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Head Torches for night hill running?

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 Mike_Gannon 19 Sep 2021

Hi,

I have two head torches, Petzl Tika and Petzl Tikina.

They're great for night time hikes and scrambles in the past, but I've recently started running/plodding out on the hills and as the nights get darker I've started using my head torch and find that my depth perception is really impaired. I'm not sure why, so any science behind it is also welcome, but can anyone recommend a good head torch for running / fell running.

Thanks

 tjhare1 19 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

There's obviously a tradeoff between brightness and battery life and that starts to bite quite acutely when you get up close to four-figure lumens*. You're then faced with accepting one of: (a) lower power (undesirable, I'd say you want >500 lumens), (b) lower battery life (you'll struggle to get >3hours at close to 1000lm out of something with the battery up front) or (c) heavier weight (to the extent that an "all in one" torch with everything on the front of your head becomes imbalanced, leading to having the battery out back instead).

Another consideration is the sort of battery it uses. Rechargeable? Proprietary vs generic? The latter is quite a distinction I think: it means new batteries are cheap and plentiful (e.g. my current torch runs on a rechargable 18650 e-cig battery that slots in the front), solving the compromise - I just take 2 batteries if I want to run at 1000 lumens for more than 2-3 hours, and when they're old and knackered it costs me a fiver to go down the local and get a new one.

Some good options:

  • The Petzl Swift RL is going down well with a lot of folk. Proprietary battery, but other than that a really nice torch. Run time at max is the standard 2-3hours, but it has a "reactive" mode that adjusts automatically, giving extended battery life at reasonable brightnesses.
  • Some good looking options available from Fenix, both of the battery-at-the-back variety and the more familiar all-up-front sort.
  • And if you want something really niche then look at Stoots. I've loved my Stoots torch - does everything the best lightweight torches do just as well, but has the benefit of not using proprietary batteries.

* I appreciate lumens isn't everything, but as a broad proxy for usefulness here it'll do.

 girlymonkey 19 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

I have a Fenix which I really like. You can switch easily between the flood and spot lights. Very bright. It has the front to back strap over the top of the head which I like for the stability of the light. Battery pack is at the back so stays well balanced. 

I have never had any problems with depth perception, not sure whether that is due to the torch being good or my eyes coping ok with it.

 Sam W 19 Sep 2021
In reply to girlymonkey:

Another vote for Fenix. I got an HM50R and am pleased with it.  There's a mini review from me in this thread,

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/running/head_torches-729549

 Ridge 19 Sep 2021
In reply to tjhare1:

I think a lot depends on the lens and focussing as to how useful a head torch is. Alpkit quark has a claimed 580 lumens, Led Lenser H7.2R a claimed 250.

I run on hills and fells with one or the other of the above, and I find both are plenty bright enough. I couldn't imagine running with anything brighter, there would be (for me anyway) far too much reflected glare and shadows.

I do carry a small Fenix PD35 hand torch (960 lumen) as a back up and in case I need something brighter for route finding or it gets foggy.

Both the alpkit and Lenser have proprietary rechargeable batteries that can be swapped with AAA/AA if necessary (although I carry a spare rechargeable for the alpkit). The Fenix has an 18650.

 George Ormerod 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

I ran a night race with a Petzl Nao and I also had a Fenix lashed up as a waist light on a tape belt.  The waist light was the real difference, it was amazing, letting me pick out the relief of the trail. I didn’t fall over once, which was unusual because I usually fall over in daylight. 

 ablackett 20 Sep 2021
In reply to George Ormerod:

If it’s foggy or particularly rocky I hold my Petzl Nao in my hand, that way you see the shadow of the rocks before you trip up over them.

 Connor Nunns 20 Sep 2021
In reply to ablackett:

This is what I discovered biking at night, you need the light below your eyes to create shadows.

 SouthernSteve 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

A vote for the Petzl Nao+. The flashing red light at the back needs turning off if you are running with a partner behind you (done by the phone so not a quick thing). You can pocket the battery on a longer lead if its really cold and its a little lighter like that. We also have an older Petzl in the house (like a Swift, but older) and this is not too bad. My wife fell over using a small Tikka and ended up off running for 6 months a decade or so ago and we have used the bigger lights since. I don't like the tunnel feeling that isn't helpful for navigation of the brighter light, but it does seen safe. The waist light seems like a good idea.

In reply to Mike_Gannon:

There's a distinct chance you've seen it already, but I reviewed the SWIFT RL last year: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/camping/lighting/petzl_swift_rl_-_one_headt...

I've continued to use it beyond the review and expect it'll be getting a whole load of use now that the nights are drawing in again. I tend to bounce between the SWIFT RL and the NAO+, as I have the luxury of having both; however, were I to only have one it'd be a tough choice to make and one that would ultimately depend upon what I was doing.

If it was running, and not just running but running longer distances (i.e. that require more time out), I'd undoubtedly go for the NAO+. It's greater burn time just makes it better, plus I actually think it feels better 'on the head' than the SWIFT, with a more even weighting between front and back. 

If it was anything other than running (i.e. walking, climbing, mountaineering) or running shorter distances then I think the SWIFT RL would be the one I'd favour, as it's just that little bit lighter and more compact.

Hope that's of help!

OP Mike_Gannon 20 Sep 2021
In reply to George Ormerod:

Yes this is something I noticed too. I was much happier running with the torch in my hand, Which made me think that having the torch on my head meant that there was no shadow for good depth perception.

> I ran a night race with a Petzl Nao and I also had a Fenix lashed up as a waist light on a tape belt.  The waist light was the real difference, it was amazing, letting me pick out the relief of the trail. I didn’t fall over once, which was unusual because I usually fall over in daylight. 

 Garethza 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

I ran all my winter training runs last season with the Alpkit Qark (£32.99) which provided more than enough light and has a rechargeable battery pack which is pretty good value. 

OP Mike_Gannon 20 Sep 2021
In reply to ablackett:

Yes I found holding my torches in my hand improved how quickly I could analyze what was infront of me on rocky trails. Maybe this is the answer.

OP Mike_Gannon 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

Thanks for all the comments. Listening to your views really helped. I wasn't sure if there were head torches / bulbs that output different light frequencies to give a more natural feel.

Some have suggested that just holding the torch in your hand gives better perspective and that's what I resorted to doing once trails got too rocky.

Thanks

 timjones 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

Have you tried running on the  red light setting.

I find this far better unless I am running with the million lumens of white light brigade.

 timjones 20 Sep 2021
In reply to tjhare1:

> * I appreciate lumens isn't everything, but as a broad proxy for usefulness here it'll do.

I would suggest that lumens indicate very little.  I do all my night running with either a Petzl Tikka or Aktic and the only time I ever use anything above their lowest setting is when the battery is very low or other runners start flashing too much light about.

 CaelanB 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

An alternative suggestion might be the Petzl Iko. 

Conventional headtorches always give me two problems. First, I always feel the light itself bouncing up and down on my forehead which is kind of annoying. Second, I find elasticated headbands give me a headache.

The Iko doesn't have either of the problems. Personally, I reckon it to be the best headtorch for running I've ever used. It's certainly plenty bright enough! Its only drawback is its battery life, which stands at 3 hours which is not exactly the longest going. Though for 99% of my running it's been sufficient. The times it's not been sufficient I've just taken along some spare batteries to replace the rechargable battery pack when it runs out of charge.

 tjhare1 20 Sep 2021
In reply to timjones:

You must have good eyes - that’s great. But the OP has already stated that they are struggling with a Tikka…

I once ran with a Tikka (well, a tikka plus) as coming into fell running from walking and climbing, it was all I had. I did one winter with it and found that trying to run at pace on properly rough ground was asking for trouble. All the more so if with others with torches. If that’s not the case for you, then brill, but I’d say that given what’s been expressed by the OP that they are probably after something a bit brighter.

Perhaps there is one useful thing for the OP to consider though, which is your point RE running with others. As you note, it’s a struggle with others unless you’ve got something about as bright as those around you.

As for lumens indicating very little, I think if you lined up a load of popular torches in lumen order and asked people which they found best to run with, there would pretty unequivocally be significant correlation. That to me is sufficient to warrant saying “a broad proxy for usefulness”. Not a perfect proxy, but pretty certainly more than “very little”.

Post edited at 11:39
 timjones 20 Sep 2021
In reply to tjhare1:

> You must have good eyes - that’s great. But the OP has already stated that they are struggling with a Tikka…

> I once ran with a Tikka (well, a tikka plus) as coming into fell running from walking and climbing, it was all I had. I did one winter with it and found that trying to run at pace on properly rough ground was asking for trouble. All the more so if with others with torches. If that’s not the case for you, then brill, but I’d say that given what’s been expressed by the OP that they are probably after something a bit brighter.

> Perhaps there is one useful thing for the OP to consider though, which is your point RE running with others. As you note, it’s a struggle with others unless you’ve got something about as bright as those around you.

> As for lumens indicating very little, I think if you lined up a load of popular torches in lumen order and asked people which they found best to run with, there would pretty unequivocally be significant correlation. That to me is sufficient to warrant saying “a broad proxy for usefulness”. Not a perfect proxy, but pretty certainly more than “very little”.

It depends on the cause of the problem, for me it is down to having deep, dark shadows that hide the detail in unlit areas rather than a gentler "more diffuse" light source.  If this is the issue then more lumens will only exacerbate the problem.

The headlight arms race to carry ever more lumens only makes it worse ;(

 tjhare1 20 Sep 2021
In reply to timjones:

I’d certainly agree that were there a moratorium to not go above X lumens then we’d all be fine with lower-powered torches.

But, when somebody you run with turns up with a big Hope rig or equivalent, then you’re scuppered. For that reason, I’d probably prefer to be in the race that out!

The reason I say interesting is that I, and others above, find shadows helpful for picking out relief. I guess you’d argue that you get sufficient shadow relief anyway - fair enough!

 timjones 20 Sep 2021
In reply to tjhare1:

> I’d certainly agree that were there a moratorium to not go above X lumens then we’d all be fine with lower-powered torches.

> But, when somebody you run with turns up with a big Hope rig or equivalent, then you’re scuppered. For that reason, I’d probably prefer to be in the race that out!

> The reason I say interesting is that I, and others above, find shadows helpful for picking out relief. I guess you’d argue that you get sufficient shadow relief anyway - fair enough!

Shadows are certainly vital to pick out relief but they are a problem if they are so dark that you can't tell whether a hole is 2 inches or 2 feet deep.

In reply to tjhare1:

Those Stoots torches look great,  can you recommend any uk supplier? I've only found the French homepage.  Thanks

And for something completely different,  my mate had once of these in his van.  Felt bright enough to run with and only £9.99!!

https://www.screwfix.com/p/luceco-rechargeable-led-headtorch-green-150lm/76...

 tjhare1 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Sandstone Stickman:

No UK supplier, which is a real shame. But they do post!

 CantClimbTom 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

Petzl are brilliant, pioneers of so many things, I have used many of their torches from original Zoom and Duo to Actiks and Pixas etc, However I'm sad to say that the driver and emitter  (electronic bits and LED) are a bit behind the times compared to people like Fenix. You can get directly equivalent torches that have the same batteries but are brighter and run longer than Petzl ones. I advise not buying Petzl if you ever need to replace them  Sorry Petzl!!

I second the idea that head torches in general the light source is close to the eyes and doesn't give the same depth perception as lights that are not close to your eyes, such as a hand torch or bike light

 summo 20 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

Lumonite compass r, high power(1000+) if you really need to find something, medium, or low power(200lumen) with 8hrs endurance. 5 year guarantee. Just over £100.

As said above, early petzls were great, but they've been left behind now. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

> Petzl are brilliant, pioneers of so many things, I have used many of their torches from original Zoom and Duo to Actiks and Pixas etc, However I'm sad to say that the driver and emitter  (electronic bits and LED) are a bit behind the times compared to people like Fenix. You can get directly equivalent torches that have the same batteries but are brighter and run longer than Petzl ones. I advise not buying Petzl if you ever need to replace them  Sorry Petzl!!

Out of interest, which would you say that the direct equivalents are to the likes of the SWIFT and NAO+? I'm genuinely curious to give them a go, but the issue I'm having is getting the figures to look as good as you're making them out to be, because - at least to me - the way they're presented seems a bit misleading.

Take the HM65R for example. It has a 1400 lumen max output with both beams combined, yet nowhere within the blurb is their combined burn time mentioned - they simply highlight 'spotlight' and 'floodlight' as two distinct categories, never quoting the burn time when turned on together. Individually they all look pretty impressive, but given that I'd envisage using them combined throughout 99% of the running I do, that's figure which would be the most important. Am I missing something?

On a similar note, Petzl's own figures aren't any better. Because the nature of reactive lighting Petzl can only give a very broad approximation of how long it might last. Taking the SWIFT RL as an example, it's quoted to last anywhere between 2 and 30 hours on max power, which is - I think it's fair to say - absolutely meaningless (albeit in a very different way to the Fenix figures). 

*if I'm missing something obvious, please accept my apologies - I've just got back from two weeks off and my brain is currently on charge, with limited battery life and even fewer lumens...

 ewanjp 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

Running needs shadows in my experience. Decathlon do a really good chest mounted running torches, my wife does a lot of off road runs and she has one as does the rest of her running club. Cheap too!

 probablylost 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

How does the swift beam compare with the NAO+? I really like the NAO beam for running as while it's got decent range it's still quite floody close up. However I've also got the reactik and dislike it for running as the spot beam overwhelms the flood one at close range. The flood beam is more like a narrow strip than a wide pool like on the NAO. Just wondering if they improved that on the swift.

In reply to probablylost:

> How does the swift beam compare with the NAO+? I really like the NAO beam for running as while it's got decent range it's still quite floody close up. However I've also got the reactik and dislike it for running as the spot beam overwhelms the flood one at close range. The flood beam is more like a narrow strip than a wide pool like on the NAO. Just wondering if they improved that on the swift.

The SWIFT is much more like the NAO+. I remember using them side by side quite a bit back when I wrote the review and whilst there is a slight difference, it's pretty subtle.

Your point also highlights the issue I was outlining within my post regarding the Fenix figures, as I - much like you - want both spotlight and floodlight. Having favourable burn time figures for each independently is fine, but it's meaningless if you're looking to use them both together throughout the vast majority of your running.


 probablylost 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

That's really useful, thanks Rob

 Inhambane 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Mike_Gannon:

no mentions for lupine head torches?  they have at the same time a wide beam and a focused beam, you can choose the kelvins (warm or white) and they seem bomb proof 

 CantClimbTom 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Out of interest, which would you say that the direct equivalents are to the likes of the SWIFT and NAO+? I'm genuinely curious to give them a go,...

That's a good point, those 2 are probably petzl's best current torches but a good distance, and not too closely equivalent to other brands

Post edited at 19:35
 girlymonkey 21 Sep 2021
In reply to Inhambane:

> no mentions for lupine head torches?  they have at the same time a wide beam and a focused beam, you can choose the kelvins (warm or white) and they seem bomb proof 

I had never heard of them so went and did a Google search. First result that came up was for one which costs £791.99!! They had better be bomb proof for that!

OP Mike_Gannon 23 Sep 2021
In reply to timjones:

I'll give it a try. 

OP Mike_Gannon 23 Sep 2021
In reply to tjhare1:

Ha ha, yes. I've nearly decked a mate once who had one of these ultra bright head torches and kept forgetting to dip his head torch when we stopped for map reading and blinding everyone in the group on a night hike once


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