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Left a cam on Little Chamonix

 Beanmanclimb 01 Sep 2020

Stupidly left a no.3 blue Camalot near the straddle belay stance on little Chamonix this afternoon.

if anyone manages to see it and retrieve it, will be more than happy to pay postage or collect in Lake District!
 

thanks

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 JayWhiting 02 Sep 2020
In reply to Beanmanclimb:

hope you manage to retrieve it. Out of interest, I wonder why these sort of posts attract dislikes?

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 Beanmanclimb 02 Sep 2020
In reply to JayWhiting:

Thanks! I wonder too...

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 Natalie998 03 Sep 2020
In reply to Beanmanclimb:

Hi - I found it today!

I’m happy to post it to you. Can you PM me your details (WhatsApp or messenger) and i can arrange to get it back to you. 

Thanks 

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 Webster 03 Sep 2020
In reply to JayWhiting:

cams on a v-diff...?

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 Trangia 03 Sep 2020
In reply to JayWhiting:

> h Out of interest, I wonder why these sort of posts attract dislikes?

Because there are sad small minded people out there who can't be arsed to type a reasoned reply. Stop trying to understand them, and do what I, and others have done, disable the Dislike button. You'll find that you no longer have to take any notice of their immature playground antics , and can enjoy adult discussions.

To the OP, great result from Natalie! That's the positive side of these forums

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 Beanmanclimb 03 Sep 2020
In reply to Beanmanclimb:

very true, can't thank Natalie enough!

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 Beanmanclimb 03 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

hahaha yep

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 DaveHK 04 Sep 2020
In reply to Trangia:

> Because there are sad small minded people out there who can't be arsed to type a reasoned reply. Stop trying to understand them, and do what I, and others have done, disable the Dislike button. You'll find that you no longer have to take any notice of their immature playground antics , and can enjoy adult discussions.

> To the OP, great result from Natalie! That's the positive side of these forums

Obviously you've got the likes and dislikes turned off so this is just to let you know that I disliked your comment above. Have a nice day.

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 Monkeydoo 05 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

Comments about people's choice of gear ...?

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 mcdougal 05 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

Aren't you allowed cams on vdiffs then? How should I log all my vdiff insights where I used cams? 

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 cp123 05 Sep 2020
In reply to JayWhiting:

This topic surfaces about once every 2 months.

The counter argument is that people should be responsible for their belongings and abandoning equipment, normally in the case of stuck gear or 'we would have got it, but it was dark/cold/wet aka we couldn't be bothered' is littering and is similar to the antics of 'fly campers'. Kit abandoned means you no longer have any right over its ownership and as such 'finders keepers' or crag swag rules apply.

I think it is important to note the difference between the above, and genuinely forgetting kit which most people have a lot of sympathy for. I personally think this is what the lost and found forum should be used for and not as free gear retrieval service. I imagine the dislikers (but in this case it isn't clear if it was abandoned or forgotten) are disliking for.

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 JayWhiting 05 Sep 2020
In reply to cp123:

Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing and agreed re the abondonment point.

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 Beanmanclimb 05 Sep 2020
In reply to cp123:

I took my girlfriend up little Chamonix as her first multi pitch and she couldn't get the cam out.

Good points above however if someone wanted to keep it the cam they could (or they don't use UKC). Rather than just leave it, it's obviously worth trying to get it back by posting here, which is one of the better things about UKC forums compared to every grumpy man argument thread which is what this one is turning in to.

Thanks a lot Natalie and Nick who have been super helpful with everything.

Post edited at 12:18
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 Jamie Wakeham 05 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

Are you allowed cams if you do it in roller skates, though?

That final stance is a tad exposed and there aren't that many options for anchors; I always use a small blue cam there!

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 C Witter 05 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

> cams on a v-diff...?


What sort of large gear should one use to cover hand-crack size up? You're not seriously suggesting... * gulp * hexes?!

Or... is this like golf, now, and if you're on a VDiff you have to apply a "handicap", e.g. the weight of three medium - large hexes for every grade you have in hand?

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 mbh 05 Sep 2020
In reply to cp123:

> This topic surfaces about once every 2 months.

> The counter argument is that people should be responsible for their belongings and abandoning equipment, normally in the case of stuck gear or 'we would have got it, but it was dark/cold/wet aka we couldn't be bothered' is littering and is similar to the antics of 'fly campers'. Kit abandoned means you no longer have any right over its ownership and as such 'finders keepers' or crag swag rules apply.

> I think it is important to note the difference between the above, and genuinely forgetting kit which most people have a lot of sympathy for. I personally think this is what the lost and found forum should be used for and not as free gear retrieval service. I imagine the dislikers (but in this case it isn't clear if it was abandoned or forgotten) are disliking for.

phhhphhhhhhh! Finder-keepers, crag-swag be damned. Nice people try to give things back to those to whom they belong. No-one leaves expensive kit on the hill on purpose. It's really not hard, whether in the street where you might take a wallet to the police station, in the supermarket where you would run after someone or hand the wallet or phone you had found to the desk at the front, or at the crag, these days, as Natalie and Beanmanclimb have so warmingly demonstrated, to give back to someone what is theirs and not yours. 

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 cp123 05 Sep 2020
In reply to mbh:

Yep and like I said, there is a big difference between having forgotten something, maybe a racking crab with nuts or a guidebook at the base of a crag - like the wallet analogy you used, and abandoning something because you had more pressing issues (like avoiding rain or being benighted) and so didn't want to expend the time and effort retrieving it.  This is said as someone who has spend many an hour fighting to get one of my or my partner's nuts or cams out including hanging on an ab rope for 30 mins at a time.

Do you feel the same sympathy and try and return abandoned tents to the fly campers who have made the press recently? After all, nice people try and give things back to those to whom they belong? And if not, why the double standard?

And when it does happen, in the case above, that's great, but I also wouldn't expect it, as often seems to be the case in these types of post.

Post edited at 21:26
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 Beanmanclimb 05 Sep 2020
In reply to cp123:

go to bed

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 NIGBEE 06 Sep 2020
In reply to cp123:

'Crag swag'  try looking up the definition of swag.

You are kidding yourself if you think its ok to just keep stuff and make no attempt to actually return it to its owners. 

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 DaveHK 06 Sep 2020
In reply to NIGBEE:

> 'Crag swag'  try looking up the definition of swag

> You are kidding yourself if you think its ok to just keep stuff and make no attempt to actually return it to its owners. 

Crag swag has some very clear and widely understood (if largely unwritten rules*) and has been part of climbing culture since time immemorial. It's a bit of fun, and some people should stop being so po-faced about it.

*Very simply it's any protection left behind because someone lacked the skill or inclination to retrieve it. Anything outwith that and you make the effort to return it, within that definition it's mines, mines I tells ye!

Post edited at 07:47
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 NIGBEE 06 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

I have been climbing for long enough to know about the 'rules' of crag swag and 30 years ago there was very little way of trying to return peoples property although I can remember the odd personal ad in some of the climbing magazines but with the internet and sites like this I think some attempt should be made and if you see a post about a bit if gear that you have 'acquired' then a nice person  would give it back.

Its the people that come on here talking about it as though its written in law that annoy me. What if you got your car stuck in snow or mud and hadn't got the skill or equipment to retrieve it is it ok for me to just take it as I am obviously superior to you?

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 DaveHK 06 Sep 2020
In reply to NIGBEE:

> What if you got your car stuck in snow or mud and hadn't got the skill or equipment to retrieve it is it ok for me to just take it as I am obviously superior to you?

> I have been climbing for long enough to know about the 'rules' of crag swag

You clearly don't understand the rules if you think a stuck car is a valid analogy for crag swag! Anything left as a result of an accident is not crag swag, high value items are not swag, a car is not a piece of climbing protection, someone is clearly coming back for the car...etc etc.

Post edited at 08:07
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 NIGBEE 06 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

No, you are just changing the rules to suit your argument.

No one wants to leave gear behind and you cannot know the circumstance surrounding why it is left there.

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 Blanche DuBois 06 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

> cams on a v-diff...?

Working 5c sports routes?

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 DaveHK 06 Sep 2020
In reply to NIGBEE:

> No, you are just changing the rules to suit your argument.

I don't think so, all of the things I mentioned are standard crag swag practice as I understand it and as I've seen others post about quite often i.e. it doesn't include personal items, high value items, forgotten items or kit left as a result of an accident. Basically, it's only the odd bit of stuck pro that qualifies. I really can't understand why people get their knickers in a twist over that.

Post edited at 20:51
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 NIGBEE 06 Sep 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

Its because you think you can make a set of rules that alow you to take someones property that would not apply any where else but then get all high horse if someone asks for it back. 

What is the cut off for for £ value that you think is ok if 'high value items' are not 'in'

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 mrbird 06 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

Rescued from a VS?*

Post edited at 21:37
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 DaveHK 06 Sep 2020
In reply to NIGBEE:

> Its because you think you can make a set of rules that alow you to take someones property that would not apply any where else but then get all high horse if someone asks for it back. 

Crag swag is exactly that. A set of rules that don't apply any where else and I'm absolutely fine with that. It's a game. I didn't make the rules, I play along because I like the game but you're playing whether you like it or not!

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How can anyone in their right mind think that accidentally leaving a cam on a route is like people abandoning tents on purpose? 

I just remembered why I stopped reading the forums. Glad the gear was safely returned - and with that: goodbye all, I’m not getting sucked back into this utter nonsense again!

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 DaveHK 06 Sep 2020
In reply to NIGBEE:

> What is the cut off for for £ value that you think is ok if 'high value items' are not 'in'

Whatever a cam costs. But I'll preempt your objection by saying that non-pro items of similar value aren't crag swag.

I thought you said you knew the rules?

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 deacondeacon 06 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

> cams on a v-diff...?

Watch out everyone. There's a hero in our midst. 

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 Webster 07 Sep 2020
In reply to C W

> What sort of large gear should one use to cover hand-crack size up? You're not seriously suggesting... * gulp * hexes?!

ermm... yes

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In reply to C Witter:

> What sort of large gear should one use to cover hand-crack size up? You're not seriously suggesting... * gulp * hexes?!

> Or... is this like golf, now, and if you're on a VDiff you have to apply a "handicap", e.g. the weight of three medium - large hexes for every grade you have in hand?

They are perfect for a meandering route, they don't walk into cracks which happens more easily on traversing lines and they are easier for novices to extract, plus way cheaper. 

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 MarkH55 07 Sep 2020
In reply to summo:

Just think of the noise pollution if everyone started carrying hexes again!

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 Lankyman 07 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

> cams on a v-diff...?


Outrageous. The BMC should fund someone to patrol the crag with a loudhailer, gear-shaming anyone carrying friends on classic punter routes.

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 C Witter 07 Sep 2020
In reply to summo:

> They are perfect for a meandering route, they don't walk into cracks which happens more easily on traversing lines and they are easier for novices to extract, plus way cheaper. 

All good points. In addition, I guess parties carrying hexes could, in extremis, bang them together to attract attention, should they become cragfast. Other uses might include weighing down slings and hefting as a weapon should a fight break out in the queue for Little Cham.

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 MJAngry 07 Sep 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

> Outrageous. The BMC should fund someone to patrol the crag with a loudhailer, gear-shaming anyone carrying friends on classic punter routes.

Would make a change from shouting at each other! 

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 Lankyman 07 Sep 2020
In reply to C Witter:

> Other uses might include weighing down slings

I have actually done this. Can't recall if it was to keep a runner seated or if I was just ridding myself of the extra weight (once I knew it wasn't needed of course).

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 C Witter 07 Sep 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

Yes, me too! Quite helpful on a windy day. Although, I find a big blue cam does the job just as well ;)

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In reply to C Witter:

Pretty much all my big old DMM 4cu no 4 gets used for these days!

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 Rod_Vortex 07 Sep 2020
In reply to Webster:

I'm glad the bouncer wasn't at the bottom when I did it! Wouldn't have enjoyed it as much with a moac, 2 big hexes and a hemp sling. Absolute shocker - I did it in rubbers as well. 

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 Beanmanclimb 12 Sep 2020
In reply to Beanmanclimb:

Got the cam back, thanks a lot Nick and Natalie!

and thank you every grumpy sad man with too much time on their hands that took the time to moan on this thread. I do hope you can find happiness somewhere x

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In reply to MarkH55:

> Just think of the noise pollution if everyone started carrying hexes again!

Exactly. I'd struggle to hear the pornogrind and thrashcore I like to play at the crag over all that clanking.

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 DaveHK 12 Sep 2020
In reply to Beanmanclimb:

>  I do hope you can find happiness somewhere x

​​​​​​I'm off to count up my swag, that usually does the trick.  

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