UKC

So we all know you shouldn't shelter under a tall tree, or under a cliff or in a cave in a thunderstorm. And you should get some distance from any metal, which could include walking poles, rucksack frames, ice-axe and crampons if you are hiking. https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/safety/thunder-and-lightning.aspx

That's all easily said, but what it seems to mean is that you take off your rucksack, put your waterproofs on, cover up your rucksack so that it (hopefully) stays dry, walk away some distance to a low open area, and then crouch down to suffer potentially torrential rain and a hailstorm. You can't keep walking to wherever you were going, because you will have to come back for your rucksack once the storm is over.

I confess I sheltered in a small cave under a low cliff in Turkey in a storm recently. There were loads of cliffs around and the chances of lightening striking that particular cliff seemed very low. I left my rucksack (with quite a bit of metal) a distance away along the cliff. Should I have suffered the storm in the open to avoid the risk? Does anyone really do that?

It all depends on your own risk assessment at the time and what you deem safest.

Do you have waterproofs? An if so are they going to keep out a proper down pour? Is getting soaked and hypothermia a bigger risk than getting struck by lightening? Are you on a ridge or already in a wooded valley? Is it a 'proper' storm or just rumbling in the distance? 

If you're only a few minutes from proper shelter then it would seem safest to keep going. How much warning you get before a storm hits and your location might seriously limit your options anyway. 

Not sure if it helps, but I've been able to 'feel' the change in potential twice, once in France on a sport route and once at the top of Rhylstone.

If you put your hand up and feel/hear a buzz it's time to get as low as you can as quick as you can...

Hugging your shoulders to your knees apparently gives the shortest route to ground, hopefully avoiding disrupting your heart.

The whole getting rid of metal items thing has always seemed a bit odd to me. I certainly wouldn't be waving a walking pole above my head in a thunder storm but I don't really see how a pair of crampons in a rucksack is going to "attract" lightning (which is able to arc ~1000m).

Crampons inside a wet (Faraday cage?) rucksack maybe not an issue.

Ice axe or crampons strapped to outside of rucksack definitely an issue as spikes have higher electric fields than round objects initiating the arc from ground upwards.

https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svrwx101/lightning/faq/#:~:text=Does%20....

I once heard electric buzzing noise. Turned round but noise still behind me - electric discharge from ice axe on rucksack I was carrying. It was time to dump rucksacks, crouch and wonder about being only pointy bits on a broad snow covered ridge.

Another time in summer we saw thunderstorms coming towards us so we went down steep side rather than ridge. Just as well we did as lightning did hit the ridge.

The logic is that lightning follows the path of least resistance to ground. If the last 2 metres are easier through you then that's where it goes.

Still vanishingly small odds though

We got caught out in a storm while paddling on the Wye recently. On a wide bit but with high land to one side.

We sheltered next to the bank under trees and next to the cliffs. Against all advice of don't do that. I deemed it lesser risk than staying on the open bits of water.

When I was at university there was an event of the surf club members getting many injuries and hospitalisations because a land cliff strike travelled through the water. This was going through my head too when thinking what the best course of action might be.

I am not sure if there is any good basis for discarding metal items.  I recall once reading in my Mountaincraft and Leadership book that although metal items can disconcertingly hum, they don't attract lightning.  Obviously, waving a walking pole above your head is asking for trouble but just having them with you is not an additional risk.  I have read much of the article which elsewhere has kindly provided a link to and haven't seen anything on there which suggests that carrying metal items is intrinsically dangerous.

Happy to be proven wrong though.

It would seem advisable to avoid being proven wrong on this; at least, via self-experiment.

I got caught out in a thunderstorm getting up to a ridgeline I was hoping to cross in northern Spain a few years back on the MTB.

It was starting to get pretty wild (phone went totally crazy in the electric field) so turned tail and rode really fast back down - have just checked Starva, still have the KOM on the main trail section, lol. Nothing like a bit of fear to make you pedal fast.

A mate and I summited a Dolomite peak just as a massive storm was kicking off. We’d climbed in sunshine all day, when we topped out the sky was black. The guidebook time for the descent was 90 mins, we did it in 35, including small ladder sections, and my mate has a gammy leg.
 

OP: I believe soaking wet waterproofs are better than being dry or saturated to the skin. The lightning will go round rather than through you. Still probably not a pleasurable experience.

Running like hell at the first hint of a storm is my usual defence. I’ve had a couple of close calls in the Pyrenees and I’ve no desire to be flash-barbecued.

After being caught near a river crossing in a thunderstorm (where a lady from another party was struck and sadly died) we investigated and found the advice was as you say but also included underwire from your bra. So we would have need to strip, get 20m away from the rucksack / bra / walking pole and find somewhere without river that wasn't under a tree (all during absolutely pouring rain) - would have been nearly impossible anyway. Luckily we were mainly down from the hill.

I know someone who was on a fishing charter in flat calm weather when lightning started striking the sea. They were the tallest object for miles around, yet were never struck.

Hold a 1 iron above your head and walk in the long grass- not even God can hit a 1 Iron in the rough. (With apologies to I think Lee Trevino)

It's also to make the current go to/from earth through your arse rather than your feet - holes burnt in the bottom of your feet are more of a problem in life than ones burnt in your arse cheeks.

Anyone have a definitive risk to lightning strike increased if you have metal on you??

I'd have thought that there are many better earthing points in lightening than a human being, given in hills etc., you are not likely to be the nearest good earthing point anyway.

I spent several years at sea - on metal boats, with tall metal masts & aerials.  I've sailed through many thunderstorms and tropical lightening.  I've seen lightening earth/strike the sea as little as a mile away.  I can't say I ever heard of ships being the frequent subjects of lightening strikes  - but no doubt there has been the odd one.

Meh.. just make sure your climbing partner is a bit taller than you. Problem solved, you're welcome

I make my tall climbing partners wear suitable helmets for my protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickelhaube#/media/File:%D0%9F%D1%80%D1%83%D1...

See also:
"I don't have to outrun the lion mate, just you."

So be realistic.. I got stuck In a hail and thunderstorm in Australia ( falls creek) where the marble suzrd hail was very painful and potentially very dangerous...

Closest I've had was in woods by a lake, running on a hot, incredibly humid day... whoosh, white flash, bang and then the smell of ozone, it hut a flag pole in someone's garden on a small hill

I think that's a good point. it's worth knowing that trees can explode because the current gets into the moisture within the wood and immediately vaporizes any liquid water causing sudden expansion in a confined space.

if you're a sweaty mess you might get away with a Faraday effect, but: it's been known for people struck by lightning to come round some distance away from their shredded boots (laced up leather makes a nice solid confinement for vaporizing the water off your wet feet)

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/06/24/lightning-georgia-...

Get a job as a conductor, and you'll be ok.

A standing person might not seem a great earthing point but if the alternative is for the lightning to travel through the air then it’s a relatively easier path to travel through the person.

A direct hit isn’t the only mechanism. It could be through the ground - up one leg and down the other. This is more likely to be fatal for a quadruped as it could travel through the vital organs.

I’ve read somewhere that the “zone of protection” offered by a ship’s mast is approximately a cone with a radius (at the water) equal to the height of the mast. So a ship doesn’t seem to draw fire from very far away despite sometimes being the tallest thing for miles.

Very tragically Arthur de Kuzel (known to me and others from Llanberis) and his partner were struck by lightning and killed in the Alps - here's a report:

https://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1994_files/AJ%201994%201...

I've read another report by a climber who was below them that night and saw it all happen. He said they were struck repeatedly by lightning (sorry I don't have a reference for that second report)

I remember rock climbing in Spains Picos mountains when a large electrical storm came in. We found a spot to sit it out but it looked like torrential rain coming. Asked my mate if he had a survival bag we could shelter under. He said no but had a foil blanket. I said if you want to wrap yourself in foil in an electrical storm your on your own. He quickly realised.

Funnily enough he did get zapped later that day on a small rock summit from St Elmos fire. I seen it coming and took my hands off the rock. I can tell you I shifted on ground I would normally be on all fours on.

That's very sad.

Thanks everyone. I wasn't aware that you can sometimes get some prewarning that lightening is about to strike, and in such a case should crouch down, so that's good to know.

It sounds like, before it rains, it could make sense to take your rucksack off and sit somewhere low until either the storm passes or it starts to rain. If it does start to rain then you have an option to (a) put waterproofs on, cover up your rucksack and walk on, relying on the fact that your wet waterproofs may well carry a lightening strike to the ground away from you or (b) take a risk and shelter under some rocks or a cliff if available. For (a) avoid walking near any open water. For (b) the more rocks and cliffs that are around the more reason to choose this, as then there is a lower chance of your rocks or cliff being struck. Obviously if there is a hut or car you can get to quickly then that is the best option, but I'm talking about situations where there isn't.

All the people telling you NOT to shelter under a cliff and NOT to shelter under trees are failing to tell you what you SHOULD do.

My unqualified opinion only, but it seems like overkill leaving your rucksack behind.  No harm in it though I suppose if you're hunkering down close by.

Regarding shelter, do you carry a bothy bag?  It's something that's worth having anyway and if you are hunkered down on open ground in torrential rain, especially with a mate, that would make it more comfortable.  (Also if we're clutching at straws with the "wet waterproofs = faraday cage" thing, it could only improve the situation from that point of view.)

Here you go:

https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/lightning/safetytips.html

Definitely ditch rucksack if pointy walking poles, crampons or ice axe strapped on.

Points promote electrical breakdown, that's why lightning conductors are pointy so the lightning hits the conductor rather than the building they protect.

Crouch so you are not highest conductor about.

Crouch with bum and feet on ground so if any current in ground from nearby strike that diverts through you goes through feet-legs-bum and not through heart or brain. Hence don't lie down.

I've been zapped and was very lucky not to be more badly fried, or just knocked off the crag and killed, but realistically there was nothing we would have done differently since there was no thunder. We had literally no warning. We were just fortunate to be sitting on a ledge at the time, not standing or perched on the very top where I presume the strike actually touched down (the Cobbler summit block - we were on the exposed ledge that goes from the cave to the summit).

I assume we 'just' picked up a bit of side flash or ground current, not a direct hit. This page explains the different sorts of strike: https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-struck

I've never been caught outdoors during thunderstorms since then - but I'm definitely a bit twitchy about it and I'd be heading to relative safety as soon as there was a distant rumble. If the forecast says afternoon thunderstorms then I'm planning to be home by noon.

But there's always the chance you're still out when it arrives, or you didn't see a forecast that day, or the forecast is wrong. If there was no secure building to hand, I'd don waterproofs and then not worry about getting wet (I guess there's a theory it might even help if you were struck - Faraday Cage). I might discard spiky metal things for good measure, but I think that putting yourself in the best place possible in the circumstances is more the thing to get exercised about in a crisis, and the metalwork is lower priority. I'd keep my pack to sit on.

The info we reproduced from Mountain Training in this old article is a useful and easily remembered guide to dos and don'ts if you're outside and don't have a ready escape indoors:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/how_to_avoid_lightning-7458  

A few weeks ago there was a thunderstorm overnight while I was camping in a little backpacking tent. I was on low ground but near a river. I didn't really know what to do for the best and the poor dog was beside herself (the thunderstorm hadn't been nailed on in the forecast so I hadn't wanted to cancel the weekend just in case).

It went on for two hours from the first distant rumble. I knew there were tall trees on the other side of the site (far away from me) so hoped that any lightning would find them before it found us. My friend was camping next to us so she had her car and I considered asking her if we could sit in her car to be safer but the rain was absolutely torrential and the dog was looking to bolt so I didn't really want to get out of the tent if I could help it (it was too loud for me to call out to her). When the storm was right over us I could feel the thunder vibrate the ground. I didn't have a closed cell foam mat or I'd have made sure we were both on it.

Most of the time I wouldn't have access to a car anyway. In the end we were ok and the dog calmed down once the storm passed but I wonder if staying put was the best thing to do.

I remember hearing about that (I know Jan), it sounded terrifying in that there was no warning, though the sky in the photos from what I assume was that day in your book look a bit threatening, but that's hindsight.

Three friends were blown off their feet some distance in West Benula area. Again they said there was no warning, just a sudden dealing clap and flash. They said they went quite a distance and were lucky not to have gone in the direction of a cliff. 

I may be remembering this wrong but I think it was Jerry Gore who got some spectacular scars on his arse from sitting on a ledge on a big route in Canada some years back.

Stand up tall and complain that processes in the air is political agitation and that you have a right to stay.

Metal objects attract lightning - myth. Throwing your ice axe and crampons away will be of no help, they don't attract lightning. Keeping away from metal railings, lightning conductors, railway tracks etc is because if lightning hits them then they become hazardous not because they attract it https://lightning.org/knowing-fact-from-fiction-can-save-lives-and-prevent-....

Lightning is fairly often (but not always) preceded by a warning. Surely you've heard a story from someone about thinking they had a bee stuck in their helmet just before the ridge was struck?

Wet clothing isn't a reliable Faraday cage but I do know of one story where that happened (I heard direct and no reason to doubt him) on a prairie road in Canada (highest point for miles) standing by car taking a pee during thunder storm, lightning hit between him and the car and bounced up and blew him into the ditch. When he came too, his wet clothes were steaming in tatters hanging off him like a ridiculous corny carry on film, because the seams took the current. The story is so ridiculous it has to be true.

Not sure about that... pointy conducting objects on the highest thing around means ice axes on a plateau could slightly increase risks in the same way golf clubs can in a flat open grassy area.

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=1342&t=lightning-saf...

That's not quite true...

Perhaps "attract" is the wrong word.

Pointy conductors sticking into the air produce strong local electric fields which encourage localised dielectic breakdown and increase the chance that a nearby strike will follow that path.

Carrying a lot of conductors makes "you" more conductive which can make the electric field above you stronger.  If it's pissing with rain and you're soaked through this might not make a big difference but waving an axe around your head in a thunderstorm isn't a good idea.

Lightening strike initiation and dielectric breakdown are complex subjects but the strikes will tend to follow the easiest path and there's no sense making you the easy path.

My understanding is that 'lightening conductors' work by earthing charge before a strike occurs, creating a zone of uncharged air which is less conductive (less likely to suffer dielectric breakdown)... i.e. buildings with lightening conductors are less likely to be struck.

Holding objects e.g. mobile phones is bad because if you are hit current may flow through that object causing local burns. So metal stuff in a rucksack is ok.

Being near a tree might be bad as it can produce an earth path (sitting in a cave can create a spark gap. Cows can be killed by earth currents (which is why you sit huddled up). Holding a long wet rope is not great. Being the highest point is not good...

I suppose the key question is, if you are carrying metalwork are you less likely to be hit, but if you are might the consequences be worse?

People tend to swing golf clubs above their head (well maybe not while putting) but it's uncommon to wield an ice axe above your head when you're on the local highest point - climbing up sure... but up on a ridge etc? less often, so I'm not sure they're a great comparison except for the fact golfers, especially links golfers can make themselves the local highest point, that's something in common for sure.

I've had the lightning conductors reduce lightning strikes explanation given to me a few times, like HardenClimber is mentioning. But I'm not convinced that it'll be a significant factor in the greater scheme of things, but it's worth noting it just might be a slight risk reduction (maybe?) not a clear risk increase IMHO, again compared to the all the other factors it surely has to be trivial?

Realistically there isn't much you can do other than take precautions like the ones you refer to. Probably to start descending as fast as you can safely as soon a you start hearing thunder grumbling or see lightning flashing in the distance might be an option, but generally you will be too high to outpace the approach of a storm coming your way.

I was caught out high on Cathedral Peak in the Drakensberg Mountains once, where afternoon storms  are very common. South African thunderstorms can be very dramatic and violent, which can become terrifying if you get caught in one. The lightning frequency increases to every few seconds, you literally see lightning strikes hitting the ground  within just a few metres, the thunder claps are ear splitting, and sound like a continuous drum roll, and the air sizzles and is filled with the smell of  burning rock from the strikes. The rain cascades down as though you were standing under a waterfall, and you become soaked. Fortunately the temperature is generally over 30 degrees C, so there is no danger of hypothermia. Then abruptly it stops and the storm moves on, within just a few minutes the ground start to steam, as it starts to dry out, the sun comes out and within half an hour everything, including you, are dry, the sky is blue and the sun is out blazing down on you as though nothing had happened. 

Who TH still uses metal framed rucksacks?

All mine are either padded or use plastic framing. The last metal framed pack I had was in the Scouts during the 80s.

OK, sorry, not the rucksack frame. But they do typically have aluminium reinforcing bars to keep their shape.

When I was in my final year at university, one of my housemates and his girlfriend were struck by lightning on Tooting Bec Common.

He was in hospital for a week, in her case only a few hours. He had a burn from his shoulder to toe and had obviously took the brunt of the strike. Two interesting things.

He was wearing Doc Martins and the spark had gone through his body and punched a hole through the side of his boot to arch to the ground, because of the rubber sole. She only had one burn, a very clear burn along the line of the underwire of her bra.

Isn’t the main problem that people are, in effect, a column of nicely conducting water, and that axes, rucksack frames, bra wires and what have you are comparatively trivial in terms of attracting (or not attracting) thousands of volts of raging electricity?

Yes, compared to air, humans  are highly conducting columns of salty water.

But Corona breakdown of the insulation of air occurs at sharp points and an ice axe or crampon is a hundred times pointier than a human head.  

 https://www.quora.com/Why-intensity-of-electricity-is-higher-at-sharp-point...

Although this is somewhat facetious, there is some benefit from the old humourous quip:

"Put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye!". 

The logic being a lightning strike to your behind is a lot more survivable than to your bonce!

So this is definitely out...

might be fine if worn over a chainmail balaclava as part of an entire suit ...

The Petzl Pickelhaube is a fine climbing helmet

It was on a trip to the Bugaboos I think, and recounted in an article entitled 'Young Men on fire' or something similar in High I think.

Yes, that's it, and iirc they named the route Young men on fire. 

I can understand the risk in sheltering in a cave but what about a simple stone hut? Would they be safe?

Better than nothing as lightning goes through roof & walls (wet?) rather than you. Hopefully.

I'll have to admit that, as a non-scientist, I'm rather confused by this because surely, as you say, pointy objects are typically the first to be struck, and secondly, metal objects (even with wooden handles) are conductors (like trees). What is the point of lightning conductors otherwise?

Here's an excellent, research based summary of myths/risks/advice

https://www.torro.org.uk/research/lightning/myths-risks

About sheltering under trees...

What about a forest, with many thousands of trees. Surely fine if you shelter under a non-descript tree rather than the tallest one around? 

Given all that choice, will lightening seek the highest tree to ground?

Having an axe on the left hand side of the rucksack surely puts a 50cm metal lightning conductor conveniently close to one’s heart. Sounds good to me!

As someone who has been struck by lightning I can categorically say carrying metal things makes a big difference and you should ditch them! Myself and 4 friends were near the top of a 5500m peak in the Peruvian Andes some years ago and were all struck. You could tell how the lighting traveled through each of us due to minor burns/intense pain. My mate acting as a belay got it through his arse as he was sitting on a snow stake. His partner got it through his hand mid way through placing a screw, my partner was knocked unconscious and burned a hole in his head as he still had his head torch on. We all thought he was dead, scary times! 

This is why the metal is dangerous mostly, not that it attracts lightning (although that is a factor). If you think of the body as a 'pipe' for electricity, it will typically spread over the surface of your skin (because of the 'skin effect' - not meaning human skin though) and hence spread the current. If you have something metal, all of that current wants to go through the metal because it makes it easier. However, when the current exits or enters the metal, it's still concentrated in a tight space and hence the current is greater, hence heat generated is greater, hence the damage will be greater. Most damage is done on entrance and exit plus possibly where the current deviates to pass through metal areas (bra underwires, belt buckles, etc) which will probably heat up enough to cause burns in the process as well. A lot of the burns in the body are due to the water content of the surface of the skin flashing instantly to steam or surface capillaries bursting.

The advice I've read that matches my knowledge of electrics/magnetic fields is to crouch down making yourself as small as possible, feet together. I'd probably sacrifice my arse and sit on the ground and hug my knees (after trying to get off anything exposed and away from anything that might explode if hit - and that includes rocks). 

Any notion of whether that’d be better or worse than the ‘on hands and knees’, a la yogic cat/cow (more cat, I suppose, in the slim hope that the current enters via your back instead of your head) that I’ve seen suggested previously?

Not to say this is the absolute truth, but Hardrock 100 has a section on their website about lightning (Hardrock 100 is an ultramarathon at altitude in the San Juan Range, Colorado).

They have pretty frequent storms there, and I'm guessing this is sound given that's the advice given to competitors who are in with a fair chance of getting caught in one.