UKC

Today I had an experience with some horses in a field which I found quite scary, so thought I'd post here for advice and thoughts from the hive mind. There is quite a lot of information / opinion out there, but much of it doesn't really seem relevant to this scenario (eg all official advice I've seen focussed on ensuring people and dogs don't worry horses, rather than the other way round), or is contradictory depending on whether the discussions are taking place between horse owners or non horse owners.

So, as background I am a relatively new dog owner, and while being aware of the risks that cows can pose to me / my dog while walking, (and therefore would try very hard to avoid walking through a field with cows in with a dog, and would know to let the dog loose if we accidentally ended up near cows and they chased us), I had never heard anything about horses other than making sure the dog's on the lead and doesn't scare them.

So, the situation:

My partner and I entered a large field with our dog on a lead, and began walking along the footpath that ran through it. Four horses were in the middle of the field, and pretty quickly they seemed to take interest in us and started slowly walking towards us. We decided to stick to the edge of the field rather than cut across it diagonally which is where the footpath went, to stay away from them.

After stopping for a short while the horses then continued towards us a bit faster, and came right up to us. Partner tried shouting and waving arms to scare them off but didn't do much. Dog, who had been fairly chilled until this point started barking and growling at them, so I got down to try and settle him (not wanting him to rile the horses up), turning my back on the horses (was this dangerous?). All four were very close now and one came right up to me and sniffed the back of my head, before partner's arm waving or dog barking presumably took effect and they backed off. We continued walking, but the horses then began running towards us, narrowly passing us before circling round to repeat. After they did this the first time I picked up dog and we headed for the nearest scaleable bit of fence. The horses kept running past us (getting far too close for comfort) and then circling round for another pass the whole way there. Once over the fence in a field of crops the horses watched us as we composed ourselves. 

We then made our way past an expansive house (with a horse practice yard, so potentially the horse owners) next to the crop field towards a road, whereupon a little girl ran over and informed us that we were on private property and weren't allowed to be there! An adult quickly followed who was reasonable, and gave us consent to walk down their driveway to the road (not that we would have returned to the field with horses in even if she hadn't given consent at that point!). Her advice was that if we had shouted at the horses and waved our arms they would have been scared off (maybe partner just didn't shout enough and I should have joined in...) 

So I guess questions / thoughts:

Is that normal horse behaviour? I've never experienced anything like it, so presume it was due to the dog's presence but none of the advice pages I've read mention anything like this happening, and they all seem to indicate that dogs will chase horses rather than the other way round.

Were we in real danger or not? The horses didn't whinny or rear up with hooves flailing or anything, but I was all too conscious of how big and heavy horses are as they were running towards us, and how easily it could have kicked me when one of them got up close and personal at the start. Can't work out whether they were being curious or aggressive.

Anyone else ever had anything like this happen, or any general advice around horses? 

In reply to AukWalk:

I can only twice recall problem horses. One was a 'thoroughbred' type in a field, who seemed to want me off the premises. I simply stood my ground and shouted at it to eff off. The other was a fell pony in the Lakes who I mistakenly fed an apple core to. She followed me for ages until I scrambled up a crag to escape.

In reply to Lankyman:

she's probably still mourning the loss of your food-friendship

In reply to AukWalk:

Horses come from herd living herbivore  "prey animals" and are very social.  I'm not an expert but have met them many many times and tend to seek out contact if possible as I enjoy their company.

Sounds to me as if everything you describe is curiosity followed by nervous excitement/defensive behaviour.  The circling round sounds like defensive herd behaviour - coralling the threat to contain it?

Remember always that animals may have had previous contact with dogs that have been threatening or even attacking and they learn responses from that contact.

In reply to AukWalk:

As a child myself and friends would regularly play football in a field containing several horses. They would occasionally charge at us as described and scare the living shit out of us, but they never hurt us.... I just thought they did it for the fun of it!? 

In reply to AukWalk:

I’d say if it’s not the usual response you have with horses then it’s perhaps unique to this ‘band’ of horses (correct term for a group I believe). I’m assuming a lot here but it’s fairly common for horse owners (especially those with their own field onsite) to also own dogs and usually both sets of animals are pretty used to each other so it might not be the dog that was the issue.

type of breed of horse/foals present/geldings (or not) etc all influence the nature of the group. If it was a private field they are likely only used to ‘their’ humans and were initially curious about you then (as someone else has said) became nervous/excited displayed with the charging and circling.

With experience and knowledge about a specific animal their behaviour becomes easier to read and our own behaviour can be tailored to work with the situation.

My partner keeps a horse in a field with a couple of others. One of them is a retired show jumper, massive and very friendly! However his favourite game is to charge at me then stop right in front of me, as I know the ‘game’ I’m able to stay pretty calm, if I didn’t know this horse and like your situation just entered the field with no prior knowledge of his behaviour/character and less experience with horses naturally it would be very intimidating!

horses are pretty cool creatures and definitely worth spending some time with them if you have the opportunity 

In reply to AukWalk:

I spent a some of my youth riding and working with horses, but I wouldn't consider myself an 'expert'.  I have also worked with cattle.  And I've owned a couple of dogs over the last 20 odd years.  Here's my take-

Both horses and cattle can be curious, especially if they've just been put out in a new field.  Young cattle & horses will soon get used to walkers, with or without dogs and soon learn to ignore them.

Trouble with horses is they get used to being fed by us humans.  And as has been said they are also 'prey' animals so they can sometimes feel threatened by something new and unknown - which is probably unlikely here.  But then along comes  someone who looks like the person who puts out their feed and they'll sometimes mistake you for their owner, or have got used to members of the public offering the tit bits.

Either way, they may want to get to you.  You start running away and their inquisitive behaviour means they'll follow you.  The quicker you run, the faster they'll run.  And I know who'll win!!.  (I have had this happen to me a few times when I was younger).

My advice, based on my experience only, is stand your ground and back off if necessary, if you really feel frightened.  Run and I know who'll win.   The issue with this is that most cattle are inherently fearful of humans and curious too.   - they'll follow you even if you run -= but the minute you stop they'll get as close as they dare and stop too- even at full gallop.  The minute you move away, they'll continue to follow you again, and so on until they get bored or you've jumped the fence

Horses are much the same - except they don't have that inherent fear of humans, they can bite (cattle cannot), and one of their defence mechanisms is to turn around and give a fearsome back kick that can/.could easily do you damage.  Again, I'd suggest standing your ground.  You can;'t outrun a horse.  Stand still and avoid frightening the horses in case they see you as a threat or something to be fearful of.  Slowly put your hands out and see if the horse wants to sniff at you and slowly walk directly to the horse.  Almost all horses will have had their owners back them off this way into and out of stables and horse boxes so they should be used to walking/backing off.  

Waving your hands around and shouting can of course work too - but just remember if you frighten the horse/s too much they may think you are a threat.  And that means a quick spin around to escape you - but not before they've fended you off by lashing out with their rear legs as they gallop off.

Good luck

In reply to Lankyman:

I made this mistake while sitting in my car on a rainy day in a dartmoor car park. Took me nearly an hour to get it's head out of the window so I could leave!

In reply to AukWalk:

I've owned horses for about 25 years.

Based on what you've said, they probably percieved the barking, growing dog as a threat. The running at you and circling behaviour you've described will be the herd's way of seeing off a predator (in their eyes). When my mare had her foal, she would run at and circle around the yard owner's dog when it wandered into their field. Generally, horses won't behave that way with their owners or people who normally handle them. I hope not anyway.

Unless I was 100% certain that the dog would be calm and ignore horses, you could not pay me enough to take a dog into a field with loose horses, especially ones I didn't know. Some of them do not like dogs, and others might tolerate dogs if they encounter them on a trail, but take a view of strange ones in their field.

In reply to Emily_pipes:

I took our three big dogs on a walk with my wife who was riding our neighbours horse, which is bombproof and not at all bothered by anything in the slightest. We ended up at a gate through a field with about 12 young bullocks in. The bridle way ran down the side of the field in a ‘channel’. The bulls came over, interested in no doubt all in our party.. I was mildly perturbed when they started acting like my dogs do when they’re excited by bucking around, up the grassy embankment. We got through to the other end without being trampled, the bulls were quite timid, and would back off I approached them. A rather exciting couple of hundred yards that I’d have rather done without  

In reply to AukWalk:

I've heard that a good punch is what those who know about these things do.

In reply to AukWalk:

Remember in school when a supply teacher who couldn't control children took a lesson? Remember a hardnut teacher everyone was scared of? Same class of kids but very different behaviour. Horses a very much like naughty children.

Whilst being kind and fair, you need to be the hardnut teacher not the supply teacher, they can smell fear. Humans are their boss. If they misbehave look them directly in the eyes (horse body language challenge). Say something in a very firm and take no cr*p tone of voice and quickly loudly clap twice, maintaining eye contact. That'll tell them!

I think they came over to you to see if you had an apple or some feed. Then when you looked scared they became the naughty school kids

In reply to AukWalk:

Horses really don't like some dog breeds, I was told anything fox sized. The behaviour you describe sounds beyond "curious" to me.

A runner friend with a red setter was attacked and trampled two summers ago in the fields up the road here. Take care!

In reply to AukWalk:

Nuke them from orbit….only way to be sure….

In reply to Graham Booth:

This. My mate's highland will try anything she thinks she can get away with, normally involving eating, and also having a good roll immediately after a bath to restore her preferred mud colour, much to her owner's exasperation.

I would also go for some kind of dog issue, plus curiosity and excitement.

Talking of orbits, a while ago the official landing field had a couple of horses in, which provided entertainment for the onlookers and excitement for the horses.

[Setting up to land]
1. Is that big red thing in the sky going to eat me.
[Land in opposite corner]
2. That big red bag looks like it has food in it.
[Hop over fence quick]

Do horses have a race memory of pterodactyls??

In reply to Lankyman:

Hahaha, a dog followed me all the way to the top of Mt Olympus, including an overnight camp and the scramble right at the top, then back down again, all because I fed it a bit of Pepperami!

In reply to mountainbagger:

Ha, don't ever feed Balkan or Caucasus "wild" dogs then - some of them are so acclimatised to climbers and hikers they might even try following you up to the summit or just hop along for a week long alpine hike! On a more serious note, "wild" dogs and crevasses don't mix that well. Not a personal experience, fortunately (!), but heard a few stories of dog crevasse rescue there, some with a good end, some not so much...

In reply to AukWalk:

I spent a lot of time round horses as a youth, I don't recall them ever doing what you describe. I suspect the shouting and barking just got them riled up and excitable. Hard to say how much danger you were in, the obvious conclusion is not much since nobody got kicked but if they are frightened then you're right to worry. Best bet if the dog can do it is stay calm, stay at the head end, say hello the move on. If the ears fold back you're in for a bad time. Bites are bad, kicks worse, trampling terminal.

Dogs and horses can be a bit of a worry, I know mine has tried to start something he and I were going to lose with a jumpy thoroughbred type in the past, luckily there were two of us so I held and distracted the horse while my mrs dragged the daft mutt away through a gate.

They're pretty sensitive to humans, if you can stay calm they probably will too. 

Jk

In reply to AukWalk:

I’ve had similar behaviour from a group of young male cows - footpath bisected the field, when I was in the middle of it they charged at me from the edge; I stood my ground and at the last moment they broke the charge and split round me.  Similar groups often do this even if I’m on the other side of a hedge.  Some mix of curiosity and herd behaviour against a threat?  No dog involved.  Running seemed like a bad idea.  I’ve stood my ground a couple of other times at the edge of a field and they break.  

There’s no way I would walk across the middle of a horse field.  Pretty unusual around here to have a footpath crossing a horse field.  I’d skirt the edges instead ready to jump a fence if needed.  Horses can be utter bastards.  

Under no circumstances *ever* approach a horse from its rear quarters. Always make sure it knows you’re there before you get close. If a horse backs it’s arse towards you or turns it’s rear legs towards you, move away.  If they get spooked, they kick whatever is to their rear and a single blow will kill.  Never let yourself be in kicking range of the hind legs.  Always approach from the front.

I’ve know a couple of people who’ve had a parents killed by their horse; one had owned and ridden the horse for 15 years; one day he walked behind the horse, something spooked it and instinct kicked in.  One kick to the chest and he was dead.

In reply to jkarran:

The most alarming experience I had when I was about 17 was sneaking out from school on a sports afternoon in late autumn and going on a longish walk looking at villages and churches.

By the time I was getting back it was getting dark and I decided to cut a long corner by crossing a sloping field of grass with trees at the top.  The moon had come up and in the moonlight I heard a thundering noise that really put the hairs up on the back of my neck.

It resolved into a very large something galloping down the field from the trees and my instinct was to get the hell out of there quickly.  Fortunately rationality prevailed and I decided to stand my ground and ended up greeting a very large horse, a hunter I'd expect, from the locality.  He was just curious and wanted a chat.

Ever after my first expectation is to meet and greet horses as anewly encountered friend and this seems to work.  I'm sure, being from prey ancestors they don't like the idea of unfamiliar things going round the edge of a field or flanking them and prefer to find out directly if you're friend or foe, assuming there isn't a deep problem with the horse.

Cows, I'm far more wary than I used to be from experience and from the regular reports round here and nationally of incidents.  Never had aggression from highland or belted Galloways though.

In reply to wintertree:

Wow!!  Male cows eh?  Know much about rural matters then?  Oxymoron comes to mind as does birds and the bees.  Heifers & Steers.  

In reply to AukWalk:  I've seen similar behaviour before.  We have a lot of horses around us that are left in large fields for the summer to graze.  Most are friendly but one or two are decidedly aggressive, and decidedly don't like strange dogs (I say strange as the person caring for them has a couple of dogs) , as per Emily Pipes answer.

Cows can be very aggressive to dogs and will actively appoach a dog. If I owned a dog I'd assume that to be the normal and plan for it.

In reply to Billhook:

Well, until 30 seconds ago I thought cow could be used informally for the species.  Grew up in wheat country...  Every day is a school day on UKC.

In reply to wercat:

Belted Galloway...the only cow that has really spooked me, a herd encountered while walking with my wife and dog. In Galloway.

And I used to round up cattle as a child (assisting my dad). I've lost that sense of dominance around them. More sense of what can go wrong coupled with an appreciation of the laws of motion.

In reply to Billhook:

Well.... I'm not sure you're completely correct either but there's people that know more than me on here........I'll not disturb your moment of triumph though.......;p

In reply to AukWalk:

As an aside, I would be inclined to inform the horses' owner, because if a footpath goes through that field it is bound to happen again to someone and no one wants their horse to injure a dog or human. Even if they only put a sign up to warn people it might be worth doing. I only walk my dog on footpaths and bridle ways and this would be vital information for me (my dog is scared of it's own shadow).

In reply to Billhook:

Bullocks (it's true I tell you)!   

I'm here all week.

In reply to peppermill:

Ever heard of a cow market?  The term used is cattle market because they sell both sexes.   Here where I live cattle are generally referred to as "beast", young males, as 'steers & bullocks and 'females as 'heifers' 

In reply to AukWalk:

Padaidh gets on fine with most horses. But not all.

In reply to streapadair:

Lovely looking dog.