UKC

/ Annual grumble - the loss of the great outdoors

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ogreville on 17 Dec 2018

I was watching Countryfile on BBC 1 last night (yes, that's what my life has come too!!), and noticed a piece on Mountain Safety. Heather Morning from Mountaineering Scotland was on, and signed off the segment on Hillwalking and light scrambling with the now familiar "..if people want to learn more, perhaps they could think about doing a course...".

This brings me on to my annual lament on UKC on the over commercialisation of the outdoors, while still acknowledging that some things are best passed down from those more experiences.....preferably via friends, family or acquaintances, rather than billable by the hour. 

Has our culture lost something in recent years? I sometimes get the feeling that the ‘give it a try’ attitudes are disappearing, forever to be replaced by the hand holding trained professional. It’s not just climbing and mountaineering either. People these days are often shocked if anyone suggests they will do something without first completing a certified 12 week training program beforehand.

In relation to the Outdoors, is this a change in mentality driven by economics?  Is it being touted by the industry in order to channel clients toward chargeable services, or is it a sign of changes in society in general?

***FYI  - I may have mentioned this in the past, but I am still NOT working towards Development Coach, MLA, IFMGA Mountain Guide, Hill and Moorland Leader Award, Down-hill Penny Farthing Instructor award, or any other qualifications.

I am also NOT compiling a logbook of ‘Quality Mountain Days’ or looking for anyone to join me on a mock client basis with the caveat that, if they get injured, they’re on their own because I have no qualifications, certificates or public liability insurance.

felt - on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

A friend offered to lend me a hand re learning how to use a chainsaw and I said thanks, maybe I'll need it.

summo on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

I think the problem now isn't that people don't give it a go anymore with short walks with friends, building up to larger hills over time etc.. they want to post on Facebook or instagram that they've been climbing and conquered mount Snowdon in winter on their first weekend out. 

Social media is very good at presenting things positively, always with nice photos, great weather, amazing views... people celebrating how they romped up x and y, then headed for tea & cake. 

What people don't show on social media is the dire weather, the fact they shivered most of the time because of bad clothing, they had a near miss on the icy path, luckily they followed another group down when the cloud came in etc.. It's easy to get a very positive vision of the outdoors depending on your media choices.

It's safer to push the courses, lessons, lectures etc.. as those with genuine experience or skills will know what does or doesn't apply to them. People die on the hills every winter, it's almost a certainty that someone with go the distance off striding or swirral in the next 3 months, accidents happen, but many are preventable. 

Post edited at 13:41
Harry Jarvis - on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

> I was watching Countryfile on BBC 1 last night (yes, that's what my life has come too!!), and noticed a piece on Mountain Safety. Heather Morning from Mountaineering Scotland was on, and signed off the segment on Hillwalking and light scrambling with the now familiar "..if people want to learn more, perhaps they could think about doing a course...".

> This brings me on to my annual lament on UKC on the over commercialisation of the outdoors, while still acknowledging that some things are best passed down from those more experiences.....preferably via friends, family or acquaintances, rather than billable by the hour. 

> Has our culture lost something in recent years? I sometimes get the feeling that the ‘give it a try’ attitudes are disappearing, forever to be replaced by the hand holding trained professional. It’s not just climbing and mountaineering either. People these days are often shocked if anyone suggests they will do something without first completing a certified 12 week training program beforehand.

On the other hand, we regularly see reports from Mountain Rescue teams called out to ill-prepared novices who are doing just as you suggest - giving it a try. I suspect there are very many hill-goers, of all levels of experience, who are blissfully unaware that there are courses in going for a walk. 

For those who choose to extend their capabilities and who don't know like-minded folk from whom to learn the requisite skills, it would seem to me that courses might be one way to enhance one's abilities. 

ogreville on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> On the other hand, we regularly see reports from Mountain Rescue teams called out to ill-prepared novices who are doing just as you suggest - giving it a try. I suspect there are very many hill-goers, of all levels of experience, who are blissfully unaware that there are courses in going for a walk. 

I'm not suggesting that 'give it a try' means going out in winter on the Ben with shorts and T-shirt.  I mean gradual and sensible - baby steps.

As Summo says above, everyone is so keen to run before they can walk, which gets people in to trouble. I think courses sometimes give people a false sense of security, which means that they do a weekend on Winter Walking so they then have the certificate and think they are experienced enough for any terrain. 

There is no reason why a person cannot sensibly get in to mountaineering with no formal course or training, as long as they put in the hours in a gradual and safe way - start in summer with clear skies on accessible hills and work their way up over several years.

 

ScraggyGoat on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

The industry has been 'pushing' courses for decades, and thus by their own admission/design, there should be armies of course trained competent winter hill-goers happily beavering about......................... 

But where are they? Go away from the honey pots and training areas of the Cairngorms, Glencoe, the Ben, Torridon, or hills proximal to population centres and you hardly see anyone even in 'classic & prized' areas.

Fisherfields, Fannichs, Knoydart, Cuillins, Mullardoch, Affric, even the Grey Corries/Mammores, Kintail and Southern Cairngorms often only have a handful of parties or no-one at all on them, even in good weather/conditions.  

So I'm sure the courses and instructors have good intentions......but the post course take-up does anecdotally seam to be very low.

Post edited at 14:09
Neil Williams - on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

> I am also NOT compiling a logbook of ‘Quality Mountain Days’ or looking for anyone to join me on a mock client basis with the caveat that, if they get injured, they’re on their own because I have no qualifications, certificates or public liability insurance.

I know you jest, but aspirants are covered by their Mountain Training membership, aren't they?

pasbury on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Like everything else, commercial interest will attempt to monetise every experience or pleasure know to man. For them the simple pleasures of stepping out the door require expensive gear, a mobile phone, training and a social media presence to bleat about it and post ghastly selfies afterwards.

The scary thing is that more and more people are expecting to have to pay for everything now and somehow feel transgressive if they haven't!

Harry Jarvis - on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

> I'm not suggesting that 'give it a try' means going out in winter on the Ben with shorts and T-shirt.  I mean gradual and sensible - baby steps.

MRTs regularly report on ill-prepared novices at all times of the year. People get into trouble in all sorts of situations in benign conditions, and are simply going for a walk. You only need to read the regular reports on Grough.co.uk to see the evidence for this. 

> There is no reason why a person cannot sensibly get in to mountaineering with no formal course or training, as long as they put in the hours in a gradual and safe way - start in summer with clear skies on accessible hills and work their way up over several years.

You were bemoaning: 

"I sometimes get the feeling that the ‘give it a try’ attitudes are disappearing, forever to be replaced by the hand holding trained professional."

I don't believe this to be the case. Many people venture into the hills without any hand-holding from trained professionals. Many of them come back having a good day out. Some of them come back having had a bit of an epic, and a very small number don't come back at all. 

 

ogreville on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> ..…...there should be armies of course trained competent winter hill-goers happily beavering about...…

There should be, but I'm glad there aren't  

> But where are they? Go away from the honey pots and training areas of the Cairngorms, Glencoe, the Ben, Torridon, or hills proximal to population centres and you hardly see anyone even in 'classic & prized' areas.

Again, Summo's previous post sums it up. Everyone is so keep on Instagram instant gratification - do the winter skills course - post the photos, add the 'skill' to their tinder profile, then move on to SUBA diving or Base Jumping.

It is amazing how quite some mountains can be, even on weekends. Certainly not a bad thing!

 

Post edited at 15:23
Harry Jarvis - on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

> Again, Summo's previous post sums it up.

No it doesn't. It simply regurgitates one poster's personal prejudices and shoe-horns them without evidence into a lazy and meaningless proposition. 

ogreville on 17 Dec 2018
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> "I sometimes get the feeling that the ‘give it a try’ attitudes are disappearing, forever to be replaced by the hand holding trained professional."

> I don't believe this to be the case. Many people venture into the hills without any hand-holding from trained professionals. Many of them come back having a good day out. Some of them come back having had a bit of an epic, and a very small number don't come back at all. 

Of course, many people still do go out without formal 'training', but there seems to be a cultural creep towards a much more regimented mentality. I just don't like this idea of "if you haven't done the course then you shouldn't be out there". I have noticed this becoming a more commonly held opinion.

 

summo on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Sadly it would seem my point was already proven by events on Ben Nevis on Sunday. 

C Witter on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

It's tempting to point at 'young people today', and criticise them ('don't know they're born'), but I don't think it's a lack of a 'can do' attitude that's missing.

I think there are more people than ever involved in walking and climbing. The growth in courses partly comes out of the growth of this 'market' for courses. In addition, rather than feeling like they need to respectfully apprentice themselves to a more experienced climber in a club, many people are feeling confident enough to just go and try to get the skills for themselves - through training. This perhaps reveals people's increased investment in the idea of formal learning and training, but not necessarily people's lack of independence or confidence. It also speaks of a new culture of 'investing in oneself', that I think has positive and negative outcomes. It links to much broader debates about the neoliberal subject (conceived as entrepreneur of the self), but also to a culture of self-care that I see as an attempt to mentally and physically survive in a society that's had 10 years of austerity and a contracted job market.

I think people are often time-poor, these days; many people are working long hours for little pay. They have less time to invest in gradually learning and when they do get the chance to go outdoors, they want to make the most of it. When you factor in accommodation and petrol, paying for a classes might seem a 'sensible investment' for some people.

I also think that established routes for learning the ways of the outdoors - e.g. scouts, school, clubs - are waning in their influence, for a variety of reasons. With schools, because they want kids to get through exams, rather than actually learning and enjoying themselves. In the case of scouts, because many people feel uncomfortable with its 'traditions', amongst other reasons. With clubs, because they because they represent a very different mode of sociality to those emerging in an era of social media.

I don't think there's any point in condeming these trends, but there may be openings for counter-trends to them... But, unfortunately I need to stop there and go to work...

Post edited at 08:15
DaveHK - on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

>

> Has our culture lost something in recent years? 

No. Grumpy old bastards have been complaining about loss of traditional values and commercialisation in climbing almost since it started. ;)

malky_c - on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to summo:

Given the limited amount of information available about that incident, I'm not sure how you could draw any conclusions from it, or prove any points.

Shani - on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to malky_c:

> Given the limited amount of information available about that incident, I'm not sure how you could draw any conclusions from it, or prove any points.

I have the same concern. Unless he has some detailed information his post could quickly appear rather grotesque. 

Dave the Rave on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Perhaps times have changed, and the constant mountain rescue news of inadequate people for the environment constantly needing rescue, has provoked the lady’s words.

i started hillwalking and climbing without any courses, but then I was constantly outdoors anyway, climbing trees, cycling miles and engaging in scouting and army cadet activities. These taught the basics and gave some self reliance. No phone calls to be picked up or rescued etc.

I think that a lot of people that are being encouraged to venture outdoors by the outdoor media are inadequate to look after themselves nowadays. 

Ps. Courses don’t teach common sense

Post edited at 19:57
bouldery bits - on 18 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Not sure this is accurate.

MRT call outs are growing year on year - in part due to ''give it a goers" having a bad time.

 

summo on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

I know I'll get flamed again but...

Cairngorm job yesterday, young climbers out in forecast bad weather. Did a route in the norries, left bags at base of crag. Bags contained clothing and map. At top of route, couldn't get back down, couldn't find way off. Thankfully they were lucky. 

Post edited at 05:53
DaveHK - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to summo:

> Thankfully they were lucky. 

Who here hasn't been lucky especially in their learning years?

I'm not really sure what your point is. 

 

Post edited at 06:09
summo on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

That it is more than worth promoting basic skills courses, mountain safety and avalanche lectures. It is all very well saying in the old days we just went out and learnt the hard way, but it can be costly for those unfortunate and there is an alternative. 

OMR - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Coming into this a bit late, but I think the OP is being a bit harsh in his claims of commercialisation of the outdoors. Yes, there is a charge for Mountaineering Scotland's safety and skills courses, but there is no profit - this work is heavily subsidised and done with the aim of improving people's safety rather than making money. I'm not aware of the finances of other training providers, but I don't see many of them driving Rolls Royces.

I don't understand, in any case, the opposition to things being learned through courses. If I want to play the guitar I'll either get a mate to teach me, muddle away myself (the reason I can't play guitar) or just pay for some lessons. No-one's going to bat an eyelid about that, so why are outdoor pursuits any different?

Yes, most people still do go their entire lives without a mountaineering course, learning from friends, through a club or just from trying it out and watching what others do. Most people don't die on the hills either. But if someone chooses to learn through a course, where they know the information they're being given is reliable, then surely that's safer than listening to advice that can be dodgy or downright dangerous. (I have at least once - probably more than once - nearly lost my life due to listening to dodgy advice)

I confess an interest here - I work for Mountaineering Scotland - but I genuinely don't understand the opposition to courses.

DaveHK - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to summo:

> That it is more than worth promoting basic skills courses, mountain safety and avalanche lectures. It is all very well saying in the old days we just went out and learnt the hard way, but it can be costly for those unfortunate and there is an alternative. 

Can't disagree with that but why are you using recent accidents where you have (I assume) absolutely no idea about whether the victims had attended courses or not to illustrate that point?

summo on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to DaveHK:

It's just highlighting that people make mistakes. We all do, as you say we've all had near misses, but hopefully are not making large errors. Knowledge from courses is just another means of stacking the odds more in your favour.

I think many people heading out don't grasp how harsh it can be 1000m in Scotland(or the lakes and N Wales at times) in bad weather. Or even the simple things like how quickly it gets dark in December on a cloudy day. 

Yes you have to experience it to learn, but a little prior knowledge is fore armed too. 

DancingOnRock - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

What was your first mountain exprience?

I’d challenge the view that people just went out and gave it a try. My first “hill” would have been probably a days walk in the chilterns with my parents when I was 7 or 8.

After that I joined the Scouts and eventually ended up leading walks in Snowdonia in the Winter after being tested by the mountaineering team. 

In short, if people haven’t been introduced by friends, parents, youth group or scouts then it’s unlikely that they’re very likely to ‘just give it a go’, and that a formal course would really be their best option. 

ogreville on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to OMR:

Hi OMR,

Good to hear from someone from Mountaineering Scotland on this. 

I will freely admit, my points don't come from a 100% tangible place. My original post was more geared toward whether our society's way of thinking about informal learning has changing, and less about the merits of doing outdoor courses or not. I am biased by my own personal experiences of getting our into the mountains, so I put my hands up and admit that courses are not always a bad idea.

I will reiterate that I think that ".... some things are best passed down from those more experiences.....[but] preferably via friends, family or acquaintances....". But if people want to 'Give it a Try' then it should be in a safe way, which I still think is possible.

Perhaps I like the idea of things being handed down or self taught without money changing hands because it plays in to my romantic ideas of the mountains  - away from the grind, no worries about bills or mortgages etc. A different world from the office and commercial business. It's not an elegant argument, or even logical, but the feeling is still there.

 

ogreville on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> What was your first mountain experience?

> In short, if people haven’t been introduced by friends, parents, youth group or scouts then it’s unlikely that they’re very likely to ‘just give it a go’, and that a formal course would really be their best option. 

Perhaps I need to clarify what I, personally, meaning by 'give it a try'. I'm not suggesting that a complete novice head our on their own into a dangerous situation. When I say 'give it a go try' I mean taking a more DIY approach to things - this also includes learning from friends and family who may be more experienced.

To add context, my hillwalking career started on very small hills around Glasgow with friend. No experience or training. This then progressed to sunny day Corbetts, then first summer time Munros. Lots of reading of Munro books, safety books, self taught navigation etc. Many more summer munros later, starting to get in to rainy conditions or walks in cloud cover.  I then went back tot he first hills I had been up in summer, but this time in winter. Started very small, educated myself on kit and reading the weather and snow conditions. My approach took a long time, and I have backed off hundreds of walks to keep myself safe. I have also been up the same hills many, many time over for practice in different conditions. It's not for everyone. Ultimately, if someone wants to go down the course route - fine. Whatever works for them, but it's not the only option.

 

Simon Caldwell - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to bouldery bits:

> MRT call outs are growing year on year - in part due to ''give it a goers" having a bad time.

I'd have thought that the introduction of mobile phones was the main cause. In the old days someone had to reach civilisation to phone for help, so it was only the most serious cases where MRT was called out, or where people failed to return at the end of the day and worried friends called for MR.

Now they can do so from anywhere with phone reception, so it is simple to initiate a call out for relatively minor injuries. Or of course for more serious injuries that previously would have been made worse by self-evacuation.

DancingOnRock - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

But that’s what I mean. If someone hasn’t already gone out doesn’t it imply that they’re not confident and are the type of person who would want to know about courses?

There are definitely people who are just happy to walk off into the hills and explore. I met a guy in October in Snowdonia who just parked up and went for a walk. No map or compass, was just following a path to see where it went. Was his first time on a hill. 

OMR - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

Ach, I do know what you mean. Never went on a course myself, and picked it all up from my Dad and then school and mates (although there was some dodgy advice in there too!) But when I first joined Mountaineering Scotland I went with Heather Morning on one of her navigation courses, just to see how things happened, and was inspired by the way people absolutely lit up as they applied what they were told and realised that navigation wasn't some dark art but something they could do for themselves. I know - money changed hands, it lacks the romance, but I look on that course (and other courses) not as killing adventure, but as opening up opportunities for adventure. I've spoken to people since who have been on courses (not all MS) and heard how by doing that they gained the confidence to spread their wings. Some people go out and learn by themselves, some need the confidence of a course: both methods have their place.

I've lost track whether I'm agreeing with you or arguing - I think agreeing with an addendum.  

Billhook - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

The qualifications industry has grown enormously over the last 30 years or more.  This has been both industry lead and by demand from the public and others.  Guess thats also an acknowledge of the fact that there's a lot more information out there,  and a general growth of individual spending power over those years.

DancingOnRock - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Billhook:

I suspect much of the growth has been in response to legislation. 

Much of it triggered by the Lyme Bay Tragedy 25 years ago. 

wercat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I wandered out into the North Pennines (house, not the highest in the hamlet)  at 1100 ft ASL part of the way up a hill.   I must have been about 15 or so, we only had wellies, walking boots never been heard of and a borrowed leather school satchel as rucksacks were in the same category.  I did at least have cotton M65 combat jacket I'd been bought as an outdoor coat.   Perhaps not quite the magic 2000 feet but miles from home in blizzard, with a camping gaz stove and rice pud in an area of remote hillside, heather, peat and Pennine weather.

A little older I learned about proper hills pretty well on my own, bought an ice axe and crappy walking cramons and did Striding Edge in winter on my own (everyone else I was with turned back) came down Swirral and rejoined the party. Then ended up in W Ross where I went out all over the Applecross Hills in winter by the steepest ways I could manage. Read the Know the Game books on the outdoors.

I know loads of people who did stuff like this.

Post edited at 10:40
Ramblin dave - on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to wercat:

> A little older I learned about proper hills pretty well on my own, bought an ice axe and crappy walking cramons and did Striding Edge in winter on my own (everyone else I was with turned back) came down Swirral and rejoined the party. Then ended up in W Ross...

Sounds like your navigation wasn't that good, then!

DancingOnRock - on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to wercat:

I’m assuming you live/lived in the Penines. 

Had you seriously never been out for a walk in the hills before the age of 15. Not even in the summer for a picnic. 

Conversely, I live close to London. About 8 years ago I ‘lead’ a guy in his 30s up the Lamberis Path. He’d never been up a ‘mountain’ in his life. His rucksack weighed a ton and included sleeping bag, tent and emergency food and stove. He’d read all about what he needed to take in the internet. 

It was a great day out. Quite surreal, in my shorts and ‘trainers’, with this guy ready for a two day expedition. 

Fruitbat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

 About 8 years ago I ‘lead’ a guy in his 30s up the Lamberis Path. He’d never been up a ‘mountain’ in his life. His rucksack weighed a ton and included sleeping bag, tent and emergency food and stove. He’d read all about what he needed to take in the internet. 

> It was a great day out. Quite surreal, in my shorts and ‘trainers’, with this guy ready for a two day expedition. 

I presume you suggested to him, in the nicest way, that there was a good chance he wouldn't need all that gear and he'd enjoy the day with a much lighter load? 

 

DancingOnRock - on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to Fruitbat:

I did indeed. 

He seemed to view it as a big adventure that wouldn’t be the same if he didn’t carry all the brand new kit. 

wercat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Not a hill walk, unless perhaps you count wandering along the Housesteads part of Hadrian's wall.   Hillwalking was a minority activity in the 60s, woolly hat red sock folkmusic fraternity.    The first time I was really in the wilds was probably Otterburn on a school camp at 17 and the Cheviot when we found out what a "kagoule" was.

We did have a guided hillwalk through the Warcop ranges up Mickle fell when I was 15 ish, before that only what I did on the moors. I did join the university mountaineering club to go walking but didn't have any proper gear (no funds) so used DMS army boots and 1960 pattern combats.  I was the only one in the large tent in Langdale in February who did not own a sleeping bag.   I put all my clothes on and got up about 5 to walk around to get warm.  Oh joy!  On most trips to the Lakes I went off and wandered about on my own, meeting some of the others on a summit sometimes.    I didn't trust other people to navigate after the first time I walked with someone a bit older and noticed him using the white end of the needle as North.

Post edited at 13:02
Billhook - on 21 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

In respect of the Lyme Bay tragedy and the outdoors you are certainly correct - I was commenting on courses & qualifications in general.

There's been a whole industry led surge in qualifications.  Its a big money earner.

 

wercat on 21 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

My father's idea of adventure was sailing - he never took us in the hills

L Monkeysee - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

I had someone on the other week trying to tell me I needed a course to navigate in winter/ whiteout conditions ! ????

How did the guy who runs the course gain his knowledge and the guy before him and the guy before him ect ????  

wercat on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to Monkeysee:

The other thing I find annoying is the idea I need to invest enough to buy a modest space-suit to go out in the hills when far less is necessary if you are sensible with the weather.  Boots yes, clothing can definitely be cheap.  Woolly pully still good

Mark Kemball - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

How did mountaineering begin in the golden age? Well off Victorian gents paying local guides to take the up mountains. Perhaps instructional courses are just an extension of this grand tradition...

Deleted bagger - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

With you pretty much on this. I loath the commercialisation of nearly very aspect of human interaction. It's just depressing.

Never been a outdoors training course. Proud to be a rank amateur.

David Riley - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to ogreville:

> In relation to the Outdoors, is this a change in mentality driven by economics?  or is it a sign of changes in society in general?

Yes, only Parkrun bucks the trend.  Even then people need a course, and again it is provided completely free by Couch to 5k.  It's great.  Amazing it has successfully repelled Local Authority and "Governing Body" take down attempts. Far too much control these days.

L Monkeysee - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to Mark Kemball:

Most of the pioneers in mountaineering where just that ! Into the unknown .

 

DancingOnRock - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to David Riley:

You don’t really need to follow C25K in order to run 5k though. It’s not like you have to show someone your certificate before being allowed to run. 

David Riley - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

No.  I was saying even then people feel the need for a course. Not that you had to do one.

David Riley - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to DancingOnRock:

If it was me. I'd have gone to watch a parkrun. Seen that some people just walk round, and done it the next week.  But I went to help at couch to 5K and 200 people turned up to do exercises in rain and darkness to work up to that.

DancingOnRock - on 22 Dec 2018
In reply to David Riley:

So I suppose the real question being asked is are people becoming more conditioned to believe they have to be taught how to do everything. Is our society becoming hog tied by rules and expectations?

Certainly in my running club I see a lot of starters who are under the illusion that they have to be taught how to run. But I’m not sure how much of that is because we advertise for new starters who want to learn how to run. 

I’ve been running since I was 14, don’t think anyone taught me how to do it. I just decided I needed to get fitter for Rugby. 35 years later someone invents C25K, which is something I did myself 35 years ago and something our club have been doing for nearly as long. Well before the internet and millenials. 

I talk to the old boys and they say they have never seen so many middle aged adults who need their egos stoked and literally need someone to hold their hand while they cross the road. By middle aged we are talking about 35-45years old. 

Reassuringly there are people like me who just turn up and get on with it. Some of them you can see shaking their heads in wonder at the nonsense. 

Post edited at 18:06
Seocan - on 11 Jan 2019
In reply to ogreville:

NOT working towards Development Coach, MLA, IFMGA Mountain Guide, Hill and Moorland Leader Award, Down-hill Penny Farthing Instructor award, or any other qualifications.

> I am also NOT compiling a logbook of ‘Quality Mountain Days’ or looking for anyone to join me on a mock client basis with the caveat that, if they get injured, they’re on their own because I have no qualifications, certificates or public liability insurance.

But surely you're writing a book about how to walk up a hill 


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