UKC

I don't know if it was just me who has gone through this unpleasant experience, or if someone who knows the area well can shine some light...

I descended SW from Rhinog Fawr to pick up the "footpath" running south into Cwm Nantcol. I really struggled to find any path across all the bog, bracken and cow churned up ground, as well as facing barbed wire topped walls and no footpath markers. I got the OS app out to ensure that I was following the mapped path as to avoid peeing off any farmers.

This theme continued all the way to Llanbedr, using the app to ensure I was on the footpaths and not just my navigational errors, but finding fields of dense shoulder high bracken, overgrown woods full of brambles and holly, a lack of footpath markers and that marker poles "fallen down", and stiles crossing walls no longer where footpaths cross walls.

It took hours to do a few km and the whole thing was pretty torrid.

Is it just an unvisited area hence why paths are overgrown, are the locals not keen on walkers crossing their land (which just leads to wandering off rights of way IMO), or was I just being a dunce and missing the obvious?

You forgot the ticks. That area is riddled with 'em

I haven’t been to that area personally but during lockdown I got very into watching YouTube videos of people walking and wild camping outdoors (blame being trapped in Croydon with no car).

Anyway I particularly like an account by someone called WildBeare. She dragged a camping load round the Rhinogs and the conditions/lack of actual paths were just as you describe.

Mind you I’ve had similarly overgrown and unmarked ‘footpaths’ in the southeast. I like to look at OS maps and plot my own walks and sometimes if the paths aren’t well used it can be a struggle. The green dotted lines don’t necessarily mean there’s an actual path, which was a surprise to me when I first started out.

In developed/farmed areas they usually do, but on the fell they very often don't but rather represent historic rights of way, which are of little relevance on open-fell access land.  I'm sure I heard that the OS may consider removing them on access land, showing only physical paths with the thin black dotted line, so as to avoid this confusion.

What I find more confusing is that in Scotland often not even the physical paths are shown!  (Public rights of way not being a thing in the same way).

Some of my biggest struggles have been on farmed land where the crop has grown over the footpath, or where the field has been ploughed with no indication of where the footpath is. I really appreciate it where the farmer makes an effort to mark out the path as I certainly don't want to damage any crops.

Because I don't have a car I guess I sometimes join up more popular paths using lesser used ones, or maybe I'm just unlucky, but I seem to come across them fairly often.

Just saw your comment on Scotland - I found this really strange when I couldn't find any paths - thankfully the Ramblers have put together a map of trails that we ended up using while on holiday there recently.

The map clearly shows a RoW, but it doesn't show a path (dotted black line). Compare it to the nearby route into Bwlch Drws Ardudwy which has a green and black line. Looks like the RoW goes from the farm to Gloyw Llyn, so perhaps it's an historic route for fishing or something. Also, most of the area is access land, down to Nantcol anyway, so no legal need to follow the mapped route at all.

I don't think you missed anything obvious, just that no one uses that route. I haven't tried to do that specific route. I've always approached Rhinog Fawr direct from Bwlch Drws Ardudwy or from Llyn Du on the northern side. The Rhinogydd are certainly tough if you don't have a path to follow, and I've made similar mistakes in the area (trying to follow RoWs near Llyn Cwm Mynach) so I sympathise.

Hmm, not sure that's a good idea - if I'm not mistaken access to PRoWs is far more protected than to access land.

One issue it causes is with organisations like the National Trust, or more locally the MK Parks Trust, where organised events on or crossing their land require approval, but they have no right to prevent them on the actual public right of way.

There are however other maps you can consult if you want to know where the PRoWs are specifically.

What is the law on blocking right of ways with barbed wire topped walls? That was one of the reasons for sticking to RoW on the map as there was a maze of dry stone walls and I thought it would give the easiest crossings.

I'd walked from Barmouth the previous day and camped near Rhinog Fach, it was certainly a much tougher couple of days than expected (high winds and poor visibility didn't help on Thursday). 

I was surprised how few mapped tracks there were, i.e approaching Rhinog Fawr from the valley between it and Rhinog Fach. Luckily it appeared that if you followed your nose and more logical terrain then you found some tracks.

Welcome to the Rhinogydd! I've lived in the area all my life (60+😲) and agree, as you and others on this thread have found, it can be the most difficult and yet, the most rewarding mountain area in Wales. Access is generally very good and the farmers are very tolerant of misplaced walkers. Venturing off the two main paths of Bwlch Tyddiad (Roman Steps) and Bwlch Drws Ardudwy is a step into the unknown and a path marked on the map seldom appears on the ground. Walkers then find their own way and a myriad faint trails are formed through the heather and bilberry. Follow them and an adventure awaits. The area you described between Nantcol and Gloywlyn is notorious for this and is a rescue hotspot for the benighted. Come to think of it, it's been almost three weeks since we were out on the last one - we're due for another...

I want to say that the Elan Valley tussock-grass is even worse going, but perhaps less rewarding with it? But yes, I've got a friend who refers to them as the Busted Shin-ogs, and with good reason!

Odd you mentioned ticks. Early summer, the farmers all said it was the worst tick season for years -dogs and sheep were all badly affected. Yet, I was out in the Rhinogydd in running shorts, tiny socks and fell running shoes all summer long and never got a single one. Can't remember the last time I had one. I wonder if a medical study has been carried out as to why some people get them whilst others don't?

I suspect that's illegal. But if Myfyr says that the farmers are tolerant then I assume it's done unthinkingly here: that no usually uses that old RoW and therefore they never even considered they were impeding anyone.

The Rhinog's would be a great area to manage as a farmed/rewilded area. No sheep for starters.

Isn't that the whole point of PRoWs? That the landowner/manager cannot prevent access without due process? I think I'm missing something.

I still don't understand the motivation for the OS to remove PRoW from maps. Yes, they're still available if you consult the definitive maps, but that's usually more difficult. Landowner pressure? In my naivety I thought it would be an obligation for the national mapping agency to show all PRoWs.

Exactly what I meant.  If you want to organise a guided walk, for example, crossing MK Parks Trust access land, you must register it in advance, submit a risk assessment and gain approval.  Unlike the National Trust, this has no lower bound of numbers - any formal, organised event requires permission.

If you stick entirely to public rights of way, they have no right to require that and you can do what you like.

This was a reason *not* to remove them.

It was purely about it being confusing to walkers.

I kinda get it, and obviously it wouldn't affect the existence of the PRoWs themselves, but I'm not sure it is the best idea. At the end of the day access land can be closed for a decent chunk of the year for land management, protection of birds etc, and seeing where the PRoWs over that land, which can still be used, is really handy.

Harvey do it best, in my humble opinion, when it comes to showing PRoWs and whether they are accompanied by an actual path/trod on the ground.

It's the grazing that makes the land look like it does. Take away the sheep, and in time... say goodbye to the open countryside people like to walk. Oh and there's the jobs and homes involved for sheep farming, unless you want ethnic cleansing against some of the poorest and hardest working segment of society?

Public rights of way in England and Wales are the responsibility of the highways authority, which will be a part of the local authority. Contact the council and insist they meet their obligation for Stiles/gates/etc and footpath markers. They are legally required to do it. That said, I do know of a South Wales authority where someone even got a court to insist the council does it but so far they've done nothing  

Write a letter at least, if nobody ever asks them...

There's a reason they are poorest, of all farming sheep arguably has the smallest if any margin, they pretty much rely on subsudies, next worst is dairy as they have least control on pricing and a massive investment. Low density beef grazing pays best relative to man hours, but not acreage. Forestry pays better than anything animal related. Sheep are also the worst environmentally speaking because they graze so close, nothing survives apart from bracken. 

Much of the rhinogs, arans, berwyns etc... have paths, but not necessarily right of ways, landowners have no legal obligation to maintain stiles etc. 

As a farmer on the Cheshire/Shropshire border, we have several footpaths with stiles, etc. A few years ago one of the styles collapsed and we did a "temporary" repair so people could use it. I reported it to the relevant body in the Council and received a major bollocking for daring to do anything to the stile.

We also have a small bridge over one of our streams which were in a dangerous state. The council said they would come and install a replacement. We said if they told us when they were coming we would lift the old bridge out with the Loadall. They turned up without informing us and installed the new bridge over the top of the remains of the old one, which partially blocked the stream.

So if there are any problems with stiles or bridges on our land we don't bother reporting them or make any attempt to repair them.

I have to agree with that, plus who cares where the bloody parish boundaries are?

Switching to a similar system (e.g. PF visible/not visible on ground) would be a better option.

There's also a problem with Facebook groups bleating about removing 'dangerous' paths from OS Maps...

That's a bit silly. Large parts of access land are dangerous too, but the fact that we have a right to be there is a totally different matter, and it's the same with footpaths. How do you even determine whether a footpath is 'dangerous'?!

I read a tripadvisor review of Snowdon recently, apparently it is too steep. I hope the council takes notice!

Just be thankful Snowdon isn't in Derbyshire.

I think more than one MRT attendence to someone  who can't map read qualifies.