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Another unnecessary MRT call out.

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 scotthldr 31 Jan 2022

When will people start to learn that it’s not ok to go out hill walking/mountaineering/climbing when the forecast shows 60mph plus winds and heavy snow showers. If they want to kill themselves then do it without putting 50 other people at serious risk as well. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/cairngorm_mrt/status/1487899042327801857?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1487899042327801857%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-scotland-60196439

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 ScraggyGoat 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

You may like to consider the following:

We are fortunate to live in a free society and they had every right to go on the hill. While it may or may not have been wise to go on the hill, we should defend our liberties jealously.

Mountain rescue are volunteers whom choose to go on the hill, to help fellow mountaineers and others in distress.

Three; those that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, who becomes the arbiter of what conditions or activities are reasonable?  Because if it’s a case of the public, or random punters of web forums deciding, climbing and winter walking is f**cked.

8
 DerwentDiluted 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

A very neccessary MRT callout I'd suggest.

1
OP scotthldr 31 Jan 2022
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

What an absolute arrogant view. Is it ok for someone to go to sea on an inflatable ring in a force 10 storm because the RNLI are voluntary and therefore must like putting  their lives in danger rescuing the uneducated.

Everyone of us is the arbiter, it is our personal responsibility to ensure that we conduct our interest in the safest possible manner without putting others at risk.

Post edited at 18:25
106
 DaveHK 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> When will people start to learn that it’s not ok to go out hill walking/mountaineering/climbing when the forecast shows 60mph plus winds and heavy snow showers. If they want to kill themselves then do it without putting 50 other people at serious risk as well. 

Can I fetch you a ladder or will you make your own way down from that high horse?

Post edited at 18:22
4
OP scotthldr 31 Jan 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

If stating the obvious is seen as being on a high horse…….

70
 compost 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

I'm just thankful that we have people who are willing to give up their precious time to go out in those conditions with little knowledge of the circumstances and without advance judgement. 

1
 DaveHK 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> If stating the obvious is seen as being on a high horse…….

If it's so obvious why bother stating it? I don't think it's a view you're going to find much sympathy with on here, certainly not in the way you expressed it.

2
OP scotthldr 31 Jan 2022
In reply to compost:

I agree, doesn’t mean we have to abuse them. Yes accidents can and do happen and we never know when we may need to call upon the help of any of the emergency services, however when some individuals can’t risk assess themselves….. Would it be acceptable to store 4 Jerry cans of petrol in front of your open fire place in your living rm , then say but that’s what the fire brigade is there for when your house is ablaze.

63
 Myr 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

All recreational activity in the mountains, even in good weather, is 'unnecessary' and poses some level of risk to mountain rescuers in the event it turns into a rescue. 

You imply that yesterday's weather was categorically different from any other winter day in the high hills. The weather was indeed really bad in the Cairngorms yesterday, but hardly unsurvivable. As demonstrated by the climbing party that located the missing person and by Cairngorm MRT, it is possible for very experienced parties to travel safely in really bad weather in the high hills.

1
 DaveHK 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> I agree, doesn’t mean we have to abuse them. Yes accidents can and do happen and we never know when we may need to call upon the help of any of the emergency services, however when some individuals can’t risk assess themselves….. Would it be acceptable to store 4 Jerry cans of petrol in front of your open fire place in your living rm , then say but that’s what the fire brigade is there for when your house is ablaze.

Oh come on, that's a dreadful analogy.

1
 Martin Hore 31 Jan 2022
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> Three; those that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, who becomes the arbiter of what conditions or activities are reasonable?  Because if it’s a case of the public, or random punters of web forums deciding, climbing and winter walking is f**cked.

Absolutely

1
 rogerwebb 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> When will people start to learn that it’s not ok to go out hill walking/mountaineering/climbing when the forecast shows 60mph plus winds and heavy snow showers. If they want to kill themselves then do it without putting 50 other people at serious risk as well. 

60mph winds and heavy snow showers are not in themselves reasons to stay off the hill. It is bad weather but not atrocious.

2
 kinley2 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

The MWIS forecast for the Cairngorms on Sunday was for a 20mph southerly with 70% cloud free Munros in the morning.

There was a warning that conditions would deteriorate quickly in the afternoon, with rapid escalation of windspeed and snow coming in (probably from about mid afternoon).

It was a fairly benign morning on the Plateau, if a bit monochrome.

You'd be as well to ask when, oh when will people learn to stop posting sanctimonious bilge about hill incidents.

3
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Not to mention that it was actually climbers out in those conditions who rescued the walker... 

1
 Fat Bumbly2 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

You are aware that there was a weather window yesterday. The bad stuff was forecast, but for late afternoon.

This blog is a good read - put a smile on my face

https://tarmachan.blogspot.com/2022/01/winter-returns.html?m=0

Post edited at 19:37
1
 Billhook 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

Perhaps you'd tell us what think about the climbing party who were also out - and bumped into the 'missing' walker?

1
 JohnnyMac 31 Jan 2022
In reply to rogerwebb:

Indeed, the forecast was for « later » and was pretty much spot on yesterday, the snow was intermittent from mid afternoon at least on An Socach.

Post edited at 19:49
1
 girlymonkey 31 Jan 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

The year I did my winter mountain leader assessment, I went out 5 days a week in mostly those sorts of conditions (it really was a crazy winter, the only thing it was good for was navigation practice and learning to deal with wind!) for 2 months. Was I stupid? I passed my WML very comfortably as nothing fazed me! 

4
In reply to scotthldr:

You want a 100% safety record? Stay home, lock the door, go to bed.

1
In reply to scotthldr:

If mountain rescuers don't like the type of people they are rescuing then they could always stop volunteering ....

2
In reply to scotthldr:

It could be argued that all call outs are unnecessary to some degree or other.

Al

1
 jpicksley 01 Feb 2022
In reply to The worst job I ever had:

Lying in bed for days on end may well give you DVTs though. Then you'll need an ambulance...

2
In reply to scotthldr:

> What an absolute arrogant view. Is it ok for someone to go to sea on an inflatable ring in a force 10 storm because the RNLI are voluntary and therefore must like putting  their lives in danger rescuing the uneducated.

It's no coincidence that you will rarely, if ever, see MRT condemn hill walkers and climbers for pursuing those activities regardless of the weather conditions or their level of preparedness. There's a reason for that, and you may like to consider that before labelling others as arrogant.

1
 kwoods 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

What a mad thread, it's almost like a wind up. I'd think most folk that have spent time on the hills get the picture. Skills and experience buffer against big environments. It's just like all others types of climbing. What isn't fun about going out in crazy winds, snow and getting back out of it? It's a great feeling. Do it enough and it becomes enjoyable. If it feels wrong, it is wrong. Seems to me like risk tolerance is ultimately up to the individual.

1
 Rich W Parker 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

Given that about a quarter of a million people die in the UK every year from smoking and lifestyle diseases I say fair play to people getting out and giving things a go. Yes, much better if they make good choices when they do.

1
 Stichtplate 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> If stating the obvious is seen as being on a high horse…….

When you wrote "stating the obvious", I think what you meant to write was "stating the tiny minority view held by me and hardly anyone else"

2
In reply to scotthldr:

It can't just be me thinking you're on a wind up. 

Feel like I'm being caught hook, line and sinker here but 60mph+ winds and heavy snow showers can still be a type 1 fun day out. 

1
 65 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

You are Dorothy Grace Elder and I claim my €5.

1
 Scomuir 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

Just like you, I don't know the detailed  circumstances of what happened, but it was benign earlier in the day, due to the ridge of high pressure, as forecasted.   I was up Ben Wyvis in the morning.  Nothing out of the ordinary weather wise, and perfectly reasonable to be out.  Stuff happens. 

Just out of curiosity, how do you think the rescuers got the experience to be out in that weather....?

2
 Jim Fraser 01 Feb 2022
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> You may like to consider the following:

> We are fortunate to live in a free society and they had every right to go on the hill. While it may or may not have been wise to go on the hill, we should defend our liberties jealously.

> Mountain rescue are volunteers whom choose to go on the hill, to help fellow mountaineers and others in distress.

> Three; those that live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, who becomes the arbiter of what conditions or activities are reasonable?  Because if it’s a case of the public, or random punters of web forums deciding, climbing and winter walking is f**cked.

What he said. 

2
 Cog 01 Feb 2022
In reply to Stichtplate:

>  I think what you meant to write was "stating the tiny minority view held by me and hardly anyone else"

Many people who don't go out on the hills share that view.

1
 kwoods 01 Feb 2022
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

> It can't just be me thinking you're on a wind up. 

> Feel like I'm being caught hook, line and sinker here but 60mph+ winds and heavy snow showers can still be a type 1 fun day out. 

That's what I thought but who'd want to sound like a Daily Mail reader?!

1

Why should we care about the views of those who don't walk on the hills?

My mother in law for example believes and has offered to me the opinion a few times, that anyone venturing on to steep ground or large hills is selfish and irresponsible and risking not just their own lives but the others who inevitably have to rescue them blah blah blahhhh. She aims that at anyone and everything that is beyond her personal comfort level (which is a brisk walk on the North Norfolk coast). Just smile and nod and change the subject.

Arguably the opinion that matters most on this thread, or any rescue one, would be that of the Mountain/cave/mine/coastal/etc/etc  Rescue Team in question. It would be a better and more informed view than perhaps my (or your) mother in law, or any other random non mountain walking people for that matter.

1
 Stichtplate 01 Feb 2022
In reply to Cog:

> Many people who don't go out on the hills share that view.

People offering their opinions on matters of which they have no knowledge, experience or insight aren’t “stating the obvious’. They’re guessing from a position of blind ignorance.

2
 Tom Valentine 01 Feb 2022
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Yes you would have thought that UKC people would be supportive of rescue teams and  their opinions. Unless, of course,  they ask you to stay off the hills for a few weeks.

5
 ScraggyGoat 01 Feb 2022
In reply to Tom Valentine:

It’s not MRTs remit to ‘police’ the hills.

2
 Fat Bumbly2 01 Feb 2022
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

Treated my better half to one of those on her birthday - kid you not she loved it (Meall Dearg, Amulree) and often brings up the memories.  Def Type 1

To make matters more interesting we had only just returned from West Africa.

1
 Root1 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

60mph? That's a gentle zephyr in the Cairngorms.

1
 yorkshireman 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> however when some individuals can’t risk assess themselves….. 

Surely this is the point. Those that can't properly assess risk (relative to their skills and equipment) are always going to be the ones more likely to get into trouble. 

But what is the alternative? A licence and test to go out on the hills? I'm pretty sure the people in this case have learned a lot from the experience. 

1
 C Witter 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> If they want to kill themselves then do it without putting 50 other people at serious risk

If you want to deal in Daily Fail style sensationalism, moral hypocrisy and a sense of superiority based on little more than ignorance combined with generalised callousness, then fair enough. But could you do please do it without the good people of these forums having to be put at serious risk of face-palming injuries?

3
 ChrisJD 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> If they want to kill themselves then do it without putting 50 other people at serious risk as well. 

Perhaps you should campaign for the MRT to be renamed FW-MRT

Fair Weather Mountain Rescue Team.

That way, any call during inclement weather can be met with;

'nope, sorry, can't come to help as you shouldn't have gone out' 

/s

1
 65 01 Feb 2022
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> It’s not MRTs remit to ‘police’ the hills.

I don't think that is remotely what Tom was getting at.  

During 2020, several Highland rescue teams requested that people refrained from doing anything risky in the hills so as to avoid potentially exposing team members to Covid risks and adding to the strain on resource limited Highland medical facilities. 

3
 Welsh Kate 01 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

With respect, I do find it wearing when people express outrage on behalf of myself and my colleagues in Mountain Rescue. I don't judge the people we go out and find and walk off and carry off.* Like the vast majority of my colleagues, I'm in MR because I enjoy helping people, enjoy the challenge, and - frankly - enjoy being out in crappy conditions with my mates. I get more frustrated with armchair critics than our 'clients' who will at least learn from their experiences and probably as a result be able to enjoy the hills a bit more safely next time.

*Well I did, once, in over a decade of callouts, when a group leader led their group into well-forecast atrocious conditions which the group was quite obviously totally unprepared for. But only that once.

1
In reply to scotthldr:

7/10. Strong effort, but I've marked you down for coming back to the thread several times to fan the smouldering kindling into flame, and because you've united the entire of UKC in agreement. 

3
 Mike-W-99 02 Feb 2022
In reply to 65:

> During 2020, several Highland rescue teams requested that people refrained from doing anything risky in the hills so as to avoid potentially exposing team members to Covid risks and adding to the strain on resource limited Highland medical facilities. 

They did a lot more than that, asked to not go walking at all no matter how big or small the hill was.

3
Andy Gamisou 02 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

> What an absolute arrogant view. Is it ok for someone to go to sea on an inflatable ring in a force 10 storm because the RNLI are voluntary and therefore must like putting  their lives in danger rescuing the uneducated.

Suggest you look up fallacy "Reductio ad absurdum".

> Would it be acceptable to store 4 Jerry cans of petrol in front of your open fire place in your living rm , then say but that’s what the fire brigade is there for when your house is ablaze.

... and do so with some haste.  Although in this case wouldn't this actually be totally safe so long as you didn't open the jerry cans?

Post edited at 05:58
3
 CurlyStevo 02 Feb 2022
In reply to rogerwebb:

One of the problems here is that wind speed forecast even at low levels is notoriously inaccurate. Timing of when a front arrives is somewhat better.

With a 60 gusts forecast it’s very likely they could be less, but also quite feasible the forecast is approximately correct (and possible to exceed the forecast). 50 mph gusts are for most very bad weather, but not atrocious. Whilst 70 mph is a different ball game completely. I’ve been out in gusts in the 60’s and it was atrocious and I made a promise to my self to avoid that in future.

A friend of mine who was an extremely fit and an ex athlete, who has put up a fair amount of new winter routes, once took several hours to get back to Corrie cas car park from Coire an t'Sneachda in southerly gusts in the 60’s on a weather window day. From his reports it was quite an ordeal not something he wished to repeat. He may not have made it if the wind speed was 10 mph more. I suppose one of the lessons here would be to take wind direction in to account and which direction you’ll likely be travelling in if you do mis time the weather window. There have been deaths in the past ‘quite close’ to the car park IIRC with very strong southerly winds in the past.

I am a great believer in people being personally responsible for their choices in the hills and mountains. It is however easy to underestimate the seriousness of wind forecasted in the 60+ mph region IMO. The fact the forecast is usually the worst wind speed likely to be encountered can also lead to problems, as people going out in 60 mph forecast but only finding 40 will be positively reinforced that it’s no bother (much like travelling over avalanche prone terrain that doesn’t tend to give way, but eventually catches someone out)

Post edited at 08:09
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 DaveHK 02 Feb 2022
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Suggest you look up fallacy "Reductio ad absurdum".

> ... and do so with some haste.  Although in this case wouldn't this actually be totally safe so long as you didn't open the jerry cans?

Maybe you could look up Charles Law?  

1
 Tringa 03 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

My you have stirred things up!

I agree with you completely. I think there is a world of difference by someone being caught out by a sudden change in the weather, making a navigational error or having an accident and needing to be rescued, and someone going out when severe weather is forecast and needing to be rescued.

Although the forecast for earlier in that day was reasonable, severe weather was forecast for later in the day. Things clearly turned bad as the two walkers got separated and it seems turning back would have been a better option. I accept people make mistakes but this did not look like a day to be out on the hill.

However, from the replies, it appears our opinions are in minority.

Dave

30
 Howard J 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

> I accept people make mistakes but this did not look like a day to be out on the hill.

Surely that is a matter for individual judgement?  Going out expecting bad weather and being prepared for it but nevertheless making a mistake and ending up in trouble is not the same as recklessly disregarding the forecast and going out in conditions which you don't have the experience or the equipment to cope with. 

There's nothing in the report to suggest that these weren't 'proper' walkers who got caught out, rather than numpties in jeans and trainers.  However neither situation is more or less deserving of rescue. 

 Graeme G 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

> this did not look like a day to be out on the hill.

At what point does a day move from being acceptable to unacceptable?

Le Sapeur 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

> However, from the replies, it appears our opinions are in minority.

When I first read about this rescue my initial thought was what on earth were they doing out when the forecast was so awful. One of, if not the biggest storm of the season was heading in and the slightest delay in their plans could have been catastrophic. Almost was. 

Don't agree with the op's wording though.

8
 DaveHK 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Le Sapeur:

> When I first read about this rescue my initial thought was what on earth were they doing out when the forecast was so awful. One of, if not the biggest storm of the season was heading in and the slightest delay in their plans could have been catastrophic.

The morning was forecast to be and was in fact benign. Plenty of others made good use of that window with no drama. Accidents happen.

Post edited at 11:57
1
 Mark Bannan 03 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

>….. Would it be acceptable to store 4 Jerry cans of petrol in front of your open fire place in your living rm...

Go on, give it a go! I dare you! Make sure you keep the cans open, though!

Post edited at 12:07
 Mark Bannan 03 Feb 2022
In reply to kwoods:

> What a mad thread, it's almost like a wind up...

Or a troll.

In reply to Tringa:

> However, from the replies, it appears our opinions are in minority.

I personally have many issues with the OP, mostly of the sort already expressed in the thread and so not needing further elaboration. Something which does seem to have escaped the thread so far though: it is inevitable that someone, somewhere, will eventually be caught out by the weather — whether it be because of forecast inaccuracies, or planning errors, or...whatever. It is always going to happen.

Do you think that experiencing 'wild' weather in a planned and safe manner would increase the chances of a happy ending when the shit unexpectedly hits the fan? Obviously planned and safe didn't quite work out for these guys, but I really don't understand and don't have time for the cries of 'people shouldn't go out in bad weather!'. It's nonsensical. It's perfectly possible to remain safe and have an enjoyable time out in the conditions that were experienced. I personally relish being out in those conditions and putting my skills properly to the test deliberately rather than only when I've been caught in an afternoon storm. I feel it gives me the best possible chance of retaining some semblance of control when it does inevitably go wrong.

I'm surprised, to be honest, that any experienced mountain-goer would think otherwise. Knowing your own personal limitations is important; recognising that they are yours and not universal is also important.

3
 Fat Bumbly2 03 Feb 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

No doubt the same today. Had a good time in windy but benign weather. Would not be out now though. 

The implication that you cannot responsibly use a break on the weather because of what may come in later is disturbing. Shows how much any “hill polis” can shift goalposts

Hills don’t play by the rules (Hamish Brown)

2
 kwoods 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Mark Bannan:

I thought they were the same thing!

In reply to scotthldr:

Hard to not sound like an arrogant knob, but I'll try. One of my most memorable recent days out was on the fairly benign Ben Lomond in windy conditions. My weather geek friend recorded an instantaneous gust of 126mph and a steady 70+mph. Nobody died, nobody got called out, a handful of well equipped people had a quality day out. Some other people turned back. They were probably both right.

4
In reply to steveriley:

I've had similar experiences. I did the full Snowdon Horseshoe during Storm Brian a few years ago. Studied the forecast, checked which direction the wind would be hitting Crib Goch from, decided to go take a look, considering I know the terrain well enough to know where and how to bail if it's not okay, and lo and behold had a lovely day out. We run into a couple of guides having a bimble once back down, but no-one else on the hills.

2
In reply to steveriley:

"Had I succeeded well, I had been reckoned amongst the wise." 

1
In reply to Myr:

> All recreational activity in the mountains, even in good weather, is 'unnecessary' and poses some level of risk to mountain rescuers in the event it turns into a rescue. 

> You imply that yesterday's weather was categorically different from any other winter day in the high hills. The weather was indeed really bad in the Cairngorms yesterday, but hardly unsurvivable. As demonstrated by the climbing party that located the missing person and by Cairngorm MRT, it is possible for very experienced parties to travel safely in really bad weather in the high hills.

If I lived closer I'd happily get togged up and pay for an experienced guide to take me out in it. Sounds like fun.

As it happens I live closer to the fens, so more likely to experience a black-out following a muck spreading tractor.

We haven't had decent snow for years and years.

1
 Webster 03 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

60mph winds and snow, thats a nice relaxing day in the 'Norries! try 130mph winds and sleet and we may have some sympathy for your view!

5
 Fat Bumbly2 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Webster:

It's when car windows start breaking in the car park, you know that perhaps Abernethy Forest may be a better day out than Coire an t-Sneachda.

1
 Root1 03 Feb 2022
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Do you mean Northerly winds?

1
 CurlyStevo 03 Feb 2022
In reply to Root1:

Yeah northerly you’re right. 

1
 Drew52 03 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

There’s been a few posts like this before. It’s usually by someone trolling, they have minimal mountaineering or climbing experience or they are just jealous they are not getting out in the hills.

The amount of ascents historically done in poor weather are enormous. A good climber and mountaineer knows how to look at weather windows and go for it. 

1
 Tringa 04 Feb 2022
In reply to steveriley:

I think your friend need a new anemometer if it is recording a steady 70+ mph wind and people were still standing up.

Dave

2
 Mark Bannan 04 Feb 2022
In reply to kwoods:

Definitely some common ground, but I understand a troll must be an online wind-up.

 CurlyStevo 04 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

I'm fairly well built and I've been blown over on more that one occasion and had to crouch down for shelter in winds that higher up on the top of cairngorm at the weather station were only in the 60's (mph). 120 mph can easily lift you up off your feet.

I think there must be some confusion with people insinuating that wind approaching 70 mph is a standard day out. You can't trust the forecasts as they are normally an over estimate or could apply only to a short time period. Check the weather stations when you get home to see what the real speeds were and then try and guesstimate from that (wind normally increases with height, relief of the land etc).

I remember the case of those young guys that died in the northern corries (were they from aberdean?), they weren't very well equipped IIRC, but they were quite close to close the corrie cas car park, The wind was against them and I believe around 80 mph. There is no way I'd want to plan to be out in winds approaching 80 mph personally (and I mean personally here).

That's not to say I wouldn't go out and try and catch a weather window before the storm, but you do need to know when to bin it and head back! Being able to read synoptic charts for yourself can help here to give extra information on top of the forecasts.

Post edited at 09:34
1
In reply to Tringa:

Ok, those readings would likely have been around the time we were locked into ground with axes and crampons.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

You have no moral right to just rock up wherever on a whim and put others at risk and potentially cost the NHS as well. I know shit can happen and I have no issue with a well equipped party having an accident. This lemming like behaviour is typical of the modern entitled dependency culture mindset and the totally misguided power of social media suggesting potentially dangerous places to visit. Last winter I was again stopped on Kinder by a team of ill equipped idiots, staring at a phone and asking where they were and what could they do? I suggested learning to use a map and compass might help, before finally relenting and pointing them in the right direction. On freedom to do what you want, what would you think of a team setting off up Mont Blanc in trainers or at least ill equipped? It happens, to such an extent that there is often a police presence at the Tete Rousse.

36
 kinley2 04 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

> You have no moral right to just rock up wherever on a whim and put others at risk and potentially cost the NHS as well.....

Sorry to rain on your parade, but we have no Morality Police in this country (just look at the Government FFS).

In terms of going out on hills, at least since the Pandemic restrictions robbed the Stirling Branch of Police Scotland of the capacity to charge hillwalkers for Reckless Endangerment on a whim, you are within your legal rights to "rock up wherever on a whim" etc without worrying about the legal (or moral) framework....if you are so inclined.

1
 mountainbagger 04 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

> You have no moral right to just drive wherever on a whim and put others at risk and potentially cost the NHS as well. I know shit can happen and I have no issue with people in a sensible car having an accident. This lemming like behaviour is typical of the modern entitled dependency culture mindset and the totally misguided power of social media suggesting potentially dangerous places to drive to. Last week I was again stopped whilst walking on the pavement by someone in a cr*ppy old car, staring at a phone and asking where they were and what could they do? I suggested getting a proper in-car GPS might help, before finally relenting and pointing them in the right direction.

FTFY

2
 The Lemming 04 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

Seems like I came to the party late.

I have played out in far worse conditions in the UK.

Was I irresponsible?

Hopefully enough people in the discussion have told you to wind your neck in.

1
 The Lemming 04 Feb 2022
In reply to The Lemming:

Bugger.

Got caught by a troll.

Bravo.

 Fat Bumbly2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:Even in a period of good weather. This is the problem with the wannabe Hill Police, where they set the bar. Nasty coming in 12 hours… shut everything down. The day in question was a weather window.

What next..” they set out when there was snow in the ground” , not that we don’t hear that nonsense enough already

 DaveHK 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Tringa:

> I think your friend need a new anemometer if it is recording a steady 70+ mph wind and people were still standing up.

> Dave

When I hear people talking about being out walking or whatever in 100mph winds my first thought is always 'naw ye wurnae'.

People are really bad at judging wind speed, myself included.

 Duncan Bourne 05 Feb 2022
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

Free country my arse. Look at the trouble this poor fellow gets for exercising his liberty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34140955

1
 GrahamD 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Do you think he'd be able to "stand up" in 70mph winds ?

 Duncan Bourne 05 Feb 2022
In reply to GrahamD:

Could be some turbulance

In reply to The worst job I ever had:

> You want a 100% safety record? Stay home, lock the door, go to to bed

Plenty of folks doing that. They don’t live to 70.

In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

I have no problem with people accessing the hills under any and every conditions whatsoever as long as they take personal responsibility to get up and down safely. Going out under snow conditions and bad weather wearing trainers, no waterproofs and without a map or compass is to me unacceptable and criticism is nothing to do with hill police but thoughtless incompetence on a grand scale and when the shit hits the fan fully expect someone else to sort it out for them. It may be a generational thing but for me whenever we set foot on a hill, went down a cave or climbed a mountain, we took full responsibility for our actions. A few times over the years this resulted in self rescues, as to us the greatest ignominy was to be rescued by outside agencies. 

1
 kinley2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

> I have no problem with people accessing the hills under any and every conditions whatsoever as long as they take personal responsibility to get up and down safely. Going out under snow conditions and bad weather wearing trainers, no waterproofs and without a map or compass is to me unacceptable ............. 

Unless you are in MR (or the Stirling Division of Police Scotland) then it really matters not a whit to most of the people you are talking about as to your opinion.

In that setting you're an old ?bloke tutting and going on about "youngsters today" and talking about "when I were a lad" on a social media platform that most younger participants in hillwalking/climbing would probably not use and would consider quaint.

You're preaching to the choir about preparedness and self-reliance here, but the world has moved on. Up until about the 90's getting help would mean someone going to get help. The roll out of Mobiles and the huge ramp up in signal penetration means that it's far easier to seek assistance.

Easy to overstate one's self-reliance when it was in an era before help was a mobile phone call away.

Not that it doesn't make me wince to see some of the lack of prep and core skills regularly advertised on social media.... 

3
 kinley2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

> ...........................Going out under snow conditions and bad weather wearing trainers, no waterproofs and without a map or compass is to me unacceptable...........................

Oh, and in terms of this thread, I was coming down into the Northern Coires from the Macdui direction on the day in question. We dropped a bit earlier than necessary as we needed to head down the road.

Suspect there's a fair chance we passed the pair in question, didn't see any shorts or trainers on the day and there's no indication from MR that the people involved weren't equipped (at least in terms of gear).

 Dave Hewitt 05 Feb 2022
In reply to kinley2:

> Unless you are in MR (or the Stirling Division of Police Scotland) then it really matters not a whit to most of the people you are talking about as to your opinion.

As far as I'm aware it never happened, but it would have been interesting had one of the more zealous police officers nabbed one of the MRT people who was going out recreationally during the period when the MRT edict was not to go out...

Incidentally, I too was out on last weekend's "weather window" day, admittedly just on the eastern Ochils, very familiar territory. Conditions there were OK but not great, and quite unstable - it looked like suddenly caving in at one point then improved again. I was glad just to be out for only three hours or so, and no higher than 600-odd metres - and was also glad to be somewhere I knew well in terms of escape routes and leeward options. That aspect of things tends not to get discussed much in terms of these situations - eg I'm clearly not alone in "using" local familiar hills as sort of bad-weather training for days when I might get caught in poor conditions on more awkward and less familiar terrain.

 Graham Booth 05 Feb 2022
In reply to scotthldr:

Man, ever heard of reading the room…

or heard of the saying, there by the grace of his go I?

im sure toy live an utterly risk less lifestyle….

In reply to scotthldr:

I’m not really able to judge wind speed, but I have been out in the mountains in some pretty wild weather.

The worst was this:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2002/jan/29/weather.climatechange

We were knew bad weather was coming, but planned to be up Tower Ridge and off Ben Nevis before it arrived. My mate decided to bugger up descending in to Tower Gap, resulting in a fall down Glover's Chimney and me taking a jump off the ridge to counterbalance him. We where fine, but it took us a while to sort ourselves out and we topped out in the dark in the face of worsening weather.

We decided to sit the storm out in the emergency shelter. Only problem was, in the morning it was much worse. We ended up crawling off the summit on our hands and knees, following a bearing. Further down the mountain, we were about to walk, but regular gusts would blow us off our feet. Often we could feel the wind coming and throw ourselves at the ground to try and minimise the injury risk. Descent, which would perhaps normally be a fairly easy three hours by that route, took us an exhausting eight hours.

The article states that winds of 120 miles an hour were recorded on the summit of Ben Nevis, I don’t know if we experienced that, or where in shelter at that time, but it was certainly windy.

Mountaineers will sometimes go out in what is by any measure bad weather, other times they will plan to snatch a route or summit in a weather window, but get caught out. Two of the key skills of mountaineering are managing risk and having the resources (mental, physical, equipment) to extract yourself from difficult situations if things don’t quite go to plan.

 Fat Bumbly2 05 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

You seem to have stepped back from full Grace Elder further up thread.  Thank you

However in your sorting sheep from goats, is there any evidence that the unfortunates rescued that day fail your standards?

Post edited at 17:57

In the 1980,s the combined Lake District MR teams were called out less than 100 times a year on average. Last year the figure was 680 for and I quote “clueless idiots, mainly lost “ Similar outcomes for teams in all areas. Tells you all you need to know.

9
In reply to Philb1950:

I've got various annual reports for Lake District teams from the last 25 years. Those reports, don't really support your claim, for example the Langdale team had 93 call outs in 2012, less than 10% of those where searches, in more than half those cases people were delayed, but didn't need assistance I.e. They turned up whilst the search was being organised. The main need for MRT assistance is and always has been slips and falls leading to lower limb injuries.

Post edited at 14:53
In reply to The New NickB:

Just accept the facts, Wasdale 35% of call outs, lost. Snowdon 216 call outs, 33%, lost.  Peak teams similar. “ they weren’t people injured, just lost” quote team leader.

7
In reply to Philb1950:

And finally Kev Mitchell who represents 23 of the country’s 27 teams sails “we have a similar problem. Phone mapping apps are no substitute for a map and compass and the ability to use them”

5
 JohnnyMac 07 Feb 2022
In reply to Philb1950:

Theres now a permanent check, there’s no getting past the couloir without a tête rousse or goûter booking these days.

In reply to Philb1950:

It's "the ability to use them" that's the important part.

 JOC1 09 Feb 2022

This is an interesting topic and a huge assortment of questions arise:

a)  Should all people putting themselves in potentially dangerous situations be sufficiently trained and prepared?

b)  Should anyone that wants to walk on open land be prevented from doing so?

c) Have we a right to condem the unprepared?

d)  Should rescuers rescue only those who are prepared, but then lucked out?

e)  Would rescue teams get bored if there was no-one to rescue?

f)   Do the unprepared need rescuing more than those who are prepared?

etc.

In the example quoted in the OP the small amount of information in the Twitter report in my opinion is not really sufficient to form an opinion on whether the parties involved were prepared for the conditions.  My profession is risk assessment and I do know that you can do any amount of preparing and take every precaution equipment wise, but you will never beat random chance events and the dubious creature that is Luck!  Says the person that once fell 30ft down a steep sided gulley in the Peak District on a perfectly dry summer afternoon following a well trodden tail using walking poles whilst carrying rucksack containing map, compass, survival sack, torch, signal mirror, food, water, first-aid kit, waterproofs etc. and having read the full contents of the mountain leader handbook and done lots of previous walking.  I would say I was about as prepared as any average walker is.  Luckily I walked out with a substanitially brusied and grazed elbow and not a lot else wrong except for damaged pride.  To this day I don't know what caused the fall, but I don't recall the tripping part and can only assume that I'd momentarily blacked out.  The incident still actually causes hillarity when told by my fellow walkers that day who said it was like a Tom and Jerry cartoon - they turned around and where I had been previously there was literally just a cloud of dust!

Although I'm sure they don't make the comparisons, I'd like to think that had I needed a rescue party that they would not have possibly not inwardly groaned about me being someone being unprepared on the hills.  Though I must admit it is very easy to be over-righteous over such things - reading the thread here is a very interesting discourse of views and has made me re-consider my own perspective.  I must admit I've never been overly fond of what I call the 'flip-flop' brigade.  Anyone that has walked Lulworth Cove to Durdle Door will have encountered them.  Those people that set off on what I'm sure they don't know is a fairly strenuous walk over less than even ground often literally wearing plastic 'flip flops' and a summer outfit without even as much as a bottle of water on a hot day.  I've always thought it rather a foolhardy thing to do.  Although it has to be said that most of them probably survive the trek, but I do wonder if any of them actually do fall on the bad side of 'Luck' and need to be rescued?  Then I wonder is the rescue of such people (which yes, I do think places the rescuers at risk) preventable.  Well some incidents probably are with a little more education, but as I experienced, even planning and reasonable preparation, doesn't make you immune when Luck isn't with you and I am not sure how you get around that.  Luck has got to be with you whether you are prepared or not.  Preparedness probably means the Lucking out is easier to deal with, but it will never prevent it or remove the need for the presence of wonderful people like the rescuers who exist in all walks of life and for those people we must be very thankful.

Post edited at 20:15
1
In reply to Philb1950:

> In the 1980,s the combined Lake District MR teams were called out less than 100 times a year on average. Last year the figure was 680 for and I quote “clueless idiots, mainly lost “ Similar outcomes for teams in all areas. Tells you all you need to know.

It is not easy to find call out figures for the 1980s for all of the Lake District MR teams, however they are easily available for Langdale and Keswick.

Looking at the years 1983, 1984 and 1985, the average number of annual call outs for just those two teams was 113, so your suggestion that the combined Lake District MR teams were called out less than a 100 times a year on average, is clearly complete nonsense.

Post edited at 18:16

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