam is probably just as shagged and bought a new unit. If you get anywhere between 5-10 years out of a cam why would you not be looking to replace!? Chances are there's something newer and shinier to buy.

I'm a bit biased but I like the Friends as, I think, they take the best bits of a few units on the market and make a superb camming unt. 

My 2 pence anway.

1
 Jamie Wakeham 08 May 2020
In reply to deepsoup:

The documentation gives a 'conservative' five year life span for textile parts.  I'm absolutely certain that Mike is right and slings (that haven't been compromised by some mechanical, chemical or UV damage) remain perfectly strong enough.

However, if you do any insured work with your gear, you need to stick to the manufacturer's guidance or you risk your insurer not paying out. So for me these cams would become unusable on their fifth anniversary of first use.  A set of Dragons could be re-slung at 5 and 9.5 years and give almost 15 years of service.  Given the price of cams I want to get the most out of them - yes, newer ones are a bit lighter and nicer to use, but actually my 11 year old Camalots are still pretty good too.

Also, slings do occasionally get damaged, and it's nice to know that they can be replaced if that happens. 

It's a great shame because I agree - WC cams are really good.

 deepsoup 08 May 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Ah, I see what you mean.  Thanks for the explanation.

1
 beardy mike 08 May 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I totally take your point about insured work... like I say, it's really not ideal. Maybe something that the UK distributors need to drum into Oberalp.

OP Alpenglow 08 May 2020
In reply to beardy mike:

Seperate to my own personal rack of 7x helium friends that I'll probably try the 'Chris Tan' solution on as linked above, I'm currently speccing a rack of climbing gear for our scout group.

I was orginally going to go with the new WC friends as on paper they look ideal, however I've just changed to DMM Dragons as without reslinging we'd have to throw away the WC friends after 5 years, but I can send the dragons for reslinging.

I also messaged WC yesterday regarding progress on reslinging. Their reply:

"Unfortunately, we do not have any facilities capable to carry out any re-slinging. We are working on this issue in order to be able to provide this kind of service in the future, so please keep an eye on our website for any further development on this matter. As for now, please bear in mind that we recommend that all of our technical hardware is retired after 10 years, 5 years for all the soft goods (slings, harnesses etc.)...

...unfortunately, I cannot provide a precise timeline. We advise against homemade reslinging, but there are a number of shops and services that carry out this repair. Your local climbing shop might be a good starting point."

In reply to beardy mike:

Swift dig

Dont worry, I raise it everytime.

 Andy Hardy 08 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

Just thinking aloud here, but could you cut off the old tape, and fit a maillon / slingdraw combo in its place?

Edit spelling

Post edited at 18:17
OP Alpenglow 08 May 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I could do, but there's a Black Diamond technical guide floating around that shows the effect of a thin sling on the thumb loop, where it damages the thumb loop in a fall as the smaller surface area has more pressure.

https://eu.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_GB/qc-labreslinging-camalots-and-c3...

I'm hoping that the 'Chris Tan' solution will avoid that by doubling the sling around the loop means there is more load bearing surface area and less pressure on the thumb loop.

http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/ReslingCams/Resling.htm

In an ideal world, I'd just buy some new cams, but having 7 Helium friends, and new cams being about £60+ each, it seems stupid to throw £450 worth of cams out just because WC can't be bothered to offer a cam reslinging service unlike every single other cam manufacturer out there...

Safe to say, I massively regret buying WC friends, and won't do in the future.

Post edited at 19:55
In reply to Alpenglow:

You could look at things a little more pragmatically...

The sling when new would be rated to 22kn.

The cam when new would be rated to 12-14kn.

Just because the cam is five years old that does not mean the sling will magically reduce its strength to the extent that it will break in a normal climbing fall. 

My understanding is it rare/unlikely for a fall to put an impact on a runner, greater than  10kn. Most falls involve much lower impacts. 

Unless either the sling, or the cam is visibly knackered, it will be more than strong enough. 

Happy to be proven wrong, by someone with more knowledge than me. 

Post edited at 20:50
 beardy mike 08 May 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick:

Good. Keep it up.

 ModerateMatt 08 May 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

It might be worth rereading the "documentation" wild country say "5 years from date of first use or 10 years from date of first 
storage for textile components".

Nowadays most manufacturers are saying 10 years from date of manufacture. They only say that because when they test products above ten years the results have a higher variability. I understand that organisations and individuals have liability for those in their care so would choose to dispose of older kit but for everyone else if it looks fairly decent it's most likely fine. 

 Jamie Wakeham 08 May 2020
In reply to ModerateMatt:

I don't quite understand what you're saying I need to re-read?  WC do indeed say "five years from date of first use... for textile components".  So five years after the first time I placed that cam, the manufacturer is saying that it's out of serviceable lifespan, and I can no longer use it in an instructing context, and there's no OEM remedy available.

Quite a few are now saying ten years - in fact I bought a set of CAMP helmets in 2007, with a stated 5 year life span, but by 2011 CAMP were be rating the same helmets at 10 years. A few emails and they agreed that my helmets were essentially identical and I should treat then as having the 10 year span, which was quite a pleasing outcome.

But WC still say 5 years on these slings, so regardless of whether they're actually still sound (almost certainly) they have to go. I'm b#ggered if I'm ending up explaining to an insurance company/judge/coroner that I used kit beyond the manufacturer's stated lifespan for the sake of a few quid for new slings.

 Jamie Wakeham 08 May 2020
In reply to Alpenglow:

In fact, this is interesting. WC say 5 years for textiles and 10 years for metal components.  DMM say 10 years textile and no limit for metal.

 brianjcooper 08 May 2020
In reply to Euan McKendrick:

> The times I've looked at a cam and thought that needs re-slinging I've decided the rest of the cam is probably just as shagged and bought a new unit. If you get anywhere between 5-10 years out of a cam why would you not be looking to replace!? Chances are there's something newer and shinier to buy.

> I'm a bit biased but I like the Friends as, I think, they take the best bits of a few units on the market and make a superb camming unt. 

> My 2 pence anway.

My issue is that the sling could be damaged way before the end of useful life of the metal part of the unit and you can't repair it. Even once.

OP Alpenglow 08 May 2020
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

The cams vary from between 5 & 7 years old, and from the slings having minimal apparent wear for the lesser used sizes, to furred up slings as the image below:

https://imgur.com/a/n7xk6kk

In reply to brianjcooper:

Ye true, or your b***end of a partner could wedge your nice, shiny new cam into a crack and never get it back...... we no longer climb together. 

 brianjcooper 09 May 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> In fact, this is interesting. WC say 5 years for textiles and 10 years for metal components.  DMM say 10 years textile and no limit for metal.

I noticed that after reading the attached DMM documentation for a sling. You would think the 'industry' would be more consistent.

 beardy mike 09 May 2020
In reply to brianjcooper:

To be fair, there are no standard recommendations because each company is responsible for certifying it's products and issuing usage instructions. Just like Metolius deems 10kN to be sufficient for protection, whilst DMM prefer 14kN. Manufacturers take their own approach on just about everything and as long as they fall with in the CE standard testing (which is to be fair not usually very hard to achieve) they can do as they please within that frame work.

 brianjcooper 09 May 2020
In reply to beardy mike:

> To be fair, there are no standard recommendations because each company is responsible for certifying it's products and issuing usage instructions. Just like Metolius deems 10kN to be sufficient for protection, whilst DMM prefer 14kN. Manufacturers take their own approach on just about everything and as long as they fall with in the CE standard testing (which is to be fair not usually very hard to achieve) they can do as they please within that frame work.

I guess that makes sense. I suppose it's up to each of us which we prefer.


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