UKC

Now as a bimbler and self confessed hero worshiper I’ve a lot of time for those who are experts in their fields, who do the derring-do so I don’t have to, write brilliant articles, voice riveting podcasts. AndyK, his books, and his podcasts have been really enjoyable. He has his moments I admit, his Instagram posts occasionally left a little to be desired, and his grip on social media etiquette is ropey at best. But jeez, the opening salvo in his latest podcast. As good as he is at what he does and more power to his skyhook, sometimes he should just shut-up. It was embarrassing listening to such misogynistic drivel.

Has he resurfaced? He disappeared in a haze of anti lock down nonsense and apologist whataboutary for some extreme right wing stuff (it was the Proud Boys post on tw@tter that eventually led me to stop following him). I got the impression someone he listened to had told him it was best to shut the feck up. 

Wow, just listened to about a minute of that which is all I could take. It was one minute of rambling, incoherent prejudice.

If you really only listened a minute or two believe me it gets much worse. 

I've not listened before, but basically it's the same themes that Andy has been flogging for really quite a few years now. I stopped following his Instagram several years back because it got so depressing. I "met" i.e. exchanged heated words with, a genuine (American) self described Nazi (and climber) who claimed to be Andy's biggest fan. That's when I stopped paying any attention. 

That was really rather lovely wasn't it?  Got as far as minute 20 (courtesy of the ffwd button).  Everything is the fault of "****ing women" and "brown people" apparently (sic).  Goddit.

Jeepers, that was a depressing listen. He just seems full of hate.

I stuck with him for a long time as I thought he was a good fella who just said some misguided things on social media to stir things up, but then we had a bit of spat on instagram and he left about a week later, citing the exact term that I had to him used in his farewell post...

At first I was a bit mortified that I may have contributed in some way to him quitting, and tried to apologise and make amends, however now it's become clear that he's actually just become a tw@t.

It's a shame, as his writing used to be great, and I think he did used to be a good bloke.  But then so did lots of middle aged men whom have disappeared up their own arsehole and turned into a right wing eejit.  That's the term I used btw.

Years ago AKP was posting links to YouTube videos on why having black people in Star Wars films meant the franchise was destroyed and doomed to failure. Iirc the video was presented by one of the founders of the Proud Boys, the far right militia movement in America. Was that an indication of the direction of travel or had he already arrived?

(Not having a go at you personally Greg, these things are hard to judge.)

Just so I can reassure myself that AK is still a bit bonkers, could someone post a link to this podcast...?

Or would it be better not to provide the oxygen of publicity and add to his hit count...?

Really?  Wow missed that. How many years?  May have been before he was on my radar, I wasn't involved in any type of climbing until 7 or 8 years ago...

I would say I was aware of some negative attitudes towards him online when he did come on my radar, but didn't really know what it was all about or why and Psychovertical is and will always be a brilliant book so I was interested in him for a time.  Couldn't care less about him now. 

I should probably also mention that prior to our spat on insta we also had one on twitter so I unfollowed him on there as I didn't want to engage with his ill informed nonsense. 

He kept insta to climbing matters, but he just couldn't help himself and that went the same was as his twitter then we had our spat and he flounced off.  

He's been off my radar entirely since then, haven't seen or heard a thing of him until just now when, out of interest, I listened to the first 10 mins of of his podcast.

What a load of rubbish.  He basically just a bigot now, and like so many bigots, isn't anything like as bright as he thinks he is.

(no offence taken Sean!)

I think he started on his path shortly before the Trump era so maybe around 2014 or 2015? 
 

Thankfully he’s been very easy to avoid recently.

Great question. For a long while I thought he was trolling. Unfortunately it has become clear that he wasn't.

Still bonkers - it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t thing. His climbing stuff is fantastic listening and I’d say pre June-ish of last year he had his shit together. Of late though - it’s hard to sift through the detritus.

I’m unsubscribing, I had The Girl in the car with me on the way back from Explorer Scouts when I started listening to the latest episode and her reaction sealed the deal.

The Force Awakens came out in late 2015, which had John Boyega playing one of the leads. Not that black characters / actors where a particularly new thing in Star Wars.

Avoid. Nasty far rightist these days. Had a weird go at me about an innocuous point (not even about politics) I made and which he misunderstood. Took to emailing me through the site with bizarre accusations that I was actually some guy I had never heard of, even though I have been posting on here since 2005.

Poor old Andy K. To be honest I think he is just a symptom of the ongoing societal overcorrection against some of the more extreme aspects of 'wokeism' and/or cancel culture. I expect that in 10 years time, Western society will settle down to some sensible common ground (assuming we don't eradicate ourselves through nuclear war).

I've given up listening to him these days mind!

He had turned right a long time before we had ever heard the word woke.

What are these extreme aspects of 'wokism' and cancel culture? Are they having such a drastic effect on society that any correction is needed?

There is no excuse for his kind of batshit crazy assholery.

Thanks for confirming the date. Of course Star Wars had black characters before but let’s not go looking for logic here…

Whilst being choked to death............?

Same, both times I got into it with him he got really nasty and personal over something he'd misunderstood entirely.

It's just twigged with me who this character is. I recall going to see one of his talks at the local uni nearly twenty years ago. When I unwrapped a sweet during his talk he got really sh1tty about it, talking to me as if I was a naughty schoolkid caught in class. I just asked him if he'd like one as well but thought it was really odd to try and have a pop at someone who was contributing to his income over something so trivial. It would seem his 'problems' have long roots.

Nah, he's responsible for his own words and actions. He's also a well known and (previously?) respected author and climber using his platform to rant about UKC having articles written by "another f@king woman". He's not the victim here. Women being allowed to publish articles isn't "extreme wokeism" FFS. 

Same as most people here, I used to really enjoy his climbing writing and his gear articles were really really good. But it became clear a few years ago that he'd been thoroughly red-pilled. Last straw for me was something he wrote about "defund the police" which was just a diatribe of right wing talking points completely misunderstanding what it actually means.

It's such a shame that he has gone this way. One has to wonder what triggered it. His talks were a genius fusion of hardcore climbing and stand up comedy and Psychovertical one of the most gripping climbing books I have read.

You have to wonder for all those who fall down this, or similar rabbit holes.

Well, that depends. Brown people can be radicalised, but since Andy is white and therefore his mind is made of stronger stuff, it’s probably an understandable backlash or reasonable concerns. 

I'm hoping that's irony...

Sean has was taking on Kirkpatrick robustly many years ago for his already unpleasant ideas. This resulted in Andy, ironically enough, trying to have Sean "cancelled" - for example chucked out of a certain climbing writing facebook group. In that case it was done by emailing the group admin and telling tales about how Sean had called him nasty things. This came about after Sean objected robustly to some covid denialism crap from another writing climber, that got pushed via that particular Facebook group. 

So yes - very ironic.

Appreciate the concern but I can assure you it is ironic

I think that’s the biggest disappointment. For someone who seemed so unique and apart from the people around, whom danced to the beat of his own drum, he’s fallen down the same b o r i n g rabbit hole as every other middle aged man with a Twitter account and too much time on his hands.

He’s become a cliche.  How dull

If this isn't a cliché I don't know what is

Well there’s always:

“We’ll head ‘em off at the pass”

“Let’s get the hell out of here”

….and something or other about three pebble slab.

As a controversial national treasure he's up there with Winston Churchill

Pretty sure it was, but just giving you the opportuinty to confirm; note the dislikes (not mine)...

Well, I'm a middle aged man with time on my hands, but I haven't gone down that rabbit hole yet. No Twitter account, yet, though; is that it...?

Same, and I do have a Twitter account…

Perhaps “every” was a poor choice of word. I meant “so many others”.  

It's an good question. There clearly is a downward spiral that's possible. Several former posters here have succumbed. Probably something for everyone to watch out for.

Outside of the climbing world, he's pretty much unknown, so he's not a national treasure. Controversial, only perhaps amongst his limited readership. And he's definitely not up there with Winston Churchill. Churchill was clever, for starters.

He was being a total dick at least a decade ago, I can't believe anyone remotely sensible gives him and his drivel the time of day. Just mute and move on, it's not interesting, it's not an important insight into another considered position, it's bitter twisted shit from someone who inhabits a tiny corner of the same Venn diagram of interests as you and I. 

Jk

Churchill was a clever racist?

Interesting

I must have missed something that I said.....I'll scroll back and check....

Okay, you do that 👍

I just did

Out of these 2 famous Brits, who do you think is/was the most racist person?

Winston Churchill or Andy Kirkpatrick?

I wish him well.

I went to one of AK's shows a good few years ago, and really enjoyed it. I've been around a fair few people with issues that seem similar to his, and those things are really hard to deal with, both for the person concerned and those around them. One very common tactic is to assume that whatever is wrong is down to external things, like the aliens or the other person in the relationship, or people in boats, etc.

Of course social media becomes a massive megaphone for all that; in that respect it's an abs nightmare, and what to do about it deserves a different thread.

Although it's hard work, and sometimes too hard, I would say that most of my friends have a screw loose in some respect or other; otherwise they probably wouldn't be my friends! What that says about me is uncertain

ff

Interesting.  I mailed him around then to point out that his casual misogyny wasn't ok, and got an absolute diatribe back.

Nasty piece of work.

it’s a difficult situation, do you continue laud either for their achievements, buy books, praise their historical/game changing interventions in world/climbing history, or do you write them off entirely because of their underlying hate for people.

without defending him, Churchill was of his time and I dare say many of our grandparents/great grandparents if asked would say he was right to do what he did. The truth is, he wasn’t full stop, and that needs calling out. Same with AndyK.

it’s the R-Kelly/Michael Jackson conundrum - great (to some peoples tastes) music, nasty people, do you stop listening? I have.

You know what I reckon must be really hard to deal with? Not being a white English man and trying to live your life with toxic arseholes like this continually othering you on social media.

Yes he has problems, but don’t we all. The problem is is that he is a problem.

I saw him talk twice, the first time was about the Reticent Wall about 20 years ago. It was brilliant, as is Psychovertical. Considering his capacity for self reflection, it’s both tragic and surprising that he’s gone down this far right rabbit hole. However, my sympathies lie with those whose lives are made more difficult by people like him.

OP: I gave the podcast a listen, Dear God. Incomprehensible sub-Derek and Clive bigoted rambling. I got as far as the Scottish Asian woman pissing on the DOE Awards scheme and couldn’t stomach any more. Like lifting the lid on Satan’s personal cesspit.
 

I think Winston Churchill's racism and anti-semitism was extreme even for his day. And that the fall of the Germans in WW2 had about as much to do with Winston Churchill as the song Red Balloons did with the fall of the Berlin Wall. The rose-tinted goggle-donning Britonians who have yet to admit to the fallacy of Churchill admiration yet who still see fit to judge Andy Kirkpatrick, have little to none of my sympathy I'm afraid.  

Politics aside, when he talks (talked?) about climbing, I find him genuinely fascinating and entertaining. Some of the best talks I have listened both for climbing and comedy. And when I have spoken to him (quite a while ago) he was a genuinely nice person on the face of it. 

However feel that he has gone down a sort of self destructive path. Having said some fairly extreme things, he lost a lot of following both in the likes of us but also corporate sponsorship / coverage.

Rather than changing the way he presented himself, he seemed to get more and more extreme - almost like he is trying to attract that part of society to make up for what he lost in the climbing world. 

I used to enjoy listing to the podcast - 2 hours of listing to the most distracted and in-depth talk on ice axes made the trips up the M6 got a lot quicker. Even my non climbing partner enjoyed them. However I find the more recent podcasts a very hard listen and to be quite honest I had sort of forgotten about them until today. 

I always thought half of what he said was just to stir things up / create a bit of controversy, but I am starting to think that he actually fully believes what he says. 

He had a bumpy personal life as I recall (from what he wrote about a number of years ago). Doesn't excuse being unpleasant, plenty of people do, but might be a contributing factor.

Also it's possibly worth noting that he has, or used to have, a UKC account, so may be reading all this at some point

If there's no room for nuance in the detail of "what he did", good, bad and really bad, there's no point even talking about it.  I didn't meet all of my grandparents or any of my great grandparents, but some of them were Irish and lived through the 1920s so I don't think I'd even bother mentioning his name to them tbh.

This is irrelevant whataboutery.

I think Beevor would agree as well. It was really the current bad boys of Europe that won it really.

To be more accurate, it's class snobbery.

That's the relevant issue

Glass houses and all that.

But perhaps a harder time without support from the UK/Empire/commonwealth.

I don’t think Churchills views were extreme for the time. I think it’s amazingly positive that what we think of as ok has changed so much in such a short time frame.

Pretty shocked there are so many people still giving him the time of day to be honest. It was pretty obvious from a long time ago that he was a really nasty piece of work. He's a racist, a misogynist and a conspiracy theorist and the fact there are still climbers willing to look past that because hes good at climbing is astonishing. 

Rom?

"This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Incredible work. A casually lobbed Churchill grenade and the thread is blown wide open.

Ever heard a present day German person defending the views of their bygone-era leader? (the one who lost to the Russians and the Americans)

Sounds very similar to present day British people defending the views of their bygone-era leader (the one who was saved by the Russians and the Americans).

A certain English football legend BBC commentator would almost certainly agree 😉👌

It's all in jest really. And here's the basic joke-

Working class Andy Kirkpatrick (a nobody) is controversial and so deemed worthy of being cancelled. Yet upper class admiral Churchill (leader of the British colonial empire) said much worse yet shall never be cancelled.

Guffaw guffaw, snort, chortle chortle 🤣

Have you got a link to Churchill's most recent podcast so we make an assessment?

Has AKP been 'cancelled' though? His books are still widely available. And his website and podcast are freely accessible online. He has a platform to say what he wants. 

And Churchill's legacy is in a state of constant reappraisal as times and attitudes change.

Agreed. I got to the Andy-Kirkpatrick-is-good party very late, about ten years ago, and after reading some of climbing posts on his blog before clicking through to his non-climbing stuff was like "Wow, this guy's great. What an origina... Ugh." And my relationship with his output was over.

There's a certain type of person who's just the right amount of clever, with the right sized chip on their shoulder, and an ego the size of a gas giant, who are just perfect candidates for conspiratorial and far right credulousness. See also: Brand, Russell and Nawaz, Maajid.

Not ignoring all the vile racist shite and just supporting him anyway is cancelling him. Poor Andy.

Hoho, that was funny!

Where's the Andy Kirkpatrick statue so that we can all rip it down?

Probably pretty close, but Churchill at least followed through and starved a bunch of Indians

I'd say the tone here is quite 'cancelly'.

I don't agree with Andy's views. Or with others who are at least equally, if not more controversial people than Andy, but who are much more ingrained in the psyche of Britishness which to some gives them a pass. I don't agree to the defence of such characters. Someday some people will stop saying 'he was a man of his time' and will start owning the fact that he was a racist demigogue.

But each to their own. I know a guy who once worked as a footman at Buckingham Palace. He is a staunch royalist and is as tory as they come- quite the opposite to me in many respects.

However, I've spent many afternoons hillwalking with the guy and I'd say he is a very nice interesting chap. And I'd likely say the same about some who downvoted my messages.

Now that I've cleared up some of my mess, does anyone know if Andy has any sponsors at present? 

Great idea for a new show on GBeabies....... Neil Oliver and Andy K discuss the state of the world, while sipping on special mushroom tea.

Yeah, because that makes total sense. 

Jk

Not sure the tone here is "cancelly" just lots of people saying that they choose not to listen to his podcast or read his stuff anymore.  That's not being cancelled.  If the tone here was cancelly we'd be discussing how we can go about asking Spotify and other platforms to remove his podcast, or his publishers to delete his book, bookshops to take them of the shelves etc

Nobody is saying anything like that, just that they don't like him and can't understand why other people do.

I mean I hate bananas, and can't understand how anyone can stomach them, but I'm not going to ask Tescos to stop selling them.

If anything I think climbing is pretty tolerant of opposing viewpoints - Andy K is nowhere near being cancelled and mainstream, well known climbers still engage with him.  Emily Harrington went on Joe bloody Rogan's podcast and got no pushback at all.  We're actually pretty tolerant of opposing viewpoints.

No idea on his sponsors, none mentioned on his website, nor he mentioned on those whom he used to work with.  Suspect not.   

... in a wikiup sweat lodge...?

I would go with AK on the grounds that in the 21st century he should know better.

Churchill was indeed racist but then so was virtually everyone back then. Christ we were still being racist on the Beeb in the 1980's. This isn't to defend Churchill but to place him in the context of the society he came from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Winston_Churchill

I used the word 'tone' for that very reason. But I do take your point.

This is a hideous minefield for discussion I admit, and there are no acceptable shades of racism be it relative to a time, situation, or generation, esp if as I am you’re a white middle aged male who’s opinion doesn’t count but who can recognise that I’m in a privileged position, can’t be a bystander and must call things out even if my history and success is down to others who were racist.

Case study in point, my mom, lovely woman, horrible racist. Only by pointing out the awfulness of what she was saying and threatening to stop visiting with the kids did it make a difference to her words, thoughts, and actions. I could have just let it slide because you know, my mom.

That's definitely a tough one. Well done to you for challening your mum, and to her of course for making the change. I know this situation quite well myself.

My daughter is mixed race- a Scottish/Asian climbing girl which, funnily enough, was the target specified in AK's latest podcast. However, rather than identifying the point Andy was attempting to make- that the Asian culture passed onto the girl from her mother was the factor putting her at odds with the Duke of Edinburgh awards (rather than racism as implied in the article being referred to). It appears some listeners determined that he was simply being racist- which I do get to some degree. But by his pointing out that the girl simply looked Scottish then I'm inclined to put some merit to culture-clash being the main factor behind the girls story.

I tell you what, it's a fine line sometimes, but not in the case of Winston Churchill. He was genuinely, unashamedely racist, and made many human beings suffer and die because of the colour of their skin. For queen and country.

If you think I'm right then downvote this comment. Lol, just kidding. Downvote away, it changes nothing.

We are freezing this thread now and will remove it in a few days. We are doing this because we are in favour of allowing people to have opinions, but we are also aware that this thread has turned into something of a pile-on and that is not something we want to be part of in the long term.