UKC

After some rumblings earlier in the year, Snowdonia national Park Authority / Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri have now officially decided to discontinue use of the names 'Snowdon' and 'Snowdonia', and use only 'Eryri' and 'Yr Wyddfa' going forwards. This will apply in all contexts except legal documents, where both names will be used. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63649930

https://snowdonia.gov.wales/paper-on-place-names-principles-approved-in-ord...

As noted on the front page of Eryri's website, 58% of Snowdonia's population speak Welsh, and "Welsh language is part of the day-to-day fabric of the area".

https://snowdonia.gov.wales/

So, in the spirit of respectful and enlightening discussion, what says UKC/H? Is this an unnecessary and confusing change for a supposedly 'National' Park that goes against the principle that Welsh and English should have equal status and ignores long historical usage, or a welcome change that reinforces cultural heritage?

For me it's Snowdon. If others think of it as Eryri, fine. Cf. Matterhorn,  Cervino etc.

Personally I loathe the insistence of having both Welsh and English names for everything. Just pick a name and stick to it.

That said, whilst few English speakers will struggle with being unable to visit Caernarvon Castle, trying to get outsiders to tell their friends they are off to Eryri for their holidays is going to be a bigger challenge. I'm not saying it's the wrong decision, but it will take decades before outsiders fully embrace the change.

Exactly what they have done in deciding to stop using the English name alongside the Welsh.

If that is the case, does it matter? This is just about what name the park authority use, anyone else can call it whatever they want. 

Always been Mount Snowdon to me! Well the DM can't be wrong.

What’s the Welsh prefix to use instead of “Mt.”?

How do you pronounce ‘Eryri' and 'Yr Wyddfa’

I’ve been to Snowdonia about a dozen times and I honestly don’t have a clue.

I believe it's 'Yr' according to the Daily Mail style guide, rendering 'Yr Yr Wyddfa'  

Moel yr Wyddfa, I believe..

SNOWDONIA and SNOWDON

Just slow it down and say it louder.

Eryri seems easier to remember as it's kind of pronounced how it looks as eh-ruh-ree maybe due to its Latin roots. Yr Wyddfa is apparently Uhr-with-tha, although I guess if you can remember that dd is th in Welsh  that gets most of the way there. 

Porthmadog is an interesting one, since it isn't returning to a traditional Welsh name, it is Welshifying an English name, Port Madocks (or Port Madoc), named after William Madocks who built the Cob. But I guess if you're moving towards a single, distinct language, you want to transliterate everything into the phonemic representation of that language.

Uhr-with-va would be more accurate. And don't forget to roll the 'R' at the beginning

I'd have thought it would be good publicity, however at peak times the honeypot areas are way way too popular already.

Maybe they could divert the same effort to trying to improve affordable homes and more jobs for the people who live there rather than in publicity politics. I know my comments conflate local government and the NPA, but the NPA is being driven politically here

So you think the amount of “effort” required to change names on a few maps and signs would be sufficient to solve local housing and employment issues? I often read about invasion of the English and holiday homes being a threat to the Welsh language as well as restricting availability of housing to locals. So is the Welsh language important to you or not?

I am good with the Welsh names. Can we can get people to pronounce BetsyCoed correctly as well.

And maybe write it correctly as well

That was quite deliberate. Should have used quotes. 

I thought it had been called Snowdon since the 9th Century or similar? 

Does anyone know the origins/etymology Snowdon and/or Yr Wyddfa.

If Snowdon is the original name, renaming seems slightly odd. 

To be fair, I usually just say 'North Wales.' 

Seen 11th century mentioned various places for the first recorded uses of Snowdon. Not seen any date for Yr Wyddfa.

I think for me it doesn't really matter what the 'original' name was (the true 'original' name is probably lost several long-forgotten dead languages ago...), but it does matter that large numbers of people recognise and use each name, and there is a range of history associated with each.

I meant that the people calling it Snowdon in the 11th Centuary would have been Welsh, not just marauding Englanders. The idea that Snowdon isn't a Welsh name seems a bit strange.

Er withva

We managed ok with the transition from Rhodesia and Salisbury to Zimbabwe and Harare. And Madras to Chennai. And Peking to Beijing. Might have taken a bit longer in some cases than others, but we managed. Don't see any reason why we shouldn't also manage a change from Snowdonia to Eryri and Snowdon to Yr Wyddfa.

I don't really see it as a question of 'managing' more as a question of why people should be asked to 'manage' and why a well known and historic name should be erased. 

I guess my perspective is that the change in the priority of the naming reflects gradually shifting practice and views in Wales about use of the Welsh language, so why not? The English names are protected in law, as are the Welsh names, I doubt either will go away or be forgotten, at least not for a very long time. 

I'm happy for it to be erased. Get our English imperialism out: Yr Wyddfa, Beinn Nibheis Chomolungma, Sagarmatha, Uluru...

We own enough.

What are you basing that on? Very little written Welsh from 11th C so I’d be surprised to hear about defences to Snowdon among it.

If it’s a Welsh name what does it mean in English?

I though the ‘change in priority’ was actually abandoning Snowdon except in legal documents - If we emphasised the Welsh - Yr Wyddfa being in big letters on signs and the Snowdon in small, then that would seem to serve the purpose?

Is Ben Nevis English Imperialism, or Scots?

Only last year there was a poll showing that even within Wales renaming it Yr Wyddfa wasn't really supported: https://nation.cymru/news/poll-majority-want-wales-highest-peak-to-be-refer...

Given both are protected by law doesn't it seem a bit weird for the national park authority to be taking it upon itself to try and erase one of those names? And this is a national park, supposed to be there for people from across the UK to visit, enjoy, and connect with, meaning I think in any case there would be an argument that it's commonly used names throughout the UK would be relevant.

It just feels like a bit forced to me, like the authority is trying to enforce change for the ends of some people with rather strong and very particular views rather than reflect any natural change in language. 

​

I think that's a really sad way to look at it... Finding imperialism and fault in the words people use or variations in pronunciation, in search of some pure original name free from all taint, which is of course a myth.

It's all probably just a good distraction for nationalist voters, so they don't look closely at how the devolved health services are functioning. 

Doesn't Yr Wyddfa mean something like the burial mound or tumulus...... And legend has it refers to a cairn out over a Welsh giant killed by the Romano-British Arthur.

Pesky post-Roman imperialism and invasion 🤣

The majority of people around where I live say they live in ‘The Peaks’, so I reckon this will be the next NP to rename😂

That'll probably be because it's not intended to reflect a 'natural change' in language, but rather to help in some small way to try to prevent one: the Welsh language is in danger of dying out.

The name hasn’t been erased, don’t be silly. You can still say “Snowdon” until your heart’s content. 

What impact is this going have on your life? You might have to know when looking at an occasional sign that Eryri is the same place you call Snowdonia, which you clearly already know so that’s no bother.

Welsh is a phonetic language so you just need to know a couple of sounds to get it right.

• "Y" is pronounced roughly "Uh"
• "dd" is pronounced as roughly "v"
• and "f" is pronounced again as roughly  "v". It's slightly more "effy" than "dd" but close enough.

The rest of the letters are the same as English.

The above as far from perfect, but you won't be far off.

I'm glad there isn't any "ll" or "ch" in the above as I had no idea how to spell those with an English tongue.

Dying out? I'd argue the welsh language is stronger than it has been for at least a few generations.

They can call it what they like, The name of a place matters to the locals. Like most visitors I'll make a hash of pronouncing most place names ether way.

In my local area I'm waiting for the glorious return of ether Cumbric or old Norse.

What's riding on saying "Snowdon"/"Snowdonia"? Nothing. On the other hand "Yr Wyddfa/Eryri" is symbolic of a nation trying to preserve its ancient language against overwhelming odds. 

If we were a truly united United Kingdom we English speakers would want to celebrate the linguistic diversity of our state instead of finding it irksome and pointless. England and United Kingdom are not the same thing. 

I said 'in danger of dying out'.  If that danger is lessening then great, but that doesn't mean it's gone.

UNESCO class Welsh as a 'vulnerable' rather than an 'endangered' language, so in much better shape than Gaelic, Irish or Manx but still not entirely out of the woods yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endangered_languages_in_Europe#United...

I agree on the first point - and wish we had a not too tub thumping history/culture of british isles part of the national curiculum that included at least a smattering of Welsh and Gaelic at a primary age.

But my point upthread about Scots was serious - lets not tar the English as the only folk with a language that has marginalised other tongues.

That's not really what I mean by erased though - it will be removed from official signs and information, with the intent that people forget about it and will stop using it.

The impact for me will be feeling marginally less welcome in the area and unsettled at the change, knowing that the name which is used and understood by so many, with its own historic links in old writing, cultural links through writing about climbing / walking, through to present day colloquial usage has been removed because those factors aren't valued or are disliked by the authority.

You're right it's not going to make a massive difference on a practical level though. 

I'm not sure I really see the link. Most English speakers won't learn Welsh, and even if they did they would probably naturally call the mountain by its Welsh name when speaking in Welsh.

I'm not sure it is dying out, it seems like the Welsh language is enjoying something of a revival to me, and hasn't really been hindered by acknowledging the linguistic diversity of the nation. It is taught in Welsh schools, legally has the same status as English, and the number of speakers is increasing rather than decreasing: https://gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-2021#:~:text...)%20and%20Torfaen%20(16.6%25).

 I have started to find North Wales has become quite an unwelcoming place in recent years, and things like this don’t help. Very few will be able to pronounce it properly which then creates more division. there are still many places in North Wales where you walk in and “the music stops” which I find very odd for somewhere that relies so heavily on tourism.

The change for Denali made sense, but this just seems like a step backwards. It’s meant to be the “United” Kingdom and yet we seem to be moving further apart. This seems like a backwards step to promote local nationalism and hold onto a dead language that creates nothing but division.

similarly the road signs in both languages is utter pointless and a waste of resources, simply to appease a few nationalists.

Yes, although I'm still struggling a bit with Port Elizabeth becoming Gqebehra!

And is it with-va or wuth-va?  

Really?  Is that like Estuary Welsh?

I always thought 'dd' was pronounced like 'th' in English? Most of my Welsh usage came from my years as a caver so something like Ogof Ffynnon Ddu, where the last bit is pronounced like 'thee'

Bechod, do you feel the same about Ayres Rock, Boadicea and Opal Fruits?  By saying you’ll feel less welcome you are implying that Anglicised versions of the names are being used for the benefit of the non-indigenous population only which kinda proves the original point, that this is just a return to the original. 

Calling Welsh a dead language might explain why you feel unwelcome. I’m surprised you think it has got worse though, I’d say the opposite is true but there will always (in any community) be those with an antipathy to outsiders. 

You mean using the English name.  "Acknowledging the linguistic diversity of the nation" is an odd way of saying that, and would involve talking about various other languages too I should think.

Again I didn't say it's dying out, I said it's in danger of dying out.  UNESCO list it as 'vulnerable', rather than 'endangered'.  (Unlike those related languages that also form part of the "linguistic diversity of the nation" - or rather I should say the region, as that includes languages still spoken in other nearby European nations.)

That doesn't mean it's out of the woods necessarily as far as its long term survival is concerned, there is always the possibility of new threats coming along, eg:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/15/second-homes-hollowin...

If it's enjoying something of a revival I think that's largely because of efforts to revive it.  As a monoglot speaker of English I'm all for that, especially as those efforts cause me no inconvenience whatsoever. 

I found it no trouble at all to get my head around more or less how to pronounce "Yr Wyddfa" and I think I'll be using that name from now on, but I'll revert to "Snowdon" if I don't think the person I'm speaking to will understand what I'm talking about.

Yes you are right. ‘dd’ is indeed pronounced like the English ‘th’.

There are two sides to this. In terms of sheer numbers of speakers, then Welsh is indeed enjoying a revival.

However, those new speakers tend to be very widespread, especially in areas like SE Wales but also often global even. That’s great to hear. The big issue, though, is that it is still very much in decline as a community language in the traditional Welsh-speaking heartlands in the North and West of Wales. The number of communities where you will just naturally hear Welsh in the street and in playgrounds just continues to decrease and there is a real fear that we will see that continue when we see the latest census results come out.

It's the same as the Germans calling Munich, München or the Barvarians calling it Minga. Different country, different language. It needn't be a meaningful talking point.

It's tricky.

Listen to this.

https://forvo.com/word/rhyd_ddu/

I'd say it's closer to a Vii than thee. But we all pronounce and hear things differently. Maybe it's somewhere between the two?

It's definitely 'th', there's no debate to had on it.

This is perhaps a question of variations in pronunciation across the Welsh-speaking population. There is a broad North-South divide, then apparently there are variations within these two.

I'm really only familiar with North Wales.

Well it's a good job that you're confident and you speak for everyone. I guess it's settled.

dd = soft th as in thee. th = hard th as in think. (As I understand it as a saison trying to learn Cymraeg.)

Not only is he confident, he's also correct 

Not as bad as people calling the Peak, the Peaks 

Maybe the music stops because they've heard your views about the pointlessness of their nation and language.

I definitely hear "thee" when I listen to that.

But enough people probably call it "Rid Do", a bit like people saying "LandUdno" is the norm in the North West (and e.g. "Pwthelli" rather than the more German sounding guttural correct version).  So I think Eryri and Yr Wyddfa will end up mangled too, though to be fair they're much closer to "say what you see" than some places are, with Eryri as written and "Eer Widfa" not being too wide of the mark.

I think anyone drawing any parallels between the naming of a hill in Wales and the legacy of British Imperialism (note I said British, not English) in Africa & Asia needs a reality check.

Not the same thing at all, really not.  

I agree with you about Scots enjoying its own mad sojourn out in the midday sun. If it weren't for Scots we'd probably still be able to enjoy Norn. However, after 1707 Scots lost the last vestiges of any prestige it had once enjoyed and was replaced by Scots English and English. Now of course the Scottish Government has recognised the importance of both Scots and Gaelic. 

By the way, Nevis, the Caribbean island, is pronounced Neevis. Hmm.

I can't expect everyone to be as interested in languages and place names as me, but it does bespeak a quite particular insularity in the British: this strident objection to things being different. 

Why not? The Welsh didn't build all those fortresses and the English/Normans didn't build them for fun. With specific reference to Welsh, it wasn't until 1993 that Welsh was allowed to be used in a Welsh court of law having been banned by Henry VIII.

I am a Welsh speaker living in Capel Curig!

That's correct

I think part of the trouble with this approach is that as well as any regional variation in Welsh, the 'th' in 'thee' is also pronounced in different ways by English speakers speaking English. 
(Here in Sheffield, funnily enough, the locals traditionally pronounce 'thee' and 'thy' with a hard 'd' sound, which is why they're sometimes called 'Dee Dahs' by the people of the neighbouring towns.)

Here's an idea - given that it's the 21st century and we're using computers lets stop trying to describe how it sounds and actually listen to it.  How's this?
youtube.com/watch?v=EFKe1Ijyyfs&

Pronounceability. The other names you mentioned are the phoneticised/anglicised versions of local names, the new old Welsh names are spelled in Welsh which has pronunciation rules completely alien to a non Welsh speaker. Write it Er Withva (or however it's pronounced) for English speakers and I imagine most would get on board within a decade or three but Yr Wyddfa has no intuitive pronunciation or way to make it into a memory for the English speaker seeing it written, it's just an unreadable shape in black and white so they'll just continue to call it Snowdon (with or without the 'mount').

jk

I used the phrase as it came up in another post, but I think 'linguistic diversity of the nation' actually captures it quite well. I mean using the English and Welsh names, which has been the case until recently. I'm not sure it would necessarily involve any other languages in this case though - I can't imagine any other languages come close to English and Welsh in terms of how many residents and visitors understand them. That may be different in certain areas though - examples that come to mind are Southall and Whitechapel stations in London where the station name is written in English and Urdu or Bengali, presumably because such a large proportion of the passengers speak those languages. 

I just don't really see removing the English name of the mountain from English signs and information as being a particularly effective way to get Welsh used as a more day to day language by residents, and it seems like a heavy handed way to do things if that is the real goal. 

I'm curious what is your personal reason for using the Welsh name? Is it an effort to improve the takeup of Welsh, or just you're worried about judgement from others? Or do you just prefer the sound? 

I have no skin in the game as no longer living in the UK and going to Wales very rarely, but I do know several people who speak Welsh

So did you repeat "hold onto a dead language" back to yourself before posting?

Maybe you should

Fair enough, maybe it is more in trouble than I thought... I guess I still don't see the marginal impact that removing the English names will have as worth the downsides when the previous compromise seemed like quote a good one to me. Seems like there would be many more effective things that could be done if they want their kids to grow up speaking Welsh... 

I can't possibly imagine why you find Wales less welcoming with such a liberal attitude

But really quite simple rules that are worth the effort of learning because Wales has lots of place names and it's right next to England.  And almost all the place names do follow those simple rules, so when you see the place name written down you can pretty much always have a reasonably confident stab at pronouncing it.

Meanwhile in England:
Alnwick?
Woolfardisworthy?
Quernmore?
Frome?
Edensor?
Rowsley?

There really is no regional variation when it comes to the dd sound. Nicholas and Mark above are 100% correct and Monty is 100% wrong!

Yr Wyddfa is a top name, like Lliwedd or Crib Goch.  What's the whole hill called?

How does that make you an expert on what a "V" sounds like to me?

I grew up on Anglesey. Lived there until I was 18. "Dd" still sounds live a "V" to me.

It's well known people hear sounds differently. There's some intetesting studies on babies if you're interested.

If you hear "Thee" then crack on. That's grand.  

Two different names for the same thing.  Which one is it ?

I'm happy to take your word for that, I was thinking more of the regional variation of the 'th' sound in English being used to describe it.  That comes to mind because I'm in Sheffield where in a (slightly old fashioned now) local accent "thee" sounds more like "dee".

Incidentally, are Welsh placenames always pronounced as they're written?  Are there any equivalents to the English place names I listed above where you still have to guess a bit how to pronounce them if you don't already know?

A really interesting thread this, and there seems to be less outright hostility to the decision than I thought there'd be. It appears the main stumbling block is the pronunciation of Welsh words in general, and mountain names in particular. I think one of the best ways to learn is to hear correct pronunciation over and over, so... 

A question to the Management Team, could UKC assist here? Now, I know the Welsh mountains pretty well and I'm a fluent, first language Welsh (North West...🤣) speaker and would be more than willing to help fellow UKCers get to grips with Welsh mountain names. But how? I know the mountains and the language really well, but am utterly cr*p with technology, computers and the like. Have a think.

Mount Glaslyn, same as Mount Ogwen.

Are you drawing a parallel between Welsh not being allowed to be spoken in court and the slave trade?

Maybe contact the WalkHighlands team? They have a little arrow thingy that you can click to hear pronunciations.

I welcome any correction from a proper Welsh speaker (I’m an incomer who only speaks a little Welsh, although I’ve made sure to at least learn the pronunciation rules), but I think so, yes. As far as I’m aware Welsh doesn’t have exceptions in pronunciation of place names or other words. If there are any I think they are rare enough to essentially not need to worry.

I think the men in metal in the big castles, terrorising the locals is more relevant. Just because it's peaceful now doesn't mean it's always been. But destroying cultures usually forms part of the imperialist playback. See,  for example, Australia and currently Ukraine. 

Imperialism manifests in more than one way.

Accirding to Google translate (and my ears) It’s pronounced Year Witha 

They can't spell Snowdonia right when it is Snowdownia wrong anyway:  https://www.alamy.com/the-trig-point-at-the-summit-of-mount-snowdon-in-wale...

* split it into 3 syllables - sgwar-nog-od and remember to roll the"r".

18s seems to be an outlier... 'Err oyithva'?

See that YouTube clip earlier, and note the version at around 18s. significantly different to the others in sound.

Easy to make mistakes in a second language...

Is it possible it might become a more welcoming place if you bothered to take the time to learn how to pronounce a couple of words in the native tongue?

I think it's more like 'ear With-va', isn't it?

Hope the editors help you out here - sounds like a great idea for a UKC feature.

One is Nepali the other Tibetan I believe. 

Both better than eve rest as I've been informed the man's name was pronounced. 

please God NO! its just SNOWDON!

Snowdon means 'snowy hill' or if you like, 'snowy mount'. so you have been calling it "Mount snowy mount" all your life!

this insistence on adding 'mount' in front of the name of any hill is just infuriating, many hills already reference 'hill', 'mount' or 'peak' in their name, there is no need to duplicate it!

More relevant?  If you’d said as relevant I’d have said you’re ridiculous and argued against it. But you said more.

I mean, are you for real? You actually think that what happened on Wales in the medieval times is more relevant than the slave trade?

Like seriously?  I’ve read some sh***y takes on here before, but this? Wow.

How about triplicate place names?

Torpenhow

Luddenden Dean

You've completely lost me. Why would the Atlantic slave trade have been more relevant to English/Welsh relations than the invasion and suppression of Wales by the English?

I didn’t say it was. I said those who draw the parallel need to take a look at themselves.

Of course the slave trade is nowt to do with England and Wales (apart from that both nations played a role in it) but it’s not more relevant with regards to restoring original names of places.

Edit: clarification

You appear to have completely lost the plot. Nobody mentioned the slave trade, presumably because, unlike the history of Wales and England, it can have no relevance to the discussion. You brought it up for no apparent reason.

Oh, there are no references to any places in Africa or Asia, and name changes there, anywhere in this thread then?  Must have imagined it. You’re right. I’ve lost it.

Joking aside, I agree with you. It has no relevance to the discussion, so why it’s legacy has been introduced to it is what I find distasteful.

There are references to name changes and there are clear parallels with using English names in Wales.

Well you introduced it!

Well if you and others want to keep drawing those parallels and can’t see why it’s wrong to do so I’m done here. I  tried. 

People drew obvious parallels with applying English names in non-English speaking areas, some with a history of suppression. Clearly relevant to the discussion. How could it possibly be wrong to do so?

You then started waffling completely irrelevantly about the slave trade.........

Probably for the best.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/snowdonia_no_more-754036?v=1#x9...
 

My original comment got some likes, and fewer dislikes. Some people got it. Just because you don’t doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant.
 

I guess you must think people just go around liking irrelevant posts?

I was about to use Moel Ysgyfarnogod as an exception to the 'rule'! And LL41 is my local accent, and I hear it said two ways... 

---

For the people having difficulty, English has two 'th's obviously. Like 'that' or 'thin', or dhat and thin for a stepping stone using very outdated phonetic spelling. If you have trouble with 'dd', think dhat dhe word 'dhe' is pronounced 'dd' in Cymraeg, and dhat 'thick' is pronounced 'th'.

And Llangollen is a good word to practice. 

Still following the same pronunciation rules though, just a different emphasis/accent. A “w” is a kinda “oo” sound in Welsh. Rolled quickly into the “y”, as it usually is, you get a “wi” as in “with” or kinda like the French “oui” sound. The person at 18s enunciated the w as a more isolated sound, but it isn’t an exception to any rule. Not comparable to English examples of words and places who’s correct (or even close) pronunciations can’t be established by following the rules. 

What about Mount Yr Wyddfa as a compromise?

Interesting.  Does that count as an exception to pronunciation rules, rather a local variant on the name (unless I’ve misunderstood?). Both versions appear to still be spelled phonetically.  And would people locally still recognise either as a correct pronunciation if I used it? 

Who had a reasonable claim to be a Welsh man, and whose act of parliament that banned Welsh in courts also allowed for some emancipation of the Welsh. 
 

and if course only a few hundred years before the banning of Welsh we had the legalisation of English. 
 

As you say, the linguistic history is fascinating and should be embraced

The question is, when there are multiple names available, which name goes on our maps and how do we choose?

And therefore fulfilling Merlin's prophecy or something...

Genuinely interested. Do you mean the use of English in the courts and government of England, rather than French? Was this due to an act of Law or was it an evolution?

Choose the name in the language of that place and put the other name in brackets. Phase out the non native names as they fall out of usage. eg Myanmar/Burma; Sri Lanka/Ceylon; Dun Laoghaire/Kingstown; etc

Myanmar/Burma is an interesting example, as both are used by the country's residents and had been used for a long time, but 'Myanmar' was a more 'formal' way of saying it, and the change was brought in by an undemocratic military junta (and for a while at least it was seen as bad form to use that name as it legitimised them). It does seem much more commonly used in most news sources now and is generally accepted, but it raises an interesting question on what 'native' means when it comes to place names, and who has authority to decide that one of them should be phased out... 

If we have a philosophical reason to use a name used by the locals regardless of what a relevant state authority says (which wouldn't necessarily apply to Snowdon given some locals called it Snowdon...), then what are your thoughts on proactively starting to call Germany 'Deutschland' and China 'Zhongguo' (or 'middle Kingdom'?), for example?

Well I would'n't correct Germans who insisted on saying Deutschland but would expect British maps to use Germany. As a walk leader abroad I've always bent over backwards to use the local words and tried to pronounce them properly. Just good manners really. Same applies to Wales.

( I don't know anything about China. )

That'd be lovely, if we could all just learn to read and pronounce the words of at least our home nation languages but it's not just Welsh, there's: English, Welsh, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic, Irish, Manx. It's not going to happen, I probably have a below average affinity for language but I'm not hugely out of the ordinary in that regard, it's just a lot to learn that is for many people not easy and for most of only very occasional use.

Yeah, English is a mess. But we use it daily.

jk

And in the specific case of Everest, where there are (at least) two names ?

I heard the last 3 pronunciations of "wy" in that video as an "oi" sound (as in "oi you!") with the first of those being most pronounced. That was how I learned it when I last studied Welsh, 45 years ago in Cardiff. I wonder if it is a South-Walian pronunciation.

Similarly, down south Dai was pronounced die, as in Die Hard, whereas a friend at Bangor uni was definitely "day".

No I don't get it. I am completely baffled.

Please explain why you brought up the slave trade when nobody else had mentioned it. What is the relevance?

And why is it wrong to draw parallels with other instances of the use of non-local names in places with a history of suppression?

That's what welsh speakers have told me.

Maybe they misheard 'thee' as vee.

Indeed, but I would say those are differences in accent rather than exceptions to the rules. You can apply the same rules and see how you might get something like either die or day, it's still a phonetic spelling. Whereas following the standard rules of English doesn't get you to a correct pronunciation of Worcestershire in any accent.

Ok this really is my last post on this as I don't have time, and don't wish to fall out with you on this and I felt that some of both of our posts crossed the line of polite and sensible debate last night.

It's my feeling that the level of suppression that was endured by the Welsh is more distant in the past, and is far less severe to the crimes against humanity, and indeed genocide, suffered by the native inhabitants of colonised nations.

Therefore to draw a comparison between the renaming of places in Wales to those in former colonised nations ignores this fact, which I find distasteful.

If you don't that's fine, I don't have a problem with you, that's just how I feel.

Ok, so you just feel it is a matter of degree? Fair enough, but I think there are obviously parallels with names used in other places. The very first thing which occurred to me when I considering this was the comparison with McKinley/Denali, Everest/Sagarmatha, Bombay/Mumbai etc; it seems to me to bring up precisely the same questions.

Why so defeatist?

Personally? Because I've tried and failed with languages on and off for decades. Some things I can do well, some I'm shit at. I've not given up but I'm realistic about my aptitude and what it would take for me to get to grips with a new language: total immersion and professional help.

On behalf of the nation? Same reason basically. It could be addressed, very gradually through shifting emphasis in education. We have for a very long time spoken the world's language, a legacy of empire and US cultural export power, it'll take a long long time for us to recognise our gradual slide into linguistic isolation and when we eventually do it won't be home nation languages being pushed in schools (assuming real-time AI translation doesn't largely supersede learning foreign languages by then, a foolish assumption IMO).

Niche languages can be reinvigorated, I've seen my home tongue dragged warm from it's grave and gradually pressed back into limited daily usage over my 40 odd years but in a world where many of us tend to flee the homelands of those languages for greater opportunity they can survive but will probably never again really thrive nor hold much interest for those outside of their immediate sphere. We started with good intentions to teach our daughter Manx for her benefit and the language's but as my wife and I don't speak it, nor does anyone locally (I'm another citizen of nowhere or whatever) and it's bloody difficult coming from English it has ultimately proved beyond us. Defeatist or realistic?

jk

We’re not talking about learning the language fluently though, not even really talking about learning any of the language at all. Just about people who holiday in North Wales taking the time to learn how to pronounce places like Yr Wyddfa, Betws Y Coed, Glyder Fawr, Llanberis.

Most people would learn some basic words and pronunciations before going on holiday outside of the UK, there’s no reason why this should suddenly become an unrealistic challenge just because the destination is in the UK.

I don't think we are, if that were the case they'd still be dual signed with phoneticized versions of the Welsh names as opposed to the English(?) names (I'm not suggesting this is a good idea!) like in Welsh Kate's examples, local names readable phonetically in English. Write them in a language with rules most don't and frankly can't reasonably be expected to know then they/we will just tend to speak them using English pronunciation rules and a little llocal flourish. It's not like the Welsh names for the places are new, we mostly know them and get them wrong already or don't use them at all. I'm sure getting rid of dual name signage will work over a generational timeframe for many of the less well known places, their English names will fade from memory (probably to be replaced with bastardised semi-English-rules versions in the anglophone part of Britain) but significant features like Snowdon will stubbornly cling to their English/empire names like Ayers rock/Uluru for a long time even after local consensus changes.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with the choice, I just don't think it'll be a very effective way of developing the Welsh language or introducing the English to it.

I don't recognise those 'most people'.

jk

Maybe I'm talking at cross purposes to you then.

I would have thought that given how much Snowdonia means to many climbers, those visiting regularly would at least have some interest in trying to learn how to say the names of the places they go. I'm willing to accept that I am probably wrong about that, although I find it a bit disappointing.

Fair enough. Maybe the stereotype of Brits shouting loudly and slowly at foreigners is more accurate than I thought. I honestly assumed most people would at least learn "s'il vous plait" and "merci" before a holiday in France, for example. Certainly, most peope I've gone on holiday with have had at least some passing interest in picking up a few words and learning the name of the place they are visiting.

I just don't think removing something from signage actually addresses the fundamental problem with Welsh place names for English speakers. I think it could be addressed but not by removing the 'English' names.

Sure it's nice to be able to say hi, beer, please and thank you* in the local tongue but when is the last time one of your mates said they were off for a week clipping bolts in Sardegna, Mallorca or Espana, or to Osterreich for a week on the slopes?

*for what it's worth I don't know how to say this in Manx let alone Welsh!

jk

Nor do I, and I highly doubt that’s what it is intended to achieve. I think it’s much more likely that they were thinking about Welsh speakers, not English speakers, when they made this decision. I just think some of the objections to it are a bit weak.

When was the last time you heard someone translate Llanberis or Betws Y Coed into English rather than try to say it in Welsh? You’d get funny looks asking anyone for directions to Chapel In The Forest or saying you’d scrambled The Red Comb (Crib Goch). You can’t really avoid Welsh place names if you visit Wales. As I said above, I don’t have any issue with people continuing to say Snowdon, I just also don’t see the issue with SNPA choosing to use the Welsh name and I agree with deepsoup that learning a bit of Welsh pronunciation has some value for anyone regularly visiting Wales.

Most tourists have a go at Mayorka nowadays rather than Madge orka which they used to say. And when they're joining in a karaoke they'll sing at Viva  Espanya rather than Viva Spain.

What gets me is that a climber wants to say Triffin and Anok Eegak even when someone puts them right. It's basically saying "it's my country not yours. If you want me to get names right, make sure you write 'em in English."

In other matters most people are very keen to get things right.

I'm not objecting, they should do what they think best.

Me too but I find languages hard, I'm far from alone in that as a middle aged Brit.

Unless I've really cocked up what I've written I'm not saying translate the Welsh names to English. I'm saying if you want English-only speakers to speak written Welsh names correctly you have to assume they won't know the Welsh pronunciation rules so must provide a phonetic (to an English speaker) equivalent. I'm provided with this in my toddler's dinosaur books (thank gods, the phonetic versions are hard enough!). Personally I don't think road signs are the place for language lessons, keep them simple and meaningful.

jk

That's a pronunciation variant. Ysgyfarnog is the Welsh name for a hare - ysgyfarnogod is the plural. In everyday usage ysgyfarnog would mutate to sgwarnog, sgwarnogod for the plural. Ease of use really.

Hi David, just seen this. Yes, both variants are used. I think Sgwarnogod is used by folk who use it the most - easier and quicker.

ps. have tried to reply to your pm re. Wern several times, but no luck. As I said, not too hot technology-wise... 

If only Arthur did not die so young!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleading_in_English_Act_1362
 

After the Normans butchered the English, they imposed the use of French in courts. This disenfranchised the English, and forced those who wanted to get on in life to learn French (and Latin)(sound familiar?).

As the Norman’s lost strength in France/needed to appear English to the English, they embraced English and then used it as the official language.

of course the ‘English’ that most people object to at a governance level, are still the Normans.

That explanation is a bit of a stretch. Could be that it's easier for them to pronounce, or a reaction to some random climber pulling them up on their pronunciation!   

Nearly 1000 years on from the Norman invasion remnants of French apparently still used in Parliamentary business.

You presumably always talk about Paree and Roma, and not Paris or Rome?

Maybe a bit of autumn bolt clipping in Hellas once in a while too?!

I didn’t mean you, sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I’m not saying people have to be perfect, just that it doesn’t seem unreasonable for someone to make the effort and try if they visit regularly. Certainly there is a gaping void of options between perfect fluency and some of the comments on here about the Welsh language being pointless, unwelcoming or divisive. 

There are a few.  Wrecsam/Wrexham and Bwcle/Buckley for example. 

But if you can manage Worcester you should be able to cope with Llangefni or Llanfair P.G.  (Nobody will blame you for not attempting its full name). 

You should probably just avoid Scottish mountains. 

(And Irish women - I have a friend by the name of Caoimhe who lived in Amlwch for a bit.  Seemed like she was showing off a bit somehow, flaunting all those vowels in front of the locals.)

I certainly would when I was there. eg Lake Garda here, Lago di Garda there; Lake Constance here, Bodensee there, Hungary here, Magyarország there; Norway here, Norge there.

What's the big deal?

Do you? When talking English?

if you're changing the name then at least reintroduce eagles..

'The name Snowdon was bestowed upon this region by the early English on account of its snowy appearance in winter; Eryri by the Britons, because in the old time it abounded with eagles, Eryri in the ancient British language signifying an eyrie or breeding-place of eagles.'

https://www.walkupsnowdon.co.uk/snowdonia-walks/george-borrows-ascent-of-sn...

How about the objection that 70% of Welsh people don’t speak Welsh?

https://gov.wales/welsh-language-data-annual-population-survey-2021

My English speaking Welsh wife is bloody sick of the language wars and the implication that she’s not proper Welsh as she’s not bilingual. 

Probably more relevant to look at the regional breakdown than nationwide percentages since that 30% isn’t evenly distributed. That link estimates that 75.5% of Gwynedd speak Welsh.

Either way, you’ll note I referred to Welsh speakers and English speakers, not English people and Welsh people. I don’t believe I’ve said anything that could be interpreted as implying anyone isn’t “proper Welsh” if they don’t speak Welsh, and I certainly don’t hold that view. If I have said anything that could be interpreted that way it was entirely unintended and I’ll happily apologise.

I certainly use the local pronunciation of place names a lot when speaking English... I talk about going to Torino, Naples and the Costiera Amalfitana for climbing, etc.

Having hung around with lots of Europeans when living in London it seemed very natural to do that.

I really don't get why so many brits can be so reluctant to do so.

Well that's unusual, I'd say. If you do fine, although I'd find someone talking about Roma etc in English rather pretentious, I think

Pretentious? Moi?

Naples?!

Can we get the conversation back to Pays de Galles, please ?

🤣... I hope it was my phone that did that, and not me... 😁

Talk about anything you like mate, good luck getting a bunch of strangers in the internet to agree on what is or isn't on topic though...

I would, did when I lived in Switzerland, France and Germany and do every two or three times a year when I go to France if I'm speaking to the locals in English. My French isn't what it was, but if I do know the local way to say a place name it seems silly not to use it.

That's a bit different. I'm thinking that people don't say for instance "Oh were off to Roma for a week" when their mate asks them if they are going on holiday. The point being it's entirely normal for places to have multiple names, and in no way disrespectful to use them.

Yes, indeed. Context is everything.

Yes. However if I had a particularly uncultivated client I would accommodate their needs.

I think you mean Torpenhow Hill

So a quadlicate? (spell check has failed me) place name

I frequently (when the weather is OK that is) go for a bike ride across Herefordshire and Shropshire.

Numerous villages there have Welsh names.

Now I'm sure virtually nobody (apart from the odd Welsh migrant) in Herefordshire or Shropshire speaks Welsh - indeed in times past such an admission might have invited being placed in the stocks 

In the same spirit as that within the north of Cymru, is it not now time that these villages were given proper English names and their Welsh-sounding ones consigned to history.

Danelaw English names, or crap bits of Englan English names?

Probably easier to move the border...

Now then, we had enough trouble with those naughty Welsh  (and indeed Scots) trying to move their border East (and South) in the past. That's why there are so many fortified farmhouses around.

Hi Myfyr, we've made a stab at some Cymraeg education in this article: 

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/welsh_cymraeg_f...

Ideally perhaps hill and crag pages could come with some basic notes on pronunciation and meaning. One to think about; it'd be a huge job (especially as we'd need to do it in Gaelic too) 

Every since I saw the thread title I've been wondering what the replacement for Snowdonia should be.

Should it be car parking*, a shopping centre*, a climbing wall*, a new town or something else?

*world's largest as the national park is more than 2000 square kilometers.