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/ Am I an Anti-Semite?

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L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018

Because the other two threads have got out of hand I thought my Mitzvah for the day would be to give you goys, by way of a little fun quiz, a bit of a guide.

1. I have associated with anti-Semites over the years
(a) Never,
(b) Not to my knowledge,
(c) Frequently, 
(d) What is important is to understand that the Palestine conflict is a complex one and that there are many different voices to be heard.

2. I think phrases such as 'the Palestinian genocide' 'An Apartheid state' 'and so on,
(a) Are wholly wrong, 
(b) The descriptions are inaccurate but a short hand way of conveying unease with the policies of the Israeli government,
(c) A valid description of the acts of the State of Israel,
(d) Our friends in the region have suffered a great Nakba and it is that which we should focus on, not the words used in a cry of despair.

3. You see a grossly offensive anti-Semitic mural do you:
(a) Make your revulsion clear and your condemnation unqualified?
(b) While accepting its anti-Semitic meaning, accept that the artist may have been seeking to convey other messages.
(c) Defend the artist's right to free speech? 
(d) This is a scathing critique of capitalism and the power of the few which is abused at great cost to thee many.

4. When clear evidence of anti-Semitism is uncovered do you say:
(a) I hope appropriate action will follow,
(b) The responsible person may not have understood that they were being an anti-Semite,
(c) This is a coordinated smear by sinister vested powers cynically manipulated to damage us,
(d) Everyone is entitled to due process and we must consider the appropriate means of investigating these allegations and the context of the allegations.

5. When challenged about your anti-Semitic language do you
(a) Ask for an explanation as to what was anti-Semitic and why?
(b) Deny that you're anti-Semitic as anti-Sematism is a form of racism and as you are a socialist and therefore an anti-racist you are not anti-Semitic.
(c) Explain that as you're pro-Palestinian and they're a Semitic race you can't be an anti-Semite / no, I am an anti-Zionist.
(d) It is clear there have been times when there have been things said that some could take out of context and weaponize to bring a great slur on me.

Answers.
Mostly a's, you're fine
Mostly b's, you're slipping into the fringes of anti-Semitism.
Mostly c's, yes, you're an anti-Semite.
Mostly d's: you're a leading left wing politician.

 

 



 

Rob Exile Ward on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Well congratulations on your substantial expenditure of effort. You've convinced me.

d_b on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I hear that failure to be convinced is a sure sign of anti semitism.

cb294 - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

d (a and b would be impossible to tell anyway),

b trending towards c (Apartheid unfortunately comes close),

aaa

I do not think the Jewish community do themselves much of a favour by denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic, as your post unfortunately also does.

CB

winhill - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to cb294:

> I do not think the Jewish community do themselves much of a favour by denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic, as your post unfortunately also does.

How on earth have you contrived that out of this OP?

 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

If I accuse you of plagiarising, nay, copying and pasting, a David Scheider post without giving due credit, does that make me an anti-Semite?

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to cb294:

> ..... think the Jewish community do themselves much of a favour by denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic, as your post unfortunately also does.

 

Are you sure this statement isn't anti-Semitic in itself. Careful now!

 

Post edited at 13:51
cb294 - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to winhill:

Look at how options d are phrased.
CB

dread-i - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

I'm pretty much A's all the way, but I was wondering if I could ask some advice?

>(a) Ask for an explanation as to what was anti-Semitic and why?

If I wish to criticize the actions of the Israeli government, how do I do so in a way that conveys my displeasure, but doesn't get construed as antisemitic?

For example:

"He's an inept, corrupt, blustering bully, pandering the the right wing of his party with jingoistic, petty nationalism."

If I use that phrase in relation to Trump, it would be accepted that I don't wish to drive the Americans into the sea, and hand back the land to the Native Americans.

But, and I think you can see the problem here, if I were to use that language to describe Netanyahu, some may consider it to be antisemitic.

How can I resolve this conundrum?

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Posted this on another thread, but it's worth a second outing. ( Can't be arsed to do multiple choice)

What's the definition of a terrorist?

Anyone who get's shot by the IDF.

winhill - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to cb294:

> Look at how options d are phrased.

Yes, I've read them but how on earth does it equal "denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic"

 

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I think you mean Scheidner.

As for plagarism all my own work, if you can show me the above by DS please do.  The closest I got was:- 

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/709746407373152257?lang=en

As for your question, the accusation doesn't make you anti-Semite, but what it does do is show that you think that the levelling of accusations of anti-Semitism are nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

 

 

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to dread-i:

Perfectly appropriate criticism of Bibi and a view I share.

I don't think that he will be in office for long.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

I wrote almost the same as the Twitter link point one, on another thread, and got accused of not being specific enough!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/cohen_the_sliperiness_of_corbyn-681749?v=1#x8763379

Is it OK now David's printed it?

Post edited at 14:16
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to winhill:

> Yes, I've read them but how on earth does it equal "denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic"

It's the standard trope of the anti-Semite.

The New NickB - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> It's the standard trope of the anti-Semite.

What is? 

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> I think you mean Scheidner.

From Schneider's link above I can answer.

No

No

No

No

and No.

Am I ok to use his scale and not yours, or is yours the true scale?

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to The New NickB:

That any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic: the flawed logic being that because some criticism must be valid and not anti-Semitic but is described as such: then my anti-Semitic criticism is by definition not anti-Semitic.

Perhaps it is just the hypocrisy of the left, you know the sort, the offensive comments about Tory women being fair game, making jibes because Eric Pickles is fat while ignoring or more likely justifying the offensive comments made by those on the left.

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

This:

2. I think phrases such as 'the Palestinian genocide' 'An Apartheid state' 'and so on,(a) Are wholly wrong, (b) The descriptions are inaccurate but a short hand way of conveying unease with the policies of the Israeli government,(c) A valid description of the acts of the State of Israel,(d) Our friends in the region have suffered a great Nakba and it is that which we should focus on, not the words used in a cry of despair.

is interesting, because it is conflating anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.  Objections to the political, military and other actions of the Israeli Government (either generally or in relation to Palestine) is not anti-Semitism in and of itself and should not be bracketed with it any more than my objection to most of Donald Trump's conduct makes me somehow object to normal everyday American people or believe bad should befall them.

Post edited at 14:34
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

I think that your true views shine through the numerous comments that you have made.

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

I don't think I'm an anti-semite, but constantly being accused of being one is starting to make me have negative feelings...

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> It's the standard trope of the anti-Semite.

You would consider me an anti-Semite because I object to much of the political, foreign policy and military actions of Netanyahu's Government?  Really?

If so frankly you are a fool.

My view is that Israel and the Palestinians (Governments) need to bang their figurative heads together in a room (without fisticuffs nor weaponry) and just sort their differences out.  If they can't do that, both Governments are made up of fools.

The actions of both Governments in this regard are to the disadvantage of both Jews and Palestinians.

Post edited at 14:38
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

'Anti-Zionism' is little more than anti-Semitism with better PR. Zionism is broadly the idea that we should have a state in which to reside: if you oppose that and you oppose the existence of the State of Israel then the inevitable conclusions will be drawn.

There has been no genocide in Gaza or the West Bank. The constitution of Israel is not an Apartheid constitution.

Of course criticising the polices of the Government is not anti-Semitic, their recent stance on refugees has been a disgrace.

 

Edited for typo.

Post edited at 15:00
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

That's not what I said.

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> 'Anti-Zionism' is little more than anti-Semitism with better PR. Zionism is broadly the idea that we should have a state in which to reside: if you oppose that and you oppose the existence of the State of Israel then the inevitable conclusions will be drawn.

I don't oppose the existence of any state per-se, however there does need to be recognition that there is more than one valid claim on the land making up Israel and that those Governments with those claims need to stop fighting and start sorting it all out such that normal, everyday Israelis and Palestinians can just live alongside one another in peace just like multiple races and religions do somewhere like London.

I do not, can not and will not give any one race or religion (any race or religion) political supremacy over any piece of land on Earth for any reason whatsoever.  Normal people just want to live their lives without that sort of nonsense; Governments are just a practical need because the alternative is anarchy.

Edit: And, to add to that, Jews (and equally all other religions and races) need to be free to live, and feel safe and at home, living in any part of the world they so choose without discrimination.  Going against that is the true meaning of anti-Semitism.

Post edited at 14:44
dunc56 - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

You are Borat, I claim my £5.

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

So you think it's anti-semitic to describe Israel's policy towards Palestinians as genocidal and apartheid-like?

How interesting. There are many, many Jewish people who have condemned Israel's policy in just those terms, or even stronger. Do you think *they're* anti-semitic?

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

It isn't even anti-Zionism; "Israel's foreign policy stinks" != "Israel should not exist".

I believe the former, I do not believe the latter as such (though I do believe there needs to be a proper agreement between Israel and Palestine as they both have valid claims on some of the land making up Israel, and it'd be a lot better for everyone if they'd both accept that and negotiate a proper solution suiting both so far as possible).

Post edited at 14:54
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

Quite simply yes.

The reason is simple, there is no policy of genocide or apartheid.  Reiterating these tropes is another dishonest way of demonising Israel and evinces a prejudice against Israel which is not in evidence against other states.

That a Jew might say something does not mean that it is not anti-Semitic.  Using this argument is a classic example of deflection.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> I think that your true views shine through the numerous comments that you have made.

If you'd like to accuse me of something you, might have the decency to say it out loud, even hiding behind your "cloak of anonymity" it might be a little more honest, than your insinuations.

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to dunc56:

£5! £5! do you think I am made of money?

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

I too accept Israel's right to exist. But I do think it's odd that everywhere else in the world, we would refuse to take seriously an inference from "Our Holy Book says this is our land, and we ruled it until 587 BC, therefore we have a right to it today". Yet apparently that's a good argument in the case of Israel. To refuse to accept this argument is not anti-semitism or even anti-zionism. To accept it is Israeli exceptionalism.

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

"Quite simply yes"?  Quite simply they're anti-semites, even though they themselves are Jewish, because they criticise Israel strongly?

Then quite simply you're being silly, and quite simply I am not engaging with you any more until you grow up a bit.

On the substantive point about what Israel does to the Palestinians: where have you been? Are you blind? Murder, harassment, intimidation, eviction, dispossession, torture, and the rest of it is happening to the Palestinians every day at the hands of the Israeli army and the illegal "settlers" in the West Bank, whose actions have been condemned repeatedly by the United Nations. That is not propaganda. It is well-documented fact. Here is one out of thousands of relevant clips. It comes from Reuters, an internationally respected journalistic source--founded, incidentally, by  Paul Reuter,  whose father was a rabbi and who was born Israel Beer Josaphat.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-palestinians/israeli-troops-kill-four-palestinians-wound-160-in-protests-over-jerusalem-idUKKBN1E91TQ

Post edited at 15:10
dunc56 - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> £5! £5! do you think I am made of money?

Oh sh1t have I been, you know, ahem .....

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Other Jews who don't agree with you on matters regarding Israel's politics on the regional stage are anti-Semites?

What a load of nonsense, frankly.  I think it is you who doesn't understand what anti-Semitism is, or you do understand what it is but seek to hijack it to your own political ends.

Post edited at 15:04
krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> £5! £5! do you think I am made of money?


You're not Rothschild are you?

Wiley Coyote2 - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to dunc56:

> You are Borat, I claim my £5.


I detect more of an Ali G vibe

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> £5! £5! do you think I am made of money?

Can we have a bit less of the anti-Semitic stereotyping, please...?

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Israel uses fragmentation bullets against unarmed protesters in the Gaza Strip. April 6 2018. A week ago today. Since today is also a Friday, I expect they're at it again today.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=21546

Human Rights Watch on Israel/Palestine. At least one of their top executives is Jewish:

https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/israel/palestine

Post edited at 15:27
L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

A perfect example of the tortured logic of the anti-Semitic left (the anti-Semitic right tend to just accept their prejudices).

The point is that the proposition that there are genocidal policies is a lie, the proposition that the constitution discriminates is a lie: repeating these lies is little different than the blood libel.

But anyway, since you're here: what do the actions of a few settlers int he West Bank have to do with anti-Semitic attitudes in the UK?
 

winhill - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

> So you think it's anti-semitic to describe Israel's policy towards Palestinians as genocidal and apartheid-like?

> How interesting. There are many, many Jewish people who have condemned Israel's policy in just those terms, or even stronger. Do you think *they're* anti-semitic?

F*ck me, you cannot make a claim to be a professional ethicist if you're going to make shit like this up.

Pathetic.

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

A deliberate absence of a sense of humour, laugh or I will annex your living room.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

> Israel uses fragmentation bullets against unarmed protesters in the Gaza Strip. April 6 2018. A week ago today. Since today is also a Friday, I expect they're at it again today.


Don't be so anti-Semitic, it's not Israel, it's not even the IDF, it's the bullets you should be blaming, the IDF are only firing them and the Israeli government are only telling the soldier to fire them. Your logic is very twisted if you're blaming Israel for this.

</sarcasm>

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> A deliberate absence of a sense of humour

My sense of humour is fine. Yours seems to be missing...

 

TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> From Schneider's link above I can answer.

> No

> No

> No

> No

> and No.

From past discussion I'm not putting you down as a "no" on his question 5!

 

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> or I will annex your living room.

Although my living room is already pretty annexed...

TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I do not, can not and will not give any one race or religion (any race or religion) political supremacy over any piece of land on Earth for any reason whatsoever.  Normal people just want to live their lives without that sort of nonsense; 

I think the Brexit vote shows that clearly isn't true, but anyway, do you think there should be no border controls at all then?

 

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

This David Cohen person is a troll. I suggest we ignore him.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> From past discussion I'm not putting you down as a "no" on his question 5!


You may be misquoting me. There seems to be almost, unwavering support for what the Israeli government is doing from some people.

So maybe not "every post", one or two might be enough.

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> I think the Brexit vote shows that clearly isn't true, but anyway, do you think there should be no border controls at all then?

I didn't say that, but I do believe (and it is one positive that can come from Brexit) that immigration should be controlled (numerically to some extent) on the basis of who wishes to come to the UK, work hard and contribute to the furthering of the UK as a diverse, well-integrated country rather than being selected based on citizenship of an arbitrary other (EU) country.  Essentially the Australian model.

Post edited at 15:41
krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

> This David Cohen person is a troll. I suggest we ignore him.


Interesting that he stated this thread also.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/the_pub/rivers_of_blood_should_the_bbc_broadcast_it-682975?v=1#x8766953

Seems quite keen on this, wonder if Enoch had mentioned Israel or Jews if his view would be the same.

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

How very mature of you.

 

Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Well, you've proved by your silly remarks that you're not worth responding to. So yes, not responding further to you is indeed the mature response.

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

Enoch Powel's speech was racist, he was a racist, I don't think that anyone is disputing that: the point was should the RoB be broadcast again as a window into earlier (and darker) times re the make up of our society.

Suggesting that I would take a different view if his racism was targeted at Jews rather than 'coloured' immigrants shows your distorted and prejudiced animus.  

bouldery bits - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

I did the quiz and it said my ideal member of One Direction would be Zayn.

 

I was amazed as I've always had more of a thing for Harry.  

TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

You said:

> I do not, can not and will not give any one race or religion (any race or religion) political supremacy over any piece of land on Earth for any reason whatsoever. 

Border control is surely the perogative of some sort of indigenous group claiming political supremacy over some land?

What gives you the right to say only hard working people who contribute get to move here?

?????

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

I suppose there is also the benefit of removing the risk of making any anti-Semitic remarks.  Now since you've saved some time, perhaps if you're an 'ethicist', maybe you could go read some Wittgenstein. 

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> .... your distorted and prejudiced animus.  

 

Could we leave my anus out of this?

I refer you to Q3 answer (C) above.

Post edited at 15:56
TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

You presumed Nick Cohen was Jewish and complained that he only wrote about British politics and hadn't condemned a racist Israeli rabbi as I remember it.

Neil Williams - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> You said:

> > I do not, can not and will not give any one race or religion (any race or religion) political supremacy over any piece of land on Earth for any reason whatsoever. 

> Border control is surely the perogative of some sort of indigenous group claiming political supremacy over some land?

> What gives you the right to say only hard working people who contribute get to move here?

> ?????

Did you read what I said?  I said I don't agree with race or religion being used to discriminate; I think countries as political constructs should be secular and non-racially discriminating, so race is irrelevant and religion is a solely personal matter.  I didn't say anything about other bases.

I guess you believe in fully open borders?  Which is a great idea but somewhat impractical.

Post edited at 15:57
TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think countries as political constructs should be secular and non-racially discriminating, so race is irrelevant and religion is a solely personal matter.

Lovely idea, but I don't think there is one state in the world that comes remotely close to fitting that ideal.

 

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

It's not just about 'race' (which is a problematic phrase in so many ways) but about nationality and nationalism (note the small N).

I was taken to Twickenham on March 17th, my first match and while I didn't understand the game fully it was very interesting watching the two tribes of fans: Same 'race', same interests, similar religion and I think same social class but totally different.

The point is, nations are the product of many things, shared history, language, myths and sagas and most importantly identity and to suggest that you can discount this is fallacy on stilts.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> You presumed Nick Cohen was Jewish and complained that he only wrote about British politics and hadn't condemned a racist Israeli rabbi as I remember it.

But that's not "5) If you think every Jew needs to condemn Isreal in every tweet, comment etc.,..... "

Is it?

I did think he was Jewish yes and admitted as much, but I'm not sure that makes me anti-Semitic either.

If his name was Popadopolos and I thought he was Greek what would that make me?

Carless - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

 

> Answers.

> Mostly a's, you're fine

> Mostly b's, you're slipping into the fringes of anti-Semitism.

> Mostly c's, yes, you're an anti-Semite.

> Mostly d's: you're a leading left wing politician.

Many thanks for your definition of how the interpretation of the answers should be

But does a mixture of answers imply that someone may have thought about all sides of the situation a bit more than "Mostly a's, you're fine"

 

Stuart en Écosse - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

I wasn't until I read your quiz but you've tipped me over the edge bignose*.

 

* ;o)

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> But anyway, since you're here: what do the actions of a few settlers int he West Bank have to do with anti-Semitic attitudes in the UK

I don't know. Why did three of your initial questions mention Palestine if your concern is about anti-semitism in the UK?

ps. It's not the actions 'of a few settlers'; it's the actions of a government-sanctioned enforced settlement policy, enforced by the IDF.

Mike Highbury - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> Because the other two threads have got out of hand I thought my Mitzvah for the day would be to give you goys, by way of a little fun quiz, a bit of a guide.

> 1. I have associated with anti-Semites over the years

I think, oh f*ck, I'm back on UKC again.

Shabbat Shalom

M

 

Lusk - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

It's a minefield out there, folks.
Say the slightest wrong thing about a sub-set of some minority or have any opinion that differs from theirs, and you'll be instantly labeled with being anti this, that or the other, racist, xenophobic or some kind of bigot.

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

I think you have difficulty reading / understanding: the point the questions and answers is to demonstrate that there's a lot of #everdayanti-semitism whether it is unthinking or deliberate and that much of this is dismissed or more likely on the left justified by reference what is happening in Israel (often with blatantly false allegations).

Very few will come out and express clearly anti-Semitic views (although there's plenty on the left that seem to have no such reservation) but it is the insidious and snide anti-Semitism that is now more pervasive and until this is recognised the left will still be a sewer for the poison of anti-Semitism.

 

 

 

 

Jon Stewart - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> Border control is surely the perogative of some sort of indigenous group claiming political supremacy over some land?

No it isn't. It's the prerogative of citizens of a democracy. Immigration controls discriminate citizens from other non-citizens under various bureaucratic rules that aren't anything to do with race or religion.

 

 

Jon Stewart - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> Lovely idea, but I don't think there is one state in the world that comes remotely close to fitting that ideal.

Hence "should". So which direction shall we try to move in? Do you want to see increasing tribalism, with governments representing groups of one particular ethnic and religious make-up? A separate nation state for every self-identifying tribal group? Or do you think that secular governments that promote equal rights and do not favour one racial or religious group are a better idea?

EarlyBird - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

That's odd as DC's comment was obviously intended as a humorous one within the context of this thread - it made me laugh at least.

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

You've argued that the Israeli state has no particular bias in favour of Jews. Therefore criticism of the Israeli state cannot be anti-Semitic, surely?

It's a cheap trick to try to discredit genuine concern about the actions of the Israeli state to label any criticism as 'anti-semitic'.

I'm not a left-leaning Corbynite. Nor right wing. I'm a bleeding-heart liberal. I suppose they're all anti-semites, too?

Dr.S at work - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Lusk:

> It's a minefield out there, folks.

> Say the slightest wrong thing about a sub-set of some minority or have any opinion that differs from theirs, and you'll be instantly labeled with being anti this, that or the other, racist, xenophobic or some kind of bigot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W9rHKhchx0

captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to EarlyBird:

> it made me laugh at least.

Well, if I'm honest, it amused mildly too (hence my later comment). But I didn't want to give this tedious person the satisfaction...

jondo - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> Don't be so anti-Semitic, it's not Israel, it's not even the IDF, it's the bullets you should be blaming, the IDF are only firing them and the Israeli government are only telling the soldier to fire them. Your logic is very twisted if you're blaming Israel for this.

im sure you would be cheering your arse off if israeli citizens would be blown up instead. 

go on tell another crappy joke... (whats the definition of.... ?)

btw, happy israel independence day (70 years) this week. hopefully you and your bds, hamas, hizbollah and iranian pals dont get what you wish for in the future, which is the complete annihilation of israel and its people.

Post edited at 20:26
jondo - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

> You've argued that the Israeli state has no particular bias in favour of Jews. Therefore criticism of the Israeli state cannot be anti-Semitic, surely?

> It's a cheap trick to try to discredit genuine concern about the actions of the Israeli state to label any criticism as 'anti-semitic'.

> I'm not a left-leaning Corbynite. Nor right wing. I'm a bleeding-heart liberal. I suppose they're all anti-semites, too?

no, they are just naive idiots.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to jondo:

> im sure you would be cheering your arse off if israeli citizens would be blown up instead. 

There didn't have to be an instead though, did there, since the Pallies are all on there little bit of land, the worst they've done is make a noise and get in the way of some Israeli bullets.

> go on tell another crappy joke... (whats the definition of.... ?)

> btw, happy israel independence day (70 years) this week. hopefully you and your bds, hamas, hizbollah and iranian pals dont get what you wish for in the future, which is the complete annihilation of israel and its people.

Once again you, insinuate things, I never said any of what you've intimated.

But let me ask you this question, you might even be able to answer this one, have any of the Palestinians killed so far been on Israeli territory?

Here's another easy one for you, how many Israeli's have been injured in these "clashes".

Post edited at 20:37
captain paranoia - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to jondo:

> no, they are just naive idiots.

As opposed to dogmatic idiots...?

jondo - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> There didn't have to be an instead though, did there, since the Pallies are all on there little bit of land, the worst they've done is make a noise and get in the way of some Israeli bullets.

you dont even deny it... at least theres some honesty to the murderous hatred...

> Once again you, insinuate things, I never said any of what you've intimated.

ha, good one.

> But let me ask you this question, you might even be able to answer this one, have any of the Palestinians killed so far been on Israeli territory?

stupid question. i can try to kill someone just beyond a fence, would still be attempted murder.

> Here's another easy one for you, how many Israeli's have been injured in these "clashes".

another idiotic question. 

you would have them do nothing until they are killed, because... well israeli lives are worthless to you. of course hamas values its citizens so much that is pays them to go to the border, and forces bus drivers to drop them there en mass , then it hides armed militants between them so the protesters hopefully get shot and not the armed guys..  but thats beside the point right ? because... you like hamas.

 

Post edited at 20:52
jondo - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > no, they are just naive idiots.

> As opposed to dogmatic idiots...?

oooh.. got me there paranoia old chap ... got me bad.

krikoman - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to jondo:

> you dont even deny it... at least theres some honesty to the murderous hatred...

> ha, good one.

> stupid question. i can try to kill someone just beyond a fence, would still be attempted murder.

> another idiotic question. 

> you would have them do nothing until they are killed, because... well israeli lives are worthless to you. of course hamas values its citizens so much that is pays them to go to the border, and forces bus drivers to drop the there en mass , then it hides armed militants between them so the protesters hopefully get shot and not the armed guys..  but thats beside the point right ? because... you like hamas.

Didn't think you could answer any of the questions.

Stones against snipers, tanks and helicopters.

And of course the journalist who was killed was a Hamas spy, so he deserved to die. Pity about any trial though eh?

I have no idea of who you so easily insinuate people are anti-Semitic, and then turn a blind eye to what's so obvious to the rest of the world.

I'll try again and reiterate, I'm no supporter of Hamas, but this has been a fish in the barrel slaughter, against things that "might" have happened. And world has turned it's back, again. Meanwhile according to you it has nothing to do with the Israeli government or the IDF, the victims are ALL to blame. How many times have we heard this?

jondo - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to krikoman:

> Didn't think you could answer any of the questions.

answered all of them.

> Stones against snipers, tanks and helicopters.

you were there , were you ?

> And of course the journalist who was killed was a Hamas spy, so he deserved to die. Pity about any trial though eh?

if he filmed troops movements as a hamas captain, then he is a legitimate target.

show me a law that contradicts that.

> I have no idea of who you so easily insinuate people are anti-Semitic, and then turn a blind eye to what's so obvious to the rest of the world.

your sentence makes no sense as usual. 

as in 'rest of the world' you mean 'the rest of my world , which is the BDS'.

> I'll try again and reiterate, I'm no supporter of Hamas, but this has been a fish in the barrel slaughter, against things that "might" have happened. And world has turned it's back, again. Meanwhile according to you it has nothing to do with the Israeli government or the IDF, the victims are ALL to blame. How many times have we heard this?

go try to convince someone else please. you and hamas have similar goals and would be happy with the same things : israel of the map.

 

TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Well 1) that's not the case in all the non-democratic countries or countries that are democratic but even more homogeneous than the UK is. And 2) who finds it easier to get a visa to the UK, an Australian or an Eritrean? Or even a Nigerian, if you want to look compare commonwealth to commonwealth countries.

States are imagined communities, but ethnicity, religion and shared cultural heritage allows for that imagining.

TobyA on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to jondo:

You really aren't making much sense now.  

Jon Stewart - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

> Well 1) that's not the case in all the non-democratic countries or countries that are democratic but even more homogeneous than the UK is.

Sorry, I made the assumption that you were talking about border controls *like ours* and trying to imply that *we* employ them as a mechanism for claiming political our supremacy over the land *by virtue of being indigenous*. I'm saying that our border controls are an economic and bureaucratic system which protect the citizens' economic opportunities. 

> And 2) who finds it easier to get a visa to the UK, an Australian or an Eritrean? Or even a Nigerian, if you want to look compare commonwealth to commonwealth countries.

The relevant question is, what are the criteria? They're very complicated, they serve economic ends are blind to ethnicity and religion. Some of the criteria depend upon deals between countries, and yes, we do have more deals with rich white folk than poor black folk. They're a result of our history. There is an argument to say that hiding behind the economic criteria is an agenda to keep Britain white, but it's not a strong one!

> States are imagined communities, but ethnicity, religion and shared cultural heritage allows for that imagining.

I'm not sure I know what that means, sorry! I think that the idea of a nation being tied together by ethnicity, religion and cultural heritage (if that's what you're saying) is about a century out of date. Look at London - it's totally British, but not because of shared ethnicity, religion and cultural heritage of its people.

Post edited at 22:06
Sophie G. - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to TobyA:

Here I am being anti-Semitic again, posting more footage of IDF soldiers murdering Palestinians.

Obviously my posting this is clear evidence that the problems of the middle east are all essentially about my attitudes, and not at all about what Netanyahu's government does. Obviously anyone who criticises the Netanyahu government is virtually an SS member, just as anyone who criticises Theresa May's government clearly hates all Brits.

And obviously the fact that I think it's bad when Palestinians are murdered (as they are all the time) clearly implies that I can't possibly think it's bad when Israelis are murdered (as they are sometimes).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aHroc8Jwm4

bouldery bits - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

Thought I'd post this for balance:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzeLrvolcoI 

birdie num num - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Has anyone here ever heard the one about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Jew, on holiday in Rome?...

Lusk - on 13 Apr 2018
In reply to birdie num num:

> Has anyone here ever heard the one about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Jew, on holiday in Rome?...


I say old man, is that a chip on your shoulder?
Is it feck, he's just too tight to get a round in.

L David Cohen - on 14 Apr 2018
In reply to Sophie G.:

Your use of the word 'murdered' gives the game away: for a killing to be murder it has to be illegal and using the phrase seeks to infer the actions of the IDF are illegal , which leads to the conclusion that the actions of the state of Israel are illegal, therefore the state can be condemned.

The second para reinforces this, no one is saying criticising Bibi is, by want of proper criticism alone, a Nazi and seeking to suggest that it does is a mean of deflecting, defending and providing a safe space for anti-Semitism.

Note the IDF has prosecuted and jailed soldiers for acting outside the ROE.

Ratfeeder - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> Your use of the word 'murdered' gives the game away: for a killing to be murder it has to be illegal and using the phrase seeks to infer the actions of the IDF are illegal , which leads to the conclusion that the actions of the state of Israel are illegal, therefore the state can be condemned.

The state of Israel has committed many acts which are illegal under international law, including its occupation of the West Bank and its alteration of the borders that were agreed in 1948. It is possible to condemn these illegal acts without being anti-Semitic and without denying that the state of Israel has the right to exist.

Mike Highbury - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to Ratfeeder:

> The state of Israel has committed many acts which are illegal under international law, including its occupation of the West Bank and its alteration of the borders that were agreed in 1948.

You are familiar with the '48 borders, I guess?

L David Cohen - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

I am always surprised as to how many experts on public international law and the law of war are suddenly available to opine on the subject when the issue of the borders of Israel come up for discussion.

It is always surprising that those experts forget the wars of aggression launched against Israel.

None of this has any bearing on anti-Semitism per se: however it does serve to demonstrate the fallacy and malign motives of the commentators as would a homeopath trying to argue with an oncologist with regard to chemo regimes.

Eric9Points - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

So your position is that because of the 67 and Yom Kipur wars the state of Israel has the right to steal Palestinians land, their water and to trample over their human rights.

Fair enough, it's good to know where you're coming from.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/jewish-settlers-torch-al-sheikh-saada-mosque-activist-180414135930526.html

Post edited at 15:31
grooved rib - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

Anti-Semitism is hostility to, prejudice or discrimination against Jews. Palestine doesn't have to come in to it.

It's also a very poorly-formed expression, as Semetic describes a family of languages (of which Arabic is one!)

Ratfeeder - on 15 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> I am always surprised as to how many experts on public international law and the law of war are suddenly available to opine on the subject when the issue of the borders of Israel come up for discussion.

> It is always surprising that those experts forget the wars of aggression launched against Israel.

> None of this has any bearing on anti-Semitism per se: however it does serve to demonstrate the fallacy and malign motives of the commentators as would a homeopath trying to argue with an oncologist with regard to chemo regimes.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20160610-49-facts-about-israels-occupation-of-the-west-bank-and-gaza-strip/

krikoman - on 16 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

> I am always surprised as to how many experts on public international law and the law of war are suddenly available to opine on the subject when the issue of the borders of Israel come up for discussion.

no country is usually allowed to kill people not on their territory. Like I posted to Jondo, how many IDF, or other Israeli's, have been injured in the latest, I'm loathe to call them clashes, because it's more like target practice. How many IDF dead?

How many Palestinians, have been killed on Israeli territory? (Providing we're using today's boundaries and not some future, or hoped for boundary)

krikoman - on 16 Apr 2018
In reply to David Cohen:

For the original OP.

How come you needed to create a new persona to post this?

You've obviously been pretty active on UKC previously, it quite clear your not a learner, you seem to know a great deal about people.

Why hide behind anonymity?

Trevers - on 11:38 Mon
In reply to David Cohen:

Just gonna leave my $0.02, having browsed this thread. The definition of antisemitism, as proposed by the OP, appears to be applicable to anybody who isn't an apologist for the aggression and violence of the Israeli state. By that definition, I guess I'm an antisemite.

Neil Williams - on 13:01 Mon
In reply to Trevers:

FWIW the other definition linked to above from Twitter is much more reasonable and my answers to all the questions on that one make it clear I am not an anti-Semite.

I therefore believe the poster is pursuing an agenda not simply confined to the opposition of anti-Semitism.

In reply to David Cohen:

b, c, b, d, a. Averages out at b-/c+.

Well, you learn something new every day. I did not realise I apparently hate jews.

Post edited at 17:12
GrahamD - on 17:37 Mon
In reply to David Cohen:

I'm confused.  Most of these questions rely on the person answering the questions sharing the same definition of "anti-semetic" as the author, which rather makes the questionnaire a bit circular.  If you can understand the questions, you already know your answer. 

Timmd on 18:49 Mon
In reply to David Cohen:

> Perhaps it is just the hypocrisy of the left, you know the sort, the offensive comments about Tory women being fair game, making jibes because Eric Pickles is fat while ignoring or more likely justifying the offensive comments made by those on the left.

I think people of all 'types' have double standards like that to be honest.

TheDrunkenBakers - on 18:53 Mon
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

> b, c, b, d, a. Averages out at b-/c+.

> Well, you learn something new every day. I did not realise I apparently hate jews.

Well, some do have peculiar hairstyles though, don't they?

mark s - on 19:13 Mon
In reply to David Cohen:

don't need a quiz to know where I stand on Israel. 

mark s - on 19:13 Mon
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

always groups of them at the airport

MikeTS - on 19:22 Mon
In reply to cb294:

 

> I do not think the Jewish community do themselves much of a favour by denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic, as your post unfortunately also does.

You are setting up a strawman.  No rational person has problems with criticising Israel policies. Most Israelis do! 

But if you so.

You must be accurate.

You must be seen to explicitly criticise the behaviour you see in Israel if you also see it in the policies of other countries. 

You must avoid classic anti-semitic metaphors and imagery (like blood libel)

 

Timmd on 19:39 Mon
In reply to David Cohen:

> Quite simply yes.

> The reason is simple, there is no policy of genocide or apartheid.  Reiterating these tropes is another dishonest way of demonising Israel and evinces a prejudice against Israel which is not in evidence against other states.

> That a Jew might say something does not mean that it is not anti-Semitic.  Using this argument is a classic example of deflection.

But, but, but, but, look at how Palestinians are being treated? Being removed from the land which has been in their families for generations for another people, seems just like something which could be out of apartheid era South Africa, or Zimbabwe even. You can't think it's fair for this to happen? 

Post edited at 19:45
winhill - on 22:23 Mon
In reply to GrahamD:

> I'm confused. 

Definitely

> Most of these questions rely on the person answering the questions sharing the same definition of "anti-semetic" as the author

No they don't, they don't rely on the person answering the questions as having a definition of anti-semitism.

 

cb294 - on 22:40 Mon
In reply to MikeTS:

As has been argued even in this thread above (called the "standard trope of the antisemite"), many Jews, especially on the right, deliberately conflate criticism of the policies of the current Israeli government and their US enablers with racism against Jews.

No easier way to invite a backlash, especially amongst otherwise generally positively inclined political groups, as my Israeli friends (none of whom obviously voted for Netanyahu) are well aware of.

CB

krikoman - on 08:37 Tue
In reply to MikeTS:

> You are setting up a strawman.  No rational person has problems with criticising Israel policies. Most Israelis do! 

But that doesn't give them the right to call it anti-Semitism, and everybody, including you, should call out the false accusations.

> But if you so.

> You must be accurate.

I agree, but when a discussion start off about the IDF or the Israeli government, we all know who we're talking about, so like most conversations you shouldn't have to keep reiterating "Israeli government" simply to prevent accusations of anti-Semitism. We're having a conversation, you know who I'm talking about, even if I use the "they" word, unless you're being purposefully vague, if we've been talking about the IDF, I don't suddenly mean all Jews. (This isn't specifically directed at you, by the way).

> You must be seen to explicitly criticise the behaviour you see in Israel if you also see it in the policies of other countries. 

See above.

> You must avoid classic anti-semitic metaphors and imagery (like blood libel)

I think most people do, or at least try to.

 

GrahamD - on 10:13 Tue
In reply to winhill:

> Definitely

> No they don't, they don't rely on the person answering the questions as having a definition of anti-semitism.

They do.  All apart from Q2.

Trangia on 17:18 Tue
In reply to birdie num num:

> Has anyone here ever heard the one about the Englishman, the Irishman and the Jew, on holiday in Rome?...

Go on then

L David Cohen - on 18:31 Tue
In reply to cb294:

None so blind.

If you cannot see how making accusations of, for example, genocide are false and motivated by more than a critique of the policies of the government well  . . . 


Ohh and as for the name, of course I really am Moshe Abraham Goldstein.

In reply to David Cohen:

> If you cannot see how making accusations of, for example, genocide are false and motivated by more than a critique of the policies of the government well

It truly astounds me that someone can think a critical position of a nations foreign policy, with or without hyperbole, is by extension an anti semitic position simply because that nation is predominantly inhabited by those of the Jewish faith. 

Presumably you'd also feel that because I think el-Sisi is corrupt I am by extension Islamophobic.

Post edited at 18:45
wintertree - on 18:52 Tue
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

> It truly astounds me that someone can think a critical position of a nations foreign policy, with or without hyperbole, is by extension an anti semitic position simply because that nation is predominantly inhabited by those of the Jewish faith. 

You must have been lucky enough to miss the many occasions on UKC where criticism of Islam has led to some posters being repeatedly accused of racism by a similar ‘logic’.

 

krikoman - on 18:58 Tue
In reply to David Cohen:

> None so blind.

> If you cannot see how making accusations of, for example, genocide are false and motivated by more than a critique of the policies of the government well  . . . 

> Ohh and as for the name, of course I really am Moshe Abraham Goldstein.


Are you sure you're not Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu of Safed

While people are tearing into the Labour party for some of the stupid thing people have said, and rightly so in some instances. This fella is still at large and still a Rabbi and meeting with our MPs!!

birdie num num - on 22:07 Tue
In reply to Trangia:

I'll try to keep it short.....

An Englisman, an Irishman and a Jew on the last evening of their holiday in Rome are heading back to their hotel after a few beers, and in a back alley they come across a little bundle covered in a blanket...

Upon pulling back the blanket, they discover that it's the Pope, and he's dead, an empty bottle of cheap grappa still clutched in his hand.

After a bit of discussion, they decide to keep him covered up, but bundle him in a taxi and take him back to the Vatican whereupon the officials swear them to secrecy but tell them that they will announce in the morning that the Pope has caught a cold and then on Friday make the sad announcement of his death.

On the plane home, the Jew says to the other two, 'Listen fellas, here's a good idea...I reckon we'd get a good price off Ladbrokes on a punt that the Pope's dead by Friday..how about it? whaddya think?'

So they all agree to have a go, then meet up in the boozer the following Friday to compare winnings.

When Friday finally arrives, the Jew turns up at the pub driving a golden Rolls Royce a multi-millionaire and the Englishman arrives in an Aston Martin, a millionaire.

Some time later, the Irishman arrives, on the bus, penniless. The Jew has to lend him a couple of quid to buy a beer.

'What happened Patrick?' they say to him.... 'the thing was a nap.. you couldn't fail!'

"Ah well' he says...'I got a bit greedy...I did a double with the Archbishop of Canterbury'

Ratfeeder - on 22:15 Tue
In reply to David Cohen:

> None so blind.

> If you cannot see how making accusations of, for example, genocide are false and motivated by more than a critique of the policies of the government well  . . . 

The definition of 'genocide' in the OED is 'the deliberate extermination of a people or nation'. There's a slight ambiguity in this definition in that it isn't clear whether or not the deliberate extermination applies exclusively to an entire people or nation. However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that, strictly speaking, the word 'genocide' should be used only in that sense. Technically, then, Israel has not actually committed genocide with respect to the Palestinian people.

However, what Israel did do (in 1967) was to ethnically cleanse and destroy several Palestinian villages. Furthermore, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International say that 'Palestinians face systematic discrimination merely because of their race, ethnicity and national origin'. Added to this, the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination said, in 2012, that Israeli policies in the Occupied Territories violate the prohibition of 'racial segregation and apartheid'.

So, while Israel may not be guilty of genocide in the full, strict sense of the word, it is guilty of racially motivated mass-murder, of systematic racial discrimination and of apartheid.  

While, as self-appointed judge of the tacit prejudices of the rest of us, you posture as a hyper-sensitive detector of every whiff and nuance of what, by your own artificial and distorted criteria, you deem to be anti-Semitism, you are obviously blind to your own profound and entrenched prejudice. Perhaps the best thing you could do, instead of casting accusations at others, is to take a look in the mirror.

winhill - on 22:47 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Other Jews who don't agree with you on matters regarding Israel's politics on the regional stage are anti-Semites?

> What a load of nonsense, frankly.  I think it is you who doesn't understand what anti-Semitism is, or you do understand what it is but seek to hijack it to your own political ends.

Of course Jews can exhibit behaviour that could be considered anti-semitic.

You don't still call black people nigger because you heard Eddie Murphy say it in Beverley Hills Cop, do you? We usually have a sense that there may be some things that are permissible within a group that aren't outside of it.

Similarly, we allow that a black person Rio Ferdinand may be racist to another black man, Ashley Cole and was fined £45,000.

Anyone who is familiar with the Race and Religious Hatred Act from way back in 2006 should see that allows for in-group racial hatred as well. Like the muslim guy who was found guilty of a racially aggravated offence for decorating his muslim neighbour's garden with pig entrails. Or for the that matter the muslim dentist disciplined by the GDC (twice!) for insisting that his patients wear a hijab.

It's an appalling lack of understanding to suggest that because a Jew said it, we can all say it without being racist.

Neil Williams - on 22:57 Tue
In reply to winhill:

> It's an appalling lack of understanding to suggest that because a Jew said it, we can all say it without being racist.

But it is not racist to criticise the policies of a Government, unless the criticism is purely based on race.

winhill - on 23:13 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

> But it is not racist to criticise the policies of a Government, unless the criticism is purely based on race.

That's just pointless.

 

cb294 - on 08:09 Wed
In reply to Ratfeeder:

Thanks, you have spared me from typing a reply to the idiotic post from Tue, 18.31.

CB

cb294 - on 08:16 Wed
In reply to David Cohen:

I am out of here. There is no point discussing with someone so blinded by their own racism that they cannot see the blatant similarity between forcing black South Africans into homelands and ghettos during the Apartheid regime, and the Israeli policy of illegally blockading the Gaza strip and building illegal settlements on the West Bank that monopolize water sources and cut the Palestinian land into small, economically non viable, discrete parcels.

I am also extremely angry at your insinuation that I had accused Israel (or as you are wont to equate, Jews in general) of genocide.

CB

Neil Williams - on 08:52 Wed
In reply to winhill:

> That's just pointless.

Eh?

richnoggan - on 11:29 Wed
In reply to David Cohen:

Hello David

I agree Israel is not engaged in genocide. Those saying it is will often be motivated by anti semitism, but some will simply be disgusted by what is happening and exagerate or use words incorrectly.

Anyhow, what I'm interested to know from you is this: what criticism of Israel do you think is not anti semitic? Obviously you have your own views on Israel, I have no idea what these are, but presumably people can be more critical of Israel than you before it gets into anti semitism, I want to understand how far you think that goes.

For example, as a not very well informed observer - 

- I don't see that comparissons with South Africa automatically stray into anti semitism - it seems to me that there are similarities, and whatever the wrongs of the otherside, some of what Israel does it wrong. 

- I do think that *some* of the focus on Labourt party/left wing anti semitism is motivated by damaging Corbyn (not that he helps himself), and that it's likely right wing equivalents are much worse.

- I do think lines between anti semitism and anti zionism can be pretty blurred, grey, hard to define and it does seem like some people try to push that line to prevent criticism of Israel.

- I think answer d) to your first question is entirely reasonable. For progress people do need to speak to people on allsides. (Whether it's perhaps a disingenuos answer coming from Corbyn or whoever is another question.)

- The corbyn mural - when I first looked at it, I didn't see the problem. Then I thought about it and I do see the problem, but lots of people just simply don't think about that kind of thing. They just see some bankers rather than Jewish bankers.

- I think most of the time, most people just think pretty much nothing at all about Jewish people or anti semitism. That's not to say we shouldn't worry about this stuff - we should - it's just to explain how people when they do come accross stuff about Israel v Pelstine might say things that you'd class as anti semtic from a pretty honest, and not discriminatory place. Particualrly if those people are a bit left wing and have a tendency to be for the less powerful side.

I'm open to persuasion otherwise on all things above - I may well be wrong on all. But if I am wrong, it really really is an honest mistake and not based on any antipathy towards Jewish people whatsoever. 

Sorry that's a bit long!

 

 

Post edited at 11:44
jondo - on 11:53 Wed
In reply to TobyA:

Dear TobyA so far you have not shown anti Israeli tendencies like most UKC posters here... 

richnoggan - on 12:44 Wed
In reply to jondo:

> you would have them do nothing until they are killed, because... well israeli lives are worthless to you.

I doubt he really does think Israeli lives are worthless or even worth less than Palestinian ones.

I think it's quite clear, though, that to Israel, Palestinian lives are worth much much less than Israeli ones. The amount of Palestinians killed is much higher than the number of Israeli deaths. I'm quite sure that Israel could reduce Palistinian deaths by a lot, at the cost of many less Israeli deaths, but they choose not to.

You might argues states must protect their people first, and Israel is justified in what it does. But it's hard to get a way from the fact that they're willing to kill a lot of Palestinains to save one Israeli

Of course, the converse would be true for Hamas. They're willing to lose a lot of Palestinian lives to kill one Israeli. This is worse, of course. But I think that with the way Israel treats Pasiltinians it's pretty inevitablethat you'll get organisations like Hamas. (Although, all a bit Chicken or Egg)

 

 

 

 

TobyA on 13:01 Wed
In reply to jondo:

You can put me on the list for anti-Israeli government tendencies though if you wish, what with at least it feeling like Bibi has been there forever. 

jondo - on 13:11 Wed
In reply to richnoggan:

> I doubt he really does think Israeli lives are worthless or even worth less than Palestinian ones.

> I think it's quite clear, though, that to Israel, Palestinian lives are worth much much less than Israeli ones. The amount of Palestinians killed is much higher than the number of Israeli deaths. I'm quite sure that Israel could reduce Palistinian deaths by a lot, at the cost of many less Israeli deaths, but they choose not to.

Quite unclear what you base your sureness on other than some general view accumulated by news impressions  

> You might argues states must protect their people first, and Israel is justified in what it does. But it's hard to get a way from the fact that they're willing to kill a lot of Palestinains to save one Israeli

Willing is not the same as obliged to. The former is baseless . Quite the contrary when violence and terrorism isn't there, Israel has a long record of medical assistance . 

> Of course, the converse would be true for Hamas. They're willing to lose a lot of Palestinian lives to kill one Israeli. This is worse, of course. But I think that with the way Israel treats Pasiltinians it's pretty inevitablethat you'll get organisations like Hamas. (Although, all a bit Chicken or Egg)

It's interesting you equate Israel to hamas  where Israel is trying to protect it's citizens  and hamas is trying to sacrifice it's citizens.. 

jondo - on 13:12 Wed
In reply to TobyA:

> You can put me on the list for anti-Israeli government tendencies though if you wish, what with at least it feeling like Bibi has been there forever. 

I  couldn’t care less about your tendencies  I don't have a 'list', was simply stating the impression I got as opposed to 90% of the tendencies here. 

captain paranoia - on 13:22 Wed
In reply to jondo:

> Dear TobyA so far you have not shown anti Israeli tendencies like most UKC posters here...

Well, I guess that accusation is at least an improvement from 'everyone is an anti-semite'.

But I imagine that what you think of as 'anti-Israeli' is 'wanting the state of Israel to be wiped from the face of the Earth'. Whereas the reality is that the 'anti-Israeli' felling here might actually be 'I don't like some of the policies of the Israeli state'.

jondo - on 14:24 Wed
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Well, I guess that accusation is at least an improvement from 'everyone is an anti-semite'.

Where did I say everyone is an anti semite? If you read any post of mine you would see I said almost no one hear sounds like an anti semite. 

> But I imagine that what you think of as 'anti-Israeli' is 'wanting the state of Israel to be wiped from the face of the Earth'. Whereas the reality is that the 'anti-Israeli' felling here might actually be 'I don't like some of the policies of the Israeli state'.

Far from what you describe as reality, the vibe here is 'israel is the most racist  criminal state on earth and should be treated worse than Russia, China, Sudan  and Saudi Arabia combined'  

Has anyone here boycotted a Chinese product made in Tibet? No,  of course not. 

You see, the pa has spent millions in propaganda in Europe for the past twenty plus years. All those donations straight back into the pa 'israel is a monster  machine. Have to hand it to them though, they won on that battlefield  

 

 

 

Post edited at 14:43
Andy Hardy on 14:49 Wed
In reply to jondo:

I guess the problem is encapsulated in the following exchange:

L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018

In reply to winhill:

> Yes, I've read them but how on earth does it equal "denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic"

It's the standard trope of the anti-Semite.

I read these threads with a bit of a sigh, because you know from post 1 where post 100 will be. Whilst it's true that every anti Semite will be critical of Israel, not every criticism of Israel is by an anti Semite. The point where you draw the line to me is that anti-Semites will want the destruction of Israel. Critics of Israeli policies may (for example) want Israel to end the occupation, or stop settling on Palestinian land etc.

jondo - on 15:09 Wed
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I guess the problem is encapsulated in the following exchange:

> L David Cohen - on 13 Apr 2018

> In reply to winhill:

> It's the standard trope of the anti-Semite.

> I read these threads with a bit of a sigh, because you know from post 1 where post 100 will be. Whilst it's true that every anti Semite will be critical of Israel, not every criticism of Israel is by an anti Semite. The point where you draw the line to me is that anti-Semites will want the destruction of Israel. Critics of Israeli policies may (for example) want Israel to end the occupation, or stop settling on Palestinian land etc.

Plenty of people who are not anti semites want the destruction of Israel. For instance,  the far left will rejoice at the idea. Some will deny it, even here because they consider themselves 'Liberal and humane' , although their posts suggest otherwise. 

Andy Hardy on 15:20 Wed
In reply to jondo:

The idea that the "far left" (whoever "they" are) want to destroy Israel just appears to be rabid tin foil hattery, so I'll bow out.

Neil Williams - on 15:49 Wed
In reply to jondo:

> Dear TobyA so far you have not shown anti Israeli tendencies like most UKC posters here... 

I'm very much anti the conduct of the Israeli Government.  This has nothing to do with individual Israeli people any more than my dislike of Trump and his policies and approach would suggest I am against individual Americans.

richnoggan - on 16:42 Wed
In reply to jondo:

> Quite unclear what you base your sureness on other than some general view accumulated by news impressions . Willing is not the same as obliged to. The former is baseless . Quite the contrary when violence and terrorism isn't there, Israel has a long record of medical assistance.

Okay, so do you think I'm wrong on the relative numbers, or do you think I'm wrong that Israel could kill a lot less without much additional loss of Israeli life?

> It's interesting you equate Israel to hamas  where Israel is trying to protect it's citizens  and hamas is trying to sacrifice it's citizens.. 

I think I'm pretty clearly saying that what Hamas does is worse. I said this to make clear that I wasn't saying that Israel is as bad as Hamas - but also noting I think Hamas is inevitable in current circumstances. If Palestine was more powerful and acted as Israel does now, I expect there would be an Israeli version of Hamas.

jondo - on 18:25 Wed
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> The idea that the "far left" (whoever "they" are) want to destroy Israel just appears to be rabid tin foil hattery, so I'll bow out.

really ? check out some of the momentum members anti israeli (and anti semite crap). 

jondo - on 18:30 Wed
In reply to richnoggan:

> Okay, so do you think I'm wrong on the relative numbers, or do you think I'm wrong that Israel could kill a lot less without much additional loss of Israeli life?

define 'without much additional...' . the idf is commited to protect its own citizens . that isnt a war crime. the IDF also has a code of conduct and an ethical code which is probably online. obviously soldiers that breach those codes should be held accountable by the IDF.  does hamas have a code of conduct or hizbollah ? or dare i say the iran revolutionary guards.. ?

> I think I'm pretty clearly saying that what Hamas does is worse. I said this to make clear that I wasn't saying that Israel is as bad as Hamas - but also noting I think Hamas is inevitable in current circumstances. If Palestine was more powerful and acted as Israel does now, I expect there would be an Israeli version of Hamas.

well, we are all humans. i do not believe that fundamentally one human is superior in morals to another. however ,as societies and cultures there are vast differences. how the palestinians got to where there are is another story , i certainly arent blaming them alone. 

in what you say , you are an exception rather than the norm on UKC, as the likes of krikoman et al, have a strong belief that israel is worse than hamas.

winhill - on 19:39 Wed
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Eh?

You were jew vbaiting by claiming that a Jew didn't know what anti-semitism is because in your very limited understanding of racism you mistakenly thought that races couldn't be racist to each other.

I pointed out that you were wrong, in quite simple terms I thought.

You replied with some pointless shit about governments.

L David Cohen - on 20:12 Wed
In reply to jondo:

The soldiers of the IDF are held accountable for their actions, Hamas less so.

The sad fact is that if you're a Jew, are suspected of being a Jew i.e have a Jew'ish' surname (or even look Jewish) those on the (hard) left too often feel it reasonable to open a torrent of abuse on the basis of their own factually flawed but solipsistic definitions of what is correct and proper and what is not.

There is much to criticise about the policies of the government of the state of Israel, but sadly the anti-Semitic left seem unable to do so without dissembling, twisting and using deliberately offensive and provactive tropes and canards.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is of course the produce of those who control the media and international capitalism. <saaarcasm>

winhill - on 20:24 Wed
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'll miss that insightfulness about British politics.

Trangia on 20:32 Wed
In reply to birdie num num:

 

> "Ah well' he says...'I got a bit greedy...I did a double with the Archbishop of Canterbury'

LOL! I liked it

Neil Williams - on 22:07 Wed
In reply to winhill:

> You were jew vbaiting by claiming that a Jew didn't know what anti-semitism is because in your very limited understanding of racism you mistakenly thought that races couldn't be racist to each other.

No, I wasn't.

> You replied with some pointless shit about governments.

Because you misunderstood what I said.

winhill - on 22:26 Wed
In reply to Neil Williams:

> No, I wasn't.

Oh yes you were

> Because you misunderstood what I said.

Oh no I didn't.

 

winhill - on 22:36 Wed
In reply to Sophie G.:

> So you think it's anti-semitic to describe Israel's policy towards Palestinians as genocidal and apartheid-like? How interesting. There are many, many Jewish people who have condemned Israel's policy in just those terms, or even stronger. Do you think *they're* anti-semitic?

 

> Quite simply they're anti-semites, even though they themselves are Jewish, because they criticise Israel strongly? Then quite simply you're being silly, and quite simply I am not engaging with you any more until you grow up a bit.

 

>This David Cohen person is a troll. I suggest we ignore him.

 

> Here I am being anti-Semitic again,

How is this anything but Jew baiting?

You identify with a Christian tradition that has persecuted Jews for over 1,000 years. You live in the UK, where Jews have been murdered and banished and also in Europe, where in living memory the Jews have suffered the worst racial crime in the history of the known universe, when millions died because of racism.

And yet somehow you decide the thing to do is to laugh in their faces whilst proclaiming Here I am being anti-Semitic again.

Is this the way you speak to other races when you aggressively disagree with them about racism? Is this how you talk to Africans about the slave trade? You laugh in their faces whilst proclaiming Here I am being racist again?

If it isn't then yes, you're biased against Jews still,

Neil Williams - on 23:06 Wed
In reply to winhill:

Are you the original poster?

No Government is immune to criticism, least of all one with such a poor record as Israel's.  Conflating that with anti-Semitism is doing little but proving my point.

I fail to see in what way criticising the modern day Israeli Government is in any way connected with what happened in the past.

Post edited at 23:07
winhill - on 23:28 Wed
In reply to Neil Williams:

 

> No Government is immune to criticism,

Has it really not occurred to you that there is an opposition in Israel that is constantly critical of the Government?

No-one is saying they are anti-semitic for criticising the government.

Why do you think that people can't be racist abouttheir own race? That's the question, the point you think you're making about governments is just utter rubbish, it's pointless.

 

Cobra_Head - on 23:36 Wed
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> The idea that the "far left" (whoever "they" are) want to destroy Israel just appears to be rabid tin foil hattery, so I'll bow out.

Rabbi'd tin hattery?  OR is that anti-Semitic?

Cobra_Head - on 23:40 Wed
In reply to David Cohen:

> The soldiers of the IDF are held accountable for their actions, Hamas less so.

Try telling that to the injured bloke, who was executed by the IDF soldier, who got 9 months. Where you accountability there?

 

Neil Williams - on 23:54 Wed
In reply to winhill:

> Why do you think that people can't be racist abouttheir own race?

I don't think that, which is why this is a pointless argument.

However, I didn't think (if I recall correctly) that the particular people under discussion were being racist in the context under discussion.

Post edited at 23:54
winhill - on 23:58 Wed
In reply to Neil Williams:

I said yesterday it was pointless but you didn't understand. More importantly this is pointless:

> Other Jews who don't agree with you on matters regarding Israel's politics on the regional stage are anti-Semites?

> What a load of nonsense, frankly.  I think it is you who doesn't understand what anti-Semitism is, or you do understand what it is but seek to hijack it to your own political ends.

krikoman - on 08:58 Thu
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> Try telling that to the injured bloke, who was executed by the IDF soldier, who got 9 months. Where you accountability there?


Ha, ha, thanks for the support, and you're right of course.

Though there's plenty of other question they might answer too.

Eric9Points - on 12:49 Thu
In reply to winhill:

> Has it really not occurred to you that there is an opposition in Israel that is constantly critical of the Government?

> No-one is saying they are anti-semitic for criticising the government.


Well obviously that opposition is ineffective because Israel is still behaving abominably towards Palestinians. But no you're absolutely right we should just ignore what's going on because Israel will sort it themselves.

krikoman - on 13:38 Thu
In reply to Eric9Points:

> But no you're absolutely right we should just ignore what's going on because Israel will sort it themselves.

Another 70 years perhaps? Or is peace just around the corner? Just a few more pesky Pally's to get rid of and then we're in clover.

 

planetmarshall on 13:59 Thu
In reply to cb294:

> I do not think the Jewish community do themselves much of a favour by denouncing all criticism of Israel or even only of the Netanyahu government as antisemitic, as your post unfortunately also does.

Surely assuming that there is a single Jewish community with a single unified opinion of the state of Israel is itself anti-semitic? It's manifestly untrue for a start.

 

jondo - on 12:54 Fri
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> Try telling that to the injured bloke, who was executed by the IDF soldier, who got 9 months. Where you accountability there?

'injured bloke' who two minutes earlier tried to murder soldiers with a knife... Nice try. 

jondo - on 12:59 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> Another 70 years perhaps? Or is peace just around the corner? Just a few more pesky Pally's to get rid of and then we're in clover.

There you have it. Israel is the reason there is no peace. Israel "gets rid of Palestinians"  

Haven't heard you once condemn a terrorist attack against Israelis, though there were many car rammings and stabbings in the past years. But heard you defend the injured terrorist who was killed by a soldier at least a dozen times.

Then you are surprised people are sure you are the same as Iran? That you want Israel destroyed ? 

Graeme Alderson on 13:02 Fri
In reply to jondo:

"The presiding judge, Maya Heller, said the panel had found that Azaria’s actions had seriously harmed the values of Israeli society as a whole, as well as violating the “purity of arms” of the Israeli military’s ethical code."

from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/elor-azaria-israeli-soldier-jailed-18-months-killing-palestinian

Yes, the 'injured bloke' had attacked the IDF with a knife but they shot him, he was no longer a threat and then Azaria urdered the' injured bloke' in cold blood. Yet he only got charged with manslaughter (the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or in circumstances not amounting to murder).

Do you call that accountability?

krikoman - on 13:10 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> 'injured bloke' who two minutes earlier tried to murder soldiers with a knife... Nice try. 

But then this "professional" soldier, came back and murdered an incapacitated man. You seem to think that's OK. It's directly comparable to a girl who slaps a soldier and gets the same sentence in jail, I suppose.

You still haven't answered how many Israeli's have been injure din the lasted protests in Gaza, or how many Palestinians were injured / killed on the Israeli side of the fence?

How  come you only care about Israeli people? Isn't that a sort of reverse anti-Semitism, but we don't have a word for that do we?

Stop trying to defend the indefensible and look at what happening for a change.

If you're really that bothered about anti-Semitism, then complain about ALL injustices, instead of making excuses. Can you not see any possible link on how some people might see that you only care when it's "one of your own"?

You seem to think everyone should be very careful about their language and to be specific when criticising the Israeli government, yet you are very happy to blame the victims for being shot and absolve the IDF of  any blame.

I'm not saying this is a excuse for anti-Semitism, but even you must admit shooting people might be a little more extreme than saying "I'm glad you're on our team, you can look after the money".

You're quite happy for the photographer to be shot, because you said he was a Hamas spy, yet there was no trial, no evidence presented, he simply was, and now he's dead.

 

Post edited at 13:11
krikoman - on 13:46 Fri
jondo - on 15:00 Fri
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> "The presiding judge, Maya Heller, said the panel had found that Azaria’s actions had seriously harmed the values of Israeli society as a whole, as well as violating the “purity of arms” of the Israeli military’s ethical code."

> Yes, the 'injured bloke' had attacked the IDF with a knife but they shot him, he was no longer a threat and then Azaria urdered the' injured bloke' in cold blood. Yet he only got charged with manslaughter (the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought, or in circumstances not amounting to murder).

> Do you call that accountability?

I certainly do call that accountability. 

Now how many British soldiers got away with murder in Afghanistan ? Go on  dislike away... 

jondo - on 15:01 Fri
jondo - on 15:10 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> But then this "professional" soldier, came back and murdered an incapacitated man. You seem to think that's OK. It's directly comparable to a girl who slaps a soldier and gets the same sentence in jail, I suppose.

He was put on trial. Not liking the sentence is one thing, have you read the trial proceedings?? No  I did not think so .

That teen is a professional provocateur who has been slapping soldiers since childhood on her parents orders, which are paid by the pa. 

> You still haven't answered how many Israeli's have been injure din the lasted protests in Gaza, or how many Palestinians were injured / killed on the Israeli side of the fence?

None  , but according to you it's not right unless Israelis are killed, then it's just 'legitimate resistance  '. As I said  you think Israeli soldiers have no right to protect their own lives. Basically you support hamas.  Have you asked them why so many Palestinians were sent to die? No, you did not... 

> How  come you only care about Israeli people? Isn't that a sort of reverse anti-Semitism, but we don't have a word for that do we?

I care only about Israelis? Where did that crap come from? That's a reverse anti semitism ? Are you on drugs? 

> Stop trying to defend the indefensible and look at what happening for a change.

Deep. 

> If you're really that bothered about anti-Semitism, then complain about ALL injustices, instead of making excuses. Can you not see any possible link on how some people might see that you only care when it's "one of your own"?

Why complain about all injustices? There is a big problem with anti semitism in labour and you want to deflect it  , make it the Jews fault for not complaining about all injustices ? Far from it, you seem to be the one that has been only condemning Israel for years while ignoring completely huge human rights violations in many countries . 

> You seem to think everyone should be very careful about their language and to be specific when criticising the Israeli government, yet you are very happy to blame the victims for being shot and absolve the IDF of  any blame.

I didn't say that at all. But when it comes to the likes of you who are always anti Israel and support all Israels enemies, then there is no choice. 

> I'm not saying this is a excuse for anti-Semitism, but even you must admit shooting people might be a little more extreme than saying "I'm glad you're on our team, you can look after the money".

Not sure what your point is. 

> You're quite happy for the photographer to be shot, because you said he was a Hamas spy, yet there was no trial, no evidence presented, he simply was, and now he's dead.

It's a war zone, you and others here don't seem to get that. You can't just cross the fence and ask the likes of that guy to come along for questioning unless you want to be sniped, ied-ed,, and suicide bombed in the space of a few minutes . You are completely delusional about gaza , and the groups in control there. 

 

The only interesting thing I get from this thread is that the anti Israeli crowd on UKC basically are saying that since many Jews support Israel then maybe they shouldn't complain about anti semitism in Britain since in your eyes and in the eyes of similar minded people,, Israel is an extremely racist place on par with the third reich or such. 

 

Post edited at 15:34
jondo - on 15:44 Fri
In reply to David Cohen:

> The soldiers of the IDF are held accountable for their actions, Hamas less so.

> The sad fact is that if you're a Jew, are suspected of being a Jew i.e have a Jew'ish' surname (or even look Jewish) those on the (hard) left too often feel it reasonable to open a torrent of abuse on the basis of their own factually flawed but solipsistic definitions of what is correct and proper and what is not.

> There is much to criticise about the policies of the government of the state of Israel, but sadly the anti-Semitic left seem unable to do so without dissembling, twisting and using deliberately offensive and provactive tropes and canards.

> If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it is of course the produce of those who control the media and international capitalism.

Well said. 

krikoman - on 16:00 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> He was put on trial. Not liking the sentence is one thing, have you read the trial proceedings?? No  I did not think so .

He shot and incapacitated man, is this true or not?

> That teen is a professional provocateur who has been slapping soldiers since childhood on her parents orders, which are paid by the pa. 

She slapped a "soldier"!!! That's all you really need to know, she's now in jail.

> None  , but according to you it's not right unless Israelis are killed, then it's just 'legitimate resistance  '. As I said  you think Israeli soldiers have no right to protect their own lives. Basically you support hamas.  Have you asked them why so many Palestinians were sent to die? No, you did not... 

It was a peaceful protest, until they started getting shot, the IDF could have pulled back and waited for them to reach the fence, before they started shooting, bad but at least then they might have had an excuse!! The fact is they didn't, never mind firing live rounds into a crowd FFS!!! There are children with legs blown apart. It make no difference if Hamas made all the people go there, it was the DIF that fired the shots, when they weren't under threat. They could have simply lined up tanks and ran people over if they crossed the fence line, but they never got that chance. No body said Israli's had to die or be hurt, there's a long way between the fence and "normal" people, but that didn't matter, the IDF wanted to show who's boss and they did.

Again you're suggesting I support Hamas, yet you have no proof,  if you look you'll probably find a number of posts where I've condemned Hamas, but that would spoil you blame tactics I suppose.

> I care only about Israelis? Where did that crap come from? That's a reverse anti semitism ? Are you on drugs? 

Unfortunately that's how it comes across, you always make excuses for the IDF, if it's not casting aspersions around, it telling us how badly they are treated. Not on drug by the way.

> Deep. 

> Why complain about all injustices?

Simply not supporting the IDF for once might be something

> I didn't say that at all. But when it comes to the likes of you who are always anti Israel and support all Israels enemies, then there is no choice. 

You and others have commented about this, and not just me, if it's not specifically spelled out "the Israeli Government" it's anti-Semitic, so please don't come the innocent now. Once again, this must be something like 50 times, I'm not anti-Israel, I'm against what the Israeli government is doing!! It's not that hard to understand, I know it's not what you want to be the truth, but that doesn't make it false.

It feels like you're almost wishing it to be true, to prove yourself right, and discount all the horrible shit that happening to innocent people.

> Not sure what your point is. 

> It's a war zone, you and others here don't seem to get that. You can't just cross the fence and ask the likes of that guy to come along for questioning unless you want to be sniped, ied-ed,, and suicide bombed in the space of a few minutes . You are completely delusional about gaza , and the groups in control there. 

It a war zone, really? It is now! It really doesn't matter who's in control, if your a fan of extra-judicial murder then it's still murder, and it was the Israeli's who carried that out. It's also you that seems to believe this line, even without proof. Israeli's say he's spy therefore, he's a spy.

> The only interesting thing I get from this thread is that the anti Israeli crowd on UKC basically are saying that since many Jews support Israel then maybe they shouldn't complain about anti semitism in Britain since in your eyes and in the eyes of similar minded people,, Israel is an extremely racist place on par with the third reich or such. 

You're very confused there, we should all complain and confront anti-Semitism, we shouldn't be firing live rounds into crowds of people on their own land! There's a subtle difference there, maybe it's too subtle for you to comprehend.

 

Post edited at 16:29
krikoman - on 16:03 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> What's fine? 

The Israeli's shouting death to the Arabs? At a Memorial Day  peace conference!

I'm surprised you need to ask, seems you're a little blinkered when it not about Jews being abused.

 

jondo - on 16:46 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> He shot and incapacitated man, is this true or not?

Yes, and he was put on trial. Can you say the same for Palestinians doing. . Anything .? 

> She slapped a "soldier"!!! That's all you really need to know, she's now in jail.

What's a 'soldier'.? You mean a soldier  

> It was a peaceful protest, until they started getting shot, the IDF could have pulled back and waited for them to reach the fence, before they started shooting, bad but at least then they might have had an excuse!! The fact is they didn't, never mind firing live rounds into a crowd FFS!!! There are children with legs blown apart.

I understand you were there and know that it was a peaceful protest, and that Israel was doing its best to kill people? 

>It make no difference if Hamas made all the people go there, it was the DIF that fired the shots,

Wow... You are practically a spokesman for hamas. 

>when they weren't under threat.

Weren't they? 

>They could have simply lined up tanks and ran people over if they crossed the fence line, but they never got that chance.

Why would they line up tanks and wait for thousands to cross the fence? 

Now you want thousands of dead Palestinians instead of 30?

 

>No body said Israli's had to die or be hurt, there's a long way between the fence and "normal" people, but that didn't matter, the IDF wanted to show who's boss and they did.

What are 'normal' people ? There are villages less than a mile away. 

The IDF has every right to prevent people of breaching the fence in a mass riot. 

> Again you're suggesting I support Hamas, yet you have no proof,  if you look you'll probably find a number of posts where I've condemned Hamas, but that would spoil you blame tactics I suppose.

Just reading this post is a clear support for hamas. You have never condemned hamas or it's attacks. 

> Unfortunately that's how it comes across, you always make excuses for the IDF, if it's not casting aspersions around, it telling us how badly they are treated. Not on drug by the way.

Hardly making excuses. You have very little understanding in military situations.. 

> Simply not supporting the IDF for once might be something

If I would say anything critical it would be about something specific  which I have specific knowledge of, and it would not be to you. 

> You and others have commented about this, and not just me, if it's not specifically spelled out "the Israeli Government" it's anti-Semitic, so please don't come the innocent now. Once again, this must be something like 50 times, I'm not anti-Israel, I'm against what the Israeli government is doing!! It's not that hard to understand, I know it's not what you want to be the truth, but that doesn't make it false.

Again accusing me of calling you anti semitic ? Are you that thick ? 

 

 

> It a war zone, really? It is now! It really doesn't matter who's in control, if your a fan of extra-judicial murder then it's still murder, and it was the Israeli's who carried that out. It's also you that seems to believe this line, even without proof. Israeli's say he's spy therefore, he's a spy.

It's a war zone, most definitely . 

> You're very confused there, we should all complain and confront anti-Semitism, we shouldn't be firing live rounds into crowds of people on their own land! There's a subtle difference there, maybe it's too subtle for you to comprehend.

I'm confused ? Seriously ? 

OK  final explanation : 

This is a thread about anti semitism in Britain  I commented on that topic. Pretty quick though, you and others started saying that all criticism of Israel is labelled anti semitic. I  for one, deny that, I accept legitimacy of criticism of the Israeli government . However, you and others here continued with either going on about specific incidents in Israel which are unrelated to the topic, or more seriously implying quite explicitly that Jewish support for Israel nulls claims of anti semitism in labour due to your perceived racism of the Israeli state. (not any specific action of Israel but by its very nature ). 

You see how fast you and like minded went from considering anti semitism to justifying it in a way? 

Here's a suggestion,  open as many threads as you want about Israel or about the guy that shot the injured terrorist  I promise I won't comment,  no matter how malicious you post. 

 

Post edited at 16:48
jondo - on 16:46 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> The Israeli's shouting death to the Arabs? At a Memorial Day  peace conference!

> I'm surprised you need to ask, seems you're a little blinkered when it not about Jews being abused.

Sorry, stopped clicking on your links long ago. 

krikoman - on 17:42 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> Sorry, stopped clicking on your links long ago. 


Pity you might have learned something instead of continually posting puerile posts.

It seems it only suits you to post, when you're telling people they hate Israel and want to see it destroyed, or some other fantasies about spies etc.

If by malicious you mean truthful, or questions you'd rather not confront, I can see your point. No body want to hear the truth right?

Who says Gaza is a war zone? I thought it was a prison, a prison in which the IDF can take pot shots at people killing 30 of the last few weeks and injuring 1,000.

You then try to tell us how good the Israeli gov. is because it lets some of them come to Israeli hospitals!!

As for not knowing about military situations, you don't know my past, or what I do now for that matter.

I do know that stones don't usually travel a mile or more and that sniper bullets will continue through their target for some distance.

You seem to have trouble comprehending my post about the tanks, since the Palestinians didn't, and haven't, crossed the fence, the tanks wouldn't have a target!

You made the same assumption you did with the photographer, so let's kill them before they do something, something they might be going to do. See very reasonable in anyone's book.

krikoman - on 17:45 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> You see how fast you and like minded went from considering anti semitism to justifying it in a way? 

If you think the original post was about anti-Semitism, it's no wonder you have trouble understanding what people post.

It had little at all to do with anti-Semitism, if it was DC could have posted to the original thread from a week or so ago, but he didn't. It was a heap "joke" that didn't really work, except for the few.

aln - on 17:58 Fri
In reply to jondo:

>  all criticism of Israel is labelled anti semitic.

It is! 

jondo - on 18:31 Fri
In reply to aln:

> It is! 

By who? 

jondo - on 18:32 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> If you think the original post was about anti-Semitism, it's no wonder you have trouble understanding what people post.

> It had little at all to do with anti-Semitism, if it was DC could have posted to the original thread from a week or so ago, but he didn't. It was a heap "joke" that didn't really work, except for the few.

It doesn't matter if we are referring to this thread or the other threads about anti semitism  you have done the same in all of them  shifted the discussion to demonising Israel and anyone who doesn't agree with you. 

TobyA on 18:33 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> It's a war zone, most definitely . 

Did you serve on the Gazan border by any chance? I've been to the fence, between Sderot and Beit Hanoun. It was during the time that Sderot was being regularly rocketed and the IDF were targeting the launch teams. I think it's quite disingenuous to call it a war zone, it's mainly open farmland on the Gaza side which is very closely monitored by IDF balloons and drones. There were slingshots and petrol bombs used in the recent protests, but I haven't seen any evidence of guns amongst the protesters. As the British army found out at Bloody Sunday the optics of sniper and assault rifles against rioters even chucking stones and petrol bombs aren't great. You can say 'war zone' as much as you want, but you're preaching to the choir. No one else is buying it.

jondo - on 18:38 Fri
In reply to krikoman:

> Pity you might have learned something instead of continually posting puerile posts.

> It seems it only suits you to post, when you're telling people they hate Israel and want to see it destroyed, or some other fantasies about spies etc.

Fantasies ? So you knew this guy  ? 

And... You don't hate Israel ? 

> If by malicious you mean truthful, or questions you'd rather not confront, I can see your point. No body want to hear the truth right?

By no body you include yourself I assume ? 

> Who says Gaza is a war zone? I thought it was a prison, a prison in which the IDF can take pot shots at people killing 30 of the last few weeks and injuring 1,000.

A prison? Yes, actually hamas holds its own population as prisoners but since you support hamas that fact obviously doesn't bother you. Ah, I see you again want IDF soldiers to lay down their lives, as long as they don't use their weapons  god forbid. 

> You then try to tell us how good the Israeli gov. is because it lets some of them come to Israeli hospitals!!

So they shouldn't treat people in order to fit in your nicely ordered image of 'Israelis are monsters' ? 

> As for not knowing about military situations, you don't know my past, or what I do now for that matter.

> I do know that stones don't usually travel a mile or more and that sniper bullets will continue through their target for some distance.

That's serious military know how right there. 

> You seem to have trouble comprehending my post about the tanks, since the Palestinians didn't, and haven't, crossed the fence, the tanks wouldn't have a target!

I see you know hamas intentions in all this... So they don't want to cross the fence  or plant ieds  or kidnap a soldier ? 

> You made the same assumption you did with the photographer, so let's kill them before they do something, something they might be going to do. See very reasonable in anyone's book.

Nice the way you put words in my mouth . At least it's just words and not your cock. 

 

jondo - on 18:46 Fri
In reply to TobyA:

> Did you serve on the Gazan border by any chance? I've been to the fence, between Sderot and Beit Hanoun. It was during the time that Sderot was being regularly rocketed and the IDF were targeting the launch teams. I think it's quite disingenuous to call it a war zone, it's mainly open farmland on the Gaza side which is very closely monitored by IDF balloons and drones. There were slingshots and petrol bombs used in the recent protests, but I haven't seen any evidence of guns amongst the protesters. As the British army found out at Bloody Sunday the optics of sniper and assault rifles against rioters even chucking stones and petrol bombs aren't great. You can say 'war zone' as much as you want, but you're preaching to the choir. No one else is buying it.

I don't care what you believe man. 

Gaza has seen countless conflicts in recent years, if you visited the area during a lull that doesn't mean anything. Like living in a ww1 trench for a month during quiet ..

If there are snipers and tunnels and At teams on the other side its a war zone . Islamic jihad just released a video of the top IDF officers in snipers scope on the gaza fence .

You haven't seen evidence of guns... On the 10sec of news on the BBC ? 

Comparing to NI is ridiculous . 

Ok enough with this thread. 

 

 

krikoman - on 20:05 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> Fantasies ? So you knew this guy  ? 

No but it's pretty obvious, since he's not been allowed to leave Gaza for some time, he'd be a pretty shit spy.

> And... You don't hate Israel ? 

No I don't hate Israel, and I don't hate Jews. Once again, I hate what the Israeli government does and then tries to convince us it has no other option.

> A prison? Yes, actually hamas holds its own population as prisoners but since you support hamas that fact obviously doesn't bother you. Ah, I see you again want IDF soldiers to lay down their lives, as long as they don't use their weapons  god forbid. 

> So they shouldn't treat people in order to fit in your nicely ordered image of 'Israelis are monsters' ? 

Maybe they shouldn't shoot them in the first place.

> I see you know hamas intentions in all this... So they don't want to cross the fence  or plant ieds  or kidnap a soldier ? 

They've got to get to and through the fence first FFS!! How can the plant IEDs from their side of the fence? If the IDF are a mile away and someone crosses or even gets to the fence they could shoot them then. As sniper rifle is accurate from 5 miles away, that's some safety zone, before that rampaging hoards are anywhere near to you.

No you're the one that know Hamas' intentions, according to you, Hamas are forcing the people to get shot so they can prove to the world how shit the Israeli government is, because by doing this Israel will be defeated.

It seems to me that Israel is playing directly into Hamas's hands if that's what Hamas are trying to achieve. Funny how Israel keep falling for the same old trick every time. Considering the IDF know who the bad guys and spies are, surely it's not that hard to work out they are being played by Hamas time and time again.

I'm presuming you can see the logic of this, and why it might be better to not kill so many Palestinians, and STOP playing into Hamas' hands quite so often.

As for my cock, that may be wishful thinking on you part, sorry to disappoint.

How's your metta going by the way

Post edited at 20:17
krikoman - on 20:14 Fri
In reply to jondo:

> I don't care what you believe man. 

We know, that's the sad part to be honest.

No one's asking you to take part in the downfall of Israel, but that is exactly what you're doing, by ignoring the excesses of the IDF and Israeli government. Victim blaming.

Just for a second, imagine if the protest had gone ahead, and Israel hadn't reacted, unless there were actual incursions at / on the fence. One could much more easily justify shooting at people either on the fence or through it, it would be so much easier for them. Instead it chose not to, it chose to shot into a crowd of men, women and children.

As for the photographer, if you're insisting he was a spy because he was flying a drone in the area, couldn't the drone have been destroyed, or did it have to be the man?

Or maybe you think the people of Gaza don't have the right to protest, even on their own land.

aln - on 21:42 Fri
In reply to jondo:

By you. 

Andy Hardy on 00:01 Sat
In reply to jondo:

Remember that bit up thread, where criticism of israeI is the standard trope of the anti Semite?

TobyA on 00:13 Sat
In reply to jondo:

So is there film either from the IDF or from news crews on the Gazan side showing anyone in the protests carrying guns? That's what looks bad. The IDF has released footage of armed men approaching the fence I think it was during the early morning on the 30th, who were shot and killed. It's never great having to shoot and kill people but if they were trying to get through the fence while armed I don't think many people have a problem with that. But, firing into crowds who are rioting with sticks and stones and burning tyres, but don't have guns and are not actually getting through the fence, that's what everyone is focusing on, and why Israel loses the 'narrative war'.

winhill - on 00:36 Sat
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Remember that bit up thread, where criticism of israeI is the standard trope of the anti Semite?

a) You flounced on the pathetically weak premise that you didn't know what the far left meant, no backsies.

b) You missed the context of the quote, which was that claiming that Jews claim that all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic is the trope.

No one on this thread has come close to claiming that all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. So why do people keep repeating it, on this and other Jew threads?

Because they enjoy the Jew baiting.

 

Lusk - on 00:52 Sat
In reply to winhill:

> Because they enjoy the Jew baiting.

 

If Jews stopped banging on that they think they're some thing special above everyone else and they're SO hard done by, maybe they can get on with their lives like everyone else.

To summarise, for my simple mind, anyone who dares to critisise Israel about this interminable conflict with the Palestinians, or has a dislike of money grabbing bankers or diamond dealers who look like charactertures on some mural, then put me down as a hardcore anti-semite.

Meanwhile, back in the normal world, we could be thought of as anti war, anti out and out capitalist greed people.

Give it a rest Jews.  Looks to me like your wealth gives you the ability to shout loudest. 

TobyA on 07:33 Sat
In reply to Lusk:

> or has a dislike of money grabbing bankers or diamond dealers who look like charactertures on some mural, then put me down as a hardcore anti-semite.

OK. I'm quite surprised at your pride in owning your racism though! I suppose it's refreshingly honest in a slightly disturbing way.

 

Neil Williams - on 08:40 Sat
In reply to winhill:

> b) You missed the context of the quote, which was that claiming that Jews claim that all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic is the trope.

Saying that all Jews claim something[1] is like saying all Christians do - nothing other than rather silly (or racist).

But the original poster does seem to come close to making this point in places in this thread.

[1] Other than something fairly fundamental to the religion e.g. the existence of an all powerful deity.

Post edited at 08:41

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