UKC

/ What do you define as a 'Quality Mountain Day'?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Bee_1 - on 15 Oct 2012
As above really, a friend and I have recently both been on different summer ML training courses, we have done lots of our walking together and so parts of our logbook are fairly similar!

I was told that the majority of the days in my logbook counted as QMD's, however my friend was told that very few of hers counted and was told that a day cannot count unless it involved the majority of it off of paths, 5 hours at height, I,e, the walk in and out didnt count towards the time. It was pointed out to her that the CMD arête up to Ben Nevis didn't count.

In my mind, I had a QMD as one which fitted the criteria in the logbook and one on which you were tested in some way/learnt something, I would hope that not every one of these had to be mountain epics.

Both of our courses were at one of the national mountain centres, albeit we both went to different ones.
deepstar - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: I have no experience of the courses you refer to but as Ian Drury said of "hit me with your rythm stick" if you have to ask what it is about you`ll never understand anyway.
1
AlH - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: From the Award handbook and the FAQ page of the website- http://www.mountain-training.org/faqs
What is a Quality Mountain Day?

In terms of experience, the quality of a mountain day lies in such things as the conditions experienced both overhead and underfoot, the exploration of new areas, the terrain covered and the physical and mental challenge. Such days make a positive contribution towards a person’s development and maturity as an all round mountaineer.

Usually some or all of these criteria would be fulfilled:
the individual takes part in the planning and leadership
navigation skills are required away from marked paths
experience must be in terrain and weather comparable to that found in UK and Irish hills
knowledge is increased and skills practised
attention is paid to safety
five hours or more journey time
adverse conditions may be encountered

Its hard to comment on the views of the trainer without the context, their experience of the candidate and the logbook but in general:
I'd put the CMD down as a QMD for most people subject to it meeting most of the criteria above for that person.
It says 'some or all of these criteria would be fulfilled'. So a route that did fulfil most of the other criteria may well still count.

If you want a truly informed answer: http://www.mountain-training.org/contact-us
Al
TheAndyBarker - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: CMD is definitely part of a QMD.. if you have any queries, get in touch with your home nation board and if you have a complaint about either of the national centres, take it up with their repective directors of training. (Martin Chester at PyB)They'll generally be quite attentive to complaints. Definition in the candidate notes is pretty comprehensive and if your day fits the description.. then it should be counted as a QMD.. Just get lots of time in and no-one can complain
CM - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: I'd say CMD is a great mountain day. Not sure there yardstick is the same as mine...
s.scott - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

People seem to make up their own definitions of what a "QMD" is.

Instructors have told me that Dartmoor doesn't count while a bimble in the lakeland fells does... Its madness.

I go by if I've had fun/learnt something new/been somewhere nice then its a qmd. But not necessarily all three.

Here is a question. I spent a week out walking in the Bavarian alps this summer. So conditions pretty similar to that of the UK's summer in terms of weather and terrain, new challenging areas. Learning how to navigate using a different map. Are they QMD's?
Cameron94 on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to s.scott: There are pages (or you can download them from MLT) for oersea's experience. It all counts but for obvious reasons they main focus is on uk hills.

I would add them.
peas65 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

If the CMD doesnt count as a QMD in the trainers eyes, what would?

Use the guidelines, but i log most long walks that i do, everything counts towards your experience and that is what the log book is for, to show the breadth of your experience. WHen at assessment if the examiners only sees the minimum they will be looking closely at you to make sure you do have enough experience, they cant mind read and tell that you have only recorded some days and not others.

I wouldnt say that necessarily each day has to have a learning point but it could be as simple as coping with different weather conditions or navigational challenges.

The only thing i don't log is the walk in to mountain crags as to me that is a crag day not a walk day but i know plenty of people who include that too.

if i was told the CMD wasnt a mountain day i dont think i would be going back there for assessment as the trainer clearly holds different views to the MLTA.

JohnnyW - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

It does strike me each time I see this question asked that it is more often asked by folks cobbling together a minimum pre-requisite, rather than a question about definition.

Get out and get experience, particularly in the more challenging areas if possible - I was asked by a chap if his 20-odd times up Kinder Scout counted! Of course, a misty old tramp up there builds experience, but not repeatedly.

As someone said further up the thread, if you've got to ask, I think you're maybe not grasping what the intention of it all is. The CMD certainly is a QMD, but maybe doesn't fit the bill if you're guided or something - Can't think why else it wouldn't be.

Ask yourself, would I be happy on the Cairngorm plateau, in the mist, wind and hail, with 5 or 6 folks in tow, relying on you to get them down safely, as dark approaches?
Toerag - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to s.scott:
> Here is a question. I spent a week out walking in the Bavarian alps this summer. So conditions pretty similar to that of the UK's summer in terms of weather and terrain, new challenging areas. Learning how to navigate using a different map. Are they QMD's?

I think the answer is a rather disappointing 'no' due the fact that it's all paths there. It's worth including them in your log as more is better, and I think being caught out in bad weather in the alps can be just as bad as in the UK. I for one am not going to be doing my ML as I don't have the time or money to spend every single day of my annual leave for two years walking in the UK hills.
Gael Force on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: I think the remark about mountain routes with paths not counting is a bit absurd, its quite hard to find a Munro without a path, and also paths criss cross and diverge requiring navigation in poor visibility.
In the Lakes there are unfortunately paths everywhere so presumably no QMD mountain days can be found in the Lakes anymore?
The last time I was up Ben Nevis I walked up the CMD for some photographs and then scrambled down Tower ridge which was a quality day, and on paths all the way.
I think your problem was that your friend did not have a quality mountain instructor. Do tell us which centre?.
Parrys_apprentice - on 15 Oct 2012
I walked up dungeon ghyll once, cooled bottles of cider in the stream, swam in the pool under the waterfall, drank some cider, ambled up to Stickle tarn, another swim, down again. It perhaps only just met the time criteria, but in every respect it was quality.
peas65 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

It must be PYB to think the CMD was not a QMD- something about dissing the scottish and all that
peas65 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to peas65: ooh lots of an acronyms- get me
TheDrunkenBakers - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: Much of this has to be subjective.

For instance, I did a 7.5 hour walk from Milburn over the Duns and Cross Fell at the weekend which included much that was off path, new stuff learned at the NATS and historic interest abandoned Silverband Mine. Some, albeit easy, navigation and off route work followed by many beers with good friends when we got back to the campsite. Weather was in the main great with fab views. Saw about half a dozen folks all day.

To be this was nothing short of a QMD and far better some of my either longer or hardder walking days.

Bee_1 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to JohnnyW:

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the requisites e.t.c it was more the discrepancies between the two courses and the variable nature of what the instructors thought a QMD was
JohnnyW - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:
> (In reply to JohnnyW)
>
> Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the requisites e.t.c it was more the discrepancies between the two courses and the variable nature of what the instructors thought a QMD was

Sure. I suppose what I'm saying is don't get hung up on it. Get experienced, and be able to 'prove it' is the message really.

Good luck with it - I find my leading to be the most rewarding thing I do in the hills.
nufkin - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

Is it possible they thought the CMD was a bit *beyond* a standard ML QMD? In terms of something you might do as a Leader, I mean - it should still count as experience either way, of course.

I suppose this sort of thing is why it seems to be a good idea to put pretty much everything you do outside down in the logbook - if the assessors don't think something counts as a quality day, they can still see a weath of other experience.

Pritchard - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1:

For me the main aspects to a QMD are 5 hrs min and a significant peak. I recorded repeat mountain walks, but only highlighted one of those days at assessment as part of my 40, even if I went a slightly different route. I would include a walk under 5 hrs or without significant peaks if there was exceptional conditions you had to deal with etc. I did have issues with my ML training at One of the national training centres a few years ago and spoke with the head of training. In my case the helping instructor was still fairly new, which explained thenissue that occuref. I would strongly advise you/your friend take the matter up with them as it does sound a bit off...

Craig
Banned User 77 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: I just logged everything, its all experience. I had ones of less than an hour.. certainly a QMD can be less than 5hrs...

Any time in the hills adds to your experience and general competence, experiencing the terrain, weather etc..

I literally just edited my running log and added a few walking days in, probably submitted a good few hundred days,
Banned User 77 - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to Pritchard: So you'd not class Colin Donnelly's record breaking Welsh 3000ers run or Es Tressiders Cuillin ridge record run as both were 5 hrs...

Re the Bavarian alps, wasn't there a section for othe experience? I thought there was.. I think its mainly UK for ML, but just everything in.. TBH if you are struggling to list 30 odd days then I'd be worried about lack of experience..
Pritchard - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:

I would direct you to the third and fourth lines of my post, so that would be a yes I very likely would :P
butteredfrog - on 15 Oct 2012
In reply to nufkin:

In my experience CMD definately comes under ML remit. It all depends on your group on the day!

Adam
D.botts87 - on 20 Oct 2012
In reply to s.scott: Id def agree with dartmoor as QMD. Okay so its only 600m high on the biggest tors, but from mypast experience of dartmoor its so much more navigationaly challenging due to the lack of prominent features / tracks and poor weather conditions. Im also pretty sure that in the latest mlte log book, Dartmoor is a region that is accepted for QMD's
yer maw on 21 Oct 2012
In reply to Bee_1: to be fair I think the requirement for QMDs is very important it's just the interpretation from the various instructors, some of whom may be a bit pedantic and green to appreciate what is acceptable. As long as you've been out in various 'Mountain' ranges for big hill days and have a decent amount of them then that has to be what everyone is aiming for. Bit difficult if your in Southern England comapred to Central Scotland. I'm sure lots of people invent and exagerrate some of their mountain days, but you would get found out at assessment.

What's the pass rate these days and is it different for those from different areas of the UK ?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.