UKC

/ Hare Coursing in the Peak

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alx on 13 Jan 2018

Keep your eyes peeled people!

A wildlife photography course was interrupted by three people hare coursing.  It happened yesterday somewhere in the High Peak area.

https://www.facebook.com/francis.taylor.129?hc_ref=ARRJ3rvg6yPwSjVHb7BxXXfhnvBF7eA60yRaadhuarRiYLu5KEd_ttpZCz2NlACwfvk

Seems bonkers behaviour.

rackandruin - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:That page youve linked has been removed

 

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to rackandruin:

Thanks Rack!

Try this link to Tesni Ward’s twitter post instead to see the photos of the incident.

https://twitter.com/taznii/status/951879133327437825

 

Dell on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

What exactly is the point of hare coursing? 

 

Due to not being a prick I don't really understand it. 

mrphilipoldham - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

I stumbled across a hare carcass at Stanage Popular the other day, no idea how it got there obviously but it did seem out of place.

Dax H - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

Unfortunately they have probably already hooked their caravan to the back of a transit pick up and moved on to another area. 

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Dell:

> What exactly is the point of hare coursing? 

> Due to not being a prick I don't really understand it. 

People like this are so useless and inadequate they have to use dogs to 'achieve' something for them. They themselves would probably struggle to count to ten but they pat each other on the back when their dogs kill something. The dogs are probably treated pretty badly as well. I'd like to rub the hares carcass all over them and then let some hungry dogs loose on them.

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

The dogs are normally stolen and taught to chase and kill things that run away from them.  Normally these dogs are known as they tend to get involved in harming smaller dogs whilst out walking.

If twitter or Facebook is anything to go by those dogs and owners are frequently seen around Glossop which gives me little comfort that the place the coursing occured was the venue was most likely in the Snake Pass where I have a group of hares I photograph.

 

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

Spoke too soon.

Derbyshire Police have just reported the three men where coursing at the exact site I have been using for my hare photography for the last 6 weeks 

https://twitter.com/derbyshirerct/status/951905204496150531

 

Moley on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> People like this are so useless and inadequate they have to use dogs to 'achieve' something for them. They themselves would probably struggle to count to ten but they pat each other on the back when their dogs kill something. The dogs are probably treated pretty badly as well. I'd like to rub the hares carcass all over them and then let some hungry dogs loose on them.

A bit like all those useless, inadequate, illiterate Saudi Arabian Sheikhs that get their kicks from training their badly treated falcons to kill birds, and that despicable Mongolian girl with her eagle hunting foxes (you could go and watch the film and chuck things at the screen). I could go on.

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

Ah yeah. Saudi Arabia , considering the way they treat low paid workers I wouldn't expect them to have much sympathy for a few wild animals. Mongolian hunter, totally different scenario.Hunting foxes for fur in sustainable way in a land where you can't pop to the shopping centre for a new coat is hardly setting dogs on hares for fun. You could go on but like most arguments for bloodsports you'll be posting shite.

Moley on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

I was arguing against your ignorant, intolerant stereotyping of people you know nothing about. Jumping to conclusions about their intelligence, inadequacies and treatment of their own animals. Just because you don't approve of what they do, but I doubt you will change so I'll leave it there.

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

Moley has made his position pretty clear on this sort of thing before. Please don't lead him on or we'll have to hear some shite about 'normal people down the pub and the warm banter about lamping' and all that crap and it will inevitably lead to someone then saying some other toss like 'all antis are townys who don't understand the country' and that's the point where I get upset. As someone who grew up in the country and doesn't partake in hunting of any kind it really gets under my skin when I hear this, as quite often it's rhetoric being pedalled by someone who is an incomer themselves. Grrrr. Rant over. And breath. Hare coursing is a scumbags game, end of.

girlymonkey - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

Why do they even want the hares? What do they do with them?

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

To preempt you jumping down my throat, please don't. I've lived and worked the whole of my life with people who shoot, hunt etc and we agree to disagree. Doesn't mean I hate anyone, and vice versa. In reality everyone accepts each other. The people who cause divisions are the people who haven't experienced it directly. It is what it is. However, hare coursing is acutely different, and is a blight. Most people who shoot or hunt would agree. Fact.

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

> I was arguing against your ignorant, intolerant stereotyping of people you know nothing about. Jumping to conclusions about their intelligence, inadequacies and treatment of their own animals. Just because you don't approve of what they do, but I doubt you will change so I'll leave it there.

I know they kill hares for fun. Ignorant ? No. Intolerant ? Too right, intolerant of illegal morons like these who you seem to give some sort of strange misguided credit to. 

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

> Why do they even want the hares? What do they do with them?

fun

 

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

Hi Moley

I can’t speak for the cultural or legal differences in Saudi or Mongolia which would give some context behind why they do it.

In the UK hunting with dogs (inc hare coursing) has be banned, so whatever people want to call it, it’s illegal by current standards.

In this case two particular hares we have been working with have scrapes pretty much right where those men in those photo’s are. There are at least 10-15 individual hares territories around that area.

 

Unless you are heather or grass, they are fairly benign animals with a quirky character.

https://flic.kr/p/234PYzx

https://flic.kr/p/23aQh5C

https://flic.kr/p/DyFN32

https://flic.kr/p/DJMaMV

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

Ace photos!

PeakDJ on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

Such great photos of truly beautiful creatures.  Hare coursing is both comtemptible and illegal.  Hope the perpetrators are caught. 

I used to love watching the hares up on the Kinder plateau and around the Derwent edges.  

I should also say that those pics of the owl on the wire in the same flickr gallery are truly awesome!

Post edited at 19:34
arch - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

 

> In the UK hunting with dogs (inc hare coursing) has be banned, so whatever people want to call it, it’s illegal by current standards.

 

 

Not true. It's still legal to catch Rabbits and Rats.

 

.....And where is your evidence that Lurchers harm smaller dogs whilst out walking ??

Tom V - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Dell:

I feel the same about boxing but more strongly, since human lives are at stake.

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom V:

How about climbing?

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom V:

Choice is the large factor here.

Pursued by a bear - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

As long as you aren't using dogs to get up a route, you're fine. 

T.

alx on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

You are allowed up to two dogs I believe to flush out rabbits and rats. So I stand corrected!

Regarding lurches biting smaller dogs, this is was given the context of an animal trained to chase and kill small animals not your average pet lurcher (which have lovely temperaments).

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

:-D

artif on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to girlymonkey:

Nothing, they do it for money. Bets are made on which dog gets the Hare first.

arch - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

> You are allowed up to two dogs I believe to flush out rabbits and rats. So I stand corrected!

Still not true. You really need to get the facts right. Read paragraph 3 and 4.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/37/schedule/1

> Regarding lurches biting smaller dogs, this is was given the context of an animal trained to chase and kill small animals not your average pet lurcher (which have lovely temperaments).

 

My pair are trained for legal quarry, neither of them chase small dogs.

 

 

Moley on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

My gripe on this thread is with the stereotyping and belittling of the alleged offenders, whom nobody knows anything about. It's all there in the posts and the kind of generalisations and crap Donald Trump spouts. 

 

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

Just out of interest, and no intention to offend... 'Fun' or work?

toad - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley: whilst I’m also uncomfortable about some of the generalisations, fundamentally, if you are hare coursing, you are breaking the law, and my experience of hare coursing is that there is violence, ( semi) organised crime and illegal gambling running hand in hand with it. It isn’t a crime of wronged countryfolk, or at least not in the eastern flatlands.

 

girlymonkey - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to artif:

So they don't even use the meat or fur? I had no idea this was even a thing!! Awful

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

Do you stand up for everyone moley? Hare coursing is rural crime, full stop. People have strong opinions on things like this, as I'm sure that you have strong opinions on certain things. I've read your comments on other topics, and whilst we may not agree on everything I don't think you are wholly unreasonable, however on the matter of illegal hare coursing I really don't mind what people want to call the perpetrators, because chances are, to some degree, they are right.

EarlyBird - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

I think there is some understandable anger at their apparent actions. Hopefully Derbyshire Police will find these individuals and due process can establish whether or not they are actually scumbags. 

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to EarlyBird:

I'd love to think that there is a small chance that they are not (scumbags), unfortunately, as toad pointed out above, the chances are that sadly, they are. Smashing through private gates, threats with weapons, including shotguns, all actions witnessed directly or by family and friends over the years. They generally are not pleasant people. Again, as toad stated, this is not an issue even remotely simerlar to the discussion on shooting the other month, it is an entirely different beast all together.

arch - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

Both. I am asked by Farmers to remove Rabbits from their land and I enjoy watching my dogs work. I use as much of the rabbit meat as possible for my self and friends, any left over, gets minced up and fed to the dogs. Or frozen for later.

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

Fair enough. Surely then, being someone who understands and works with farmers, you can see that hare coursing is so far from working dogs, that it is more akin to dog fighting, badger baiting or cock fighting. I understand your umbrage is with the misunderstanding of your dogs, but I think anyone with an interest in the countryside should be clear that hare coursing is no longer acceptable.

EarlyBird - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

I personally have no doubts as to what kind of people they are. I'm also sure that some of the apologists on this thread have a pretty good idea as well.

 

* Removed a "pretty"

Post edited at 22:44
yesbutnobutyesbut - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

> My gripe on this thread is with the stereotyping and belittling of the alleged offenders, whom nobody knows anything about. It's all there in the posts and the kind of generalisations and crap Donald Trump spouts. 

It's nothing like the generalisations Trump makes. People are rightly calling out some scummy lowlifes who are both causing cruelty and breaking the law. 

arch - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

There is never any common ground on threads like this, just opposite s. The Hare is the true test of a running dog, some people like to test their dogs. Since the hunting ban, its now illegal, but it still goes on. I'd like to keep my two dogs, so I'm only interested in Rabbits.

 

One thing picked up on on the Twitter link is the absence of any real evidence of coursing. Five pictures, four pictures of men with dogs on leads, one with a dog with a Hare in its mouth. Is that enough for a prosecution ??

 

Anyway, its late, I'm typing on a kindle in bed and I find that difficult. I'll rejoin the debate tomorrow if its still active.

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

You do realise that witness statements are used in prosecutions! Not many prosecutions of any type actually have photos of the crime.

toad - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

The Hare is the true test of a running dog, some people like to test their dogs. 

 

I’m sorry. Hare Coursing has only ever really been about gambling. Latterly illegal gambling, which is why it’s so attractive to the criminal community. It’s only about “testing” your dogs in the same way that Cheltenham is about “testing” your horse. 

 

thommi - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

Common ground has to be developed, it is never a given. You talk reasonably and are polite, but I do disagree with you. People may like to 'test' their dogs, but in areas such as where the photos were taken, it would be classified as poaching, even if the hares are not then taken. Basc set out very clear guidance on what is acceptable and what is not. Based on what was reported to have been witnessed, that is what is occurring. I'd love to think it was just three nice chaps, out walking their dogs, but for a moment let down your defences over country sports and accept that what appears to have been happening (in reality we all now it has). You must have come across them in your course of life, and you must admit, they're arseholes. Unless of course you're the kind to just turn a blind eye, after all, generally, they can be very intimidating. However when they've driven through a gate and all over a field and the cost of the damage is yours, maybe you'd feel differently. My experience is that people certainly do. Anyhow, good night.

 

Post edited at 23:22
Tom V - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

If we choose to settle our differences in a pub car park and one of us kills the other, he will go to prison, choice and consent being completely irrelevant.

Tom V - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Dax H:

Most of the travellers I know are much more interested in the noble art of pummeling  other humans senseless, with or without gloves, than chasing animals across a hillside. Perhaps they, too, appreciate the concept of "consent".

thommi - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom V:

Sorry Tom, I'm lost a little here. Could you explain? I was referring to choice and consent in relation to the hare and the dog. As you said, if we 'choose' to settle our differences. Of course I do understand that in some cases, traveller lads may be forced into fighting against their consent, but when I wrote my earlier reply it wasn't clear that illegal, bare knuckle boxing was what you meant, I just read boxing.

thommi - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Tom V:

Ok, I think I may understand slightly more clearly. Are you referring to consequence of actions and lack of prosecution?

Moley on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

It's not a matter of standing up for everyone, more not liking people jumping to conclusions and stereotyping. Even if it is emotive subject.

I am very well aware of problems of illegal hare coursing and the crimes committed, also that the "travelling community" have a lot of history there. Early in the thread the finger was pointed at them - with no evidence whatsoever of it being travellers - i happen to think that is wrong but hey-ho this is UKC.

I don't know anyone who owns or works longdogs but have met a few years ago, none of whom fit the descriptions given here. Arch who owns and works longdogs, understands the reasons why they do it, centuries of breeding have gone into producing the perfect dog and some people will always want to test them (individually or against each other) on their ultimate quarry, the hare. This is illegal, it is a crime, it is a big rural problem for landowners, but chucking Ill informed accusations and assumptions about does nobody any favours.

Trangia on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> I'd like to rub the hares carcass all over them and then let some hungry dogs loose on them.

I know you are angry, and I understand why, but just stop for a moment and consider what you have written. Even contemplating such behaviour lowers you to their level.

Would you really condone the hunting of human beings?

 

toad - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to alx: some historical context. Altcar is not a million miles from where some of my family used to live.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_Cup

 

thommi - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Moley:

Good morning moley. Your response is thoughtful and reasoned. In reply I must apologize for a couple of comments within my first response, I too do not like stereotypes and jumping to conclusions, which I think, was my emotion when I wrote it. Whilst I agree that not all people who work sight hounds fit the descriptions levelled within the thread, I do think that in this case it is most certainly illegal coursing which has occurred, which I will stand by my comments on. As I said, I think we need to separate these issues, and as per my reply to arch, anyone who is involved in country sports, as they are known, would be best to be clear that illegal coursing is not ok. Having re-read through the comments this morning, and as per trangias reply above, some of the things said have been abhorrent. However, I will stand by my comments. I still think it's a scumbags game and that the people involved are arseholes. I think the same of people involved in badger baiting, people trafficking and white collar fraud. I do not wish harm on anyone though, to the same extent as I do wish harm on any animal*.

*I have previously wished harm on midgies.

Post edited at 09:34
Moley on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

Thanks for the balanced response, as it should be. 

Jim Lancs on 14 Jan 2018

"Centuries of breeding have gone into producing the perfect dog" - this also applies to Deer Hounds, Otter Hounds, Beagles, etc but doesn't mean that their owners should have unfettered opportunity to see thier dogs in action. Perhaps now we can concentrate the breeding of dogs to produce happy, well balanced, healthy, defect free companions that don't need to charge about killings things.

The Royal Navy spent hundreds of years perfecting the Cat o'Nine Tails and the skills needed to flog a man to "within an inch of his life" I'm sure even that was a skill that some admired. But it rightly belongs in history together with Hare Coursing. 

Tom V - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to thommi:

Yes, in the sense that killing someone in a boxing contest will probably not result in a prosecution, whereas killing someone in a bareknuckle bout probably will; yet the purpose of the activity and the motivation of the participants are exactly the same; it is just managed differently.

Moley on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> . Perhaps now we can concentrate the breeding of dogs to produce happy, well balanced, healthy, defect free companions that don't need to charge about killings things.

Can we do the same with ****** cats please

No need to reply anyone - think that subject has been covered 100 times on here already!

 

Bob Kemp - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to arch:

> .....And where is your evidence that Lurchers harm smaller dogs whilst out walking ??

Lurcher attacks are quite often reported, and it's something that lurcher owners worry about too, if the relevant forums are anything to go by. But it's not just lurchers - greyhounds too, and other 'sighthounds'.

yesbutnobutyesbut - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Trangia:

 

> I know you are angry, and I understand why, but just stop for a moment and consider what you have written. Even contemplating such behaviour lowers you to their level.

> Would you really condone the hunting of human beings?

 

The police are allowed to let dogs off the lead to catch criminals , does that lower the police to their  level ?

 

Bob Kemp - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> The police are allowed to let dogs off the lead to catch criminals , does that lower the police to their  level ?

Not quite the same thing is it? I don't think the police use dogs to hunt criminals to death do they? Unless things are different in your neck of the woods?

mrphilipoldham - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

It’d make for a much more entertaining series of ‘Send in the dogs’ on the telly box if they did.

Tom V - on 14 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

They are also allowed to shoot you to death if the situation warrants it.


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