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Access to many mountains in Wales still illegal

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Despite shops reopening on Monday. How is transmission more likely on a mountain than in a tiny shop? I don't see any justification for continuing to deny access to locals and I for one will be ignoring the restrictions from now on.

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 Yorkiebar 20 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

I don't think there's much point in looking for logic from this lot. It's pretty clear that they don't expect everyone to follow the 'rules'.

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 Dave the Rave 20 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

Yeah. Crack on. I’d be worried about my car still if you needed to leave it anywhere. A MRT volunteers car got vandalised whilst he was training.

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 Monkeysee 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave the Rave:

Some very pathetic soles out there! 

Karma is waiting for them;-)

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 Luke90 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Monkeysee:

> Some very pathetic soles out there! Karma is waiting for them;-)

Maybe in the form of unexpected spiky lego bricks and upturned plugs.

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 Toccata 21 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

The 5 mile rule is only to keep the English away. Ditto Scotland.

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 off-duty 21 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Despite shops reopening on Monday. How is transmission more likely on a mountain than in a tiny shop? I don't see any justification for continuing to deny access to locals and I for one will be ignoring the restrictions from now on.

This entire lockdown has worked due to the voluntary compliance of the public. The legislation has been pretty toothless and not matching the guidance, and UK policing have approached it with a "policing by consent" mentality.

I've said right from the beginning, this is not a public order issue, it isn't a problem that can be solved by Policing or legislation, and it isn't an "us versus the government" scenario.

It's a lethal global pandemic of a very infectious disease.

If you want to ignore the guidance and go and do your thing, there so very little anyone on the internet can do to stop you. 

My view would be that posting about what you intend to do on the internet does nothing to promote the goals of stopping the spread of this disease and, if anything, encourages others to break the rules -"Well, if they are doing it, I might as well".

So, if you wanted some sort of reassurance that what you are doing is "OK" - you can weigh up the "likes" you got on your post, with the reactions of people who are involved professionally in the response to this pandemic, like me, calling you a moron for making this post for the reasons I have detailed.

Stay safe.

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 wynaptomos 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Toccata:

> The 5 mile rule is only to keep the English away. Ditto Scotland.

Many English people already living here in Wales as well as Scotland, just as there are Welsh and Scots in England. The rules apply to everybody, you are talking nonsense.

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In reply to Toccata:

> The 5 mile rule is only to keep the English away. Ditto Scotland.

That, and the people of Cardiff/Newport/Swansea/Edinburgh/Glasgow out of the rural areas.  Basically, the Welsh and Scots are pandering to the rural community's dislike of tourism.

It made sense when there was a serious chance of the NHS being overwhelmed in those locations.  It now makes no sense at all.

Post edited at 12:36
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In reply to pancakeandchips:

I believe handling pandemic involves a lot of comparisons between perceived benefits and risks. 

The benefits of opening shops means restarting the economy, allowing more people to feel like life is becoming more normal, etc. The benefits of extended travel are less clear, with people already allowed to visit friends and family further than 5 miles in Scotland. It will be fewer communities, like bikers, photographers, hillgoers, who would benefit from that.

The risks of opening shops are arguably higher than allowing extended travel. It's just not on the radar or treated as important matter for most. 

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In reply to pancakeandchips:

Just a side note.

Even if you live in a social circle of outdoor enthusiasts, you'd probably find more people who want shops and pubs to be open rather than be able to drive further. I'm certainly the latter, but I feel like we, as a community, are an exception of the society.

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 OwenM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It made sense when there was a serious chance of the NHS being overwhelmed in those locations.  It now makes no sense at all.


That was never going to happen, if anyone gets seriously ill in the highlands their sent straight to Glasgow, Aberdeen or Inverness. The days of local hospitals are long gone. 

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In reply to off-duty:

Please explain how I'm likely to catch or spread covid 19 by walking up a mountain compared to browsing in a bookshop or buying antiques. Please also explain how Snowdonia National Park's access policy is in line with current government guidance.

Its clear that the mountains are shut to discourage tourists travelling from outside the area - why is this necessary given the travel restrictions? Why are people local to the mountains not allowed to exercise on them and instead having to use the same limited crowded set of open rights of way?

Yes, I could just go and walk up a mountain and will probably not bump into a ranger or anyone else, but my reason for posting was that I think there should be more of a discussion about it. Our predecessors fought hard for the access rights we enjoy today, and whilst I've complied up to now because, as you say, there's a lethal global pandemic happening all around us, I no longer see any justification for the closures given the decisions made in Cardiff. There will likely be another wave of the disease, because of the need to get the economy up and running again, but people climbing and walking locally is not going to contribute to this in a meaningful way.

So yes, I hope my post does encourage other people to break the rules too, because the rules are redundant and its about time SNP changed their policy.

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 GerM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

As ever the situation is considerably more complicated than this. Just as you having such feelings about the matter is slightly more complicated than just expressing your frustration that you aren't allowed to do things that you want to do, and aren't prepared to consider the effect your actions may have on other people.

Maybe it's about avoiding creating a dislike of tourism in such areas. A mishandling of a return to normality could easily lead to anger and resentment in these communities. Because people have been unable to visit areas for a period for valid reasons there has been an inevitable build up of many people wanting to do so as soon as this is possible. This leads to people visiting all sorts of places en masse once the floodgates open (as we have seen in a variety of contexts eg MacDonalds and IKEA), likely in numbers that would be enough to annoy and frutstrate locals, even without the added nervousnes that the pandemic has created in some people. Just this afternoon I have seen this post about climbers visiting the Dinorwig slate quarries in unprecedented numbers, that's before restrictions are lifted:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/543366542345572?view=permalink&id=3600043090011220

Edited to quote for those unable to read the link:

"Hi all. Note about access to the slate at the moment.
Not having a winge, but passing one on 😅

Yesterday the place was inundated with climbers. Probably the busiest I have ever seen it in my 10 years up here.
There were a few older local residents marching about the bus stop car park questioning people and photographing number plates.
I spoke to them for a while since they approached me and quizzed me as to where I was from. I got a pass and was treated politely when they found out I live nearby and have for years.

They have apparently had a large number of people from all over the UK staying overnight in vans or in the quarries and seem to be getting VERY annoyed with it.
The police were called yesterday by the residents. I'm not sure what will come of that. I was leaving as a lone officer turned up. I imagine anyone not deemed local enough might be getting a letter or fine?

Probably best for ongoing access and not upsetting locals if we exercise discretion at the moment and climb somewhere else/practice rope skills at home if it looks busy.
We don't want the residents complaining to FH and them taking steps to make access awkward.

Its certainly more quiet in the week, confirmed by the locals. But this weekend saw daft levels of traffic down there. Especially around the sports routes at Oz.
The bus stop was bumper to bumper andc ars were parked a fair way down the approach road!
Usually they obviously don't mind us at all but the older ones were both annoyed and a bit scared.

I ended up going home so I didnt add to the problem.

If its busy please consider changing plans or at least spread out.
Keep the elderly locals safe and everyone on side.
On a selfish note, avoid potential for grief and fines!

Stay safe and chalky folks!"

There is potential of course for delaying this return to make it worse when it happens, but as many people are still off work, or working more flexibly than usual, and their children still off school the potential numbers of people able to visit as soon as this is allowed is huge, and will put abnormal pressures on places people want to visit, and annoy and disappoint people both locally and further afield.

Post edited at 15:06
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 Danbow73 21 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

Maybe if half the crags weren't 'closed' by default of being in the areas of the national park that are currently off limits then the slate may not be so busy!

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 off-duty 21 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> Please explain.... Please also explain.....

> Its clear that the mountains are shut to discourage tourists travelling from outside the area - why is this necessary .....?

>Why are people local to the mountains not allowed to exercise .......?

> Yes, I could just go and walk up a mountain and will probably not bump into a ranger or anyone else, but my reason for posting was that I think there should be more of a discussion about it. Our predecessors fought hard for the access rights we enjoy today, and whilst I've complied up to now because, as you say, there's a lethal global pandemic happening all around us, I no longer see any justification for the closures given the decisions made in Cardiff. There will likely be another wave of the disease, because of the need to get the economy up and running again, but people climbing and walking locally is not going to contribute to this in a meaningful way.

You want to promote debate - ask questions like these.

And don't baldly state:

  I don't see any justification for continuing to deny access to locals and I for one will be ignoring the restrictions from now on.

> So yes, I hope my post does encourage other people to break the rules too, because the rules are redundant and its about time SNP changed their policy.

Because, just like the paragraph above, it comes across that you don't care if your only impact is to encourage people to break the rules.  In which case feel free to re-read my post. My sentiment hasn't changed.

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 GerM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Danbow73:

That, in part, is kind of the point I was making. Restricitions lead to pent up demand, and however you feel some restriction at some point was probably good idea, given uncertainty about the seriousness and nature of the situation. That doesn't mean lifting restrictions is a happy and carefree road to climbing happiness.

Don't worry if all those restrictions were lifted straightaway there would be nowhere to park in the area anyway to go climbing, from all the people keen to climb Mount Snowdonia.

Post edited at 15:39
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In reply to GerM:

I think the ship has sailed on that.  Despite its contribution to the area, there always has been an undercurrent of anti-English feeling in rural Wales, and I don't think it should be pandered to, not least because tourism is a key part of the area's income, without which it would be much poorer.  Fundamentally, these areas have always (in living memory) been tourist areas, and if you don't like tourists you just need to go and live somewhere else.

I've not been to the Lakes yet since all this as it's a bit far for a day trip, but I have been to both the Peak (for hillwalking, not climbing) and to Yorkshire, in neither of these was this attitude prevalent[1], and there's really no need for it.

Clearly if we go we should be responsible, for instance if the car park is full (and anyone who ever goes to Snowdon knows full well what Pen y Pass is like) to look at a map and pick somewhere different, and I would be quite happy with the idea of the Police ticketing cars parking down the Pass as causing an obstruction/hazard, as they are.  But there is no sensible reason, other than a petty and silly law in Wales and Scotland, not to go.  Outdoors activities are typically very much socially distanced, that's kind of the point.

[1] Other than one odd old woman in Hathersage in mask and full PPE who was going round, rather like a witch in persona, suggesting we were all going to die because she was recovering from it, or something.

Post edited at 19:48
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 gezebo 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It made sense when there was a serious chance of the NHS being overwhelmed in those locations. 

 

I’m not sure how many are aware but the North Wales health board has been in special measures for 5 years. Health is a devolved issue so the Welsh Labour government have had full control of it for years.
 

This whole thing has turned into a big political tit for tat with Westminster with Drakeford trying to flex his muscle. Sadly for us in North Wales who are also much more economically and geographically aligned with the North West of England this has tuned into a big headache. 
 

Its also election time in a few months and Drakeford and Co will also be pandering to the needs and wants of the largely elderly population in the North West of Wales who are quite happy sat at home with their pensions, mortgage free houses etc.

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 daftdazza 21 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

Up here in Scotland I think the police have done an excellent job of handling the crisis from the start, being very understanding with people, not moving on families enjoying picnics in park when it was illegal to do so, and now not enforcing the city public alcohol ban In Glasgow knowing majority of people in city live in flats with no gardens so need to be able to socialise with friends outside and with a drink, a common sense approach to policing which has the public behind them.

Unfortunately alot of guidelines set by the Scottish and Welsh government is not following the science, it's about keeping a simple message such as stay at home as they don't trust the public to make good judgements, when the virus is at levels of 1 in 2000, with most people infected either being health workers, care home residents or those in hospital, the risk of travel for excerise could never be lower, and the continued closures of car parks and toilets just causes more confrontation in many areas, and is now beyond any common sense or reason, so people should be challenging the stupidity of the current situation, I don't break the guidelines as I chose not to drive for environmental reasons, but I support people who do for exercise as long as there are sensible and self sufficient. I think Scottish government for example have created alot of uncessary fear which will make reopening the country up a lot harder than need be.

I have also worked on the frontline as a fire fighter from the start of the crisis, I am drained from it, constant need to wear correct PPE when dealing with casualties, and responsibility not to spread the virus on when getting called out to vulnerable people and care homes etc, plus not knowing if whoever you rescue may be infected, plus looking after my colleagues ensuring we are social distancing as much as possible, but despite this added stress and responsibility, I can still see that the current situation in Wales and Scotland is wrong, it's not based on science, I am not sure the rules in northern Ireland but out of all the devolved government they seems to be handling the crisis best and are treating the people living there with a lot more dignity and respect.

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 elliott92 21 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

While I'm not necessarily arguing with your specific points, your delivery leaves a bit of a bad taste. Referring to someone as a moron who doesn't hold the same views on a situation as you is the kind of shit that makes people think some coppers are arrogant wankers

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 Dr.S at work 21 Jun 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

Interesting comment on NI - they appear* very much to be ahead of the rest which is pretty surprising given the recent politics there. Possibly having no politicians sitting for an extended period has allowed the civil service to get properly organised?


*based on my extremely narrow interaction with civil servants in 3 of the 4 nations dealing with one particular part of the crisis.

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 fred99 21 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

> There were a few older local residents marching about the bus stop car park questioning people and photographing number plates.

> I spoke to them for a while since they approached me and quizzed me as to where I was from. I got a pass and was treated politely when they found out I live nearby and have for years.

So these "older local residents" neither knew you - another local resident, nor were sufficiently worried about catching CV-19 to dissuade themselves from mingling with visitors.

Seems more like they were local "nimbies" who think they personally own that part of the world.

Maybe they should have been informed that they are not welcome in the hospitals, GP surgeries, chemists, supermarkets, clothes shops, DIY centres, gardening centres, etc. that are in the rest of the country.

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 fred99 21 Jun 2020
In reply to gezebo:

> I’m not sure how many are aware but the North Wales health board has been in special measures for 5 years. Health is a devolved issue so the Welsh Labour government have had full control of it for years.

Presumably Anglesey is within the North Wales Health Board. With what's just happened there I would suggest that the North Wales region is more likely to infect people from outside rather than the other way around.

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 Dave the Rave 21 Jun 2020
In reply to elliott92:

> While I'm not necessarily arguing with your specific points, your delivery leaves a bit of a bad taste. Referring to someone as a moron who doesn't hold the same views on a situation as you is the kind of shit that makes people think some coppers are arrogant wankers

Outstanding. Well done

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 Dave the Rave 21 Jun 2020
In reply to fred99:

> So these "older local residents" neither knew you - another local resident, nor were sufficiently worried about catching CV-19 to dissuade themselves from mingling with visitors.

> Seems more like they were local "nimbies" who think they personally own that part of the world.

> Maybe they should have been informed that they are not welcome in the hospitals, GP surgeries, chemists, supermarkets, clothes shops, DIY centres, gardening centres, etc. that are in the rest of the country.

Loving that. My thoughts exactly. They are even saying that they are discriminated against due to the 5 mile rule excluding them from such shops. 

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 GerM 21 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think the ship has sailed on that.  Despite its contribution to the area, there always has been an undercurrent of anti-English feeling in rural Wales, and I don't think it should be pandered to, not least because tourism is a key part of the area's income, without which it would be much poorer.  Fundamentally, these areas have always (in living memory) been tourist areas, and if you don't like tourists you just need to go and live somewhere else.

> I've not been to the Lakes yet since all this as it's a bit far for a day trip, but I have been to both the Peak (for hillwalking, not climbing) and to Yorkshire, in neither of these was this attitude prevalent[1], and there's really no need for it.

> Clearly if we go we should be responsible, for instance if the car park is full (and anyone who ever goes to Snowdon knows full well what Pen y Pass is like) to look at a map and pick somewhere different, and I would be quite happy with the idea of the Police ticketing cars parking down the Pass as causing an obstruction/hazard, as they are.  But there is no sensible reason, other than a petty and silly law in Wales and Scotland, not to go.  Outdoors activities are typically very much socially distanced, that's kind of the point.

> [1] Other than one odd old woman in Hathersage in mask and full PPE who was going round, rather like a witch in persona, suggesting we were all going to die because she was recovering from it, or something.


Wow, that reply certainly seems informative as to your attitude to this situation. The dismissal of any concerns and fears (be they well founded, rational, or otherwise) as Anti-Englishness, given reports of similar attitudes cropping up in other areas such as the Lake District, Yorkshire, Peak District and Cornwall, as well as an example of your personal experience of this, despite your claim that these attitudes are less prevelant there, certainly suggest some bias of your own, rather than a measured and considerate approach to the issues.

To then go on and suggest that anyone who has any concerns about visitor numbers in the current situation, or the tourism industry in general should bugger off somewhere else just seems dismissive of people who live in these areas' lives in general. Tourism is certainly an important and welcome part of the economy, but let's face it can come with it's own issues and challenges, and can be a bit of a double edged sword at times. It almost sounds as if you are suggesting that your enjoyment and recreation in such areas trumps the day to day experience of those people who live and work there.

Personally I feel pretty relaxed about the situation in relation to the virus itself, but that the issue here now is to try to time and manage the opening up of access back to normality without the crazyness that an immediate lifting of restrictions would entail. One further complication is the developing situation on Anglesey at the moment, which potentially could have implications as to how the lifting of restrictions happens in areas such as Gwynedd which has close links to the island and which will certainly raise the level of concern in those people who are still scared about the whole situation in this corner of Wales.

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In reply to GerM:

> It almost sounds as if you are suggesting that your enjoyment and recreation in such areas trumps the day to day experience of those people who live and work there.

I'm suggesting nobody has an exclusive right to a given area.

It's the same as street parking.  If you live in a street where there is no off street parking, and you park on the road, so can anyone else.  It is a public road.  For extreme cases, Permit parking is an option, for which there is quite rightly a fee.  If you want your own guaranteed, dedicated parking, move to a house or flat that has it.

Living somewhere does not, should not and must not give you some kind of control, moral or legal, over who may use public spaces in that area.

When visiting you do need to be courteous (e.g. not parking inconsiderately on the Pass), but locals shouldn't get to say who may visit or when they may.

Post edited at 08:37
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 elliott92 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

Completely agree with all your points. This 'stay off my land' rhetoric is wrong and needs to be stopped 

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 wynaptomos 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

I agree with you about local people taking it upon themselves, however the Welsh government do have this right. FWIW, I think that they are currently moving too slowly on stuff like access to outdoor activities but we are where we are - the rules are still in place, local people like myself are still not out climbing outside of our very small local areas and it is a bit of a kick in the teeth to see increasing numbers of people travelling here and flouting the rules.

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In reply to wynaptomos:

Yes, the Welsh Government do (though I think they shouldn't be doing it by now), but locals don't, if you see what I mean.

FWIW it's not just anti-English sentiment, it's anti-Cardiff etc too - those nasty city people can't be enjoying our countryside when we've liked having it to ourselves, essentially.

Post edited at 11:20
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 Phil79 22 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

> My view would be that posting about what you intend to do on the internet does nothing to promote the goals of stopping the spread of this disease and, if anything, encourages others to break the rules -"Well, if they are doing it, I might as well".

I think that particular ship well and truly sailed when Cummings hosted that massive "f*** you" press conference for the public in the garden of No. 10......

On the other hand, I suspect posting on UKC will have almost zero effect.    

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 wynaptomos 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

The thing that you are missing is that, on the whole, local people agree with the Welsh governments approach so it does not surprise me at all that some will be taking things further than they should. People travelling here right now are creating a lot of resentment and I think they would be wise to just wait a couple more weeks. There has been a massive spike in cases in both Gwynedd and Anglesey in the last few days which has understandably  made people worried once more.

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 gravy 22 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

The justification is that hoards of "brave daves" won't be crossing the border to use Nisa or Tesco Local but they will for the mountains...

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In reply to wynaptomos:

I am not travelling to Wales because I don't wish to break the law even if I happen not to agree with it.

I don't overly care whether local people in specific areas agree with it or not - as I said, the people of (say) Llanberis have no legal or moral authority over who may or may not walk up Snowdon (say) - certainly nobody I know in Wales (mostly urban) does, and if it were put to a referendum (of all Welsh people) I think it is highly questionable as to whether it would win.

The "massive spike" in those places relate to specific settings (meat factories).

Post edited at 12:05
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In reply to pancakeandchips:

>I for one will be ignoring the restrictions from now on

As long as you're happy, that's all that counts huh? Sod everyone else huh?

Post edited at 12:01
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 gezebo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

> The thing that you are missing is that, on the whole, local people agree with the Welsh governments approach so it does not surprise me at all that some will be taking things further than they should. People travelling here right now are creating a lot of resentment and I think they would be wise to just wait a couple more weeks. There has been a massive spike in cases in both Gwynedd and Anglesey in the last few days which has understandably  made people worried once more.

I’m not sure you’re quite right there. There are plenty of people who may have agreed with the WG originally but now feel they are slow and clumsy and well and truly messing up the economy and in turn people’s health. There were also concerns about Drakeford failing or refusing to answer questions from his opposing AM’s. 
 

People travelling to Wales may be causing some resentment amongst some very vocal groups/inviduals but the people I’ve met on my travels across the region from the end of the Llyn, Barmouth, Blaenau-Ffestiniog etc on the whole want to get on with salvaging their livelihoods. 

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 Sl@te Head 22 Jun 2020
In reply to gezebo:

> People travelling to Wales may be causing some resentment amongst some very vocal groups/inviduals but the people I’ve met on my travels across the region from the end of the Llyn, Barmouth, Blaenau-Ffestiniog etc on the whole want to get on with salvaging their livelihoods. 

All within a 5 mile radius the Llyn, Barmouth & Blaenau....

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 off-duty 22 Jun 2020
In reply to elliott92:

> While I'm not necessarily arguing with your specific points, your delivery leaves a bit of a bad taste. Referring to someone as a moron who doesn't hold the same views on a situation as you is the kind of shit that makes people think some coppers are arrogant wankers

I didn't argue with his views. In fact I encouraged the debate.

What I took exception to was his intention to "ignore the restrictions completely'.

Obviously, pointing out that you've misread my posts will undoubtedly pander to the "some coppers are arrogant wankers brigade" - but I'm not entirely convinced anything I say will persuade them otherwise.

Post edited at 15:13
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 gezebo 22 Jun 2020
In reply to Sl@te Head:

> All within a 5 mile radius the Llyn, Barmouth & Blaenau....

Yep. Work. 

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 Sl@te Head 22 Jun 2020
In reply to gezebo:

Ah, fair enough I've forgotten what work is it's been so long....

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 elliott92 22 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

Fair point if I misunderstood you, but at this stage I don't see that his ignoring of the guidelines makes him a moron as you so put it. If I lived in Wales or Scotland I would largely be doing the same. Its a bit draconian for where we are with the virus now, in my opinion. 

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 off-duty 23 Jun 2020
In reply to elliott92:

Fair enough. To be honest I don't know why I even try to put forward nuanced positions here.

This entire lockdown has worked due to the voluntary compliance of the public. The legislation has been pretty toothless and not matching the guidance, and UK policing have approached it with a "policing by consent" mentality.

I've said right from the beginning, this is not a public order issue, it isn't a problem that can be solved by Policing or legislation, and it isn't an "us versus the government" scenario.

It's a lethal global pandemic of a very infectious disease.

If you want to ignore the guidance and go and do your thing, there so very little anyone on the internet can do to stop you. 

My view would be that posting about what you intend to do on the internet does nothing to promote the goals of stopping the spread of this disease and, if anything, encourages others to break the rules -"Well, if they are doing it, I might as well".

So, if you wanted some sort of reassurance that what you are doing is "OK" - you can weigh up the "likes" you got on your post, with the reactions of people who are involved professionally in the response to this pandemic, like me, calling you a moron for making this post for the reasons I have detailed.

Stay safe.

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In reply to off-duty:

> Fair enough. To be honest I don't know why I even try to put forward nuanced positions here.

There is nothing at all nuanced about calling someone a moron.  It's simply not on.  You can explain why they're wrong, but it's as trite as terms like "Covidiot".

It also detracts heavily from what is a (relatively) valid argument.

Post edited at 11:39
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 off-duty 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> There is nothing at all nuanced about calling someone a moron.  It's simply not on.  You can explain why they're wrong, but it's as trite as terms like "Covidiot".

The reason is nuanced, but I accept that the description is blunt.

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In reply to off-duty:

I'm not even sure it is.  It's basically along the lines of "it's up to you if you break the law provided you accept the consequences if caught, but please don't incite others to do so", isn't it?

Which probably is my position as well.

Of course, if you live in England and want to go hillwalking in England that isn't breaking the law, so you can do that and post about it all you like.

Post edited at 11:41
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 off-duty 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It also detracts heavily from what is a (relatively) valid argument.

You're probably right. Frustration at dealing with the consequences of the breaches of this lockdown probably.

Whilst that might not specifically apply to those going climbing, we've had overdoses, rapes, stabbings and lots and lots of violent offences, from those that have decided to say "Sod this, we'll do what we want, everyone else is", and that's leaving aside the COVID19 second wave potential. I think the estimate of infection to death is 23 days, so fingers crossed for no second spike.

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 daftdazza 23 Jun 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yeah I am impressed that both sides in Northern Ireland have finally put aside there difference and seem on to be working together effectively on covid -19, they are being a lot bolder than other devolved administrations, already got rid of a stupid travel limit, and seem to be ready to open up the country for hospitality and tourism weeks before Scotland and Wales, no doubt saving lots of jobs and businesses in process.

The problem in Scotland and Wales is clearly political, totally messed up the initial response due to bad pre planning, now caught on the back foot, then wanted to separate themselves from UK government by showing to be playing it safe and cautious, probably hoping for a second wave in England to prove themselves right, all the while the rush to reopen the economy is not as vital as what happens in England boost the economy of the devolved nationals long term.

Both Scottish government and Welsh assembly have elections next year, in Scotland the core vote in cities such as Glasgow and Dundee and urban deprived areas such as North Lanarkshire and west Dumbartonshire is guaranteed, what will effect a potential majority is affluent rural areas which they are in a marginal contest in with the Tories, so I suspect one aspect of the five mile travel guidelines is nothing about stopping the spread of the virus, but more to appease the fear they have built up in rural voters with next year's Holyrood election in mind.  Must be a similar situation in Wales, labour lost slot oftof votes to Tories and brexit party in December, real danger of losing there majority in Welsh assembly elections next year, hence I imagine playing politics to look like they are doing a safer job than UK Tory party .

So when it comes to the five mile travel guideline in Scotland and Wales, as long as people are sensible and self sufficient they should start putting pressure on their respective government and totally ignore that specific guideline, you have a crazy situation up here in Scotland that you can drive from Glasgow to Skye for the day to view a second home you would like to buy, but you can't travel less than an hour to remoter arrochar hills for exercise, total madness .

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 gman2012 23 Jun 2020
In reply to off-duty:

>  "some coppers are arrogant wankers brigade" - but I'm not entirely convinced anything I say will persuade them otherwise.

...

> To be honest I don't know why I even try to put forward nuanced positions here.

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 wynaptomos 23 Jun 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

“..The problem in Scotland and Wales is clearly political, totally messed up the initial response due to bad pre planning, now caught on the back foot, then wanted to separate themselves from UK government by showing to be playing it safe and cautious, probably hoping for a second wave in England to prove themselves right”

That’s one of the nastiest comments I’ve seen on this site. Hope you’re proud of yourself.

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 daftdazza 23 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

Why is it nasty?  just an observation and probably rather true of some people, seemed to be several people on this forum, lots of SNP supports on twitter and others  across the UK who were predicting and seemily excited at prospect of a second wave happening since the initial easing from lockdown mid May.  I am sorry if I have assumed to much from what I have observed, and I did say in it more in jest than anything else.  I have been extremely positive from the start stating there would be no second wave in Europe until the Autumn rather than public shaming other as covid idiots etc. 

Post edited at 20:28
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 Niceboy 23 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

So, if infection rates and deaths increased in England after their initial easing of the lockdown you would be horrified if the Scottish or Welsh governments attempted to make any political capital out of that?

Seriously?!

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 Niceboy 23 Jun 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

The elephant in the room in these covid discussions is that people are not willing to lay down what their political affiliations are when they respond. to posts that really have a political dimension to them ( no matter what Sturgeon says!).. I have always made it clear when posting that I am not an SNP supporter; however, the SNP supporters on here seem to be very reluctant to pin their colours to that mask when they come out in support of, say, the 5 mile limitation on travel for exercise. It would be  very interesting to see the correlation between those that vote SNP and those that support the 5 mile limitation - I have a wee suspicion as to what it would show!

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 wynaptomos 23 Jun 2020
In reply to daftdazza:

You said the Welsh and Scottish governemnts would wish a second wave on England, which could cause hundreds, if not thousands of new deaths. If you really believe that, you need to take a good look at yourself.

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 daftdazza 23 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

Fair enough I worded it inapriopately, partly through being dyslexic,   I apologise for it, and I am imagine majority of sane people want life to go back to normal, but I don't think such an example you describe is possible at moment and is not how i meant it.  The mistake I made was saying probably hoping for a second wave, I should have said they were probably expecting some sort of second wave which is actually closer to meaning I was trying to put across at time

There is so many early warning system now to pick up an upsurge in infection, wether that's community monitoring by ONS or Zoe/Kings college app and community testing, along with vast amount of tests getting carried out across the country, that combined with NHS 24 data and hospital admission increases, surely it would be possible to spot any upsurge in infection rather quick and attribute it to a specific lock down restriction that was eased tocto quick so constraint could be put back in places, all should be possible without an upsurge in thousands of deaths, recent example in Spain, Portugal, Germany, China, south Korea, Singapore suggest it's possible to pick up on an upsurge and but brakes on without a large amount of deaths, so I imagine same would be possible here.  Come the Autumn when the country is almost fully back to normal it maybe possible then that infections will rise quick but I still think we would be act in time to prevent a repeat of what happened in march.  

If some restrictions are removed to soon it would be extremely naive to think the devolved administration wouldn't capitalise on these mistakes politicaly, a similar thing has been happening in Scotland for months now with Scottish government perceived to be handling the situation better in Scotland despite obvious failing hence the SNP support and poll ratings are increasing and support for independence has never been higher, the Scottish government has very much been playing the situation to there advantage.  A similar situation happened with Brexit and Tory majority in past election, in public SNP are outraged but in private a lot of party members and elected politicians are delighted as there could be no stronger boost to there desire for independence.  So I imagine going forward the Scottish government will jump on any mistakes made at Westminster while making excuses for there own.  

Post edited at 00:00
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 richprideaux 24 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

> You said the Welsh and Scottish governemnts would wish a second wave on England, which could cause hundreds, if not thousands of new deaths. If you really believe that, you need to take a good look at yourself.

It is a statement that mirrors the opinion of several of my neighbours and some friends who are YesCymru activists, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

We are along way past "we're all in this together, flatten the curve" - it's now about mitigating the effects of each each regional response (or lack of).

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 Jarl Stigr 26 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

https://www.snowdonia.gov.wales/authority/coronavirus/routes-closed

as I read it - if you live in North Wales, do not travel more than 5 miles from your home, do not visit the above places then you are free to exercise in the hills, remembering that you are on your own if it all goes pear-shaped. Just like back in the 70’s basically. If you can walk up the hills from your house, so much the better. 
if you live in England, then Wales is still closed, sadly. I have/had a tourist related business until lockdown. I would gladly see the return of Tourists, especially climbers and Hill walkers 

> Despite shops reopening on Monday. How is transmission more likely on a mountain than in a tiny shop? I don't see any justification for continuing to deny access to locals and I for one will be ignoring the restrictions from now on.

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 Monkeysee 26 Jun 2020
In reply to wynaptomos:

Have you only been o  this site for a week ?  Nasty comments !!! Good try  😂

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 jezb1 26 Jun 2020
In reply to Jarl Stigr:

> as I read it - if you live in North Wales, do not travel more than 5 miles from your home, do not visit the above places then you are free to exercise in the hills, remembering that you are on your own if it all goes pear-shaped. 

That's not currently the case. Some areas of the Snowdonia National Park are closed to anyone.

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In reply to jezb1:

"do not visit the above places"?

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 jezb1 26 Jun 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> "do not visit the above places"?

Oops, tired eyes, missed that!

I've given myself a virtual slap.

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 mysterion 26 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

You must wait on your devolved leaders to lead you through the valley of the shadow of death, fearing no evil

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 Jarl Stigr 26 Jun 2020
In reply to jezb1:

That’s correct - that’s what it says on the National Park website - hence the link

Snowdon, Ogwen, Cader Idris and the Arran are closed to the public.

”In Snowdonia, after much consideration, we decided to close the area’s busiest mountains to allmembers of the public. We decided to keep other areas of the National Park with public access open in order to ensure that people living locally could exercise from their doorstep.”

just to confirm, like...

Post edited at 14:31
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 static266 26 Jun 2020
In reply to Jarl Stigr:

Any excuse for the landowners to close the Aran. Doesn’t make any sense to me why the national park decided on this unless they have serious concerns that the access agreement will be revoked. 

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 Jarl Stigr 26 Jun 2020
In reply to static266:

I have no idea about that. What I do know is that trespass is a tort ;-)

in England and Wales. Think it is different in Scotland

Post edited at 15:02
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 toad 26 Jun 2020
In reply to static266:

Aran is covered under CROW, so the access agreement is more or less superfluous. In normal times, access has been open since 2000. had an interesting  chat with an NP warden  about it a few years ago

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 Jarl Stigr 26 Jun 2020
In reply to toad:

Good to know - thank you. 

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In reply to Jarl Stigr:

I live on the edge of one of the closed areas. My usual daily run has been illegal for the past 3 months, as well as access to crags I can walk to from my doorstep.

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 Jarl Stigr 28 Jun 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

I think I challenge your definition of illegal

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/lockdown-wales-stay-local

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 GerM 28 Jun 2020
In reply to Jarl Stigr:

No idea what the legal ins and outs of it are, but this is what your link has to say on the matter:

"Where can I go climbing or hill-walking?

As mentioned above, this should be within five miles of the place you are living. However, many parts of the Welsh countryside and popular beauty spots remain closed. In Snowdonia, the main Snowdon massif (including both sides of the Llanberis Pass), the Glyderau mountains (inc. Cwm Idwal and Tryfan), Cader Idris and the Aran mountains remain legally closed."

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 Jarl Stigr 29 Jun 2020
In reply to GerM:

You are right - I missed that bit.

that being said - here’s an update 

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/welsh-restrictions-lifted-whats-different-for-the-outdoors

Post edited at 06:57
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