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As a first time wild camper (going with somebody who has done it before) where is the best place to wild camp in the Snowdonia National Park? I understand that it needs to be high up and not on anybody's land. So, any suggestions?
In reply to melissabunbury: This is wild camping with the aim of doing some multi pitch climbing as well
In reply to melissabunbury:
You can pretty much camp anywhere you want, as long as you're out of sight.
People will tell you it's illegal, but it's not. Just find your self a nice scenic spot out of the wind.
You can pretty much camp anywhere you want, as long as you're out of sight.
People will tell you it's illegal, but it's not. Just find your self a nice scenic spot out of the wind.
In reply to melissabunbury:
There are two good options in the Carneddau that I would recommend. Wild camping is best when in remote setting IMHO.
Cwm Eigiau on the eastern flank of Carnedd Llewelyn is a good wild camping spot and gives you access to Craig yr Ysfa:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=530
Cwm Llafar on the northern flank of Carnedd Dafydd is also great for wild camping and gives you access to Llech Ddu:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=502
There are two good options in the Carneddau that I would recommend. Wild camping is best when in remote setting IMHO.
Cwm Eigiau on the eastern flank of Carnedd Llewelyn is a good wild camping spot and gives you access to Craig yr Ysfa:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=530
Cwm Llafar on the northern flank of Carnedd Dafydd is also great for wild camping and gives you access to Llech Ddu:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=502
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to melissabunbury)
>
> You can pretty much camp anywhere you want, as long as you're out of sight.
>
> People will tell you it's illegal, but it's not.
Is that correct? >
> You can pretty much camp anywhere you want, as long as you're out of sight.
>
> People will tell you it's illegal, but it's not.
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
It isn't illegal it's a civil matter. You won't be arrested!
Now I'm not advocating trespass, but as long as you are quiet and out of the way, there won't be a problem.
But you knew that already?
It isn't illegal it's a civil matter. You won't be arrested!
Now I'm not advocating trespass, but as long as you are quiet and out of the way, there won't be a problem.
But you knew that already?
In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
No it's not correct; wildcamping is illegal in England and Wales (with the exception of Dartmoor) but it's a civil offence not a criminal one. If you're asked to move on by the landowner, you are obliged to do so. Responsible wildcampers who arrive late, leave early and leave no trace, are generally tolerated provided they're camping above the fence line and well away from habitation.
No it's not correct; wildcamping is illegal in England and Wales (with the exception of Dartmoor) but it's a civil offence not a criminal one. If you're asked to move on by the landowner, you are obliged to do so. Responsible wildcampers who arrive late, leave early and leave no trace, are generally tolerated provided they're camping above the fence line and well away from habitation.
In reply to Welsh Kate:
How can it be illegal, when you are not breaking any law, please enlighten me on the law, and I'll eat my hat.
How can it be illegal, when you are not breaking any law, please enlighten me on the law, and I'll eat my hat.
In reply to xplorer:
Because legally you should ask the permission of the landowner to camp there. Obviously this is usually impractical.
Because legally you should ask the permission of the landowner to camp there. Obviously this is usually impractical.
In reply to melissabunbury: Cloggy would be nice, Cwm Silyn to do Kirkus route?
In reply to Welsh Kate:
Yes, that's just a formality. Nobody stays on some one else's land, like farmers or business's.
We own our national parks, the Peak District frowns upon it. But I've never failed to get a good nights sleep.
Yes, that's just a formality. Nobody stays on some one else's land, like farmers or business's.
We own our national parks, the Peak District frowns upon it. But I've never failed to get a good nights sleep.
In reply to xplorer:
What, start a huge debate on your perception on whether its legal or not?
> (In reply to Run_Ross_Run)
>
> Ps lets not start a huge debate about it.
>
> Ps lets not start a huge debate about it.
What, start a huge debate on your perception on whether its legal or not?
In reply to Climbygirly: Hope you find somewhere nice. The thing I found a big consideration for wild-camping and trad is the weight you have to lug up. Pack even more light than usual. sorry I know that's obvious but rack, ropes, tent, food etc add up. It's about the only time I'd take trecking poles.
In reply to Dandelion: yeah this is something we've had a thought about and we think we may come back to the car to swap bags and things. I don't think I'm enough of a hardcore climber to carry both lots of things! Thanks for all the advice!
In reply to Dandelion: Weight is a major issue. The slog up to Cwm Lloer with camping gear food, winter climbing gear, ropes and rack was a high price to pay for a prime wild camping spot and a First Winter ascent - worth every drop of sweat though.
The last spot we wild camped at was nice.
From the Pen Y Pass car park on the Lamberis road, about half way there is a viewpoint with parking on both sides of the road. I forget the name of the boulder there and a few famous crags to look at either side of the pass. We camped behind some rocks on the stream side. That was what got me into climbing, figuring out where the trad climbers were on the crags. I thought the sport seemed to awesome to forget.
Lovely watching the sun go down through the valley toward Laberis!
From the Pen Y Pass car park on the Lamberis road, about half way there is a viewpoint with parking on both sides of the road. I forget the name of the boulder there and a few famous crags to look at either side of the pass. We camped behind some rocks on the stream side. That was what got me into climbing, figuring out where the trad climbers were on the crags. I thought the sport seemed to awesome to forget.
Lovely watching the sun go down through the valley toward Laberis!
In reply to Oogachooga: Is Laberis/Lamberis where all those sheepish scientists come from?
In reply to Oogachooga:
That's the Cromlech Layby. It's a pretty popular spot. We've actually managed to get away with pitching a huge four man tent there but it's not recommended, most people use small single tents or even bivvy bags. I've heard that the farmer often gets up early to catch people out. Also, the sound of the stream made me need a piss all night. It's a lovely spot in good weather though.
> The last spot we wild camped at was nice.
>
> From the Pen Y Pass car park on the Lamberis road, about half way there is a viewpoint with parking on both sides of the road. I forget the name of the boulder there and a few famous crags to look at either side of the pass. We camped behind some rocks on the stream side. That was what got me into climbing, figuring out where the trad climbers were on the crags. I thought the sport seemed to awesome to forget.
>
> Lovely watching the sun go down through the valley toward Laberis!
>
> From the Pen Y Pass car park on the Lamberis road, about half way there is a viewpoint with parking on both sides of the road. I forget the name of the boulder there and a few famous crags to look at either side of the pass. We camped behind some rocks on the stream side. That was what got me into climbing, figuring out where the trad climbers were on the crags. I thought the sport seemed to awesome to forget.
>
> Lovely watching the sun go down through the valley toward Laberis!
That's the Cromlech Layby. It's a pretty popular spot. We've actually managed to get away with pitching a huge four man tent there but it's not recommended, most people use small single tents or even bivvy bags. I've heard that the farmer often gets up early to catch people out. Also, the sound of the stream made me need a piss all night. It's a lovely spot in good weather though.
In reply to Trevers: Has no camping signs up these days but you still see the occasional tent there early/late.
In reply to Climbygirly: The problem these days is if you stash your tent somewhere during the day it'll be in the "Lost and Found" section of this forum before it's got dark ;p
In reply to Climbygirly: Below Tryfan -Llyn Bochlywd (or Australia lake). Walk up from Idwal into a hanging valley. Lots of rock above to get up onto ridge and your own lake!
This thread was started in the STARTING OUT forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.
HILLTALK - A general forum for topics relating to hillwalking. Discuss walks you have been on, great scrambles, the best ridges, Munro-bagging and longer multi-day walks.
More Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.
HILLTALK - A general forum for topics relating to hillwalking. Discuss walks you have been on, great scrambles, the best ridges, Munro-bagging and longer multi-day walks.
More Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html
In reply to Climbygirly: I wouldn't recommend a specific spot on a public forum for obvious reasons (just open a map and take your pick). In case it's helpful here's an article on responsible wild camping and the law: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/page.php?id=3791
In reply to Climbygirly:
In the lakes, the National Trust (as a land owner) specify above 450m is fine, as long as you're also out of sight.
The general rule is camp on flat dry ground near a good water source, which is mainly near standing water, and there are amazing camping spots all over Snowdonia.
There are a few places you should avoid because they are either exposed to the elements or very visible from the road or local tourists, notably around Llanberis and Ogwen, but other than that you will never run out of new spots which are sheltered, deserted and beautiful.
Finally, when you go to the loo, make sure it's at least 50m away from the wayer (running or otherwise) - I teach 'carry out solids' because human waste is very damaging to the delicate soil flora, but others choose to bury. If you do this, make sure it's at least a foot down.
Leave nothing but footsteps, take nothing but memories.
In the lakes, the National Trust (as a land owner) specify above 450m is fine, as long as you're also out of sight.
The general rule is camp on flat dry ground near a good water source, which is mainly near standing water, and there are amazing camping spots all over Snowdonia.
There are a few places you should avoid because they are either exposed to the elements or very visible from the road or local tourists, notably around Llanberis and Ogwen, but other than that you will never run out of new spots which are sheltered, deserted and beautiful.
Finally, when you go to the loo, make sure it's at least 50m away from the wayer (running or otherwise) - I teach 'carry out solids' because human waste is very damaging to the delicate soil flora, but others choose to bury. If you do this, make sure it's at least a foot down.
Leave nothing but footsteps, take nothing but memories.
In reply to jezb1:
Cwn Silyn is brilliant - not a hard walk in (about 40 mins from your car), not massively popular so there'll be no queues and there's a good spread of grades there.
> (In reply to melissabunbury) Cloggy would be nice, Cwm Silyn to do Kirkus route?
Cwn Silyn is brilliant - not a hard walk in (about 40 mins from your car), not massively popular so there'll be no queues and there's a good spread of grades there.
In reply to alexgoodey:
I am a tad sceptical that the National Trust in the Lakes state that you may camp 'anywhere out of sight' above 450m.
You have a link for that?
> (In reply to Climbygirly)
> In the lakes, the National Trust (as a land owner) specify above 450m is fine, as long as you're also out of sight.
>
> In the lakes, the National Trust (as a land owner) specify above 450m is fine, as long as you're also out of sight.
>
I am a tad sceptical that the National Trust in the Lakes state that you may camp 'anywhere out of sight' above 450m.
You have a link for that?
Gah, finally.. for some reason I've been unable to post on this thread for ages
It's not an official policy, more like guidelines, in the spirit of the pirate code, if you catch my drift - i.e. they'll turn a blind eye as long as you're responsible, above 450m, leave no trace, etc.
They won't put it down in writing publicly because they don't want the lovely countryside littered with clueless chancers who will leave lots of trash and ruin it for those of use who naturally resonate at the same frequency as nature.
It's not an official policy, more like guidelines, in the spirit of the pirate code, if you catch my drift - i.e. they'll turn a blind eye as long as you're responsible, above 450m, leave no trace, etc.
They won't put it down in writing publicly because they don't want the lovely countryside littered with clueless chancers who will leave lots of trash and ruin it for those of use who naturally resonate at the same frequency as nature.
In reply to alexgoodey:
Thats a very bold statement to make if you cant actually back it up though?
Do you have some inside info or something.
Thats a very bold statement to make if you cant actually back it up though?
Do you have some inside info or something.
In reply to Welsh Kate:
> (In reply to Run_Ross_Run)
>
> No it's not correct; wildcamping is illegal in England and Wales (with the exception of Dartmoor) but it's a civil offence not a criminal one.
Well that's news to the DNPA! >
> No it's not correct; wildcamping is illegal in England and Wales (with the exception of Dartmoor) but it's a civil offence not a criminal one.
In reply to alexgoodey: I don't think they will.. it depends where but certainly around cwm idwal in the NT areas, SSSI etc I think they will police it.
Generally most areas are fine, just don't take the piss.. camp late leave early.. be discreet..
Generally most areas are fine, just don't take the piss.. camp late leave early.. be discreet..
OK, so in summary - wild camping is ok if you have the landowners permission.
You should be responsible:
Arm yourself with the facts about the areas in which you want to stay -
Do your best to identify the landowner
Avoid areas which have legally protected status (there are two dozen of these statuses and all are mapped on the DEFRA website)
Leave no trace
Camp out of sight
Protect the environment, especially the water, from your waste (toilets at least 50m from water)
Don't publicise spots where you've wild-camped
As pointed out, wild camping is a trespass and a civil offence. So, if you are challenged by the landowner, then you are obliged to move on.
If you are on water board (or local water authority), MoD (Army/Navy/RAF) or Railway property - in these cases it is a CRIMINAL offense and you will be arrested and prosecuted if caught.
You should be responsible:
Arm yourself with the facts about the areas in which you want to stay -
Do your best to identify the landowner
Avoid areas which have legally protected status (there are two dozen of these statuses and all are mapped on the DEFRA website)
Leave no trace
Camp out of sight
Protect the environment, especially the water, from your waste (toilets at least 50m from water)
Don't publicise spots where you've wild-camped
As pointed out, wild camping is a trespass and a civil offence. So, if you are challenged by the landowner, then you are obliged to move on.
If you are on water board (or local water authority), MoD (Army/Navy/RAF) or Railway property - in these cases it is a CRIMINAL offense and you will be arrested and prosecuted if caught.
In reply to alexgoodey:
>
Now that is extremely interesting. What is the status of the Fells around Haweswater and Thirlmere, I would not be at all surprised if these belonged to United Utilities.
>
>
> If you are on water board (or local water authority), in these cases it is a CRIMINAL offense and you will be arrested and prosecuted if caught.
> If you are on water board (or local water authority), in these cases it is a CRIMINAL offense and you will be arrested and prosecuted if caught.
Now that is extremely interesting. What is the status of the Fells around Haweswater and Thirlmere, I would not be at all surprised if these belonged to United Utilities.
In reply to alexgoodey: even if CroW land? Never knew that..
In reply to alexgoodey:
Do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything.
> If you are on water board (or local water authority) ... property - in these cases it is a CRIMINAL offense and you will be arrested and prosecuted if caught.
Do you have a reference for this? I can't find anything.
In reply to Sean Kelly:
err why, it is legal on Dartmoor within (or outside, ie Holne) certain perameters.
DNPA website acknowledges this last time I looked.
> (In reply to Welsh Kate)
> [...]
> Well that's news to the DNPA!
> [...]
> Well that's news to the DNPA!
err why, it is legal on Dartmoor within (or outside, ie Holne) certain perameters.
DNPA website acknowledges this last time I looked.
In reply to Wainers44: I actually hear a DNP official state that last week!
In reply to Sean Kelly: DNP have a downloadable map on their website colouring the land you may legally camp on for up to 2 nights... most is far from roads and habitation and also out of bounds when MOD are firing.
In reply to JIMBO: Wow.. very forward thinking and progressive.. nice to see. Tbf to Sean if its anything like Snowdonia.. wardens do speak with authority.. when they have no authority.. they'll speak like they are the voice of the park, when it is just their view..
In reply to IainRUK: I can maybe understand differing attitudes across the uk though. Lakes "wild" camping 6ft from the back of the car at Walna Scar...or Little Langdale? Not that wild really and why does each spot come with a pre -scortched bbq square and a rock propped 6in off the ground by the liitter stuffed under it? How quaint!
Been here in Chamonix for the last 4 days and the signs make it clear that camping is only allowed where its allowed!! Pressure of visitor numbers on a really fragile environment I suppose.
Been here in Chamonix for the last 4 days and the signs make it clear that camping is only allowed where its allowed!! Pressure of visitor numbers on a really fragile environment I suppose.
In reply to Wainers44: Aye.. we saw the same in Wales.. tents in the pass.. even caravans in the layby.. which ended up in the river.. just takes the piss.. its hardly difficult to wild camp.. just don't take the piss.
In reply to alexgoodey:
http://www.tourisminsights.info/ONLINEPUB/NATIONAL%20TRUST/REPORT/NATIONAL%...
Page 7, second item.
"There is a presumption against camping on non-recognised sites without permission. This presumption is waived in certain circumstances and areas, eg in the Lake District in upland areas above 450 metres out of sight of the public highway, to allow the wilderness experience to be enjoyed."
However, the National Trust only owns 1/4 of the Lake District. No idea how you find out if a particular section is owned by them or not, short of walking there.
That said, if you're above 450m, who exactly is going to come and do anything about it?
> Gah, finally.. for some reason I've been unable to post on this thread for ages
>
> It's not an official policy, more like guidelines, in the spirit of the pirate code, if you catch my drift - i.e. they'll turn a blind eye as long as you're responsible, above 450m, leave no trace, etc.
>
> They won't put it down in writing publicly because they don't want the lovely countryside littered with clueless chancers who will leave lots of trash and ruin it for those of use who naturally resonate at the same frequency as nature.
It IS in writing.>
> It's not an official policy, more like guidelines, in the spirit of the pirate code, if you catch my drift - i.e. they'll turn a blind eye as long as you're responsible, above 450m, leave no trace, etc.
>
> They won't put it down in writing publicly because they don't want the lovely countryside littered with clueless chancers who will leave lots of trash and ruin it for those of use who naturally resonate at the same frequency as nature.
http://www.tourisminsights.info/ONLINEPUB/NATIONAL%20TRUST/REPORT/NATIONAL%...
Page 7, second item.
"There is a presumption against camping on non-recognised sites without permission. This presumption is waived in certain circumstances and areas, eg in the Lake District in upland areas above 450 metres out of sight of the public highway, to allow the wilderness experience to be enjoyed."
However, the National Trust only owns 1/4 of the Lake District. No idea how you find out if a particular section is owned by them or not, short of walking there.
That said, if you're above 450m, who exactly is going to come and do anything about it?
Regarding criminal trespass and (CRoW Act) access land, each law that applies (and was updated subsequent to CRoW) such as PACE, SOCA, etc, was updated to exclude crow applicability.
That means that even if the land is open access, if the military, water board (considered important to national security), registered nuclear sites (I excluded from my original list) or railway... choose to do bad things to you, they can probably try. One good example is Salisbury Plain, which is largely open access - but if the flags are flying then don't go in because they will shoot you first and ask questions later!
There are three main defences to either civil or criminal trespass and they are as follows:
1. Necessity: In order to assume the defence of necessity there must be an actual or reasonably perceived danger in relation to the course of action taken by the ‘trespasser’. A common example is if one person swings their car in order to avoid a crash and ends up on somebody else’s land. In theory they are trespassing as they are making a direct and unjustifiable interference with the land; they may also not have been in danger from the oncoming vehicle. However, there was certainly a perceived danger and so there will be no trespass. (However, it may be that if they caused damage there will be a different type of claim.)
In the context of rambling / camping, a reasonable defense would be to say the path was blocked / I got lost / it was the safe way out of the swamp / a storm blew in. There are plenty of examples in law of this as a reasonable defense where cases are dismissed out of hand.
2. Licence: If you invite somebody onto your land then you have given them an implied licence and they are not therefore a trespasser. There are certain times when you will have given someone permission to enter your land, but only a certain part of it, and for a certain reason. Therefore, in these cases a claim for trespass is still possible. For example, landowner says you can walk across field x but not field y, so if you go into field y then he can prosecute. Likewise, if he said you could camp in field 5 but not field 4 and you ignore him, again he can have you... so to speak.
3. Legal justification: A clear example of legal justification is when a police officer enters your land under an appropriate warrant. It is quite clear that certain emergency services should be allowed onto your land to carry out activities which are in the public good. Likewise, if a lost walker was having a heart attack and you went to help, it's unlikely the landowner would take you to court...
Rights of way and land law is the most complex area of law in which more than 200 statutes apply, if you ever suffer from insomnia, I heartily recommend buying a copy of The Blue Book - the trade (public rights of way department of your local council) bible on these matters.
That means that even if the land is open access, if the military, water board (considered important to national security), registered nuclear sites (I excluded from my original list) or railway... choose to do bad things to you, they can probably try. One good example is Salisbury Plain, which is largely open access - but if the flags are flying then don't go in because they will shoot you first and ask questions later!
There are three main defences to either civil or criminal trespass and they are as follows:
1. Necessity: In order to assume the defence of necessity there must be an actual or reasonably perceived danger in relation to the course of action taken by the ‘trespasser’. A common example is if one person swings their car in order to avoid a crash and ends up on somebody else’s land. In theory they are trespassing as they are making a direct and unjustifiable interference with the land; they may also not have been in danger from the oncoming vehicle. However, there was certainly a perceived danger and so there will be no trespass. (However, it may be that if they caused damage there will be a different type of claim.)
In the context of rambling / camping, a reasonable defense would be to say the path was blocked / I got lost / it was the safe way out of the swamp / a storm blew in. There are plenty of examples in law of this as a reasonable defense where cases are dismissed out of hand.
2. Licence: If you invite somebody onto your land then you have given them an implied licence and they are not therefore a trespasser. There are certain times when you will have given someone permission to enter your land, but only a certain part of it, and for a certain reason. Therefore, in these cases a claim for trespass is still possible. For example, landowner says you can walk across field x but not field y, so if you go into field y then he can prosecute. Likewise, if he said you could camp in field 5 but not field 4 and you ignore him, again he can have you... so to speak.
3. Legal justification: A clear example of legal justification is when a police officer enters your land under an appropriate warrant. It is quite clear that certain emergency services should be allowed onto your land to carry out activities which are in the public good. Likewise, if a lost walker was having a heart attack and you went to help, it's unlikely the landowner would take you to court...
Rights of way and land law is the most complex area of law in which more than 200 statutes apply, if you ever suffer from insomnia, I heartily recommend buying a copy of The Blue Book - the trade (public rights of way department of your local council) bible on these matters.
In reply to Climbygirly:
When I last enquired about wild camping in Snowdonia it was definitely frowned upon.
The lakes tolerate it.
CRoW act is only applicable to walking, not camping or fires.
Trespass is civil offence, unless you refuse to leave when asked, in which case I think it becomes 'aggravated trespass' which is criminal.
Best option is do it subtly. If you do it right, it doesn't need to be legal, cos no one will know you did it!
When I last enquired about wild camping in Snowdonia it was definitely frowned upon.
The lakes tolerate it.
CRoW act is only applicable to walking, not camping or fires.
Trespass is civil offence, unless you refuse to leave when asked, in which case I think it becomes 'aggravated trespass' which is criminal.
Best option is do it subtly. If you do it right, it doesn't need to be legal, cos no one will know you did it!
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