UKC

I couldn’t help but notice the reports in the news of mass gatherings and raids on supermarkets for more booze after the 10 o’clock last orders call in a number of UK cities.

I also noted that some of our European neighbours have introduced similar earlier closing times, according to the news reports.  What I didn’t see were reports in Europe of the large crowds of plastered people that we saw here in the UK.  

We’re there the mass gatherings in other European cities but just not reported.  Or is this a reflection of the relationship with alcohol in the UK which appears to be out of step with a lot of our European neighbours.

Travelling around various European cities over the years, we do appear to be an outlier.  Its not that there isn’t alcohol fuelled yobbish behaviour, just we’re better at it.

Bars have been permanently closed in Marseille. Not just from 10pm. There were riots.

E

I would agree, the boorish behaviour you frequently see in UK pubs does not seem to happen elsewhere in the world. Although of course I have been to far more British establishments than foreign ones!

It's a cultural thing. I don't think most (southern, central) Europeans really do the whole drinking to excess after they get to their 20s.

Its sort of ironic that a Brexit government copies a European law forgetting the cultural differences which would make it not work in the UK.

One of the original arguments made for later and more flexible opening times for pubs was precisely to avoid the issue with everyone spilling into the street and causing uproar and mayhem.

It's hardly a surprise to anyone that has drank in town centre pubs in the previous century that this was the effect of 10 pm closing, "Everyone back to mine!"

Yet more ill thought through government incompetence.

I’m sufficiently vintage to remember “last orders haven’t you got a home to go to” call.  This may be because I did my early drinking in a small town, but I don't recall there being the large crowds spilling onto the streets.  We certainly have lots of after pub “parties” with the infamous party sevens in tow.

maybe not southern or central Europeans, but some Finns certainly drink to excess, but they don't seem to behave in the same way as Brits. Similar in the Baltic States.

If one were feeling charitable, one might argue that it's not the government's fault people act like f*ckwits, and that they perhaps took the view that specifically legislating for such f*ckwittery would have been too damning an indictment of capacity of the British public to act in its own best interests 

Spanish Fiestas on Saints days seem to have their share of carnage. Usually way after I've had to turn in !

If it was everywhere I would agree, but in reality it was only in a few areas and reflected media hype. In our  centre which is a well know local night life area and is usually heaving it was quiet.

My favourite gin bar was not as full as normal and our curry house had effectively no table bookings after 8.30 so had started to empty from 9.15.

The issue will quitenn down anyway as winter approaches, last Saturday was a pleasant evening and this also has to be fatcored in. A bit of rain will soon see off the 10 pm crowds.

This is definitely valid - the Spanish are generally civilized drinkers except on fiestas in which case they all go mental. 

Although in many areas (Nottingham is often mentioned) abolishing closing time has resulted in people spilling into the street and causing uproar all night. 

I'm not often in the position of defending this government but I don't think it's reasonable to blame the authorities imposing a restriction for the minority won't comply.  Just because some idiots go steaming past in the fast lane at 100+ doesn't mean we should abandon speed limits.  Maybe restricting opening hours will be effective at reducing infection and maybe it won't make much difference but deciding health policy based on what people in a pub at closing time think is a terrible idea.

If there's too much alcohol-fueled misbehaviour caused by closing pubs at 10.00, perhaps we should close them at 9.00.

Well it's down to the marvellous powers of the government to think things through:

eg: people return from holiday, go to work, send kids to school, cases of covid go up and there is a run on test who would have thought that?

So... pubs shut at 10 but shops selling booze stay open, drinkers pile out of pubs and into the supermarkets.  Who would have thought it? surely no one could have predicted that.

Still the HoP bars are staying open (and subsidised) so no one hanging out in a Tesco Metro need be bothered by a member of the cabinet seeking drink in person.

I think in most countries folk grow out of it by 25 or so, in the UK it just creates lifelong alcoholics. 

It’s all about flattening the curve. It’s about delaying the second wave as much as possible while doing as little damage to the economy as possible.

Why has everyone forgotten that message?

If it was about stopping an out of control virus that we had no idea how fast or where it was spreading, like we had in March, we’d all be locked down. 
 

The 10 o’clock curfew has resulted in a 25% drop in footfall. 
 

The sit at a table with the 6 people you arrived with meant I had to sit out in the pub garden on my own in my shorts, in the cold, in the dark on Friday night. I had a pint, spoke to no one but my dog and went home. 
 

It’s all about the statistics. 

In March we had about 330,000 infections a day that weren’t being picked up.

Blackpool, the de-facto den of inequity, must be bucking the trend or at least the first weekend when I was working nights.

Come 22-30 hrs both the prom and inland was like a ghost-town.

Is Blackpool's drinking population imported each weekend though? If so, that would explain it - no point going to Bpool if you can't have a proper night out.  Whereas a 'local's' town' would have people bumping into others in the street and chatting / going back to house parties.

You for real?

The rest of the regular 140,000 inhabitants live like monks then?

based on our education system, mainstream culture and top down media style it is of no surprise that 'the masses' think this is normal.

I guess the question really is, if they weren't doing this what would they be doing and would that be better?...

Funnily enough, I reckon we're at about 14,000 actual infections per day now (vs ~6,000 detected ones) and a real doubling time of about 8 days (vs 9 from the detected infections).  That puts us 4 weeks away from having 150,000 infections per day as with the time we locked down in March.

If the latest tranche of restrictions don't work, we'll be 2 weeks away from 150,000 infections per day before we can evaluate that they haven't worked, and we'll only have one last shot at lowering community transmission before we're forced in to another serious lockdown.

Me, I'd be bringing in stricter measures right now - but not lockdown - and looking to start relax them in 2 weeks if the data supports doing so, because it's better than cocking it up, all over again, and ending up with infections so widespread that the only way to prevent NHS overload is a full on emergency stop far longer and far more serious than the measures for the next two weeks.

But I don't we'll learn from our past, as the past is like a foreign country, and we sure as shitcakes didn't learn from them back in March.

Using a much more optimistic assumption of 9,000 cases per day and a doubling time of 9 days, we are 5 weeks away from lockdown level spread.

I thought 'legal highs’ and smack were the recreational drugs of preference in Blackpool, rather than going to the pub?

It may be that restrictions in supermarkets and convenience stores will be next, Andy Burnham has already said this should be considered. 

Last weekend I came across three upstanding citizens who had taken ketamine as part of their night out.

Funnily enough, they were not in pain.

There was a very interesting program on R4 yesterday about national culture affecting infection rate eg Japan social distances and hygiene leading to low infection Sweden respect for rules lessening need for full lockdown etc 

I dont get the 10pm thing at all. How does this slow the spread of corona. It's a very odd idea I think. What happens after 10pm that's any different for corona than b4 10.

If people want to get drunk they'll go out earlier or get booze from the shop.

I hope they took it b4 10pm. Responsible use is important

Plod babysat them till we rocked up, closely followed by one mother. She not a happy camper.

They'd just need a wall to stare at for a few hrs.

Good luck with that. The general public aren’t interested in a lockdown when ‘only’ 30 odd people are dying a day. 
 

The majority of them are stupid and selfish I’m afraid. 
 

Best we can do is save as much money as you can, put aside some supplies and get ready for the next lockdown. As you say current restrictions are trebling the length of the doubling so 4-6 weeks puts us middle of November. 9 weeks of lockdown and the vaccine will be out by mid January. 
 

It was always coming. The NHS have been warning about it since July. 

Exactly!

Our European neighbours are experiencing a second wave as well.
 

It was always coming. It’s impossible to stay locked down forever. 

I presume from your sanctimonious tone that you do not include yourself in that category?

Indeed. 
 

Since March I have not been into anyone else’s house. 
I did not join in the hugging and arm wrestling in my local pub last week. 
I have been sitting outside at the three pubs I’ve been to. 
My daughter has not been to any of the birthday parties that have been held, ignoring social distancing. 
I haven’t been complaining about wearing a mask.

I haven’t been asking for the government to ‘lift restrictions because deaths are so low’.

I haven’t forgotten why deaths are currently so low, it has nothing to do with herd immunity or the disease becoming less dangerous, or it being a scam. 

I haven’t used a civil servants bad behaviour to justify my behaviour. 

I haven’t blamed the government for the way they are handling a pandemic where unpleasant and unpopular choices have had, and will have, to be made.

I guess that about covers it...

Aren't they mostly pensioners as there's relatively little work? The 65k people living here can only sustain 2x 500 capacity nightclubs, and we're very good at drinking.

Trust me, many pensioners in Blackpool are just as capable of getting pissed, and requiring the services of a "putter back into bed" as any yoof needing a "sleepy night night" bed at the local hospital while the effects wear off because they were too drunk to walk home.

Last week  I went to a 60+ gent who was intoxicated in the street resting on a wall, for an hour with bystanders keeping him company while waiting for an ambulance.

Turns out that he was indeed pissed, but neglected to tell the good intentioned bystanders that he only lived 5 doors away and was capable of walking through his front door.

Did he care one jot when this was pointed out to him?

No point arguing or negotiating with a drunk. You are effectively talking to a bottle of alcohol.

Wow that’s quite a tale about that guy. What was he playing at? Wanted attention? Or so wasted that he didn’t know where he was? 

I think closing time in Wales is 10.20pm due to Covid.

Is this because off-licences close at 10pm?

Is not just the traditional drinking up time after last orders?

South Africa's lockdown included a total ban on the sale of alcohol anywhere. They were terrified that Covid would spread like wild fire through the numerous densely packed illegal settlements. So far the spread of the virus has been nothing like as bad as they had feared.

It’s the traditional 20 mins to drink your drinks after last orders.

Of course our behavior is the problem. Let me tell you a story. Two of my friends, a married couple in their 80's are shielding from the virus. Me and my Mum have been buying their groceries. They own a farm and have been giving us fresh produce and meat as a way to say thanks. During this period my mother and the Lady who co-owns the farm came to an agreement that the the farmers would entertain my mothers 4 and 5 year old school attending grandchildren. My 4 year old nephew and 5 year old niece have spent two long afternoons at the farm and have been to their house 3 times. The Farmers haven't seen their grandchildren since lockdown because their family wish to protect them.

Sounds like an imminently sensible approach to me. 

We stopped mixing with others in late February / early March , I wasn't sure if I was being paranoid or not but I figured better safe than sorry.

The only issue I have with your post is I do blame the government. They acted too late in my opinion. Seeing what was happening in other parts of the world it was obvious what would happen here. I'm wondering if they were taking advice from this forum where lots of members were saying "you can't use Italy as an example because we have a different culture to them"

You guys saying that we're right, we do have a different culture to them so despite them being the early leaders we soon overtook them.

Edit to add, like you I don't blame them for acting now, there are hard choices to be made and short of a total lockdown (real one not the pretend one that we had) it's all about trial and error to find the best ballance between infection rates and a functioning country. 

Pubs are essential businesses - to the owners of the pubs. They are not essential to the customers, no one is going to die from not going into a pub for a drink.

Given the way COVID19 is spread, ie directly from person to person by droplets and aerosols and picking up infective particles from surfaces and touching nose or mouth why not close pubs completely? The virus isn't just going to spread after 10pm; it will spread anytime a large number of people are in relatively close contact.

Combine this, and any other restriction announced, with a target -"These restrictions will remain in place until the number of new infections per day(or per 100,000 of population) reduces to X." I can't remember if it was on here or elsewhere it was mentioned this has happened in parts of Australia.

Perhaps it would focus people's attention more.

I know it would be difficult as there is much more testing now so we are likely to see more cases but I'm sure epidemiologists and modellers could provide a baseline. 

A drawback would be some might say the value of X suggest it is an acceptable level of infection, but worth a try I think.

Dave

I would have no problem closing pubs and restaurants, like you say not essential.

I would even go as far as upping tax levels a bit and using that to support the hospitality industry so that we have pubs to return to when the time is right. 

With so little outlets to spend we could afford to pay a bit more tax. 

I can't tell if you think this childcare arrangement is a good idea, or a bad idea...

I don't care, they should all do whatever they want to.

Depends somewhat on the pub. Drinking up time is 20mins after the bar closes and generally last orders is called 10 or so minutes prior to that.

I found it interesting that Patrick Valance was saying that the infections in Europe were localised due to the size and yet ours was more general in the first wave and the opposite appears to be true now both for Europe and the U.K.  

I assume every country has had to deal with it differently. The Swedish prime minister was saying his country is more like a European country than Norway. Whether or not he was covering himself but Australia is obviously different due to size and geography and population. 
 

The only thing we really got wrong was testing and not realising it was probably already here in January. Or maybe they knew when they started doing contact tracing and realised testing was a pointless exercise. I think there’s information that’s released (or leaked) on a need to know basis. I’m certainly of the belief that English people weren’t ready to be locked down and this is proving more evident now than ever before, with growing numbers of people asking why we need to lockdown, even having seen the effect first hand in March. 
 

I don’t think people think logically. They’re all just bags of chemicals sloshing around. Certainly the people I meet seem to be more emotional than logic. 

I agree. Everyone has an emotional reaction to the pandemic, and it's tempting and indeed normal for those with the necessary skills to support their position with evidence; few people assess the effect that their emotions have on their thought process and conclusions.

It's quite hard to be dispassionate, and usually not very popular.

Ah, yes, you are "they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom", aren't you?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/the_pub/here_we_go_again-725739?v=1#x9299...

I don't know what to think or how to respond to that link and a few replies further down the discussion.

If a troll, then mission accomplished.

If a person with genuine beliefs and views then not exactly a Team Player with society and its well-being.

Registered three weeks ago. Another AP?

There’s a balance. Learning to control your basic emotions is done as a teenager for most people. They’re not all getting the guidance they should be. That’s why they’re stabbing each other in the cities. Fine tuning  is done in your 20s and then by the time you’ve raised children and realised all the bits you missed, you should have it mastered. 
 

We should listen to our grandparents, not line them up for the slaughter.