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Jacks rake

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Hey 

I'm doing jacks rake on Sunday and I heard about this grade 3 chimney at the top .  how do you get to it from the main jacks rake route does anybody have any pictures of it or anything ?  I haven't heard much information about it I just heard about it so any information about it would be helpful thank you .

 Billhook 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Have you looked/googled for images?  

 Hex a metre 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

'After a slight levelling the rake continues in much the same vein until a substantial ledge is reached at the bottom of Gwynne’s Chimney (Diff), beyond which is the finish of the classic Crescent Climb (G3+). '

https://www.ukscrambles.com/lake-district-scrambles/jacks-rake/

Looks like Crescent is the one you are looking for

In reply to Hex a metre:

The Crescent climb is below the rake. I think Gwynne’s chimney is what he is meaning; but I don’t think it would usually be considered a scramble.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/pavey_ark-342/gwynnes_chimney-5979#overview

 Will Hunt 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

If it is Gwynne's Chimney then it is absolutely definitely not a scramble. I did it with a few handicaps (non-climbing brother belaying me on a single half rope with freezing cold hands, a waterfall running down the chimney, walking boots etc) but it felt absolutely full on! Sod trying to go up it as a scramble!

In reply to Will Hunt:

Hey 

Im not on about the climb chimney I'm on about the direct way up the end tower.

https://www.cicerone.co.uk/scrambles-in-the-lake-district-south-a-sample-route-1

I read it here it says about a grade 3 route at the top im wondering how do u get to it and what's it like?

 Lankyman 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Buy the book and take it up with you

In reply to Lankyman:

I can't im going this Sunday 

Have you done the grade 3 bit ?

 Lankyman 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> I can't im going this Sunday 

Go to a shop - those things in the street that sell books and stuff

> Have you done the grade 3 bit ?

No. But I could find it from the info you already have and weigh it up when I got there

 C Witter 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

It is a tiny variation on the route. We're talking about 2 or 3m difference, up a short step. You'll see it. It's not worth writing up and you won't find more information than the description you already have.

By the by, there are much nicer walks to be had in the area and Jack's Rake is very busy these days with all kinds of numpties out searching for the latest "extreme challenge" fad - big packs of hungover "lads" or else irate guys trying to prove their virility by bullying their girlfriends up it. All this fuss over a 150m section of path.

In reply to C Witter:

I'm still interested in doing it though could you please tell me how to get to the grade 3 bit it will be much appreciated. 

And im not a walker im a scrambler and its raining on Sunday so I don't think it will be that busy. 

 C Witter 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

The rake levels briefly and passes below Gwynne’s Chimney before the path leads up a short, steep, more exposed step. The trough then deepens again and exits at an airy platform, passing a prominent ‘gun’ rock on the way. Continue walking up the gully until the path goes left onto the front of the broad buttress. There is a well-cleaned, direct way with a steep start (Grade 3), but it is easiest to continue walking with a slight descent before the track climbs again to finish walking up slabs into a shallow depression with a large cairn at the top.

[edited]

Post edited at 11:54
In reply to C Witter:

Yes I've read that bit but what I'm confused about is how will I know its the grade 3 route do you have any pictures?

 C Witter 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Yes - there's one here: https://www.cicerone.co.uk/scrambles-in-the-lake-district-south-a-sample-route-1

Follow the red line marked with a 1. Near the top, follow your nose. There are slightly harder or easier ways. Pick the way that best suits you.

I hope you have a great day out walking

 bouldery bits 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Guess who's back. 

Back again. 

CA's back. Tell a friend. 

Guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back. 

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Part of gaining skills in scrambling is learning to pick a line.  Don't do a move you think you could fall on.  Don't do a move you can't reverse.  Pick a line that looks good and enjoy it.  If its too hard then reverse and take a different line.  If it all looks too hard then reverse the route and walk round the side.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

> Part of gaining skills in scrambling is learning to pick a line.  Don't do a move you think you could fall on.  Don't do a move you can't reverse.  Pick a line that looks good and enjoy it.  If its too hard then reverse and take a different line.  If it all looks too hard then reverse the route and walk round the side.

^ This

I appreciate the OP doesn't want to end up off route, but if they need every step explaining they might be better trying something else to improve their route finding a bit more.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I am indeed 

 Lankyman 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Ridge:

Great, super! Can you find him some videos about bootlace tying? It would be a bad place to lose a boot.

 Hex a metre 08 Jul 2021
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Yep, you're right: I'm talking pish again. 

 Greenbanks 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Will Hunt:

> If it is Gwynne's Chimney then it is absolutely definitely not a scramble<

No - it can be a greasy horrorshow. I've seen a couple of people come to serious grief on there...disconcerting when half way up Rake End Wall....

 Martin Hore 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

> Part of gaining skills in scrambling is learning to pick a line.  Don't do a move you think you could fall on.  Don't do a move you can't reverse.  Pick a line that looks good and enjoy it.  If its too hard then reverse and take a different line.  If it all looks too hard then reverse the route and walk round the side.

Excellent advice. If I remember correctly the OP is a youngish teenager who does these scrambles with his dad. (Sorry if I'm wrong about that). If dad is not an experienced scrambler then both would be well advised to read this advice.

Relying on a guidebook grade and description might be OK when roped climbing above solid protection, but definitely not when scrambling unroped with serious fall potential. The best approach is always to assess the difficulty for yourself and never keep going up tricky ground just because you think you're on the route that's described in the guidebook

Martin

In reply to Lankyman:

> Great, super! Can you find him some videos about bootlace tying? It would be a bad place to lose a boot.

Do you mind? You have no idea of the mental struggle and self control involved for me not to put "Let me f****** google that for you".

 Lankyman 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Yes I've read that bit but what I'm confused about is how will I know its the grade 3 route do you have any pictures?

You'll know you're on it when your sphincter begins to twitch

 mysterion 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Yes I've read that bit but what I'm confused about is how will I know its the grade 3 route do you have any pictures?

No picture required, it's just some bulging blocks the path passes below before dipping slightly to get to the easier ending.

 Jmacquarrie 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Pavey Ark in the rain isn't really the best place to be experimenting with wandering off route if you're not sure of your line and/or abilities, too many opportunities to end up on something a lot more serious.

 mysterion 08 Jul 2021
In reply to mysterion:

> No picture required, it's just some bulging blocks the path passes below before dipping slightly to get to the easier ending.

The grade 3 is straight up, the grade 1 is along the ledges to the left then turn up to the pointy bit

https://www.summitpost.org/the-final-section-of-jacks-rake/999691/c-1000429

In reply to mysterion:

Thank you 

Finally I got there in the end this is exactly what I was looking for so do I go straight up where the guys are going in the picture 

In reply to mysterion:

youtube.com/watch?v=9Hb36_1uShA&

Is this the grade 3 bit at 4 : 26 in the video ?

Message Removed 09 Jul 2021
Reason: inappropriate content
 wercat 09 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I find some of the advice on this thread confusing and imprecise (I've been up the Rake man many times over the last 30+ years, including ascents with children suitably helmeted and roped).  I've always used the way up shown in the video linked in your post (except for one occasion when I went to see what the alternative was) but have never regarded it as particularly hard unless you really push it to its limit and take the hardest option at every choice.

However, the grade 1 overall for Jack's Rake I think is not a good grading.  The moves are not particularly hard but there is plenty of scope for getting into trouble and in particular the fact that parts can be lovely and dry but still with areas of wet rock to catch the unwary make it necessary to exercise care the whole way up.  In some ways doing it when it it's wholly wet simplifies this as you don't have to remember to watch out for slippery bits!

There is also some loose rock to be dislodged as others have said so I'd wear a helmet - many don't but they are just assuming it isn't their unlucky day.

Post edited at 09:12
 deepsoup 09 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

> Finally I got there in the end

Churlish.  You got a bit of mild ribbing, which you deserved, and some very sound advice along the way. 

Somerset swede basher's post in particular may not have been the advice you want, but it was very much the advice you need so if you weren't paying attention then you'd do well to go back, read it and think about it now.  (Especially if you're on the brink of convincing yourself that you now know where the 'correct' route is.)

 jpicksley 09 Jul 2021

Is that youtube a spoof? In fact, is this thread a spoof? I feel like I'm missing something.

 Bob Kemp 09 Jul 2021

In reply to gravy:

> Quote removed

I can understand that, but to paraphrase Martin Hore:

’Part of gaining skills in using online forums is learning to pick a thread.  Don't look at threads  you think will annoy you.  Don't look at posts by people that annoy you. Pick a thread that looks good and enjoy it. If it’s too bloody annoying  then reverse and read a different thread. If it all looks too hard then reverse and look at a different forum.’

😃

 gravy 09 Jul 2021
In reply to Bob Kemp:

I have to say I got distracted and timed out while reversing was still possible, I need an egg timer or, better still, a self locking keyboard...

Post edited at 10:25
 Lankyman 09 Jul 2021
In reply to jpicksley:

> Is that youtube a spoof? In fact, is this thread a spoof? I feel like I'm missing something.

No. It's real. It's just that we are trying to communicate something to someone who can't tell an @rse from an elbow.

 GrahamD 09 Jul 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

Being more charitable,  someone who expects a more precise, quantified and ranked description of something as vague as a scramble which basically goes somewhere up that bit of rock by whatever line you fancy taking.

In reply to GrahamD:

I remember Jack's Rake being very exposed in places, but the route-finding being very straightforward and obvious. You just follow this huge line of weakness, following the wear (keeping a little left if you want to spice it up/add to the exposure). Near the top it goes left but that's still very obvious because there's even something of a footpath, IIRC.

 GrahamD 09 Jul 2021
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I never found it that exposed, even, given that its in a trough for the most part.  Lily when she was 6 wasn't the least bit phased by any of it.

I remember some of the options at the top feeling a bit more spicy when verglassed in winter, mind.

 Offwidth 09 Jul 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

This is a website for climbers and hillwalkers and a post on a hill-talk forum. I actually think he was asking a reasonable question for the forum, on a famous scramble, in maybe a slightly odd way (as is his history here). I'm a little bit ashamed of some of the attitudes on display here. We had problems before when regulars got unreasonably annoyed long after it became obvious the poster they were annoyed with was somewhere 'on the spectrum' (and this was confirmed by people who had met them), that poster's posts also attracted very large numbers of dislikes and looked to me very much like cyber bullying and triggered me to survey all posts at the time (they were indeed the largest). Kindness costs nothing and odd behaviour often has a good explanation.

I also think it's up with the most exposed scrambles for its diffculty that I know, especially mid way where the groove opens. It's one reason why it is so good.

Post edited at 16:28
In reply to GrahamD:

> I never found it that exposed, even, given that its in a trough for the most part.  Lily when she was 6 wasn't the least bit phased by any of it.

> I remember some of the options at the top feeling a bit more spicy when verglassed in winter, mind.

What I was referring to was not staying in the trough at all but keeping right out on its L/H edge on very good rock, I recall. Not the way most people take, I suppose. I only did it that one time, because when I was doing my Lakes book I was trying to do as many different scrambles/walks as possible.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Having descended it recently sometimes you're on the rib but mostly in the trough. At no point did it feel very exposed., which I think was Wainwright's assessment too. 

 digby 10 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

I don't think the end of the Rake is at all difficult or exposed. Gwynne's chimney however, in the days when I could scramble it, is made decidedly difficult if you have a back pack on.

 John Kelly 10 Jul 2021
In reply to Bulls Crack:

I have a feeling Alfred never actually climbed the rake 

Post edited at 18:06
 wercat 10 Jul 2021
In reply to digby:

I suspect the term Thrutch was devised just for Gwynne's chimney.

 Rob Exile Ward 10 Jul 2021
In reply to John Kelly:

I suspect you're right. Many years ago a friend of mine wrote to him suggesting Sharp Edge was quite intimidating (which it is); he slapped her down quite rudely.

To the OP; Jack's Rake is a proper scramble, I have been seriously disomfited watching numpties struggling up there with their children. A fatal accident is not impossible. But you cannot expect a definitive answer to how hard it is or not, at best you might get a consensus about how it compares with other scrambles. For me - it's harder than Striding or Swirral Edges, about the same as Sharp Edge. And that's as much as I'm prepared to say.

 Offwidth 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Bulls Crack:

You're too desensitised from climbing. I did most of these scrambles before I started my obsession with climbing. It's steep for a grade 1 and incredibly low technicality for an  ascent of such a steep cliff. Mid-way it's very exposed and just as the moves back into the upper grove feel a bit precarious. 

In reply to Greenbanks:

> No - it can be a greasy horror show. I've seen a couple of people come to serious grief on there...disconcerting when half way up Rake End Wall....

There have also been a couple of people who have gone all the way to the bottom of Arcturus in recent years. The Rake is more risky than people believe.

DC

 Dave Hewitt 11 Jul 2021
In reply to John Kelly:

> I have a feeling Alfred never actually climbed the rake 

He almost certainly did do it - there's a remarkably detailed description in the relevant volume of the Pictorial Guide, not the kind of thing that could have been written/drawn without first-hand knowledge. Plus, when Wainwright definitely didn't do something - eg the top bit of Helm Crag - he was open and honest about it. The general reverse argument is perhaps more likely to be the case: Wainwright was more competent and capable that tends to be assumed, and his self-portrayal as a non-scrambling walker was overstated for comedic effect or whatever.

Re Jack's Rake itself, I'm a fairly timid scrambler but despite having got round the Skye Munros and done the Aonach Eagach a couple of times (including in the rain), I've not done the Rake and I don't at all fancy it - there's something serious-feeling and forbidding about it. One day a decade or so ago I decided I was in the right mood and set off up it with a Cumbrian pal, but quite soon - still in the early grooves - I started to feel spooked and (feeling rather silly/embarrassed) called for a retreat. We then went up Easy Gully which is almost certainly technically harder (and gets mentioned in discussions of "the hardest thing in Wainwright"), but even so I'm glad we backed off the Rake and I've had absolutely no subsequent desire to give it a go. Pretty sure it'll remain in the list of things that, despite a lifetime of climbing hills, I've not done.

Post edited at 10:43
 Rob Exile Ward 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

Take a rope and get the tick! It IS a very good scramble.

 Caralynh 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Hmm I've taken children up it. My godson when he was 9, and last month my 6yr old daughter. Both harnessed and helmeted, roped up and actually belayed over the bits that were trickier for her. 

Hungover groups with no helmets and random footwear make me more nervous. However no doubt I'll get a reply of "hey, I was hungover with no helmet......"

Not about the hangover, or the kids. It's about respecting the route and enjoying the day.

Yours... A numpty with child

 wercat 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Caralynh:

Our eldest did it when he was 3 or 4 also helmeted and toped.  It was quite funny as after the top part (the subject of this thread) I unroped him on easy ground and he said "You'll have to take care now Daddy as you're unroped" ...

 Dave Hewitt 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> Take a rope and get the tick! It IS a very good scramble.

Nah, barring some sudden change of mood/mind I can live without it. I don't often get a proper sense of unease, but when it happens I tend to go with my instincts and find something else to do.

Easy Gully was entertaining, though. My pal is a decent scrambler (he recently did the Crinkles Bad Step again at 76), but he's quite a bit shorter than me and when we got to the chockstone I reckoned I could get past it whereas he didn't think he could. We had a chat on the basis that I wasn't going to reverse it, so he'd have to go back down the gully and come back up by North Rake. This is what happened and I spent a pleasant 45 minutes sitting on the terrace waiting for him.

Anyway, I wonder how the OP's getting on - today's the day he's intending Jack's Rake.

 Rob Exile Ward 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Caralynh:

There was a specific occasion when we felt obliged to (carefully) overtake two Dads who were really bullying their unroped kids up the Rake, despite barely being  in control of themselves. 

The rescue helicopter turned up soon after we topped out, and for a while we thought we had been part of a tragedy we might have been able to avert. Thankfully it was not so.

Not all parents with children are automatically numpties, I realised it was unnecessarily pejorative so apologies for that.

 Caralynh 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

That's ok Rob, I was being tongue in cheek. I've seen similar scenes tbh. Depends on the experience of the parents I guess

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Hey CA, hope you managed to get a good scramble in.

To the folk who should know better, grow up and wind your necks in. No need for the snide comments on this thread, at all. 

In reply to John Kelly:

Really? 2 pages in Central Fells: '..a comforting parapet of rock accompanies all the steeper parts of the ascent'. Sounds like he knew it quite well.

Post edited at 13:54
 Rob Exile Ward 12 Jul 2021
In reply to Bulls Crack:

It isn't true though, is it?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

It was my impression too! 

That's all I'm prepared to share with the cantankerous old b*gger

 RJML 12 Jul 2021
In reply to Dave Hewitt:

> Anyway, I wonder how the OP's getting on - today's the day he's intending Jack's Rake.

Yeah I keep checking in to see how it went for the OP too - Looking forward to an update!

 John Ww 13 Jul 2021
In reply to RJML:

> Yeah I keep checking in to see how it went for the OP too - Looking forward to an update!

I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you...(not to cast aspersions, as I'm sure the mods will understand).

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

How did you get on at the weekend?

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

I made a better plan because i checked the weather for this week its better weather this Saturday im going to be doing byrants gully instead because I've been wanting to do that one for ages and it's a nice weekend to do it and I'm going to do jacks rake the week after 

In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Enjoy.  Bryant's looks great fun.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Thank you

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

I done it and I really enjoyed it probaly my favourite scramble 

 NIGBEE 20 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

What time did you do it, we did it on Saturday same as you. 

In reply to NIGBEE

About 5 in the morning 

 NIGBEE 20 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Well before us, we didn't start till 10.30, waited till it got proper hot! 

In reply to NIGBEE:

It was way to hot even at 5 and u got to get a parking space aha 

 Sherlock 21 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Excellent planning and execution there, CA😊.

Well done!

In reply to Sherlock:

Thank you

I think im starting to improve a bit on my mountains .

Because I done byrants gully and found it pretty easy and it's a grade 2/3 , and last year I done y garn and I got stuck at the top and that's only a grade 2 .

So I don't know if its that y garn is harder than byrants or If it is me actually getting better but I felt good about myself after I done it , and I think that's one of the good things about mountaineering is the feeling of achievement

 Sherlock 21 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Don't get too hung up on grades.

An old guy called Neil Young (ask your dad.Or your grandad) once sung "numbers add up to nothing" and he had a point.

Take care.

 greg_may_ 21 Jul 2021
In reply to Cneifion Arête:

Show people what you can do, don't tell them. Enjoy the mountains for what they, the grades are meaningless.


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