UKC

Hi Everyone,
I'm heading up to Glencoe and Ben Nevis for the first time later this week, hoping to go on a couple of nice walks..CMD arete and then Aonach Eagach most likely.

I'm a noob here and after some advice from anyone who has been up there recently about what underfoot conditions are like at the moment? And would crampons be over-kill?

I've been reading the SAIS blog since January and from the looks of it, it's been a pretty mild winter with not that much snow being deposited in comparison to previous years. What is left is slowly thawing but is stable and pretty consolidated.. I'm going to be walking to the CMD from Glen Nevis, so am not expecting anything majorly-snowy until I'm up on the arete itself, with my biggest concern being the final trudge up the North East Buttress of Ben Nevis.. I am leaning to no crampons (or ice-ace) but have bought some (cheap) microspikes just incase.

Anyone been to the arete lately ? Or think i should be expecting worse underfoot?

thanks in advance

In reply to farfromTMC:

I don't know the current conditions but if there is a lot of hard snow after you leave the arete and start up hill to the summit then I would prefer an axe just in case I fell and started to slide. I been that way but it was well iced up in January a few years back. 

In reply to farfromTMC:

I descended it last Sunday. I had crampons and an axe as I'd been climbing. I thought they were helpful for the section descending from the summit, though not essential as the snow had softened in the sun. However, if this section was icy, as it likely will be this week with the weather getting colder, I think having crampons at the very least would be a good idea as the snow will be very firm. 

Aside from that section, i found the snow was avoidable for the rest of it. It's snowed since, though this may well have cleared in the milder weather today and over the weekend. 

In reply to jabc:

Thanks Joe79 and Pefa.

I can see that the summit temperature will be constantly below freezing for the rest of the week now, so another freeze thaw cycle should toughen things up.
I was only undecided as years ago I went on a walk over a glacier in Argentina, (during their summer) and the guide insisted we need/use/hire! crampons..but I found them excessive and cumbersome, especially as the snow was very yeilding and grippy. I remember me and a mate deliberately left the group to go up and down a steep gully/crack just to feel what the points on a crampon could really do.

You guys have helped solidify my thinking..
I'll pick up an axe, and if my spikes can't hack it..i'll cut some steps.

Cheers for your input
 

In reply to farfromTMC:

Good luck cutting steps for 300m. Your mistake was to buy the micro-spikes in the hope that they would be sufficient. The very fact that you posted on here betrays your nagging suspicion that this is the case. I commend you for at least publicising your concerns and suggest you look at the question another way.

Winter walking with axe and crampons either in the pack or actively deployed is one of the great joys of Scottish (and Lake District) mountaineering. Take this opportunity to open up that world properly and come back again and again to enjoy the best that these beautiful landscapes have to offer. Buy a 55cm walking axe and some cheap flexible crampons to go with a sufficiently stiff boot. Decathlon will sell you both axe and crampons for well under £100 all in. Or treat yourself if the budget allow. You'll never regret that decision. Save the micro-spikes for crossing icy roads.

In reply to BnB:

LOL.

I was wondering if this post would attract a passive aggressive response. BINGO!
I shouldn’t rise to it, but you did swing first BnB..

Errr..Your assumption that this purchase was a mistake is incorrect.
For £10 I got some k-brand microspikes that have already performed a secondary function of helping me aerate my garden lawn. Moss removal is such a pain ...

Yep, that much is true.
I hoped that the mild winter would continue unabated into May; that temperatures would be predominantly above freezing, well above the summit, and that the snowy ground would be sufficiently responsive to not warrant heavy ass crampons.

 Dude.. “betrays”??... this isn’t brexit. No betrayal here..I swear..

WOW. A man who states his opinion as absolute truth...

“..that this is the case.”??
 
You have just implied that it is factually correct that microspikes will be insufficient.

Have you been on the arête recently? You didn’t say..
I specifically asked, within my first post, for people who had been up there recently to give a heads up to underfoot conditions.

Clearly had I been going up last weekend, and not this week, I would have been perfectly safe with microspikes alone.

Buying the microspikes for the same price as hiring crampons on the bet that the thaw would continue was a good bet to make, EVEN IF I LOST.

:rollmyeyes:

52 y.o.- IC1 gives praise to someone he believes to be less educated..

“the question”?? ... There was more than 1 question..
I asked 4 questions.
3 about conditions and timely, local experience; 1 about equipment.

I was really hoping that the boring debate about spikes vs walking crampons would have been avoided but... no...

It’s not winter anymore.
April is the cusp of the season it seems.
Hence, I asked for timely information about what current underfoot conditions were.
It was clear in February that conditions would more-likely-than-not be milder than previous years. Hence microspikes could well have been more-than-adequate.. and even if they weren’t I could always turn around.

The fallacy that you need specialist equipment to enjoy nature is the dictat of marketeers and fools; that is to say, a falsehood from those who wish to part you of your money, and of those with more money than sense.

Oh, and I’m currently closest to Snowdonia, so spikes would make more sense, more of the time down here...

Thanks mate.
I wish you hadn’t used the word “properly”.
I was starting to like you.

My budget Brasher boots have taken me all across the world and happily accommodated the un-necessary crampons when on the ice-glacier. Irrespective of what my net worth is, I will always hesitate spending £100 on something whose intrinsic value is no more than £10, especially if it is only fear (or greed) that is directing me towards the purchase.

Or the Alps. I hear they are perfectly adequate for that task.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Had I not taken the bait, this should have been my response...

My perception of risk, my tolerance to risk, and my modes of mitigating that risk are completely different to yours, Sir.

Please refrain from imposing your view as though it is gospel.

In reply to farfromTMC:

Well I wish you the very best of luck.

In reply to farfromTMC:

Having just read your reply to BnB.  - Good luck with your micro spikes.

If your budget brasher boots have made  crampons unnecessary on glaciers have you ever wondered why hill walkers & mountaineers around the world use Crampons to climb up them?  Perhaps you'd like to ascend Everest with your spikey things?.  

No one can foresee exactly what conditions you will or won't encounter on the day. Micro spikes might be OK depending on the conditions on the particular day you go.  But crampons will definitely be OK all the time.

Its obvious you are inexperienced because as BnB pointed out, you wouldn't be asking the question.  Winter isn't a date on a calendar.  Its a matter of conditions under foot if your climbing hills or mountains.

In reply to farfromTMC:

I'll grant you that BnB's tone came across as a bit superior, possibly unnecessarily so. But he has a point. If you need to ask not just what the conditions are but also what to take it does suggest a lack of experience. But there's nothing wrong with that.

What seems a bit concerning however is you have some very firm opinions on things, which aren't evidently rooted in a wealth of experience.  Personally, when faced with a long slide on hard snow into rocks I don't mind the extra weight of some crampons. Better to have a firm footing than rely on performing an ice axe arrest when you've never / infrequently used one before (prevention better than cure etc). You may do well to think a bit more about what could happen rather than what happened that one time. If your mate went through a snowbridge on the glacier when you were descending it, would you want crampons to help stop you being pulled in too? If you slipped and were sliding down toward a large wide open crevasse would you rather you were wearing crampons in the first place? 

I don't really know much about micro spikes. I think my nan has some for walking to the newsagents when it's a bit icy. As for their suitability in the alps I guess they'd probably be quite handy after a night out in a ski resort. But personally if i was walking along an icy ridge I'd want crampons. Killian Jornet et al may well get away with very light weight adaptations but once your that experienced you can make finer grained judgements on what is or is not necessary. 

Justified fear is an excellent reason to buy things. Working out the intrinsic value of crampons / ice axe is too complicated for me, but their exchange value at a mere £100 sounds reasonable to me. 

In reply to jabc:

Are there many snowbridges and crevasses on the CMD arete? 

Proper microspikes (which are in effect flexible crampons) work perfectly well in many situations - frozen snow on the CMD arete and on the ascent from the end of the ridge to the summit would be one of those situations in which I would have been perfectly happy with microspikes, back in the days when I was capable of such things. I was certainly very happy with microspikes on many snowy mountains when I was more active than my health permits now.

I do sometimes wonder if those who criticise them have ever actually used them. There does seem to be a considerable misunderstanding of their capabilities. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Suggesting to an inexperienced winter walker that microspikes are an adequate substitute for proper crampons is appallingly bad advice. I don't know what you're thinking of when you say 'proper microspikes' but the term microspikes covers a range of things all of which are very different in how they perform from a flexible crampon.

If you're experienced in using microspikes then no doubt you can do stuff in them that others might want a crampon for but for less experienced users a crampon is a much safer choice being more secure and more predictable in use.

In reply to DaveHK:

And I wasn't doing that. It is for each individual to make their own decisions. 

In my experience, a good pair of Kahtoola microspikes are perfectly adequate in many conditions. The comments about saving microspikes for crossing the road demonstrates to me a lack of understanding of their capabilities. 

For those less experienced, I'm not sure why crampons would be better than microspikes. The CMD arete is probably not a wise place to start trying either. 

In reply to farfromTMC:

I think you should listen to BnB. It was good advice.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

It was on a thread from someone who sounds like they don't have much experience (having just bought the kit) and you said they'd work on the route they asked about. It certainly sounds like advice! 

The key words there being the first 3.

Have you read this? https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/opinions/microspikes_-_use_with_care...

In reply to farfromTMC:

It looks like it's still winter on the Ben. I'd be taking crampons. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I'd disagree with that. As a user of both microspikes (same brand as OP) and flex crampons, they are not at all similar. Spikes do OK at the easier end of the range of conditions (basically more moderate slopes)but on hard packed snow on steepish slopes...not for me. They just do not have the bite of a flex crampons. Old hard snow can be very unyielding. I've tentatively, with a very real fear, crossed old snow fields, with lethal run offs, in spikes wishing I had crampons. Wouldn't risk it again.

In reply to Flinticus:

I agree. I happily wear flexible crampons with Brasher Boots and they're fine for even the steepest winter walking (but wouldn't be happy once I got to grade I climbs). But this is with the benefit of 30 years' experience, I'm happy with the extra risks involved and also with knowing when to turn back. I wouldn't recommend bendy boots for winter use to a beginner.
Microspikes on the other hand are questionable IMO for even moderate slopes. I know that decent climbers have managed grade IV routes with them, but they are very much the exception!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Thank you all for your responses. Its nice to see I got 26 thumbs down to 3 thumbs up. Makes me feel good I'm not part of the crowd...(hence the handle)

@joe79.. Youre right mate, that's why I asked what was going on underfoot , from anyone who has actually been there recently. I am inexperienced on snow,ice hence I asked for advice...and I thank you for your gracious responses . I heed all your advice

@billhook seriously fella .did you actually read what I wrote and asked for ?

@harry Jarvis thanks.you seem to be a man after my own heart .for those who don't know, microspikes are 9.5 mm long, half the length of walking crampons, but almost twice the thickness.

@finticus perfect ,considered response ,clearly having read what I had wrote. I thank you sir.

@simon Caldwell another considered response. Hat tip in your direction.

Fwiw, I don't feel it is an embarrassment to be inexperienced as some posters seem to want use as a  beating stick.

Just for context, i'll add this. As a kid i used to break into my home, 2nd floor bathroom window, with the crux of the move being a do or die move jumping to grab the window ledge half a foot from my last resting position.

When I lived in Sheffield, I,d shimmy up drain pipes to break into my bedroom if I'd forgotten my house keys...

Being one move from pain doesn't worry me.

I much prefer  bouldering. No top roping for me. No security blankets required. Next step could be death is quite OK by me.

All I asked was what current conditions are underfoot and that I was undecided as to the nessicity of crampons.

BnB took this thread in a negative direction, and the baying mob ensued.

What a lovely site this is

In reply to farfromTMC:

Man asks question, man gets answer he doesn’t like, man loses his sh*t, calm down dude. 

You have been given sound advice to use crampons but it’s a free country, use what you want to use on the hill, spikes, crampons, hob nail boots, flip flops, go for it, it’s your ass on the line.

Or if this is a troll I mark it 0/10 for effort.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Hi Richlan,

Have you been up the cmd lately ? So that your opinion matters ... Or you just bored ?

In reply to farfromTMC:

I’m not sure that it really matters if I have or haven’t really, just put some crampons in your bag and use them if you need to, that’s what most folk would do, simple, non ?

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Unfortunately for you it does matter. This thread was started asking for timely, information . not generic bull.

I appreciate I'm an arse. But my initial questions are still valid.

You are just adding to the fluff

In reply to farfromTMC:

Sorry didn’t realise you owned the internet and decided who could and couldn’t reply based on your demands, will leave you to it, have fun.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

You did reply. I have no control over that.

I can respond.

Not surprised you've run away