UKC

Many UKCers will have picked up on this, but, if you haven't, do click on this link

https://www.savethelakedistrict.com/

The video which is embedded in the page shows what is happening, and shocking it is in our premier national park and world heritage site. It makes me wonder just how thick a skin you must have to pursue such activities in such an area when pretty much everyone you'll meet during your outing will be disgusted with what you're doing, even if legally you're within your rights. 

People who run B&Bs in the area are becoming very concerned about the number of their clients who say they'll avoid Little Langdale in future, and farmers' lives are being made even more difficult.

JANUARY: the farmer at High Tilberthwaite, whose farm has been particularly affected by recreational 4x4s, has now given up the tenancy of this National Trust farm. The damaged track prevents him from taking up feed to his stock, and the constant traffic through the farmyard makes running the farm extremely difficult.

A disturbing video, and I agree with your comments on these vandals. Petition signed, and I'll write an email later.

Its in a dreadful state. I wonder if the guy who posted the video on youtube knows its being used for this campaign? I had a near miss with a kanku convoy once. Every cliche you might imagine from the fast show

What a truly appalling video. I'm afraid that I posted a rather rude comment. 

IEDs are not always a bad thing....

In all fairness though an ugly spectacle, I could not say that I thought those drivers did anything particularly wrong. And the visual obtrusivness is no worse than Bays Brown campsite when busy or Wall End farm, all the time, which is a disgrace.
Sadly Langdale, Catbells, Seathwaite (in Borrowdale) and certain spots are becoming victims of the their popularity and possibly a park and ride scheme or whatever maybe required.

http://kankku.co.uk/about-kankku.html:

"PROTECTING THE PARK

"FRAGILE EARTH

"KANKKU works with the terrain; our intelligent driving techniques ensure you respect the spectacular landscape as you explore.

"With a Kankku off road driving experience, you will learn how intelligent driving techniques allow you to tread lightly on our magnificent landscape, helping to preserve and protect historical trails for future generations."

Ha!

A proper public transport system for the Lakes including park and rides, planned connections etc funded by a congestion charge and a tourist tax is in my view view much overdue.  Locals need their cars, for many others, particularly in Summer and on Easter weekend, public transport would be viable done right.

The whataboutery didn't take long. I wonder how long before "first they came for the off-roaders..." .

The Bus Service is horrendously expensive. For myself and my Wife, Langdale to Castlerigg, something like £20, but some special saver deal, £15 for unlimited all day transport, in "Central Lake" but would not get us from Langdale to Castelrigg. Also note that busses seem to be full of pensioners, who are not paying. It does need sorting out. I would favour a £1 bed tax, that would include Campsites, Hostels, Climbing Huts as well as Hotels and Self Catering, ring fenced to provide a bus service.
 

Those guys in the video are like shit versions of the 'Wilderdouche'.

http://gawker.com/5980261/artisanal-manliness-for-fun-and-profit

Who are save the Lake District?

Agreed, the Swiss do this kind of thing and it works well.

Is it REALLY the PREMIER national park? Really?

Leaves more room for the 4x4 drivers then and Client profile mayl change, B&B's will still be full

4x4 drivers using legal tracks to have their fun, climbers walking up hills to crags, on paths, to have their fun, both causing scar on landscape and erosion - more climbers/walkers than 4x4 drivers - who causes the most erosion in the lakes (not just isolated area but across the whole lakes area)

Ah - so you'd get rid of Pensioners' bus passes, would you? Nice.

(Hint: they have already paid, via a lifetime of paying taxes.)

Either nationalise the bus service or do away with free pensioner bus passes then - if you take a seat pay for it - fairest way.

This is a very good book:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ecodefense-Field-Monkeywrenching-Dave-Foreman/dp/0...

Taxation is not a savings scheme. Current taxpayers pay for bus passes for retirees. Their tax has already been spent.

I know what taxation is, and I don't want to further derail the thread. I was merely objecting to what I consider a rather nasty point of view. But I won't comment further on it.

It's the only one that's got world heritage status.

I'm not an expert but I think you'd need a lot of walkers to create the same amount of damage to the fellside as a 2Te 4x4, driven by Wayne Kerr of the West Midlands. I'm not sure that Wayne is that bothered about staying in Langdale, it's trashing it he gets his kicks from.

My works van is a 4x4. It was a Defender, now a Hilux. After spending all week driving either, I couldn't think of anything worse than doing what they are doing. Times we've had people commenting on how good it must be to have a Defender as a works vehicle and I bet you love driving it off road,...........Err no!!

I'll speak up in defence of the guys at Kankku. I've driven on some South Lakes green lanes with them and I can tell you that they are extremely aware of the fragility of the environment and of their position as operators of 4x4 driving trips in the Lakes; it is their livelihood after all. They tailor their trips to avoid sensitive areas and they only use established, hard tracks where the passage of a vehicle leaves no trace, in other words lanes without tarmac. They would certainly not force their way through mud or impassable sections using winches. For me Kankku represents the aware, concerned face of off road driving. The bozos in that linked video do not; they insisted on showing off their axle articulation while scouring out the gully with their rear offside wheels and just deepening a terribly eroded gully. I'm not surprised the Kankku guy became impatient, the bozos were drving without skill or sensitivity and blocking the green lane in the background. If you can't get up a lane, you ought to reverse off and go somewhere else.  You will meet drivers like that on four wheels or two all over the country and they are the same environmental vandals as van drivers who dump commercial waste in laybys.  

They don't like ring fencing taxes do they. Always sounds like a good idea to me.

Very depressing to watch. These people would probably enjoy the Thirlmere zip wire as another "challenge"

yes, let the poor stay at home and eat cake ...

It's a good question, I wondered the same thing. Couldn't see anything wrong with their pages though. A group of secret conservationists doesn't sound very sinister, though.

Just my opinion.

Can't decide if this is a joke.

Balderdash.

Do you draw the line anywhere? Jet skis on Buttermere OK with you?

One of their liveried vehicles could easily have flattened my mates kids walloping onto a narrow bridge in little langdale without looking. What they do isnt illegal, but thats as far as I'd go in their defence

Perhaps a change in the law needs to be pushed for, the world has moved on from horse & cart, so should access regulations.

Apart from the shoddy driving, the track looked like washed out bed rock, as much to do with NP/NT upland management policy, as 4x4 traffic. 

Wasn't suggesting otherwise, once a rut is started it gives the water somewhere to run off. More the question of why it also runs off so quickly at all. 

Edit. Here where we have a track we want to keep drivable in most weathers you need a drainage ditch on the uphill side, a few pipes where water courses cross, and a top dressing of biggish stone on the track(only on the wheel lines, not the middle) not always pretty but with small occasional ponds/pools, extra bushes or trees left around them it actual adds to the wildlife benefits.

Have a "Like" young man and I bet you would even give me your seat, unlike that other ungrateful nipper.

I won't even start on my hate of recreational 4x4 drivers in mid Wales - doctors orders, blood pressure and all that.

I wonder if the increase in traffic volume on that lane is due to the amount of lanes that have been closed or have TRO's on them on a temporary / permanent basis. 

There is plenty of room for everyone but unfortunately a combination of poor beheiviour by a minority and intolerance by a very vocal section of the red sock and woolley hat brigade = less and less places where drivers can go. 

It never used to be washed out bedrock, storm Desmond did a fair amount of damage to the tracks round there. If the 4x4 crowd really cared they would voluntarily have stopped using the track whilst they helped to repair it after the storm, but they don't really care as it is more fun as it is. Sorry to hear the farmer has given up.

The UK just needs to sort out its land access in general. Where folk on foot in many open places have stick to path or have no access, yet cars can still drive green lanes, when it should really be land owners access only if common sense was applied. 

I don't like it and am so happy that many  of the byeways in the Brecon Beacons are restricted now but.... the thousands upon thousands of cars that clog the roads, particularly in the summer, in the lake district and the total lack of management of the number of people visiting the park are what keep me away. Not some 4x4 drivers on a tiny bit of track.

Oh Yeah. I remember them. K*ntku

There must be loads of fly-tipped derelict industrial areas where the wankers can spin their wheels and play with their winches while their staffies curl one out. It's not like they need to cross the Gobi desert or actually go anywhere in their toys.

Sadly the 4x4 fraternity are proving themselves incapable of behaving responsibly as a group. It may be the minority but the damage they cause affects everybody else and it is unacceptable for people who live and work in an area to be driven out by those idiots. It is not intolerance to demand that people behave reasonably when passing through what is in effect their back gardens.

just a shout out to Trail Riders federation who do ride responsibly and have work parties maintaining green lanes such as the Old coach road subject to recent storm damage - we value the limited trails (compared to miles of footpaths) open to riders. (head lowered below the parapet again)

Watching the video i agree that there's a problem, 400 vehicles a month is way way to many, but as people say its not illegal. 

Though i reckon mountain bikes in sufficient numbers  can rapidly destroy sections of a path, and i don't want to see that go.

Maybe look at how the forestry commission handles stage rallies in Grizedale and such, a couple of times a year they use the road for that particular sport and part of the entry fee is used to pay for repair of the road surface and other maintenance conducted immediately after the event.

Done properly this might result in a better maintained surface than they'd manage just on national park funding and the 4x4 guys can still have their fun. 

Mountain Motorsports,

We should build a pre-tarmac era Pikes Peak style road up Snowdon and charge people to drive up it.  Could also open the Dun Fell radar station road to the paying public.

The F.C. handles stage rallies by charging an absolute f**kload to the organisers, to the point where lots of races have stopped and Wales Rally GB (GB stage of WRC) nearly disappeared due to the costs involved and that’s an international event.

As such I don’t think Keith with his jacked discovery would take kindly to having to pay £100 for his day in the lakes, but this may actually solve the problem and cut a lot of usage!

To quote the voice in the background "I ain't no one's fool"

Well mate... 

Horrifying. How can these f*ckers be allowed to do this?

Exactly.  When the law is no longer sufficient for the current situation it needs to be changed.  This 'I'm within my rights' argument is always the last resort when what's being done is indefensible on any moral or public interest grounds.  If the law hadn't kept up with evolving social attitudes there would still be bear-baiting and children going up chimneys.  

All of this may be true and perfectly reasonable, but are you seriously suggesting that the main issue demonstrated in the video is the inadequate public transport provision in High Tilberthwaite?

It's basically   a  road with a legal right for motor vehicles and, by and large the LDNP has the 'sport' reasonably managed with one way systems, protocols and where there are specific problems Traffic Regulation Orders.  I don't like either it but then again  it's easy to dislike a video like this zooming in on an event with a bunch of people who don't think like you do or do something you're not interest in. 

I fear that having shelled out £100 for his day of jacked up diesel powered frontier warrior role-play, Keith would be even more insufferable and entitled. Being within the law and having paid good money seems to justify anything.

I take your point that we must be careful of special pleading that only what we like doing should be allowed, but surely there must be some utilitarian calculus of the amount of damage and inconvenience caused balanced against the number of people participating?

Obviously, even walking in the hills causes a certain amount of damage and, in certain very sensitive environments, we don't permit even this.  In this case, it's perfectly obvious that the passage of even a few dozen vehicles causes a wholly disproportionate amount of damage to the track, quite apart from effectively excluding other uses and causing widespread disturbance.

It's not necessary, it's inappropriate, massively selfish and the track should be redesignated as a bridle path.

We don't have massive wilderness areas where offroaders can enjoy a genuine adventure (and even where they do, there are rules about where you can and can't drive).  Off-roading should be restricted to dedicated facilities on private land, subject to planning permission.  

As much as I hate these selfish w**kers, I'm not convinced that either of the trails have changed that much in the last 20 years. I'm pretty sure that the bedrock visible in the video was just as exposed prior to storm Desmond - because every year I try and ride up that section on my MTB - with varying degrees of success.

I think objections to 4x4s/motorbikes should focus on the noise and the fumes they generate - if you are out for a walk or a ride and come across a convoy of them it does rather take away from the tranquility and fresh air that the rest of us seek. Every sympathy with the tenant at High Tilberthwaite you has to endure that on a regular basis.  

I came across this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=H8Afm1HuQAM&

It's from the point of view of the idiots who go offroad, but it does show how to annoy them. Block the paths with trees. It would be a shame if this accidentally got copied by other "hikers".

a few years ago I was baby sitting a field trip at Mam Tor and sitting eating my butties at the end of the road. A few off road types came down the road towards the humongous land slip heading for the old Castleton road. When they reached the fence before the end of the remaining tarmac they stopped got out, marched around a bit and then had an almighty self righteous bleat, culminating in shouting to the wind that it was a disgrace and they were going to call the Green Lane Association (sic) because the road was blocked. 

Cheese and pickle as I recall

It is probably worth noting that a percentage of "the 4x4 crowd" do volunteer to help with repairs, a percentage of walkers and climbers do the same but that percentage is small in both cases. Unless you actively assist as a walker or climber it is hard to claim the moral high ground on these grounds.

Are you talking about maintaining the byways for vehicles in the same way that footpaths are maintained?

There seems to be a difference between the green laning shown in promoted material (like green lane association) and videos of morons. Some of the "green lanes" the GLA show are in better state than many of the country lanes around my house - and certainly better than you'll encounter exploring the less busy parts of Scotland (even Islay). Whereas the idiot videos show people attempting what are now nothing more than wide footpaths.

I'm not sure why anyone who wants to be out in the countryside, albeit in a car, really wants to be part of ruining it. It would be like driving to a crag just to fly tip. And then having a hobby of visiting untidy crags.

I guess that the difficulty thing is a bit like chasing grades in climbing?

In practice a few rock steps on bedrock may not be a problem as long as the drainage around them is managed to prevent further erosion?

I cause a lot less erosion off road than someone in a 4x4 or trail bike, it's quite easy to claim the moral high ground (I haven't eroded away as much of it).

You might think you look good teetering on your wee pinnacle of superiority but you don't look very convincing from here

Burn the heretic. 

I do love how this forum kicks off every time a land owner restricts access to a crag. Vehicles have access to a tiny tiny part of the country side, yes they cause noise and disruption but its in a handful of tiny areas. 

20 years ago I owned a 1960's land rover and used to enjoy both organised quarries to play in and ad hoc messing about on disused ground. I can't say for the rest of the country but in the Leeds area everywhere but 1 place I went now has a housing estate on it. 

Green laning was never my thing. I preferred the more extreme stuff that took a combination of skill and physical effort to get an old vehicle like mine though. 

Physical effort? What, like putting your right foot down on the accelerator? Wow, radical, you must really have been pushing it back then, what a guy.

I'm talking about redesignating obviously inappropriate BOATs as bridleways.  I accept that where a BOAT is retained for motorised access it should probably be properly maintained but there's also the issue of heavy use of such tracks and indeed unclassified roads where they run close to habitation.  Even tarmac lanes can have weight or residents only restrictions imposed where the level of use is inappropriate and is causing a nuisance.  

There's a clutch and two gear boxes. And climbing in and out of the thing.

Sarcasm is the lowest form, etc. etc.

Old Land Rovers take considerable effort to drive; they have no power steering and no spring assistance to the heavy clutch pedal. They leak, they are cold and drafty and they boumce on their cart springs. Driving one of those off road is tiring and takes skill because they don't have the massive axle articulation of those ridiculous macho vehicles in the video so you have to rely on momentum, good gear choice and good route choice. 

I do love how anyone who raises an issue that you might just about imagine would be of some vague concern to the users of this forum gets dismissed as the red sock wooly hat brigade, (Not something I'd ever thought of Jon as but you learn something new every day). It's political correctness gone mad I tell you.

While you're on the subject of landowners, what about the tenant farmers?  

BTW, Woppo seems to have garnered 4 likes (1 from me FWIW) and no dislikes. There is a world of difference between a few trials riders in Lochaber and this bunch of clowns making the farmers life impossible, irrespective how much it offends the sensibilities of people with map cases twirling round their necks.

They have access almost everywhere; the very furthest point you can get from a road in the UK is, what, 6.5 miles, in the remotest part of remote Wester Ross. I imagine in England it's much, much less.

What a load of tosh. Walking up the hill would take far more effort.

West of Alston you can get about 3.5 miles away from a public road or apparently any track going off the OS maps.  Plenty of areas around Kielder are further from a public road, but there are lots of forestry tracks.

Edit:  Recent aerial photos show a couple of dirt tracks to grouse shooting boxes not on the OS maps, but they’re not open to 4x4ers.

Other than use on farms, motorised vehicles have no place here ,there must be plenty of disused quarries etc. for this "sport" to be practised. Why dont these " One life ,live it" individuals get a life!

The island of Tresco, in the Scilly Isles, is rather hard to reach by 4x4.

Driving old Landies over difficult terrain is surprisingly physical in a way that modern off roaders like Hi-Luxes, Discos etc aren't. Still doesn't make you Joss Naylor though.

A couple of points:

If you've ever taken a balloon or light aircraft flight or even on approach to an airport you will look down on a landscape that is scarred by all kinds of man-made features including surprising numbers of fields where motocrossers have been practicing and agricultural vehicles have torn up the land. The damage done by leisure 4x4 driving is miniscule by comparison but attracts disproportionate attention because it happens in areas that walkers seem to view as their exclusive playground. 

When mountain biking grew big in the 90s I remember endless arguments exactly the same as this led by the red-sock brigade who were resentful at the wheeled incursion into their private playground. As with 4x4 driving, the balance was spoiled by an irresponsible minority who rode footpaths and blasted through boggy areas leaving big linear tracks as evidence of their disregard for the law. Mountain biking has now peaked as cyclists move over to the cleaner, fitter, more subtle pleasures of the road and many of the remaining mountain bikers have moved on to purpose-built trail centres. In the same way, I believe 4x4 driving is doomed as DIY repairable vehicles with chassis and simple mechanical systems become extinct and are replaced with modern, monocoque vehicles that can only be repaired with a computer and rely on complex electronic gizmos rather than brute strength to drive off road. Those kinds of vehicles simply will not be able to be modified for extreme axle articulation and will not come with transfer boxes giving low crawler gears. 

National parks are there to:

1. Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage
2. Promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of national parks by the public

4x4ing while currently legal in these locations is clearly entirely counter to both objectives.  The same is not true of (legal) mountain biking.

As has been said, driving an old Land Rover off road (a series III LIghtweight in my case) is bloody hard work and hugely rewarding. 

There is a time and place for it - and part of the fun is finding little used BOATs etc to take your wheezing astmathic Friday afternoon job as screwed together by half arsed Brummies. 

The wankers, are the ones who just don't give a shit. they will happily mash theirs along the old road above Dent (no mercifully in receipt of a TRO), off Mastilles Lane, or the tracks around Vyrnwy and Claerwern. The latter are legal and many now resemble Paschendaelle. 

How hard is it to stand back tell yourself it's a massively fooked rutted, track that unusable by anyone outsdie of the Royal Tank Regiment, so play elsewhere. 

In what way is this relevant to anything?

It was in riposte to the sarcastic post by subtle a few posts above.

Yes I do know that and fully appreciate their efforts. I also actively assist as a walker and climber so can justifiably take the moral high ground. Idiots on all sides spoil things for others, but 4x4 idiots spoil things much faster for everybody. 

Edit: p.s. For the record I am not against responsible 4x4 use in legal locations. For some it is the only way to access these areas, e.g. handicapped. I'm only against the idiots who wreck it for everybody else.

I think you make a lot of very generalised and not entirely accurate assumptions.

What rights does one group have to try and stop another from carrying out its rights and freedom to undertake its hobby.  None.  If one wants to stop one group, then please ensure the same energy is put into trying to ban other groups from their past times too.  Some people might not like what they do, but they might not like what we do either. Climbers and the BMC fight hard for access rights so we can continue our past time, and stop nature taking over by cleaning and bolting rock.  Why shouldn't another group be allowed to fight for its rights.   If you looks at the GLASS site, 4x4 drivers pool resources to raise funds to refurbish green lanes.  Just like climbers/BMC pool resources to maintain access to land and repair crags. 

https://www.glass-uk.org/
Let's all get along with everyone rather than trying to stop things that they are legally carrying out. 
I hate dogs and the warm black  bags that their owners hang on trees or leave in ditches, but I accept people are allowed to own dogs. 

What a load twaddle. Pro hunting groups should have same rights as anti-hunting?

Racists the same rights to be racist, as those opposed to it.

You can't blanket give everyone the same right to do what they want, there has to be some sense to it. If my hobby is walking in the quiet hills, and yours is driving loudly in the hills making an unsightly mess, how to you reconcile the two. You messy loud driving can be done in purpose built places.

It the same mentality that has remove "nuisance" skateboarding kids from terrorising old ladies on pavements by giving them skate parks. Give the green roaders some old quarries to play in, and make sure there is some environmental tax for the pointless wasting of fuel!

Of course they do.  If one group is doing something that affects another (in this case the whole of society) there needs to be a balance found.  Here that balance should include not permanently destroying rural lanes,  not forcing a farmer out of business, and not creating so much noise and pollution that it affects the environment and enjoyment of others.

I seem to have messed up the formatting somehow, that was biggles' point i was replying to.

Sorry, I intended to reply to our brave aviator.

Or maybe make walkers only go on tread mills and climbers only on indoor walls then at least the farmers have no one to bother them. 

You happy with jet skis on Buttermere, Tim?

Rgds

Rog

This is the second time you have asked about whether someone would be happy with happy with Jet Skis on Buttermere so I will bite - why not?

Car and motor bikes are allowed to drive to/from the lake so you cant complain about the fuel jet ski's would use.

Same argument with noise pollution.

Boats are allowed on the lake so why not jet skis - or is it just that YOU do not like them for some reason?

All wheel drive club has existed for decades. Set courses on land with permission, strict regs over vehicles (roll cages etc).. I don't think these cowboys would do very well there though. 

Because the offence they cause to others for miles around is so extreme that they are unacceptable in an area set aside for peaceful recreation. You surely can't say there's any comparison between a car driving alongside Buttermere and a jet ski, just as there is no comparison conflictwise between someone walking up to a crag and a 4x4 grinding and flailing it's way up a no-longer-green lane. I'm just waiting for some poor walker to be killed by a stone flying out from behind the wheels of  one of these vehicles. I was hit by some a few years back walking up to Millstone Edge while some brain-dead driver tried to get a bit nearer to the crag, so don't say it's unlikely.

Just because you have 'rights' doesn't mean you are right.

Only sailboats are permitted on Buttermere. Motorboats are banned. One of the reasons for this is noise pollution.

Going on the assumption that you enjoy camping in the hills, how would you feel if a bunch of people with a giant boom box camped next to you and blasted out loud techno/rap/death metal/Gregorian chant (pick whichever one you find the most disagreeable) all night and day?

Who decides what it 'right'?  

Do you think it's right to cause enough erosion to lead to this "The damaged track prevents him from taking up feed to his stock"?

I do enjoy camping in the hills, and have on occasion moved camp to get away from people with said giant boom box (do they exist nowadays, we are showing our age) - they have as much right as me to be camping in the hills - me looking for solitude, them looking for a place to get away and let their hair down and party.

As for the noise of jet ski's on Buttermere  - have you ever sat on a high crag and been plagued by the whine of a motor bike - shall we ban them? Or nowadays, by the whine of a drone - hopefully this fad will die out although unfortunately I think it is here to stay. Why are these noise pollutions allowed yet you seem to have an issue with jet skis??

As for being hit by a stone I imagine that it was sore so you have my sympathies - but how many road traffic incidents are their daily yet we allow road traffic - or shall we ban that in case of an unfortunate accident?

In our democracy, legally its broadly speaking a concensus arrived at through parliament. 

Morally, it should be pretty obvious (to all but the most thick headed) when their activity has a disproportionate impact on the environment and other users of that environment

Is there no chance of a walker being killed by a stone falling from a crag? 

Best ban climbing just in case something is dislodged. 

Thanks for clarifying.  This then must include walkers and climbers creating large footpaths through the fells with their feet and pointy sticks that turn into ugly scars and create artificial water courses that wash away parts of the mountain sides.   Are we also then trying to stop this?  

Yes.  Black Hill before and after ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Black_Hill_%28Pea...

http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/sites/default/files/gallery/Black-Hill-...

First, yes we are trying to stop it by for example footpath maintenance and providing drainage and stoned-paths.

Second, you are (deliberately) ignoring the rate of damage.  People have been walking in the Lakes for a 150 years and erosion is controlled an effectively managed.  The damage from 4x4s has occurred in a few years and destroyed a track that had been present until then for centuries.

Yes, as for example is done at Salisbury crags in Edinburgh, where is such a chance

I don't disagree, but we must not ignore the significant increase in rate of erosion that the number of footpath users have created resulting from the large increase in numbers of people accessing the outdoors.   

As i have pointed out above, 4x4 users do fix green lanes.  It is, as ever, the minority that makes the whole look bad, and people choose to ignore the good work that is done by some.  

As above, this is effectively managed.  The increase in numbers isn't large in recent decades.

Sorry it simply isn't.  The damage done to many green lanes by even responsibly driven cars is wholly disproportionate and barely compensated at all by what repair may take place.  To be sustainable with frequent passage of motorised vehicles, full surfacing and drainage is needed.

Banning cars are in the Lakes is not a bad idea actually. 

I walk on hundreds of miles of fell paths that are not 'managed', with much erosion so, sorry, i don't agree in the slightest.  

Feel free to start another thread on that one.  Proportionately, the environmental damage and impact on other countryside users from an individual walker or climber is clearly miniscule compared with an individual armed with 2 tons of metal and an engine which is the point of this thread.

How do these vast quantities of individual walkers / climbers access the hills - by use of vehicular transport?

How do the small number of 4x4 drivers access the greenlanes -  by use of vehicular transport.

Which group does the most environmental damage per year?

(and yes, you did use the word proportionally, but lest just set that aside - which group does the most damage?)

or do you want to discuss localised but severe environmental damage caused by inappropriate vehicle use.?

By your line of argument I'm ok to take a challenger tank down the green lanes because there's only one.

Not considering the numbers makes it a meaningless question.  Its like asking whether car driving causes more damage than the atomic bomb.  Over time many, many, more people have died in car accidents.

We seem happy to go to those lengths for footpaths so why not for green lanes?

How do you define "obviously inappropriate"?

But it's so much more fun this way! Provided I can think of an activity that no-one else does I can basically cause as much damage or disturbance as I want because, over the course of a year, hillwalkers will almost certainly have a greater cumulative impact than me.

Because if you do that it stops being a green lane.............

No kidding!

From LD NT: 

http://www.ntlakesoutdoors.org.uk/uploads/download/file/64/External_NT_Even...

'4,000 tonnes of stone is needed per year for the next ten years to repair 2,000 km of upland footpaths in the Lake District. '

Some of the costs involved this work:

£100/m – to repair stone path

£10/m for revegetation alongside a path

£600/hour for helicopter to move stone

£25/m to repair dry stone walls

£25 – to plant and protect five native trees

The mountaineering community is trying to rectify this - https://www.thebmc.co.uk/mend-our-mountains-returns-with-1-million-target-f... 

I've already got my US Marine Corps surplus A10 Warthog prepared for the weekend. 

I'm planning on carving up some green lanes with the 20mm cannon and dropping the odd cluster munition on High Tilberthwaite. It's insignificant compared to the damage done by all those walkers and much quieter compared to the noise made by every road bike in the UK.

Anyone who says different is a killjoy and they should embrace my harmless 'past time' as I don't complain about theirs.

In reply to myself, I was wondering what people thought about the relative significance of the two main objections to vehicular traffic in such places:

1. The damage to the environment

2. The damage to the ambience, or peace and quiet or whatever you call it

A lot of the discussion  has centred around item 1, but when it comes to item 2 I think the issue comes down to manners and respect for others. In short, my choosing to walk along a green lane has very little effect on the enjoyment of the 4x4 driver, unless I deliberately obstruct him and cause him to stall on a difficult section. The converse does not apply. I don't wish to set myself up as a paragon of virtue, so there's no need to point out that we are all sinners in some respect or other, but I am a strong believer in the need to rein in my rights if I think the exercise of the same will seriously impinge upon others. For example, I defer my right to drive along the high street, windows open and loud music blaring out. The innocent people walking on the street do not need to show why I shouldn't do such a thing and their going about their business does not adversely affect me. This is why I hate jet skis, because they are the extreme example of someone putting their own pleasure ahead of the comfort of many other people. This is why I support the speed limit on Windermere, even though I would perhaps agree with having a small area set aside for water-skiing since Windermere is the most commercialised of the Lakes.

Use Green Tarmac then

???What about an environmental tax for the tens of thousands of cars that go to the national parks every weekend to walk in the hills. 

They are pointlessly wasting far more fuel than 400 4x4 off road drivers per month

Sorry but that is reserved for physco paths 

Jet skis (and quads on public roads in towns - just to expand the argument) are driven by dickheads just to annoy the rest of us with noise and irritation. As said in the American Constitution this is a self evident truth - and there is no forgiveness. Oh and they probably voted for a hard Brexit (I bet I'm not wrong). I' ll probably think of something else to tar them with as well - barstewards!

I've got really mixed feelings on this one.  My primary reaction is utter contempt and pity for these woeful cretins in the video, especially the narrator.  How bleak and desolate must their daily lives be if they can improve them by driving round in a huge 4x4 at ridiculously low speeds up steep tracks.

But to be honest, I think these guys are doing a lot less damage than for example Derbyshire council when they filled in Rushup Edge with loos estones and gravel and ruined a good track.

Not much to chose between then, but at least the pricks in the vid weren't spending tax-payers' money..

You're right - there are judgements to be made but, if used thoughtfully and backed up with enforcement,  TRO's can be an effective way to deal with problems. One issue is is that the problems tend to become high profile, appear on TV programmes etc, whilst at a national scale  the issue is, I'm informed, fairly negligible compared say to the damage that farm vehicles do to rights fo way.  

The NERC Act 2006 limited the potential to expand the off road motorised rights and the anti-green laning groups - who themselves often appear to be fairly unreasonable -  gave evidence at the recent review of that act. We'll see if anything come of it. 

The relative harm bit has LITERALLY just been dealt with in the messages above you

That's a bit like pointing out that 5 million people eat more food than a few hundred people do.

Sometimes things get missed, reading this on my phone it takes me to the last posts after my last one but sometimes it jumps forward. 

No its not, people need to eat to stay alive. 

I am asking why is driving off road any more of a waste from an environmental point of view to someone driving to the country for a walk. 

With the right drainage you can do it without resorting to tarmac. We often accept the same management choice for footpaths.

Is that a trick question? If I drive to Little Langdale and go for a drive when I get there then I've used more fuel than if I drive to Little Langdale and go for a walk. Same as driving to Windermere and then using a jet ski uses more fuel than driving to Windermere and having a swim.

Driving off road is clearly more an environmental waste than walking.  Both parties are likely to have driven to the start of their activity so that is irrelevant unless you want to compare the impact of the 'drive in' in a land rover compared with, say, a Honda civic ?

The off roader is likely to live closer, and have an older vehicle. So environmental impact not as clear cut as you make out.

Wow, the angels are really starting to fall off the edge of the pin now. 

I registered on UKC because I'm interested in mountaineering/walking/climbing etc. Am I in the right place?

We are talking about environmental impact. We can be blind to the impact we ourselves cause as walkers and climbers.

The post I was originally replying to was saying that off road in should be done on disused industrial ground and a levvy should be charged for the environmental wastage of the fuel used. 

So the 4x4 isn't traveling to the country burning fuel then burning more driving over the hills, they are going to their nearest center. Now I agree that fuel used for recreational use is a waste as far as the environment is concerned and its just as much a waste if you drive to the country to walk as it is if you drive to the local quarry to drive so both should be levied or neither should. 

There is nothing stopping you walking round your local neighbourhood and using zero fuel, then you can be all self righteous about people needlessly burning fuel for fun. 

For the record when I had my land rover driving 10 miles and 10 miles back to my favorite quarry and a full day's off road used to cost me £20, at the time diesel had just hit £1 per ltr so that's 20 lots for a full day out, how much do climbers and walkers burn going to their favorite spots? 

Climbers and walkers have no environmental impact. I have a special button on my dashboard, when I press it my van runs on rainbows and emits sherbert fountains. There is a sensor in the cab that detects if I am wearing red socks and a woolley hat before it will engage the correct mode. 

Which is a totally different scenario to the one which started the original post. 

This has been quite an interesting read, coming from both sides of the fence. I used to love going green laning when I lived in Wales. I don't have a 4x4 anymore as I has a company car and can't justify the cost of having one now. If I ever get one again, I will try and take up green laning again. I've never been on the lane in the video in this thread, as when I used to do it, the group I was with respected the lanes a lot more. Routes would be planned, and a couple of guys would go out a few days before a group of us to check the condition of the lanes. If they were considered to be bad, routes would be changed to avoid it. when out, we would go in groups of 2 or 3, allowing at least 15 minutes between groups so we weren't one big group. I think in all the times I went out, I only ever had one person complain, & I remember at least 1 that actually mentioned that it was nice that we were driving sensibly. One of the cars was used by a man and his very disabled wife. If they didn't do this green laning, there was no way that she would ever have been able to see the country side, like you all do.  There's also a safety side of green laning. By them being used sensibly, it helps to keep them clear for emergency access, and in fact, once on the Wayfarer in North Wales we came across a walker that had hurt her leg when she fell over, couldn't walk back and had no phone signal to call for help. we managed to get here and her partner back to their car.

The Op 

Posted about 4x4 damage saying its out of order, then followed lots of posts saying it should be banned etc. Someone said it was a pointless waste of fuel and should be restricted to 4x4 centers and have an environmental levy on the fuel used. 

So I was replying to a point made on this thread and I ask again. Why should fuel use be penalised for one form of recitation but not for another? 

You're mixing two issues, the wasting of fuel in hobby by a small number of people with the general need to reduce fuel use per person in the UK. I would agree that both are bad, but a large waste by a small number shouldn't remain just because of the garden issue of a small waste by a larger number.

There is a tax on fuel, paid by all driver for journeys. But to use fuel to power a vehicle to ultimately go no where, is drive around a course back for the start, seems more of a waste.

What we also need is better transport links to allow our least polluted places to be enjoyed without the need for petrol/diesel.

Fair enough. But what about winter climbers, most aren't from Scotland and will use far more fuel than a 4x4 travelling locally for a few miles of greenlaning. 

Where is the petition to ban winter climbers not from Scotland?

Blatent troll.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Easier to call someone a troll than engage with their point.

And yes, I've heard about whataboutism, but it's basically calling out hypocrisy.

I'm not going to argue a point about the consumption but it's a bit rich to lord it over a lad from Mossley who drives to the peak, then drives another few miles on a greenlane when winter climbers are smashing it from London to Scotland on the motorway every weekend. 

The whole pollution argument coming from climbers is completely hypocritical. 

Yes, probably best to stick to wankers ripping up the countryside for fun.

This thread is making me consider a plan that I've been hatching for a while. Essentially set out backpacking from my front door (Derby), perhaps walk to Sheffield or some such, a bit of urban exploring, bivi in hedgerows/shrubbery around traffic junctions etc, then train home at the end.

I will get a map out...

But have you done it at night with no lights?

No, but I've jumped at night in full NBC kit carrying link and a pair of pink silk panties. 

You have no idea of the relative fuel consumption of the two groups. If we are to say vehicle use must be limited then what is that limit? Maybe you can refuel only once every 8 weeks. How does that suit for ensuring each individual behaves responsibly when it comes to consuming fuels and spewing pollutants? 

Surely we all do this every time we go climbing?

We're not any better just  

because our course to nowhere starts and finishes at our own doorstep and includes a small percentage of walking.