UKC

Peak climbing partners E4 - E5

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 RoryM 20 Nov 2021

Hi there, 

Looking for regular climbing partners around The Peak District.  Ideally with the purpose of working some more E4's and E5's this winter, though I'm happy to do a bit of bouldering too. 

Interested?  

Get in touch. 

Rory

 Andy Peak 1 21 Nov 2021
In reply to RoryM:

I’d be keen when I get back from my holidays at the end of November. 

 RoryM 22 Nov 2021
In reply to Andy Peak 1:

Cheers Andy, 

You can get me on 07709830375

Rory

 climb the peak 23 Nov 2021
In reply to RoryM:

Hey Rory, I'd be well up for this,

Alex

 SteveJC94 21:52 Sat
In reply to RoryM:

Hi Rory,

Keen to get out as much as possible, got a few E5s I'm trying to headpoint this season. Give us a shout when you're next free (07914 691494). 

Steve 

 UKB Shark 23:51 Sat
In reply to RoryM:

Is working E4/5 a thing? Have you run out of E2’s and E3’s to try? Seems to be worrying trend.

Bring on the dislikes….

35
In reply to UKB Shark:

Ok, I'll bite. What exactly are you worried about?

1
In reply to Suncream:

> Ok, I'll bite. What exactly are you worried about?

Possibly the case that if you want a physical challenge,  a quality route, a dangerous route or a safe route - then all that can be found by onsighting E2/3? 

If you want to make an E5 feel like an 'E1 onsight', headpoint.

12
In reply to Shani:

Sure, if that's how you want to climb. But why is other people headpointing E5 a worrying trend? It doesn't affect you.

There was a whole thread about this recently, with discussion of the minor points of wearing out the route and placements.

This bizarre snobby judgement of other people's climbing style when someone is just looking for partners is not helpful.

4
In reply to Suncream:

> Sure, if that's how you want to climb. But why is other people headpointing E5 a worrying trend? It doesn't affect you.

I'm not judging. I've top roped E5, but when i climbed it, it was E1.

"Headpointing E5" doesn't exist. Let's not convince ourselves otherwise.

38
 JIMBO 12:26 Sun
In reply to Shani:

> I'm not judging. I've top roped E5, but when i climbed it, it was E1.

Best tell Gresham he's only climbed E6 when he did Equilibrium! 🤣

2
In reply to Shani:

> I'm not judging. I've top roped E5, but when i climbed it, it was E1.

Really? I don't have much experience of E5 but I can't imagine any E5 route that would be technically, physical or mentally close to E1 even after top rope otherwise people would be doing them all the time. If you had said E3 perhaps you would sound sound more credible. Which route did you do?

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> Really? I don't have much experience of E5 but I can't imagine any E5 route that would be technically, physical or mentally close to E1 even after top rope otherwise people would be doing them all the time. If you had said E3 perhaps you would sound sound more credible. Which route did you do?

Yeah, maybe a bit more than E1 - an example would be Pebble Mill (E5 6a) - flashed on a TR, repeated a couple more times then led. All mystery and much of the mental challenge removed. Definitely easier than leading Desperation onsight (E1 6a).

Post edited at 13:05
In reply to Shani:

Maybe you are just shit at jamming Don't think I've ever done a E1 let alone a E2 with moves as hard as the start of Pepper Mill, and I tried that ground up with pads (which it isn't graded for) and gave up. I'm not amazing at slabs but the bottom is not that easy (font 6b?), high, and unprotected climbing were a fall could land you in a variety of locations don't think it is really comparable with any E1.

Quietus by companion, the bit most people struggle the roof, is supper well protected with a clean fall zone.

Post edited at 13:08
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> Maybe you are just shit at jamming Don't think I've ever done a E1 let alone a E2 with moves as hard as the start of Pepper Mill, and I tried that ground up with pads (which it isn't graded for) and gave up. I'm not amazing at slabs but the bottom is not that easy (font 6b?), high, and unprotected climbing were a fall could land you in a variety of locations don't think it is really comparable with any E1.

It's likely I'm shit at jamming because I'm a shit climber (too heavy, weak & scared, with no stamina). Let's meet up in the new year and do Pebble Mill. I genuinely think i could get it on a TR in a session even now!

Apologies: my edit has disjointed your response,  but point taken. 👍

Post edited at 13:09
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I haven’t done any E3,s with moves as hard as the lower wall of Pebble Mill, which I progressively climbed up and down until eventually I was committed, with luckily a positive result. Didn’t work on Narcissus though, falling from the last hard move, before pads. Ouch, but no permanent damage and did it next time. However I always tried to onsight protectable E5/6. If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5, I,d have thought it possible to solo Quietus.

In reply to Philb1950:

> If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5, I,d have thought it possible to solo Quietus.

You been experimenting with your meds?

4
In reply to Philb1950:

> If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5, I,d have thought it possible to solo Quietus.

Hahahahahahah!!!!

 UKB Shark 20:32 Sun
In reply to Suncream:

> Ok, I'll bite. What exactly are you worried about?

Looking for a partner specifically to clinically work routes of a grade that was regularly onsighted or done ground up 30+ years ago sounds like the opposite of progress - whatever the word for that is. Is this the new normal? Hope not

27
 Fellover 11:11 Mon
In reply to deacondeacon:

>> If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5, I,d have thought it possible to solo Quietus.

> Hahahahahahah!!!!

This doesn't seem that ridiculous to me. Quietus is E2 5c, unprotected (i.e. soloing) 5c at the height of the Quietus roof would be about E5 5c no? Obviously some people like soloing and others don't, so it's not necessarily true that someone who can climb well protected E5 6b, would also want to climb E5 5c or solo 5c moves in general, but it's the right sort of ballpark.

6
 Fellover 11:19 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Looking for a partner specifically to clinically work routes of a grade that was regularly onsighted or done ground up 30+ years ago sounds like the opposite of progress - whatever the word for that is. Is this the new normal? Hope not

As much as I like onsighting (I've never headpointed anything, just ground up or give up, maybe do the moves on a top rope while getting the gear back), climbing doesn't have to be about unstoppable progress, especially for your normal punter. If people want to go out and have fun headpointing then that's fine and imo shouldn't draw criticism.

1
 Fellover 11:23 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

I should add that really I agree with your sentiment, I wish people would onsight stuff not headpoint stuff. However, it's a bit like saying people shouldn't play 20-20 cricket because I prefer test match cricket - lots of (older?) cricket fans do think like that a bit, but it's obviously not very reasonable!

 UKB Shark 11:53 Mon
In reply to Fellover:

Yes people can do what they want. I just think it’s a bit sad and they are missing something if this is the new normal. Is working E4’s and E5’s commonplace now in favour of onsighting E2’s and E3’s? I’m a bit of the loop with trad climbing but aiming to return to it. 

13
In reply to Fellover:

> This doesn't seem that ridiculous to me. 

I'm really surprised at that. I probably know about 50 E5 climbers but I'd struggle to think of anyone who would solo Quietus on a day's climbing (yes, if they were being chased by a tiger they'd get up the thing and live to tell the tale, but I doubt they'd be smiling 🙂).

There are E2s that are great for soloing and will be on many E5 leaders circuit, but Quietus isn't one of them!

In reply to UKB Shark:

> Yes people can do what they want. I just think it’s a bit sad and they are missing something if this is the new normal. Is working E4’s and E5’s commonplace now in favour of onsighting E2’s and E3’s? I’m a bit of the loop with trad climbing but aiming to return to it. 

I know it's not new and I know it's not either or.

A lot of climbers leading E2 20 years ago had a go at head pointing E5/4 off the back of the popularity of Hard Grit. This was as well as on sighting on other days. It's not much different to bouldering..... having a few tries at something more technical than you would normally climb.

Generally, there are older climbers who hark back to a purist 'golden age', but there are also older climbers who tell me it's bullshit.... and I know who I believe.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I have soloed it along with others I know and it was not the hardest solo we did that day.

2
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Looking for a partner specifically to clinically work routes of a grade that was regularly onsighted or done ground up 30+ years ago sounds like the opposite of progress - whatever the word for that is. Is this the new normal? Hope not

This sounds a lot like a day's sport climbing!

In reply to Philb1950:

I've soloed E5 and onsight flashed Quietus at the sharp end. The thought of soloing that lip of Quietus....no way.

In reply to Theo Moore - UKC and UKH:

> This sounds a lot like a day's sport climbing!

Something I had been thinking about yesterday, F7a is apparently the equitant in difficulty to many mid grade E5. Almost every time I've been sport climbing I see people heavily working this grade and this seems accepted practice.  Often they look like they are not even close flailing around yet on the grit I rarely see people working E5 or if they are they are not dogging the roof to death in the same way. Would be interesting to hear what people think about this.

Post edited at 12:59
 PaulJepson 13:21 Mon
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Well there are probably 10 sport climbers to every trad climber and I'd imagine 100 sport climbers working 7a to every trad climber operating at E5. With a little bit of wall fitness you can easily beat 7a sport into submission. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

I'd wager there are even more boulderers who could flash the crux on 90% or more of E5s. But they simply don't have the required mental fortitude to operate at the sharp end of a rope.

That's not a criticism, its just to say that climbing walls and fingerboards have got us incredibly strong over the past 30 years, whilst doing little for the mental demands of (onsight) trad.

 UKB Shark 13:47 Mon
In reply to Theo Moore - UKC and UKH:

> This sounds a lot like a day's sport climbing!

Quite!

 SamSimpson 14:06 Mon
In reply to RoryM:

Hey Rory. Nice one,I am always keen to get out and work on some routes with you 👍 there is a friendly bunch of us who get out as much as we can and always up for pottering out trying not to get too cold.  

Cheers 

Sam

In reply to deacondeacon:

> yes, if they were being chased by a tiger they'd get up the thing and live to tell the tale, but I doubt they'd be smiling 🙂

Especially not if the tiger’s walked around the side to meet them at the top

 Fellover 14:31 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Yes people can do what they want.

Great

> I just think it’s a bit sad and they are missing something if this is the new normal.

Yes, I agree. I don't think it is the new normal though, I think it's just a small part of the new normal.

> Is working E4’s and E5’s commonplace now in favour of onsighting E2’s and E3’s? I’m a bit of the loop with trad climbing but aiming to return to it. 

I think for most people who headpoint it's a mixture, which is probably 'healthier' than my 'no headpointing for me' attitude. 90% of my climbing partners haven't headpointed anything (they may have lead something they've seconded a year or two ago, but not headpointed in the sense of worked something repeatedly on toprope with a view to a lead), they're all in their 20s and most are primarily trad climbers, so you can rest assured that among some youngish people, trad onsighting is still very popular.

I know one of the people who replied to this post saying they'd be keen to go out with the OP, they do lots of trad onsighting, some alpinism, some big wall, plenty of bouldering and sport climbing, now it seems like they want to try a bit of headpointing as well. Seems perfectly legit to me and telling them to go and onsight more E1-E3 (of which they've done many) rather than headpoint some E4/5 seems a bit ridiculous.

I think that most people who are headpointing are proabably people who've done lots of onsighting before and will do in the future, they're just trying something new and fun. I don't think that people are going out during their first year of trad climbing and headpointing every session.

In reply to UKB Shark:

People regularly climb ground up rather than onsight on routes which were once onsighted 30+ years ago. Is it the fact that people are doing routes in poorer style than previous generations that is the issue you have?

 Fellover 14:42 Mon
In reply to deacondeacon:

> I'm really surprised at that. I probably know about 50 E5 climbers but I'd struggle to think of anyone who would solo Quietus on a day's climbing (yes, if they were being chased by a tiger they'd get up the thing and live to tell the tale, but I doubt they'd be smiling 🙂).

Fair enough. I set off up Quietus OS solo a couple of years ago and I don't climb >E5 on the grit (or indeed anywhere), I got to the jams and after a little faffing decided I'd rather come down, so I did. It didn't feel particularly outrageous and I'll probably have another look if I'm up at high neb on a nice quiet day by myself again. Obviously some people like soloing and some don't, so a fairer statement would probably be "If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5 and like soloing lower grade routes, I'd have thought it possible to solo Quietus.".

5
 Fellover 14:45 Mon
In reply to shaunhumphreys:

Tbf if you're ground upping something there was presumably an onsight/flash attempt at the start of the ground up attempts, the fact you didn't onsight/flash is just because you weren't good enough, not really because of an 'ethical' or style choice. Which is quite different to choosing to headpoint something.

1
In reply to Fellover:

> Fair enough. I set off up Quietus OS solo a couple of years ago and I don't climb >E5 on the grit (or indeed anywhere), I got to the jams and after a little faffing decided I'd rather come down, so I did. It didn't feel particularly outrageous and I'll probably have another look if I'm up at high neb on a nice quiet day by myself again. Obviously some people like soloing and some don't, so a fairer statement would probably be "If you’re genuinely knocking on the door of E5 and like soloing lower grade routes, I'd have thought it possible to solo Quietus.".

I don't really want to doubt you but this is either bullshit, you've a deathwish, or you're insane. Quietus actually has a body count of at least '1'. The crux is sorting the jams coming out of the roof. It's suggested grade has been as high as E3 6a.

I could name 20 other routes of E2 and E5 I'd solo before chosing to solo Quietus. 

Post edited at 15:11
 UKB Shark 15:25 Mon
In reply to shaunhumphreys:

> People regularly climb ground up rather than onsight on routes which were once onsighted 30+ years ago. Is it the fact that people are doing routes in poorer style than previous generations that is the issue you have?

Yes - you’d expect that there would be progress ie generally harder routes done in generally better style not just at the elite end but for the climbing population in general.

Ground up is typically a default option because of a failed onsight so I don’t think there is any generational difference there unless I am missing something. 

1
In reply to Shani:

Exactly! The thought of reversing from the jams is the stuff of nightmares lol

In reply to deacondeacon:

I've seen it done off double finger jams (hard) and a guy on film doing it in a much simpler way using a heel hook, jam/lay-away and left hand press.

But once out on that lip there's little time to faff around checking your options. It's a long way up.

In reply to Shani:

Put your knee on the lip and progress the jams bit by bit. Not too bad.

 Fellover 15:55 Mon
In reply to Shani:

> I don't really want to doubt you but this is either bullshit, you've a deathwish, or you're insane.

Haha, well this is a first for me. I've never been called out on the internet before, how exciting. I don't think what I wrote is that unbelievable is it? I went up to have a look, wasn't comfortable with soloing it at the time so came back down. Surely you'd agree that getting out to the jugs on the lip is relatively easy - VS-E1ish something like that? I tried to get comfortable in the crack/jams and didn't - I can't remember if I even ever took both hands off the jugs at the lip. Now, I really can't prove this atall, there wasn't anyone else up there bar a few walkers. I don't think I've got a deathwish (or had at the time), if I had a deathwish I'd have kept going, not come back down when I decided I wasn't comfortable with continuing. As for insane, well I don't think I am, but I daresay a reasonable number of insane people don't think they are.

> Quietus actually has a body count of at least '1'. The crux is sorting the jams coming out of the roof. It's suggested grade has been as high as E3 6a.

Yes, I've been informed that before on here. Obviously very sad.

> I could name 20 other routes of E2 and E5 I'd solo before chosing to solo Quietus.

Good for you I was at high neb having a nice time soloing around and thought I'd have a look - I had fun.

In reply to Fellover:

> Haha, well this is a first for me. I've never been called out on the internet before, how exciting.

Apologies if I came across as rude or abrupt but i stand by my point (and meant it with the best of intentions!). Tackling a benchmark testpiece grit E2 roof, OS solo, when your limit at climbing is E5, does seem a wild decision!

I'm glad you got down safely.  If you want a belayer on it in 2022 DM me. There's really no need to solo it and there's better E5s to try!

In reply to UKB Shark:

> Yes - you’d expect that there would be progress ie generally harder routes done in generally better style not just at the elite end but for the climbing population in general.

I think this statement is probably true anyway, but for a lot of people climbing is not about comparing yourself to others at arbitrary points in history but just heading out and climbing for themselves and their own enjoyment and sharing it with their mates. I can understand why progression feels important, but progression against yourself is what feels fulfilling. So if someone who has been climbing for less than a year but is super psyched and decides they want to headpoint an E5 and pull it off then fair play thats pretty impressive based on their own personal climbing history.    

> Ground up is typically a default option because of a failed onsight so I don’t think there is any generational difference there unless I am missing something. 

I guess there is more of a trend towards the ground up siege where there is a very low chance of achieving an onsight, over a headpoint of a route. I think the debate on which is more "Ethical" has been discussed elsewhere though.

 Fellover 16:40 Mon
In reply to Shani:

> Apologies if I came across as rude or abrupt but i stand by my point (and meant it with the best of intentions!). Tackling a benchmark testpiece grit E2 roof, OS solo, when your limit at climbing is E5, does seem a wild decision!

Well I suppose this is the crux of the matter isn't it, Philb1950 and I think that it's not that unreasonable and you and deacondeacon think it's wild. I mean it is a bit wild, it's clearly a bit of a wild route in any style of ascent. I just didn't feel it was especially risky if I was happy to downclimb if I wasn't feeling comfortable.

> I'm glad you got down safely.

Thank you, though when I'm soloing I try not to do moves I can't reverse, so I was fairly comfy about getting down.

> If you want a belayer on it in 2022 DM me. There's really no need to solo it and there's better E5s to try!

Thanks for the offer - I should say that I do have plenty of partners who I could have asked to belay me, I just fancied some soloing and when I was there fancied having a look at Quietus. I'm not out there doing 'dangerous' routes solo because I can't find partners.

In reply to Fellover:

In all the replies I might have missed but did you ever go back and complete the route? Just wondering if you didn't, you might change your mind as going to the lip and reaching up to the first jams and reversing is still a world away from my memory of the final gasping final moves in a howling gale, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to reverse there but then I'm not climbing E5 so perhaps it would be more like myself backing off a VS on solo?

Post edited at 16:47
 Fellover 17:02 Mon
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

> In all the replies I might have missed but did you ever go back and complete the route? Just wondering if you didn't, you might change your mind as going to the lip and reaching up to the first jams and reversing is still a world away from my memory of the final gasping final moves in a howling gale,

I haven't been back no - I'm sure you're correct, the route appeared to get harder from where I backed off. I have been back to high neb a couple of times but to do other things. 

> I certainly wouldn't have wanted to reverse there but then I'm not climbing E5 so perhaps it would be more like myself backing off a VS on solo?

Yes, I think that's exactly right. It felt like I did a bit of VS-E1ish climbing, then got to the E2 bit, thought "I don't fancy that" and backed off.

The reason I brought it up in the first place was just because deacondeacon seemed to think that Philb1950's idea of an E5ish leader soloing Quietus was totally ridiculous, whereas I know that I had at least attempted it as a not >E5 leader, so it didn't seem totally ridiculous to me. Perhaps (probably?) if I go back and do the upper section I'll agree, but for me, when all the information I had was the grade, the knowledge that a few friends who's abilities I know had OSd it on lead, the reputation that it involved a bit of tricky jamming (I like jamming) and looking from the ground and the top, it didn't seem totally ridiculous.

Post edited at 17:03
In reply to Fellover:

> Well I suppose this is the crux of the matter isn't it, Philb1950 and I think that it's not that unreasonable and you and deacondeacon think it's wild. I mean it is a bit wild, it's clearly a bit of a wild route in any style of ascent.

Again, I've a number of E5s to my name (Pool Wall, Strapadictomy, Heartless Hair...), but would never consider soloing Quietus OS. It's E2 because it's safe as houses. It's technical grade is hard 5c with a crux at the top. The UKC log tells a tale.

I'd be interested to hear from any other climbers who have nailed a few E5s as to whether they'd have EVER considered an OS solo of Quietus or am I particularly chicken here?

The irony being that the latter theme of this thread is the increase in punter strength over the years, but seemingly without an increase in punter bravery...

 UKB Shark 20:30 Mon
In reply to Shani:

Not me. I’ve yet to summon the courage to solo Flying Buttress Direct

In reply to shaunhumphreys:

> I think this statement is probably true anyway, but for a lot of people climbing is not about comparing yourself to others at arbitrary points in history but just heading out and climbing for themselves and their own enjoyment and sharing it with their mates.

Do you not think that quite a bit of this headpointing that is taking place on apparently ever lower grades is actually driven by a desire for bigger E numbers (even if not by "fair" (ie onsight) means) and therefore actualy probably about comparison with others rather than pure enjoyment?

2
 UKB Shark 21:20 Mon
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Do you not think that quite a bit of this headpointing that is taking place on apparently ever lower grades is actually driven by a desire for bigger E numbers 

Shirley not! 😱

 Kevster 22:14 Mon
In reply to Shani: (not directly at you Shani)

IMO, though getting old, I've never considered soloing. Thats why I use a rope and wasnt ever into street sports. Hard ground hurts! Climbing is supposed to be fun, not Russian roulette. Having scraped a few mates up off the floor, called the air ambulance etc - thats not a fun day out!
Theres nothing heroic or macho about unnecessarily hitting the ground from height. Soloing quietus would be in my view, a very selfish act. 

Yes I've climbed a few riskier routes, spaced runners out more than I probably should at times & got away with it. Mostly within my comfort/ confidence zone. I accept there is risk in climbing.

Surely being a good trad climber is risk management? Obviously perceived & acceptable risk is subjective. 

As for a larger body of climbers improving style/ onsite grade.... I'd suggest the demographic (and location) of climbers has changed substantially over the last few decades. There is now a large body of participants grown indoors & distant from crags, without a trad apprenticeship or significantly better mentor/peers. No surprise there is no direct correlation between number of climbers and trad ability.

If Rory (OP) wants to have a bash at few E5s, maybe with a view to working them, maybe with hope to onsight them - why not? E5 is a very respectable grade - if you save all your ambition routes for the onsight then you possibly miss out on climbing them at all.  

Climb safe, its only something to fill your spare time...

 UKB Shark 22:36 Mon
In reply to Kevster:

> If Rory (OP) wants to have a bash at few E5s, maybe with a view to working them, maybe with hope to onsight them - why not? 

Eh? He’ll already have screwed up his opportunity to onsight them by doing that

1
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Eh? He’ll already have screwed up his opportunity to onsight them by doing that.

This is an important point!

In reply to Robert Durran:

> Do you not think that quite a bit of this headpointing that is taking place on apparently ever lower grades is actually driven by a desire for bigger E numbers (even if not by "fair" (ie onsight) means) and therefore actualy probably about comparison with others rather than pure enjoyment?

Yeah that’s true people can be driven by that in a healthy or unhealthy way. I’m sure most people like to be validated in some way for their achievements. Obviously people trying to get validation from others comes in many forms.

I guess this could also read..

Do you not think that quite a bit of this headpointing that is taking place on is actually driven by a desire for bigger E numbers (even if not by "fair" (ie onsight) means) and therefore actualy probably about comparison with others rather than pure enjoyment?

Since climbers of all abilities can be driven in that way. So is the issue more with people climbing in a headpoint style trying to claim (to whoever is interested) that it’s of more value than it actually is? And get some undeserved “street cred” off others? Rather than if someone was heapointing one for purer reasons?

 Rob Parsons 23:10 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Yes people can do what they want. I just think it’s a bit sad and they are missing something if this is the new normal. Is working E4’s and E5’s commonplace now in favour of onsighting E2’s and E3’s? I’m a bit of the loop with trad climbing but aiming to return to it. 

There is nothing at all new about people top-roping routes above their normal lead grades - which is after all what the sanctified term 'head-pointing' means.

1
 UKB Shark 23:23 Mon
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> There is nothing at all new about people top-roping routes above their normal lead grades - which is after all what the sanctified term 'head-pointing' means.

I’m not sure what point you are making. Top roping is top roping. Headpointing doesn’t mean top roping. The headpoint is the actual lead. 

 Rob Parsons 23:32 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

> I’m not sure what point you are making. Top roping is top roping. Headpointing doesn’t mean top roping. The headpoint is the actual lead. 

I'll rephrase: there is nothing at all new about people practicing routes graded above their normal lead grades on top ropes, and then leading those routes.

Clearer?

 UKB Shark 23:36 Mon
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I’m not contesting that. It’s the level that I find surprising. 

 Rob Parsons 23:43 Mon
In reply to UKB Shark:

> I’m not contesting that. It’s the level that I find surprising. 

At the specific grades mentioned, you mean? If so, nothing new in it: top rope practice has always gone on at all grades.

 UKB Shark 23:58 Mon
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I’m sure it went on but didn’t used to be commonplace in my experience. I can’t recall anyone I knew or seeing anyone at the crag working a route on top rope with a view to headpointing it at anything less than E6 between the mid 80’s and late 90’s when I was regularly trad climbing. 

3
In reply to UKB Shark

Think this might come across more antagonistically than it's intended, but - is your argument/case one of sanctifying trad climbing? 

Obviously you (and many other people/the 'climbing community' at large, etc) have no issue redpointing/attempting to redpoint routes at grades that have have previously been onsighted. In the interest of 'progress', should all repoints/attempted redpoints of Urgent Action be discredited post-Simon Nadin?

If the issue is about respect for the rock - not sure it necessarily is in your case? - then working routes etc probably not so different in terms of polish on limestone when compared with the hallowed grit? Guess pebbles are much harder to repair than holds at the Tor though. 

I've never heard of anyone complaining about someone seiging/working a boulder problem that has previously been flashed. Is it the case that we leave our ethics at home when we go out bouldering? 

Guess I'm just pondering if you think trad/grit should be held to a higher standard.

If your answer is yes, then that is more than fair enough. Though my next question would be; why? 

 UKB Shark 00:17 Tue
In reply to Revenge of the Path:

My view is that the distinct aspect of trad climbing (as opposed to sport climbing) is the adventure/uncertainty element. Headpointing seeks to negate or minimise those elements. It’s not something I’ve been drawn to (maybe I should try) and I could see that at the hardest grades it is the way to go but for routes that have been regularly onsighted or at least done ground up since the 80’s or earlier it seems lame that it’s now a normal thing to do. 

3
 Misha 01:11 Tue
In reply to RoryM:

Climber asks for partners. Bunfight about climbing style ensues, with a tangential discussion about the difficulty of soloing a particular route. Classic UKC Forums…

For what it’s worth, I think it’s fine to do routes on whatever style you like, as long as you’re honest about it. As for Quietus, it’s pretty hard and would be very low on my hypothetical list of E2s to solo.

1
 PaulJepson 08:02 Tue
In reply to UKB Shark:

UKC's logbook average and max grade stats don't discriminate between style of ascent. And we all know that's all that matters. 

In reply to Misha:

> Climber asks for partners. Bunfight about climbing style ensues, with a tangential discussion about the difficulty of soloing a particular route. Classic UKC Forums…

I think thats a bit unfair. I'd wager that a day onsighting Fern Hill, Boot Hill, Five Finger Exercise, and Requiem at Cratcliffe would be way more rewarding than 'headpointing E5'. It'd also  probably be better for you in terms of your progress.

3
 Fellover 09:02 Tue
In reply to Shani:

> I think thats a bit unfair. I'd wager that a day onsighting Fern Hill, Boot Hill, Five Finger Exercise, and Requiem at Cratcliffe would be way more rewarding than 'headpointing E5'.

At last something we can agree on! I had almost this exact experience at Cratcliffe, my partner and I did Savage Messiah, Five Finger Exercise and then Suicide Wall, whilst another team spent all day on (I think) The Long Distance Runnel (E5 6c). I certainly left the crag feeling as though one of the two parties had had a day of what I felt trad climbing was all about and the other had not. Though of course they were very nice and I'm sure they've done all the routes we did before, so fair enough.

Post edited at 09:03
1
 UKB Shark 09:06 Tue
In reply to PaulJepson:

> UKC's logbook average and max grade stats don't discriminate between style of ascent. And we all know that's all that matters. 

Ah - so that’s what driving the trend 💡

UKC is conspiring to use algorithms to systematically erode trad ethics 

3
 Fellover 09:09 Tue
In reply to Misha:

> Climber asks for partners. Bunfight about climbing style ensues, with a tangential discussion about the difficulty of soloing a particular route. Classic UKC Forums…

Yeah, apologies for my part in that OP. If you're still looking for a partner, then I'm Sheffield based, so message me if you're looking to get outside - I'll even try headpointing (sorry Shark).

 UKB Shark 09:13 Tue
In reply to Fellover:

Can I come? 

In reply to Shani:

> I think thats a bit unfair. I'd wager that a day onsighting Fern Hill, Boot Hill, Five Finger Exercise, and Requiem at Cratcliffe would be way more rewarding than 'headpointing E5'. It'd also  probably be better for you in terms of your progress.

For you, maybe, and for me - definitely - but for others it's not quite so easy to say.

As per Misha's sentiment: climb in whatever style you like. This may or may not be a style others like, or the perceived 'gold standard', but if it works for you - and you're having fun - who's to say it's wrong?!

Suncream summarised the situation perfectly when they said "this bizarre snobby judgement of other people's climbing style when someone is just looking for partners is not helpful". 

Overall the response from several posters feels cliquey, unhelpful, and unwelcoming and any future posts along these lines will be moderated accordingly.

Post edited at 09:48
 Fellover 09:50 Tue
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Can I come? 

Haha, of course.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Overall the response from several posters feels cliquey, unhelpful, and unwelcoming and any future posts along these lines will be moderated accordingly.

I'm astonished by this response.

6
 UKB Shark 10:14 Tue
In reply to Shani:

It’s all part of the conspiracy 🤫

3
In reply to Shani:

> I think thats a bit unfair. I'd wager that a day onsighting Fern Hill, Boot Hill, Five Finger Exercise, and Requiem at Cratcliffe would be way more rewarding than 'headpointing E5'. It'd also  probably be better for you in terms of your progress.

Totally agree I would find that more rewarding I prefer onsighting however you can't have the same experience over and over again. Therefore at some point if you are at the same crag you might end up doing what the other party were doing, which can be rewarding in a different way and a way to progress (obviously not the only way) or just a way to climb and enjoy something different.

 Fellover 10:37 Tue
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Completely agree.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Overall the response from several posters feels cliquey, unhelpful, and unwelcoming and any future posts along these lines will be moderated accordingly.

Rob, this is an astonishing overreaction. There has been a perfectly good natured discussion. Nobody has been rude. Nobody has been unwelcoming. Nobody has told the OP he is not free to headpoint if he wants to. I would find it a genuinely worrying precedent if you were to censor this thread.

6
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Rob, this is an astonishing overreaction. There has been a perfectly good natured discussion. Nobody has been rude. Nobody has been unwelcoming. Nobody has told the OP he is not free to headpoint if he wants to. I would find it a genuinely worrying precedent if you were to censor this thread.

If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of headpointing there's a separate discussion to be had, and you're more than welcome to have it, but not on this thread.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/at_what_grade_does_headponting_become_acceptable-741322

In reply to Robert Durran:

Perhaps the better thing to do would be to split the thread so that all the discussion is moved to a separate thread?

edit: either a new one or the one Rob listed above while i was typing slowly.

edit 2: although perhaps that is unfair as partners posts auto delete after 90 days if there are no replies where as Rocktalk do not.

Post edited at 11:54
In reply to all:

So. much. ball. swinging. 

you are all super hardcore. well done.

@the OP. Hope you found some partners.

 RoryM 11:55 Tue
In reply to RoryM:

This thread is ridiculous. Started as a request for climbing partners and quickly became a soap box for people who enjoy the sound of their own voices to excersize their ego's.  There was no mention of top roping in the OP, I always prefer to do things ground up. But when there is a real risk of a groundfall or a lack of gear on a route, I may sometimes choose to practice the moves on a top rope to minimise the risk.  When I do want the general public opinion on that, I'll ask them in an appropriate forum. 

For those of you who have replied to the OP, thanks. 

1
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of headpointing there's a separate discussion to be had, and you're more than welcome to have it, but not on this thread.

There is a separate discussion to be had about whether threads should be allowed to go off on tangents (I actually think the way they do is often what can make UKC so wonderful - nothing wrong with several interweaving and overlapping discussions going on at once).

But what worries me here is your mischaracterisation of the discussion and the suggestion that it was unacceptable.

Post edited at 12:00
1
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But what worries me here is your mischaracterisation of the discussion and the suggestion that it was unacceptable.

Read Rory's comment above Rob - does this sound like he's had an enjoyable discussion?!


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