UKC

/ Lymes disease warning

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john morrissey - on 06 Jun 2018

Just be aware of the symptoms guys. Check after each walk.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-44369721

In reply to john morrissey:

Really nasty! This UKH article might be helpful if anyone needs further info... How to Avoid Ticks and Lyme disease:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/how_to_avoid_ticks_and_lyme_disease-8437

 

olddirtydoggy - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

A friend of mine last week in Wales might have got it on Tremadog. It seems cases are becoming more frequent.

john morrissey - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

If this turns out to be a case of lymes disease I think the BMC need to know. Implications for climbers at Tremadog

toad - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Interested to know what the host for these ticks. There aren't that many deer in NE Wales (so I'm told).

Dave Williams - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to toad:

They're smaller sheep ticks, so in Wales you'll find them on vegetation in all areas where there may be sheep, plus areas where there are none, the latter due to ticks not being very clever but seemingly highly opportunistic - as in any cat, dog or human will do. You don't need to be near bracken or grass either. One once crawled onto my hand off a rock in Craig Cwm Silyn's descent gully.

toad - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to Dave Williams:

Ta

olddirtydoggy - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

My mate did 2 routes on Tremadog on the 26th of May and one of 2 bites flared up. He got straight onto antibiotics and for now seems ok. After only 6 hours the tick was removed and the bite formed an outer ring. The bite was under his shirt on the side of his torso.

I'm aware Scotland is worse but with all the sheep I would have thought Wales too would have its fair share.

If I give the BMC a call and tell them, do you think they might be able to successfully rebrand it?

Post edited at 21:09
wintertree - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> After only 6 hours the tick was removed and the bite formed an outer ring.

I had a characteristic ring around a mystery bite last year - the nurse put me on the antibiotics for Lyme although the searing pain and then the blister that formed the next day convinced me it was a horsefly.  

Still Mrs Wintertree nagged me in to going to the docs.  She wouldn’t let me pick the scab off either.  The scab turned out to actually be leather like dead skin from the blister, and it prevented the healing process from working until I bit it off 3 weeks later to reveal a right mess underneath.  

What I think happened is that the clag bite allowed an opportunistic fungal infection in, causing the ring.  But I was quite slow to blister up, leaving it looking like Lymes for a while.

I learnt not to take the Lyme disease antibiotic pills dry before lying down to sleep.  Major burning oesophagus pain.  Always drink with your pills!  My wife learnt to leave me alone to pick scans etc.

Edit: with a tick there it was very sensible of your friend to go to the docs - I hope they have no lasting consequences.  My rambling post was really just to say that I think secondary staph and/or fungal infenctions can also make a ring around a bite, but better safe than sorry!

 

Post edited at 21:20
Red Rover - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Sounds like Lymes is maybe the most dangerous part of being a climber in the UK these days. Hopefully the vaccine passes the trials and becomes available (if the news is true)

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/lyme-disease-vaccine-valneva-clinical-trial-2016-12

Deleted bagger - on 06 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Picked two up today on the North Harris Grahams. I always check myself after a days outing. I guess thus far I've been lucky.

oldie - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Dave Williams:

My son got one at his school in West London.

Simon Caldwell - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Deleted bagger:

Spoke to several people after the LAMM on Harris at the weekend who's had upwards of 10 or 20 of them. I was lucky and only found 1 - this was also the first time I've coated my legs in Smidge each morning - could have been coincidence of course but I'll be continuing the experiment...

Tall Clare - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Thanks for the prompt. My husband found a tiny weeny tick on the dog's eyebrow after a weekend of charging round in bracken, and removed it with a tick card, but this, and the thread about ticks on babies, has prompted me to order a couple of pairs of tick tweezers so we have them to hand.

purplemonkeyelephant - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Millions of them down in our SE London parkland. Constantly checking myself

slinky wizard - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Really bad in the lakes it’s definitely getting worse!

Ridge - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to slinky wizard:

> Really bad in the lakes it’s definitely getting worse!

Can agree with that, there certainly doesn't need to be any bracken around. The O'Tom tick removers are excellent.

jungle - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

Cases aren't more frequent they are just getting identified/diagnosed as guidelines for GPs and Clinicians came into effect this year. 

My opinion is that you should always have a small first aid kit when you go out climbing and that should include a tick-tool capable of removing nymphs and adults (not humans).

Rob Parsons on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Ridge:

> The O'Tom tick removers are excellent.

They are. But they are not always effective in getting the very smallest of the nymphs off. So I'd recommend some very fine-nosed tweezers as well.

I like climbing - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I am sure I was told by a German recently that they have a Lyme Disease prevention injection in Germany. She had also received the inoculation but I can’t find any up to date mention of it. I believe one was withdrawn from the market around 2002.......

PPP - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

After finding few ticks last time I was out, I was considering shaving my furry legs. It's so difficult to spot them when my legs are covered in dark hair... 

JimR - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

I think its definitely on the up. I never picked up any ticks at all, until about 10 years ago. So that's about 35 years of bracken bashing etc without any. Not only that, I did get infected from a bite which gave me several years of problems. So my take is that there are a lot more ticks about now that there used to be. I wonder if global warming is having an effect where we don't have the really prolonged cold spells in winter and/or theres less insecticides about now.

elsewhere on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to I like climbing:

> I am sure I was told by a German recently that they have a Lyme Disease prevention injection in Germany. She had also received the inoculation but I can’t find any up to date mention of it. I believe one was withdrawn from the market around 2002.......

I think that's for tick-borne encephalitis rather than Lyme disease.

I like climbing - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to elsewhere:

Thanks - I think you’re right

pneame on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to Dave Williams:

> They're smaller sheep ticks, so in Wales you'll find them on vegetation in all areas where there may be sheep, plus areas where there are none, the latter due to ticks not being very clever but seemingly highly opportunistic - as in any cat, dog or human will do. You don't need to be near bracken or grass either. One once crawled onto my hand off a rock in Craig Cwm Silyn's descent gully.

Gosh, Dave, that's a bit harrowing! Also your detailed description on the other thread.

I've only been bitten by a tick once in my life (Glen Etive in the 70s ) and the horror of these things being all over the place makes me glad my life has been so sheltered (well, somewhat glad. 

This is a rather dense and a bit (2011) old overview - your GP seems to be well up on things

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK57011/   [ skip to the last bit ]

The bottom line is 

1) we are pretty ignorant

2) there's a range of organisms

3) yes they do get sequestered

4) it's war out there between our immune systems and pathogens. We are just caught in the middle

Post edited at 18:58
purplemonkeyelephant - on 07 Jun 2018
In reply to JimR:

When I was a kid I never heard a thing about ticks unless you were at the vets, and we were always playing in the long grass. Nowadays I wouldn't go near long grass, and always have to check myself and any dogs I'm with. It surely has to be a bit of an epidemic now, they are everywhere wild animals are. 

skog on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to thread:

I'm a bit surprised at the number of people who seem to have rarely encountered ticks before.

They may well be on the increase, but they've always loved me and they're always abundant in mid spring to early summer; over the four (and a bit) decades of my life, I have, without any exaggeration, had well over a hundred embedded in me, often several in one day.

I'm paranoid about them and detest them, so only very occasionally have they stayed in for very long, but I've had many days when I've found tens of them crawling up me, and inevitable the odd one gets through. I've had one day in Knoydart in June when I picked over a hundred off my clothes, and another time on the hills north of Loch Maree in May when I lost count, and it may have been worse.

I've never, to my knowledge, had Lyme, but I'm concerned about the risk now and have started treating my trousers (and my wife's, and our daughters') with permethrin, which seems to help significantly.

 
Simon Caldwell - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to JimR:

Probably coincidence, but I started noticing them after the nastier forms of sheep dip were banned...

fmck - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to john morrissey:

About 6 weeks ago I found what I thought was a oil stain on my arm when lifting an outboard. The next day it turned into a bulls eye rash with clearly a bite in the middle. I kind of suspected what it meant and showed it to a friend who stalks deer. He was deadly serious about wasting no time and go directly to A & E.  After a 3 hour wait due to being so busy the guy didn't know what to do until his senior came in grabbed   my arm and said it was just a bruise. Fortunately I didn't leave it at that and got an appointment with my GP. She was spot on the ball and got me on doxycyline immediately. She couldn't believe that the hospital dismissed it as a bruise. I reckon I was bitten the week before on Arran walking the dog. The rash can take weeks after the initial bite. 

Rob Parsons on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to JimR:

> ... I wonder if global warming is having an effect where we don't have the really prolonged cold spells in winter ...

I was hoping that perhaps the long cold Winter we had this year might have put a  damper on things, but not so: there seem to be more of the little buggers about than ever.

 

Dave Williams - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Probably coincidence, but I started noticing them after the nastier forms of sheep dip were banned...

I think you're right. All the Welsh farmers, conservation staff and national park staff I've discussed this with have all been of the same opinion. No one really seems to think climate change has anything to do with it. We've just  had a proper winter and yet they're out in droves once again. What was once a predominantly Scottish issue is now endemic to the whole of the UK. 

Solve one serious problem, then create another as a consequence. 

subtle on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to Red Rover:

> Sounds like Lymes is maybe the most dangerous part of being a climber in the UK these days.

Well, that, and not falling off and decking it.

harrig-01 - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to fmck:

I got a tic bite 7 days ago and just been prescribed doxycyline 2 days ago for the same red ring on my ankle. How did you find the outcome was? Did you need further tests done after? Iv lived and played in tic hotspots my whole life and never had one and was pretty clueless about the signs/ symptoms until now.

Dave Williams - on 08 Jun 2018
In reply to harrig-01:

There are 2 specific blood tests for Lyme antibodies. If you were tested immediately, the results may not show anything and be a false negative. You need to wait awhile - and they probably won't go to the expense of testing your bloods unless there's further issues. See my last post here (and please don't get alarmed):

 https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/hilltalk/ticks_on_babies-686697

fmck - on 09 Jun 2018
In reply to harrig-01:

If you got onto the medication at the first sign I wouldn't worry. That's the critical step from what I've been told. Stopping the bacteria from getting it's foot in the door and establishing itself in your body is your main goal and for me was all I really wanted. The lack of knowledge is probably it's best defence. The worrying thing is how little knowledge there is especially with the medical profession. Last week one of our guys got a tick bite repairing a water main and was a first in all the years we have worked here. I put together a tool box talk and included loads of pictures to try educate everyone on the dangers. Surprisingly the guys really took it on board and for the first time everyone took the subject very seriously. This is no longer a hill goers problem and is now at our front door.

fmck - on 09 Jun 2018
In reply to Dave Williams:

I was told we had to wait for 3 weeks in order to achieve 60% success rate in detecting. When the results came back it just said no further action. Not the most convincing results!

JimR - on 09 Jun 2018
In reply to fmck:

My understanding is that the existing tests can give false negatives and that advice is to administer antibiotics as soon as symptoms or rash appear. Once established it is difficult to address. I was on two years of heavy antibiotics


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