UKC

/ Changed landscapes?

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pasbury on 06 Jan 2018
Is there anywhere in the U.K. where the landscape is changing/has changed?
My impression is that there isn’t apart from the usual pace of development in towns and cities.
Our rural and upland landscape is in stasis, either maintained that way because of agricultural policies and subsidies or because our conservation bodies don’t like change. My stomping grounds in Wales look the same as they did thirty years ago, same old forestry, same old farming practices.
Is there anywhere that would look dramatically different if you were to compare a thirty year old photo with the present view?
Ex Poster 666 - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Kinder Scout/Bleaklow (and other places) area has massively improved in recent years with the work that's been done.
Gone from saturated lunar landscapes ...
http://penninewayassociation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/black_hill.jpg
to this ...
http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/sites/default/files/gallery/Black-Hill-trig-2011.jpg


More_Than_a_Plod - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

The rewilding around ennerdale in the lakes is slowly but surely taking effect.
I don't have images on hand (and confess to not looking) but even over the past couple years the less plantation led forestry has become obvious.
SenzuBean - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to More_Than_a_Plod:

If you head up Iron Crag - the difference between the two sides of the fence is amazing.
Doug on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

lower slopes of Creag Meagaidh - due to a conservation agency (NCC, then SNH)
Clint86 - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to Lusk:
Amazing how nature will still come back at the moment if allowed. Not sure how long it will be able to though. I remember Black hill well when it didn't have the stone footpath. It was a relief to get onto the limestone of Yorkshire.
Post edited at 08:07
Clint86 - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Good post though. There are parts of Wales which are just crying out for better land management that I used to know well. Around the Plynlimons. It would be so good to think they could be allowed to recover from over grazing.
MFB - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Plantings on
Side Pike,
intakes below Raven Crag (must be 8 yrs old)
above thirlspot and swirls car park helyvellen
Wrynose pass 'riperian zone' , Cockly beck
all the way down hardknot
above the low wood hotel,
Mate of mine was planting all over those rolling hills east of M6 Kendal- bonkers number of saplings
gov scheme of some sort, other people involved United utilities, NT.
When this lot reaches maturity (or maybe if they reach maturity) there should be a pretty dramatic change but don't hold your breath the stuff top of Wrynose is not exactly springing up
If you want see dramatic change the tree cover at bowderstone and brimham rocks have changed massively over last 50 yrs
Bob Aitken - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:
Admittedly it partly depends what you mean by landscape, but in the past decade great swathes of Scotland have had their viewscapes altered, sometimes radically, by wind 'farms'. If you drive up the M74 to Glasgow you'll pass for miles through large tracts now substantially dominated by wind turbines of a number and size (most recent >140m) that diminish the sense of a hill landscape. Whitelees south of Glasgow, said to be Europe's largest single wind 'farm', has 215 turbines and 130km of tracks. Even if you only consider the immediate 'footprint' it has transformed about 20 square miles of moorland. And there are hundreds more, albeit a bit smaller, dispersed over much of mainland Scotland now.

(edited for typo)
Post edited at 13:02
llechwedd on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

I think that, due to fear of litigation, it's likely that, at a national level, on smaller roads, roadside trees may have less overhanging branches than they once did.
If you asked me to come up with examples, I probably could, but, just like using an episode of extreme weather to 'prove' global warming, it proves very little.

More money has been put into attracting tourists to the countryside in the last few decades, and so increased signage, visitor car parking, and cafe developments have altered the landscape.
Vehicles are often bigger than they were 30 years ago, with implications for taking up space whilst driven and/or stationary.
I suppose those individuals who view landscape in terms of ultimate/ bucketlist / must do will be more 'destination' than 'journey' orientated, and will be arguably less likley to notice the imapct of such stuff, and will imagine the landscape as something beginning the other side of the stile from the road.
pasbury on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to Lusk:

That’s an impressive improvement! Have grazing animals been removed too?
pasbury on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to MFB:

I probably planted some of them! I used to volunteer for the BTCV and we planted thousands on behalf of the National Park.
pasbury on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to llechwedd:

> I think that, due to fear of litigation, it's likely that, at a national level, on smaller roads, roadside trees may have less overhanging branches than they once did.

The recent snowfalls on the Forest of Dean have done that job for free. Presumably after afew years without significant snowfall there was much material ripe for a cull. Particularly the stuff overhanging roads.

MFB - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Forgot BTCV good effort

Billhook - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:
Road signs, county council boundary signs etc., have increased in huge numbers over the years.

The reduction of moorland grazing in many areas on the North Yorkshire Moors Nat Park, has seen a large increase in trees on what was rough grazing or moorland. There is one area where in the 70's the moorland reached right down to the road and now it naturally spread forest right down to the road.!

Since the advent of photography in the late 1800s a quick study of pioneer Whitby photographer Sutcliffe's photographs, it is immediately apparent that there are far more trees in the landscape now than when he took his pictures!
Post edited at 17:17
inboard - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Glenfeshie, Abernethy estates - native woodland expansion noticeably altering landscape as tree line gets higher. Lovely and good work by RSBP and private owner.
Denzil - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> That’s an impressive improvement! Have grazing animals been removed too?

Many of the areas have been fenced off to remove grazing animals, but limited grazing is expected to resume once the areas have recovered sufficiently.
dale1968 on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:
Greylake RSPB was a carrot field now wetlands..
petegunn on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:
As mentioned by MFB if you Google photos of The Bowderstone and the Borrowdale valley, there are many photos with no trees at all.
Also other areas were water has been dammed I.e. Thirlmere and the lost village of Mardale Green at Haweswater etc.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Mardale+Green+lost+village&prmd=imnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=old+thirlmere+valley&prmd=misvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUK...
Post edited at 18:14
Doug on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to inboard:

Parts of Glenfeshie are due to NCC/SNH. And we shouldn't forget work by the John Muir Trust & Trees for Life elsewhere in Scotland, nor more local initiatives such as Carrifran in the borders.
pasbury on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to Dave Perry:

I think Cheddar Gorge underwent a similar transformation from treeless to overgrown, and now, back again.
wintertree - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

The reforesting east of loch bad an sgalaig.
wintertree - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to llechwedd:

> I think that, due to fear of litigation, it's likely that, at a national level, on smaller roads, roadside trees may have less overhanging branches than they once did.

Also due to more phone cables at roadsides than 100 years ago.

Conversely railway edges often have more trees now they don’t have to be removed to prevent embers setting them on fire in the summer. This is why the Victorians didn’t suffer from leaves on the track so much...
Post edited at 22:07
baron - on 06 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:
The re-establishment of the Welsh Highland Railway must stand as one of the most significant changes of land use even if it hasn't had a dramatic effect on much of the landscape.
Also the removal of almost all signs of the coal mining industry has completely altered the areas Where mining took place
Post edited at 23:21
MFB - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to Dave Perry:

Plus one on signage - form of littering
inboard - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to Doug:
Yep - and some great plans for Coigach-Assynt area too, through partnership between SWT, JMT, local community and private landowners.
Clint86 - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to inboard:

Tree planting?
Grumpy Old Man - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

When I started climbing in The Peak (1959) there were no silver birch trees below Birchen Edge or Gardom's Edge and few trees below Chatsworth Edge and all of the routes on these edges were visible from the Baslow - Sheffield/Chesterfield roads. You could also see all the routes on Rivilin Edge from the A57. The crags are now all hidden from below by trees. The same can be said of Yarncliffe Edge and Padly Quarry around Grindleford, and many other places as well. It is quite frightening to know that I am older than any of these trees!
inboard - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to Clint86:

Yep. And lots of it!
More_Than_a_Plod - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to pasbury:

Northern Forest: Plan to plant 'ribbon of woodland' across England - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42591494

Interestingly in the news today!!
Brass Nipples on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to Lusk:
> (In reply to pasbury)
>
> Kinder Scout/Bleaklow (and other places) area has massively improved in recent years with the work that's been done.
> Gone from saturated lunar landscapes ...
> http://penninewayassociation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/black_hill.jpg
> to this ...
> http://www.moorsforthefuture.org.uk/sites/default/files/gallery/Black-Hill-trig-2011.jpg

Wow I only remember the pre path when it was just a quagmire with the trig point as sanctuary. Often with lost footwear left on top.

Clint86 - on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to inboard:

Great, thanks for the info.
pasbury on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to inboard:

What mix of tree’s and how does anyone know? Are any areas to be left to determine their own future?
pasbury on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to More_Than_a_Plod:

> Northern Forest: Plan to plant 'ribbon of woodland' across England - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42591494

> Interestingly in the news today!!

This is an interesting proposal but when I see the first picture in the piece I am a little saddened. Neatly arranged trees in what appears to be a regular grid, all protected by little posts and protective rabbit thingies. What a boring and sickly woodland that will turn into!
SouthernSteve on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to More_Than_a_Plod:


> Northern Forest: Plan to plant 'ribbon of woodland' across England - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42591494

We live in the National Forest Area. There has been a massive infilling of grassy bits between older trees with new bits of woods appearing all over. A change in the countryside which has been good. Other areas where there are rocky outcrops (Charnwood) have been left looking raw. I hope the new 'Northern Forest' has a similar good effect.
elsewhere on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to Lusk:
> Kinder Scout/Bleaklow (and other places) area has massively improved in recent years with the work that's been done.

> Gone from saturated lunar landscapes ...


> to this ...


That is a fantastic achievement - well done moorsforthefuture!
Post edited at 18:59
pasbury on 07 Jan 2018
In reply to SouthernSteve:

I commented about the image in the BBC article but have had another look and realised it’s a stock photo probably bearing no relation to what’s happening in practice.
However my point remains, the vast majority of our island yearns to be a forest, of course it can’t all be because we have to live in it too and grow things. But if we want to allow trees to return all we have to do is look the other way and in ten years they’ll be there, making a wood for us.
As Grumpy Old Man says the gritstone edges will be covered in birch scrub if we leave them alone, a succession of others will follow, we can’t even predict what they’ll be.

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