UKC

Rage at Horseshoe Quarry - 2 quickdraws taken

 ptrickey 21 Aug 2021

Hi, I left 2 quickdraws at lower-offs on Rage (6b) as I started working it on Wednesday (18th Aug). Left them there on Thursday (19th Aug) in the afternoon as it rained again. Came back on Friday morning about 10am and they were gone. I'd appreciate their return. Thanks Peter

In reply to ptrickey:

Are you sure someone hasn't just tidied them up?

Why did you leave them?

Message Removed 21 Aug 2021
Reason: inappropriate content
In reply to ptrickey:

If I found 2 random draws on an easily accessible 6b I would definitely assume they were abandoned.

In reply to ptrickey:

You lead E5 and sport climb in the 7's.

Surely you could have gotten a couple draws out of a 6b at Horseshoe 😄 

 ptrickey 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

It rained and I was coming back and I personally wouldn't consider quickdraws on a sport climb crag booty. The reason they were left is my climbing partner gets too nervous to thread the anchors and as last person on climb both days left them in place as we got rained off Wednesday and Thursday.

 kevin stephens 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey: abandoned then

 olddirtydoggy 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

What's wrong with posters on here? Some bloke has had a couple of draws taken and he's politely asked for them back. Does anybody have them?

 ptrickey 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ebdon:

I must've missed the 'wall to crag' training course on what sport grade to leave in or tidy up quickdraws on. Nevermind, lesson learnt 😂

 deepsoup 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ebdon:

> If I found 2 random draws on an easily accessible 6b I would definitely assume they were abandoned.

Me too, probably.  And then after reading this thread post I'd be getting in touch with the OP to see about getting them back to him.  Because it's nice to be nice and there's absolutely no need to be a dick about this.

 Graeme Hammond 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

Never understood people moaning that it rained so they had to leave their kit then posting on here, if it means that much abseil down and remove your gear regardless of the weather, that's what I've had to do on several occasions. Or for that matter not returning to the crag to get kit, best avoided by counting all your kit when you leave although I still seem to loose the odd stuff.

If I found two draws at the top of a route I'd probably post about them on here as as I'd assume they had been forgotten by mistake however unlikely this seems as it isn't standard practice to leave draws in routes in the UK (probably the reason some have disliked your post). However I'd have no idea if they would have been there a few hours or several weeks. 

Hopefully someone has removed then but hasn't had a change to post so fingers crossed you get them back.

In reply to deepsoup:

Sure, and I would totally give them back if I had them, and I hope the OP gets them back, my point was leaving gear lying around at a popular crag for 3 days and expecting it to be there when you come back is a bold move. If I had them I wouldn't consider them 'taken' I would consider them rescued.

 deepsoup 21 Aug 2021
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> What's wrong with posters on here?

The UKC 'crag swag' faction get very defensive and upset at the merest suggestion that it might not be totally ok to keep any second-hand oddments off other people's racks they've retrieved from the crag and carried back to their £30k camper van. 

Others may be worried that quickdraws being left in situ overnight could get climbers a bad name by ruining the lovely pastoral ambience of the crag and spoiling the experience of any non-climbers who walked in later just to revel in the sheer unspoiled beauty of the place at sunset.

But perhaps I'm being unfair.  Maybe some folks are just compensating a bit because they're slightly disappointed having misunderstood the thread title and expected some satisfyingly lurid reports of argy bargy.  Must admit that's what I did - I clicked on "Rage at Horseshoe" half expecting to read a trolltastic tale about the quickdraws being snatched off someone's rack to be used as knuckle dusters in a right old punch up.  Possibly involving a dog.

Post edited at 14:01
 deepsoup 21 Aug 2021
In reply to ebdon:

> .. and expecting it to be there when you come back is a bold move.

Being a bit of an Eeyore by nature, I actually quite admire that kind of optimism.

 Donotello 21 Aug 2021

This thread is fun but if you want a real laugh catch a thread involving a boulderer crying his stashed pad has gone missing. 

Post edited at 23:25
In reply to Donotello:

You’re obviously taking a gamble stashing a pad somewhere, given how many thieves there are in this country. However, compared to say, a stuck nut/a dropped screwgate/an in-situ quickdraw, I’d say there’s pretty much no ambiguity about the purpose of the ‘abandoned’ pad. To a climber at least. A non-climber might be more inclined to just take it, but then what would they need it for…? besides trying to sell on, I suppose. 
 

I wouldn’t do it myself and when I’ve seen the occasional one in the Peak I’ve thought: “Oo, that’s brave.” My second thought being: “I’ll leave that right there. Someone must have stashed it and it clearly isn’t mine because that someone wasn’t me.” 
 

There you go: I bit. 

 Lankyman 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Donotello:

> This thread is fun but if you want a real laugh catch a thread involving a boulderer crying his stashed pad has gone missing. 

I walked up to do Deer Bield Buttress (E1 5a) and someone had nicked the route!

 Al Randall 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

At what point does gear left in a route become simply litter.  And how is anyone supposed to know if removing it is stealing or tidying up the environment?

Al

 Jon Read 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Al Randall:

I would argue it's always tidying up (and should be encouraged). I would also consider failing to take the minimum effort to try to reunite them with the owner, by posting here for e.g., is theft.

 ptrickey 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Al Randall:

I'd say it becomes litter if the owner has no intention and/or desire to recover it or have it returned if recovered by another.

 gethin_allen 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

Once again loads of people on UKC are effectively advocating theft.

And if anyone wants to argue if it's theft they can ask that lady who picked up a £20 note outside a shop and got done for "theft by finding".

Leaving gear around is probably not the best plan with people like this around.

I still can't understand why people want other peoples potentially dodgy gear of unknown providence.

In reply to gethin_allen:

I'll bite.... (and I'm not sure this actually applies to the gear in question - more a stuck gear thing) I don't want other people's dodgy gear, I've got lots thanks, but I really don't like other peoples shite gear getting in my way when I'm trying to climb because they were frankly too incompetent or too lazy, to remove it. 

If I get gear stuck (and it occasionally happens even to heroes like me) im pretty embarrassed and I'm greatful when someone removes my little marker of shame and cleans it up for me.

 Al Randall 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

> I'd say it becomes litter if the owner has no intention and/or desire to recover it or have it returned if recovered by another.

So! Mind reading then

Al

 Donotello 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

None of the threads related to nicked pads are arguments about wether you would or wouldn’t steal one, they’re about 99% of rope climbers having a complete disdain for boulderers leaving huge bits of foam at beauty spots (most bouldering venues here are in nice forests) - something which hikers and ramblers do not want to see, thus the consensus is always to slam the victim for leaving their detritus there in the first place. 

 Donotello 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

I wonder why climbers seem to think the ‘leave no trace’ ethos that people generally abide by in the countryside doesn’t apply to them. 
 

I’d always try and get stuff back to its owner via Ukc before keeping it, but I would never leave stuff there. We wouldn’t like it if someone partaking in ANY other activity left something at our crags so don’t leave anything yourself if you can help it, and take whatever someone else has left behind, with you. 

In reply to gethin_allen:

> And if anyone wants to argue if it's theft they can ask that lady who picked up a £20 note outside a shop and got done for "theft by finding".

Without wishing to comment on the rights or wrongs of either situation, it is worth pointing out that the two situations are not comparable; presumably the £20 was not knowingly left there.

In reply to Lankyman:

> I walked up to do Deer Bield Buttress (E1 5a) and someone had nicked the route!

It was advertised on eBay for a while but nobody bothered bidding for it. Trad Lakeland routes just aren't as popular as they used to be. I blame climbing walls/sport climbing/top-ropers/people who say "send."

In reply to Donotello:

Fair enough. I only boulder in the Peak, so the few pads I’ve seen have been well tucked into crevices, under rocks etc in such a way as to not be easily visible. That’s my idea of ‘stashed’. Obviously just leaving them under a problem or clearly visible is a) unwise and b) unethical.  

 cragtyke 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ebdon:

Is the lower off on Rage one of those that can be reached from above on the upper tier?

 ptrickey 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Al Randall:

Whoever kindly took the quickdraws down doesn't need to be a mindreader just (hopefully) a ukc reader/poster to find the owner and return them. I was there 3 consecutive days between rain and accept a charge of being lazy but personally consider leaving quickdraws in a route with every intention of using and retrieving them not out of the ordinary for sport climbing and relatively reasonable (compared to leave no trace in trad climbing). When I've been living locally to a sport climbing crag I've taken down (tidied if you like) draws when they've been left in place and done the right thing by finding the owner and returning them. Conversely if I'm visiting somewhere and found draws on a route I want to climb, I have used them (unless they look in poor condition) and left them in situ. 

 Al Randall 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

I have no argument whatsoever with the principle that if someone posts that they have left some QD's somewhere they should be returned.  That's simple honesty.  What I take issue with is a)the assumption you make that they SHOULD be left there b)that the vast majority of climbers read UKC and c) by leaving them there you are assuming that your intentions are clear.

 deepsoup 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

I don't know about what is 'out of the ordinary' where, but leaving QDs in situ isn't the accepted practice at Horseshoe.

I hope you get your QDs back.  If you leave them in situ overnight at any of the crags around Stoney again you'll probably lose them again.

 ptrickey 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Al Randall:

> I have no argument whatsoever with the principle that if someone posts that they have left some QD's somewhere they should be returned.  That's simple honesty.  What I take issue with is a)the assumption you make that they SHOULD be left there b)that the vast majority of climbers read UKC and c) by leaving them there you are assuming that your intentions are clear.

a) I've no assumption that they should be left there by anyone - they were taken down and I'd like them back and in similar circumstances I've taken draws down and returned them as I've said

b) just "hopeful" that the person is a ukc user (or perhaps through word of mouth with one)

c) no assumption on my part anyone would know my intentions (although I did leave a quick note beside first foot hold of the route and know it could have been missed) 

 Lankyman 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Without wishing to comment on the rights or wrongs of either situation, it is worth pointing out that the two situations are not comparable; presumably the £20 was not knowingly left there.

You can't assume anything. What if the £20 owner had been carrying a huge wad and had had to leave it on the pavement to return later to collect (perhaps with an accompanying note)? The finder should scour the streets looking for the owner, post on every social media platform and alert the press. It's the only moral way.

 deepsoup 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> The finder should scour the streets looking for the owner, post on every social media platform and alert the press. It's the only moral way.

That's a strawman argument.  It's the person who dropped the metaphorical £20 note (or indeed deliberately left it there intending to retrieve it later) asking, quite politely, if the person who picked it up would return it please.  We have no way of knowing whether the finder has seen that request or not.

If finder does see it and decides to keep the money anyway, the above argument sheds no light one way or the other on the morality of the situation.  (As the argument that 'finders keepers' is somehow a sacred tradition in certain contexts does at least attempt to do.)

 Lankyman 22 Aug 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> That's a strawman argument.  It's the person who dropped the metaphorical £20 note (or indeed deliberately left it there intending to retrieve it later) asking, quite politely, if the person who picked it up would return it please.  We have no way of knowing whether the finder has seen that request or not.

> If finder does see it and decides to keep the money anyway, the above argument sheds no light one way or the other on the morality of the situation.  (As the argument that 'finders keepers' is somehow a sacred tradition in certain contexts does at least attempt to do.)

As always in these situations I ask myself 'What would Jesus do?'

 gethin_allen 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ebdon:

>"... I really don't like other peoples shite gear getting in my way when I'm trying to climb ..."

If they were on route on a bolt then you may have some point, but these draws were on the lower off. It would be a simple case of clipping them together and then to the link in the  chain leaving you with with either the bolts to thread or the ring. There are a myriad of places to leave two draws on a lower off without them getting in any ones way.

If as you say you don't want or need other peoples old gear, and you see it as cleaning up to remove such gear. what do you do with gear like this? destroy it, bin it, give it to someone to make it their problem? surely better for everyone, the environment included, to just leave it for the owner to recover, unless the gear has obviously been there for ages and is damaged or corroded.

Finally, it's Horseshoe quarry. It's a massive man made hole in the hill filled with bolts and covered in chalk and all the other detritus that comes along with it being a former industrial site and now a popular low grade sport climbing destination in the peak district.

 Rob Parsons 22 Aug 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> I still can't understand why people want other peoples potentially dodgy gear of unknown providence.

You probably mean 'provenance.'

In any case: metal gear (wires, krabs etc.) which looks okay, is okay. So your suspicion of found gear being 'potentially dodgy' is misplaced.

In reply to Lankyman:

> As always in these situations I ask myself 'What would Jesus do?'

Not exist. <runs away/>

 Andy Gamisou 22 Aug 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Others may be worried that quickdraws being left in situ overnight could get climbers a bad name by ruining the lovely pastoral ambience of the crag and spoiling the experience of any non-climbers who walked in later just to revel in the sheer unspoiled beauty of the place at sunset.

I absolutely agree with them, at Horseshit quarry in particular it detracts from the beer cans and broken glass.

It's pretty poor to knick someone's stuff then come up with sanctimonious disingenuous twaddle that so many on UKC are giving likes to.  I'd have a bit more respect if they at least admitted to being sticky fingered tea-leafs. Disappointing.

Post edited at 13:39
 gethin_allen 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> You probably mean 'provenance.'

not necessarily, copying from a dictionary

"Providence - the foresight or care exercised by a person in the management of his affairs or resources."

> In any case: metal gear (wires, krabs etc.) which looks okay, is okay. So your suspicion of found gear being 'potentially dodgy' is misplaced.

How about quickdraws? Do you trust that dogbone?

 Rob Parsons 22 Aug 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> not necessarily, copying from a dictionary

> "Providence - the foresight or care exercised by a person in the management of his affairs or resources."

If that's exactly what you meant when you wrote "I still can't understand why people want other peoples potentially dodgy gear of unknown providence" then fair enough.

> How about quickdraws? Do you trust that dogbone?

Slings, ropes, etc. are different, and it's more difficult to be sure they're okay - so use your own judgement. But the state of the two krabs will be obvious from a visual assessment.

 DerwentDiluted 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> As always in these situations I ask myself 'What would Jesus do?'

Well he wouldn't be arsing about in Horseshoe Quarry, I'm pretty sure about that. He'd be over on the trad - rumour has it that he found Calvary (E4 6a) to be 'nails'.

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> I absolutely agree with them, at Horseshit quarry in particular it detracts from the beer cans and broken glass.

I don't know when you were last at Horseshoe Quarry, but I have been a moderately regular visitor over the last 7 years, and I've never seen broken glass or beer cans there. We went on a BMC crag clean up day there a few years ago, and there was no litter to pick up. We filled our bags at the Stoney carpark though quickly. Horseshoe is an old, and at times wobbly quarry, but it's well looked after by climbers. It's a place where wildlife seems to be doing quite well - butterflies in particular, a bit like when I was in Goddard's Quarry a couple of days ago (which makes the rock quality in HQ look  great in comparison) there were huge numbers of house martins swooping around.

Post edited at 15:33
 Emilio Bachini 22 Aug 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

You recon you’ll be leaving any draws on accessible routes at Horseshoe (or other popular crags) in the future? 

 ptrickey 22 Aug 2021
In reply to Emilio Bachini:

> You recon you’ll be leaving any draws on accessible routes at Horseshoe (or other popular crags) in the future? 

No, I've learnt my lesson 😂

In reply to gethin_allen:

> And if anyone wants to argue if it's theft they can ask that lady who picked up a £20 note outside a shop and got done for "theft by finding".

it was inside the shop … probably makes a difference.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Bet he'd be "cross" about that comment🤣

 Albert Tatlock 23 Aug 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> And if anyone wants to argue if it's theft they can ask that lady who picked up a £20 note outside a shop and got done for "theft by finding".

Hi, do you have any further details or links to this case, very interested in the reasonable steps to trace the owner the alleged thief took took  or didn’t take to trace the owner.

Thanks

Post edited at 00:28
 gethin_allen 23 Aug 2021
In reply to Albert Tatlock:

https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/newsroom/why-keeping-money-you-find-can-result-in-a-criminal-conviction/

These people state that the key points are determining dishonesty, whether or not the items are truly abandoned and whether or not the items could be reunited with the owner by taking reasonable step and if so did the person make these efforts.

In reply to ptrickey:

Hi there, sorry your draws got stolen. I think the problem might be the grade of the route. While it’s commonplace to leave draws in place while working harder/overhanging routes, it’s not so often seen on 6bs. I guess this could lead to some confusion as to whether they were abandoned. 
If it was a trad route, you can see the justification to take gear out to free up placements (although the in situ stuck friend on Superdirect p2 in the ‘80s became ‘fixed gear’ for a while). 
However, leaving gear in place on a sports route affects no one, and in this case ‘crag swag’ is a euphemism for theft. Live and learn eh?

 ptrickey 23 Aug 2021
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> Live and learn eh?

Yes!

In reply to ptrickey:

Get some tough tags. It makes it more likely you'll get your gear back

 Andy Gamisou 03 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> I don't know when you were last at Horseshoe Quarry, but I have been a moderately regular visitor over the last 7 years, and I've never seen broken glass or beer cans there. We went on a BMC crag clean up day there a few years ago, and there was no litter to pick up. We filled our bags at the Stoney carpark though quickly. Horseshoe is an old, and at times wobbly quarry, but it's well looked after by climbers. It's a place where wildlife seems to be doing quite well - butterflies in particular, a bit like when I was in Goddard's Quarry a couple of days ago (which makes the rock quality in HQ look  great in comparison) there were huge numbers of house martins swooping around.

Last time I was there must have been well over 10 years ago - sounds like it's improved a lot.  Maybe I'll give it another go next time I'm in the area.  Then my wife can blame you instead of me

In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> Hi there, sorry your draws got stolen. I think the problem might be the grade of the route. While it’s commonplace to leave draws in place while working harder/overhanging routes, it’s not so often seen on 6bs.

This is a lesson I Iearned in Kalymnos of all places. I left a full route (6b/+) equipped overnight for my significant other. We were one of the last to leave the crag, as the sun had come round, and returned first thing the following day only to find some kind soul had taken them all.

On the other hand I left a slightly harder, but far from rock star graded, (7a+) route fully equipped but they were left in place. There does seem to be some 'elitism' involved in what grade we are 'allowed' to leave equipped and those we aren't, which doesn't sit well with me. 

 Lankyman 03 Sep 2021
In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> This is a lesson I Iearned in Kalymnos of all places. I left a full route (6b/+) equipped overnight for my significant other. We were one of the last to leave the crag, as the sun had come round, and returned first thing the following day only to find some kind soul had taken them all.

> On the other hand I left a slightly harder, but far from rock star graded, (7a+) route fully equipped but they were left in place. There does seem to be some 'elitism' involved in what grade we are 'allowed' to leave equipped and those we aren't, which doesn't sit well with me. 

Elitism? No, it's just easier to steal the draws from a 6b+ than a 7a+.

In reply to Lankyman:

> Elitism? No, it's just easier to steal the draws from a 6b+ than a 7a+.

Maybe you are right, there's always a %age of unsavourable types in any group, and maybe I've just been lucky so far? In any case I am much more conscious of leaving draws in place after that episode

In reply to Lankyman:

> As always in these situations I ask myself 'What would Jesus do?'

Take the £20 and do good for others with it.

 OrangeBob 03 Sep 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Ooh yes, please let there be a dog...

In reply to gethin_allen:

> >"... I really don't like other peoples shite gear getting in my way when I'm trying to climb ..."

> If they were on route on a bolt then you may have some point, but these draws were on the lower off. It would be a simple case of clipping them together and then to the link in the  chain leaving you with with either the bolts to thread or the ring. There are a myriad of places to leave two draws on a lower off without them getting in any ones way.

> If as you say you don't want or need other peoples old gear, and you see it as cleaning up to remove such gear. what do you do with gear like this? destroy it, bin it, give it to someone to make it their problem? surely better for everyone, the environment included, to just leave it for the owner to recover, unless the gear has obviously been there for ages and is damaged or corroded.

> Finally, it's Horseshoe quarry. It's a massive man made hole in the hill filled with bolts and covered in chalk and all the other detritus that comes along with it being a former industrial site and now a popular low grade sport climbing destination in the peak district.

Next time I see some litter on the floor I'll leave it for the owner to recover. 

Next time I'm passing Horse Shoe I'll dump that rubbish that I can't be bothered to take to the tip.

Post edited at 10:40
 n-stacey 05 Sep 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

I remember once leaving my first wife at home whilst I went out climbing, when I got home someone had stole her....I’m so glad that I never got her back..

 Jim Hamilton 06 Sep 2021
In reply to gethin_allen:

> These people state that the key points are determining dishonesty, whether or not the items are truly abandoned and whether or not the items could be reunited with the owner by taking reasonable step and if so did the person make these efforts.

It seems to say dishonesty is determined by other (honest and reasonable) peoples judgement, and that not being able to reunite items is a defence under the Theft Act to dishonesty.

So, possibly, even if the quickdraws had contact details, going by the like/dislike ratio and climbers "crag swag" etiquette, taking them wouldn’t be seen as dishonest?! 

 OrangeBob 07 Sep 2021
In reply to ptrickey:

You'd be surprised how many people leave abseil ropes hanging down cliffs in Pembrokeshire. I've got loads if anyone wants one.

 Wire Shark 08 Sep 2021
In reply to n-stacey:

> I remember once leaving my first wife at home whilst I went out climbing, when I got home someone had stole her....I’m so glad that I never got her back..

Fine misogyny right there.  Fairly typical though...


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