UKC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-60863725

F*cking quack drones... If this takes off (literally) then how long before some bugger straps a rocket to a St. Bernard in the Alps?

"Once operational, medics will be able to fly up a fell in 90 seconds rather than taking 30 minutes by foot." these paramedics must be pretty accomplished fell runners already if they're getting up fells in 30 minutes by foot with their bags of equipment!

I'm still a bit sceptical about the safety of using these things in low visibility and high winds as they seem to say will be the case, but then they're the experts...

Overall a pretty amazing development though, and has just made me consider training as a paramedic to have a chance of flying up mountains like a superhero :p

Would obviously be terrible if these jet packs started getting used recreationally in places like the lakes, but for saving lives seems like a great idea if they do actually work well. 

I'm sceptical that it just happened to be the 'operations director' who got selected for the jetpack training. I wonder if the selection process was along the lines of "ooh, jetpack; I fancy having a go at that"...

Does anyone know how closely these guys work with the various lakeland MRTs?

Dont forget the hour needed to drive to the bottom, which by that time a heli would have got there.

Priced at £250k + and a flight time of 5 to 10 minutes. UKC should do an expose on it.

i wonder how long it takes to put the suit on

and take it off on arrival 

without setting any thing on fire...

Yeah I'd be interested to know what the fuel is. The hills can get pretty dry in the summer...

As far as I know, it’s normally coastguard heli paramedics that work with MRTs on the high fells.

Whole story seems a bit bollocks really

I rather think the spatial-perceptual effect of seeing a paramedic near you in 3D space on Striding Edge or Sharp Edge could bring on a touch of vertigo, steady there!

Aye.  My mates aunties cleaner knows him and says he’s a big Mandalorian fan. 

Yes I did a quick check of the date when I first read it 

Seems like good value to me, looking on the Yorkshire Air ambulance Web site they say it costs 3.6 million per year per helicopter. If a rapid response reduces the number of flying hours for the helicopters they could be quids in. 

Another piece of the invisible safety net coming after mobile phones and gps etc. that serves to encourage and enable the unprepared and unskilled to venture out in to the “wild” places. Safe in the knowledge that in the event of accident, incident, fatigue , discomfort or hunger that Buzz Lightyear will wing in with a McDonalds. For myself, it degrades much of the purpose of heading out. Might as well put a road up every hill and valley

I'm not convinced. It doesn't replace the air ambulance, which has a doctor and some pretty advanced facilities onboard, and it doesn't replace the coastguard who would also turn out for evac in a serious situation, so they'd be flying anyway. So the only place I can really see for it is a faster hasty response when visibility is poor and the coastguard can't get in to the casualty. That's all well and good, but if the casualty is big sick an evacuation is still going to need to happen so the MRT is going to have to do it the old fashioned way.

No it won't replace the big yellow taxi but it will augment it.

5 minutes flying time instead of a hour plus hike to get first aid on the go and assess if its a big sick or little sick and make the call if the ambulance is needed or not. Its called progress.

It's not that long ago that ambulances were basically taxies that just got people to hospital as fast as possible rather than the technological marvels they are today. 

My point is that if there's a chance of it being big sick the helicopter gets called anyway, so where are the cost savings?

Edit: although I guess since I've been on quite a few hasty parties over the last few years there's a part of me that's feeling professionally (amateurly?) threatened.

i doubt it'll make any difference at present. The user will have to go to the hq or where ever it's stored, every team can't afford to have them. Travel to location, gear up, fly etc... a fast party first aider, medic or doc can go direct to the nearest road head and charge in, regardless of weather, fire risk on ground, they can even negotiate or find a casualty on craggy ground, tree cover, ice etc... It's a niche product, with very niche use, that is currently way too expensive. 

Let's flip that then, party being rescued has down played the situation and made out on the phone that its a little sick (I'm sure we have all done that, hell I had a heart attack, took a painkiller and went back to bed)

Iron man shoots up there, damn it's a big sick, get the air ambulance here ASAP whilst I keep them alive. 

It's an interesting development but how much real world application it has, I'm not so sure.

Firstly it would require a support team & vehicle so if you compare it to SAS SORT and their 4x4 vehicle which requires a large vehicle and team, then instantly you're adding on a considerable journey time, rigging and fueling, even before actual deployment. And that jetpack is not going to be sitting fuelled, ready to grab off a peg so how long will that process take from the secure jet fuel depo at the local hospital.

Then there's CAA certification, flight plans, NOTAMS, ATC notifications etc etc and that's not a quick process.

And if they can't get an airframe in due to weather/ground conditions, will this capability be any different? I don't know. Will it be used when there is no Air Ambulance/Coastguard availability? Can it land on without setting fire to the entire hillside? I don't know.

Then you're looking at the kit carried/flown up the hill. Roger Ramjet (now that was a "quality" cartoon) is not going to be used for your little sicks so to make it more than a bod with airwaves who's first on scene, then we're adding a defib, med bag, monitor, drugs etc which not only adds weight & reduces flight time but will also screw with the CoG and it's also right next to a "freaking JetPack" and I'm not sure that half the kit they carry up the hill would survive the journey due to the heat/vibration.

But again, I don't know.

Would I like to see this capability? Hell yes!

Wouldnt it depend on height? If this jetpack is sticking to a few metres above the ground/staying close to a cliff would it be needed?

I cant say I would fancy it in high winds since it does have the potential to become painful quick especially if just above ground level so no time to react.

Low visibility if its acting as a hovercraft on steroids I guess would work.

The "its difficult to find a landing site" seems to be more of an argument to outfit the helicopters with winches though.

Does seem to be something which would be really useful a few years down the line once its been refined. I would tend towards captain paranoia's skeptical position.

I found this on the Wikipedia page about the jetpack they're thinking of using for this:

"The jets and powerpack are affixed to the wearer with metal frames. Current maximum flying time is about 10 minutes, and the system uses six micro-gas turbines and can achieve full flight. Projected initial cost for purchase is US$250,000, although this projection is expected to come down after full production.[8] The flight pack can reach altitudes of 2000 feet, though its envisaged normal use would be traveling at only three or four metres above the ground."

Which makes it sound pretty useless to get to someone in the hills. 

I feel sorry for the medic that can't complete the return leg because the weather suddenly changes and they have to walk off with all that clobber.

Its not just 5 minutes though, this assumes its sat ready to go in the right place. In practice this would be 30-60 driving and then 5 minutes.

Google says it can do 85mph, lets just call this 60mph for simplicity. So for a 10 minute flight time would be a max range of 5 miles, or 10 with no return.

All I am saying is I dont think it's well thought out and that money could be better spent. If it's a good spend, then they should be able to justify it. These are pretty basic questions.

https://www.greatnorthairambulance.co.uk/our-work/news/gnaas-partners-renew...

It doesn't look to me like the Air Ambulance are spending any money on it.  It seems more like the manufacturer is providing it for free, and what they're getting in return is publicity, testing and credibility for the thing.  It'll be a hell of a lot easier for them to persuade people to buy the thing if they can point to some sort of track record of it actually being useful in emergency situations, even if it's not a very large proportion of that the Air Ambulance service does.

Orsted say they're all about offshore wind power, so presumably the big idea for them is that it'll be possible for a medic or a technician to take off from the deck of a boat and fly directly to the top of an offshore wind turbine.

They've been punting the thing to the Navy, too.

Yes, I see that it could allow even a rowing boat to become an aircraft carrier!

The driving time is going to be there regardless of jetting up or walking. How long does it take mountain rescue to walk 5 miles up a hill? 

I follow the inventor on Linked in, there are quite a few videos of naval tests and the level of control that a good pilot has is excellent. 

Have you seen the consumer equivalent?  A semi-submersible power unit with a Diesel engine and big pumps; sends the water up a firehouse to a rigid backpack with water jets. Power unit is towed, and operator can fly ten meters above or below sea level.

eg https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/uk/the-water-jet-pack/

But who will rescue the jet pack paramedic? 

Easy. Another jet pack paramedic

One thing to consider is that the Lake District has 10 MR teams (excluding SARDA and Comru), each covering different specific areas. Often these teams have members living in places spread across their area and hence can have someone starting up the hill soon after a call. Let’s say leaving a car park 30 mins from the initial call for arguements sake. 

Unless there is investment for multiple jet packs and the associated training/ground support etc, then it looks like there will be a significant drive time to lots of Cumbria. Let’s say they were based centrally in Ambleside - there would be around an hours drive on poor mountain roads over two mountain passes and to Wasdale head to go to a patient midway up the tourist path. I could go on with more examples. 
I just don’t see how this will be practical. 

Then there’s the question of what happens once the jet pack paramedic arrives, how do they transfer the patient to hospital? Most big sick patients best option is to be transferred to hospital ASAP where they can receive quality care.  

I think this is a good proof of concept, but clearly it's got a way to go.

Actually what you need is an ultra-light not-a-helicopter jet-thingy that can transport the casualty back down; some kind of frame and a stretcher, plus the pilot in a sling bucket seat and some medical gear.

There's a lot of people hard at work on this kind of stuff.

The last time I did a helicopter transfer (to Lundy) I was amazed at the authority that the aircraft had over the conditions, treating a 25 knot wind and associated turbulence as if it were nothing. With a lighter aircraft and stronger conditions, this is not a good place to be. However with the latest advances in drone control software, I don't see why it shouldn't be possible.

What it doesn't tell you it's us poor MRT souls that would get the job of carrying it down off the fell 

They'll self-start on liquified gas (C3/C4) then switch to Kerosene/Jet-A1 and a bit of oil once running (they're usually fuel lubricated). They'll be zero bypass engines so the exhaust blast is very hot, given the downward thrust and the low mounting of the arm engines I suspect they will pose a non-negligible fire risk during landing. Presumably it's been assessed and mitigated somehow.

I'm surprised they've found a funder for this. Looks like I might get to eat my hat this year if it turns out to be anything but a flashy white elephant.

For a number of reasons I'm still betting on this being replaced by a genuinely capable multi-rotor system within a few years.

jk

you need a paraglider in the party

I think they will turn out to be very useful in some situations where time is critical.  I could be wrong.

as for duplication of resource we already have that as there have been quite a few occasions where the local air ambulance has had to call in another helicopter for medevac as it has no winch capability

This guy, Jetpack Joyrider

https://gamehag.com/img/news/13418_jetpack-joyride-pc----review.jpg

Du-be-du-be-do, Inspector Gadget…

As others have said you would need to get that person close enough to the hill so they can then fly up. So thats a drive in itself.

It would be nice to be wrong but it does seem to be mostly a PR campaign right now with the manufacturer providing some kit so they can start selling it based on the MR/paramedics use it.

For duplication of resources seems more of an argument for air ambulance in challenging areas to be given additional funding for winch capable + winch operator instead. Or even if you are feeling cheap and flexible about their health fast rope capable and training.

Its cool gear but right now the practical application isnt obvious.

Yeah. I'm struggling to see the benefit over a SAR winch paramedic, hopefully someone that's potentially going to be working with this could explain it?

This footage and story has been doing the rounds for a good couple of years. I have lost count of how many times I've been tagged in various facebook posts (noo thankyou)

quite often it is the air ambulance in the lakes.  They made one quite well publicised landing near Striding Edge on precarious ground.    https://www.facebook.com/GNairambulance/videos/for-those-who-saw-the-stridi...

Their inability to winch has required other intervention on a number of occasions.  I wonder if it could be used with the AA where it can't land to get someone up quick from where it can land?

It might cover a lack of capability and the AA gets on scene quickly from nearby Langwathy area without a long drive

Cost? How much does a helicopter cost per hour's flying time?  Additional resource if current resources are stretched? How often do casualties have to wait for a chopper because it's busy elsewhere?

The biggest benefit for me is the speed, MR turn upand start walking up the hill. 15 minutes later whilst they are still 1 hour away from the casualty Rodger Ramjet passes them carrying a limited but useful amount of kit.

5 minutes later he is at the casualty, assessed the situation, called the air ambulance if needed, stabalised the casualty and prepped them to be carried down the hill by the rest of the guys who are still 30 minutes walk away.

A jet pack isn't a perfect solution but it's a good tool to have in the tool box if it's needed.

A much more rapid response could massively reduce the amount of flight time for the air ambulance. 

Do you know why it is that the air ambulance come out more in the lakes than the coastguard? In North Wales it's much more common to get helicopter support from the coastguard than emrts.

I'm not at all clear on how it works but Roger Ramjet is the air ambulance, if you see what I mean, so presumably doesn't get deployed unless this bit has already been done. 
(Otherwise how would he know there's a shout in the first place?)

Unless the jetpack malarky is being set up as a separate 'air ambulance' service that operates independently of the helicopter.  Which I guess they would have to do anyway in conditions where the jetpack can fly but the helicopter can't. 

All the articles I've seen just say "Ooh, jetpack!" and are very vague about the boring stuff.  Does the air ambulance service already run a fleet of cars as well, or are they going to have to procure a couple of fast cars with blue lights on (and the driver training to go with them) to get Roger Ramjet (or Jenny Jetpack) to their launch site?

I think the main benefits are PR for the manufacturers donating the kit, PR for HEMS and jollies for those trained to operate the kit, which so far appears to be just the director of operations for Great North Air Ambulance (naturally).

I am also struggling somewhat to imagine how you'd fly with the heavy and unwieldy equipment typically required to treat someone in a life threatening condition (no equipment being carried in any of the footage I've seen). Working the car solo and carrying the BLS, ALS, drugs bag, suction and Lucas up your typical flight of stairs is beyond most mere mortals, let alone flying over the fells with it.

(entirely possible I'm just jealous as the best we can hope for from the works van is that the air con works and the radio still has all it's nobs)

Sure. But it doesn't/can't replace a helicopter, be it Air Ambulance or Coastguard and I'm assuming isn't a conveying resource. 

I'm curious as to how they perform in high winds/poor visibility etc. Ie the stuff that grounds the Air Ambulance but the SAR Coastguard helicopters are able to go out in. 

Was in the brand new Merc at work today. Looovely...

Jammy bugger. We’ve got one ancient but much loved merc left in our sector. All the new trucks are sodding fiats🥲

Total agreement with Stichtplate's answer.

And we're all Mercs Puts me off moving to another ambulance service if I see they've got Peugeots or Fiats!!

Close geographically and in working relationship with the teams. The GNAAS helicopter is near Penrith and Coastguard takes about an hour to come in from Prestwick or Canaerfon. Different medical capabilities, so sometimes the winching capability of the Coastguard aircraft brings the casualty to the Air Ambulance team. No flying night provision by GNAAS. I agree with others that an Air Ambulance with winching capability (like for example Sydney HEMS) would be ideal.

As I said previously, what about circumstances where the helicopter (without winch) cannot safely get to the casualty but carries someone who can using the jetpack.  Otherwise they have to wait for the MRT to get to the casualty on foot.  In the case of the heart attack or stroke it could make a big difference

Far better informed minds than mine at the Air ambulance service have taken an interest and therefore perhaps they know of capabilities it offers where they have a gap?

I've followed callout reports for about 35 years now and all I know is that as soon as the Air ambulance started going to callouts there were cases reported of situations where a Seaking had to get the casualty because the Air ambulance attending could not.  Bear in mind that the Air ambulance, unlike a larger aircraft, can't  (nor should it as it is busy every day) be offered as a taxi service for MRT to speed them on high.

I think it's Terry (or Terri) Turbojet...

Then one of the big touted advantages, that the jetpack can sometimes fly when the helicopter cant, goes away.  If the helicopter can't fly the jetpack doesn't get to its launch site either. 

Unless Roger and Terri (I think I'll spell it with an "i", thanks CP) also have access to a fast car with blue lights on.  In which case they're a new kind of first responder and no longer an air ambulance, which is fine by me if the air ambulance service reckon it's worth it, I'm just wondering how it fits in with their organisation and other agencies.

Do air ambulance services already have a few fast cars with blue lights on anyway, or are they going to have to buy one specially for Roger/Terri?

It will likely vary by service but usually yes. Allows dispatch of various medical abilities e.g. Trauma Team when flying is not possible or inappropriate.

Whether the jetpack fits in the boot with all the standard kit is probably a different matter!

I'll not say too much as I'm pretty sure there's occasional posters that work for the Air Ambulance/SAR or similar who will be far more informed than me (No doubt groaning at this story doing the rounds on social meeja yet again and rolling their eyes every time they get tagged....;p)

I'm curious what these actually class as from a legal perspective and which flight rules they'd operate under. Airlaw in the UK is pretty complicated and restrictive but the implication is these won't have to be flown under VFR in visual meteorological conditions which would seem the most straightforward option. Presumably they're either not flying at all (legally) or operating in the curious regulatory space emergency services helicopters seem to inhabit.

Either way, I think in reality they'd be grounded by similar weather to the helicopter, especially fog and snow which makes maintaining spatial awareness very difficult. Less so maybe than in a conventional aircraft given the direct force-feedback and the ability to fly very very low maintaining some visual cues (you don't need much) but still, once you can't see the ground I suspect jetman is at very high risk of disorientation. Even navigation in low visibility will be very difficult given the workload and the speed with which paths/landscape features could be lost and then there's the simple stuff like not having a hand free to wipe eyes/goggles when flying in weather.

jk

A fundamental point you're starting to get at here: the air ambulance pilots and paramedics/doctors are different people. The pilots are ex-commercial/military with no medical role with the air ambulance, while the paramedics/doctors have no flying experience. If it's the latter who are going to be playing with the jetpack, it's not the same (highly experienced and skilled) people who are flying the helicopters.

And I wonder when the first one will crash to or from an accident?

 

The spatial awareness bit is just biology, without tools (an instrument panel and training) we just can't disambiguate the feedback we get in blind flight, we eventually get into a mess however good our training.

The point about these being flying-doctors as opposed to flown-doctors is why I think we might (even in the urban environment) eventually see very small multi-rotor solutions with much of the actual flying/stabilisation/routing devolved to the flight computer thereby requiring far less training, recency and physical condition to operate safely. Also being strapped into a padded safety cell is much more survivable when something eventually does go wrong. With a bigger payload and range (because it's more efficient than tiny turbojets and doesn't have to be man portable) somewhere compact like the Lakes the road time could be completely eliminated. There's also the possibility of automated evacuation for those patients stable and mobile enough for a single medic to load.

jk

Ha. I wonder if they've thought of that.

Still - it never rains or snows in the Lake District, does it?

Well, if you reach up to do that while flying the jetpack then you won't have a problem with rain on your googles any more...

auto scrolling film like F1 car cameras and motocross have had since 2009.

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/redraven-speedview-hands-free-wireless-roll-of...

Or a remote pilot - essentially a giant man / equipment-carrying drone.  I think the problem will be unpredictable buffety winds and poor vis in mountain terrain for any sort of single rider solution.

By the time the stability control is good enough to make it remote pilotable it's basically flyable by anyone, it's basically just 3d driving and the 3d aspect can be heavily augmented by the machine.

Extreme turbulence in a mountain environment is clearly an issue (for any system), for a human-scale multi-rotor there are physical limits on the practical max' and min' thrust each rotor can produce and the rate of change of that thrust, at least for for a fixed pitch set-up. Generally these will only produce positive thrust so would, given the vehicle's likely small form and short levers, be susceptible to extreme pitching and rolling in rotor turbulence.

For a variable pitch set-up you have near as damnit instant control, +-100% thrust available on each pylon. The cost is complexity, weight and cost but such a platform would be able to handle pretty extreme conditions.

I suspect there are several clever halfway houses to boost performance in turbulence: firstly by staying out of the worst of it through route planning. By using more but smaller lower inertia rotors that can be accelerated and decelerated extremely rapidly. Variable pitch rotors can be implemented a number of ways, not all have the cost/weight/maintenance implications of a traditional helicopter system with swashplate, some potentially will have very little. For example aero-elastic composite blades or skewed lead-lag bade root hinges allow rapid drive torque changes to vary blade pitch delivering increased control authority under transient conditions. None of this works with combustion power but comes into its own within an electronic control loop to deliver relatively simple maintenance and reduced up front cost vs a true collective pitch rotor. I've seen this demonstrated at model scale (actually there being used for cyclic control of a single +tail rotor 'fixed pitch' helicopter).

Electric (including hybrid) drive of flying things is going to deliver some pretty cool stuff.

jk