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Are we all going to change our behaviour to suit economics?

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 veteye 19 Oct 2022

Or have most people done that already?

I normally have not put my heating on by this time anyway: Plus I have just had a typical holiday for me, of 4-5 days in Scotland staying in bunk houses, and though I didn't stay in a bothy, I brought stuff so that I could, and was considering it (I had my sandwiches in Corrour while it was raining heavily the other day).

Yet I may visit London less frequently than in the past, but then I miss out on my memberships of London institutions. Nevertheless, I will probably visit less, as that is less train fare spending. Reduce the number of memberships?

I am using the oven more carefully, and the lights less, plus only have one radio on in one room for the whole house, but I don't think that I have changed by very much, so far. 

I suppose I'm being curious about what others will do.

 Maggot 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

Whilst there is a bunch of criminals running this country I'll quite happily break the law.

34
Clauso 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I've taken to attacking hedges.

1
 Uncle Derek 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

Obviously it is a desperate situation for many, however , it is a shame that the actions we should  and could be taking to help other, vis a vis, climate change, we will only do for selfish reasons. But thats Humans for you ¯_(ツ)_/¯

2
 bouldery bits 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

Yeah.

I'm going to live in a bin.

1
 The Norris 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I'm going to sound very middle class here!

I've decided against the annual ski trip as its now too expensive and will probably try and have a weeks camping trip in the UK later in the year instead.

Also not had the heating on yet, and we have had a lodger in for 6 months, which we've never done before, and that kind of mitigated any household bills inflation for the year.

Longer term I'm trying to retrain as a programmer/developer as the wage ceiling in the nhs in a technical role, and erosion of real terms pay and conditions is starting to get to me a bit.

 Duncan Bourne 19 Oct 2022
In reply to Clauso:

I forage squirrels and eat bark

OP veteye 19 Oct 2022
In reply to The Norris:

I'm not sure how a lodger would get on with me, as my house is full of books and paper (more insulation?), and I live in a slightly colder environment than most (other than those on here, it seems): Plus I go to bed late (midnight plus) and get up fairly early (~6.35am). Yet if I took someone on, I would possibly find the time to replace the kitchen window, which is not far from dropping out, with a continental type window, which is probably a sensible move in the current situation.

 ianstevens 19 Oct 2022
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I forage squirrels and eat bark

I forage bark and eat squirrels, better nutrition that way

 henwardian 19 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

Economics _is_ the behaviour of everyone when it comes to money, investments and commodities. The economics of a situation are changed by the people as much as the people are changed by the economics. You only have to look at every housing crash ever to see that the economics of house price crashes are caused by people not buying because they are worried (probably about high house prices), and ofc when the crash happens, it causes even more people to stop buying houses as they worry about the decreasing value of said houses. You can apply the same circular logic to recessions and various other things that spiral downwards and speculative bubbles (e.g. Japanese housing, bitcoin, bitcoin again, bitcoin a third time..) and various other things that spiral upwards.

This is a chicken and egg type problem - considering how one causes the other without the inverse also being true is meaningless.

2
OP veteye 19 Oct 2022
In reply to henwardian:

If you are saying that my use of words was loose, I won't deny it. It was late and I was tired, but I was curious to know how people are going to deal with their own cost of living problems, which are very likely to get worse.

I get the idea that the media's prophesies are mutually fulfilling. Nevertheless it is happening, and will continue to do so.

 bouldery bits 20 Oct 2022
In reply to henwardian:

So I could put the heating on if only I believed hard enough.

Got it.

 girlymonkey 20 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I have stopped charging our vehicles at home. We use the council chargers which are 15 mins along the road now. Dogs love it as they get extra walks to drop off and pick up the van or car. (Our council still has free chargers)

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 Petrafied 21 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I've secondary Raynaud's, so I'm broke if I turn on the heating and risking losing fingers and/or toes if I don't.  Bit of a quandary.

Post edited at 07:05
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 gethin_allen 21 Oct 2022
In reply to The Norris:

> I'm going to sound very middle class here!

> I've decided against the annual ski trip as its now too expensive and will probably try and have a weeks camping trip in the UK later in the year instead.

I did this years ago, I was starting to get annoyed with paying a fortune to destroy my skis/snowboard on rubbish snow and £10+ beers no longer taste so good.

 gethin_allen 21 Oct 2022
In reply to Petrafied:

> I've secondary Raynaud's, so I'm broke if I turn on the heating and risking losing fingers and/or toes if I don't.  Bit of a quandary.

You could invest in a heated jacket such as one of these https://www.powertoolsuk.co.uk/bosch-ghj1218xs-heated-jacket.html It could make things a little bit more comfortable if you don't want to bankrupt yourself with the gas bill.

 J Whittaker 21 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

Every day I keep the heating off is a small victory

 Lord_ash2000 21 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I've just had the gas fire removed and replaced with a wood burner to keep us cosy in winter. Admittedly it was something we planned to do anyway as we just preferred a real fire to the gas-powered mock wood burner that we had before however this winter's energy prices and the possibility of shortages etc meant we brought forward plans and did it this year. 

Cuts-wise, not a lot really, we've always kept an eye on energy use and excessive spending so there is not a lot to change there. Food might need to be looked into as for two adults and a toddler we'd spending over £100 a week on food shopping which seems a bit excessive to me. 

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In reply to gethin_allen:

Just looked at this and I can’t see where the energy comes from. Do you plug it in overnight? Or does it work by magic?

 fred99 21 Oct 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I have stopped charging our vehicles at home. We use the council chargers which are 15 mins along the road now. Dogs love it as they get extra walks to drop off and pick up the van or car. (Our council still has free chargers)

I suggest that when your council next sits to work out where to make savings, that the first item they list are these chargers.

Not only is it wrong to supply one sector of society with free "fuel" but not others, when the sector they are aiding is the one which can afford new cars, as opposed to the rest who either make do with older cars - or indeed can't afford a car in the first place - then their largesse is somewhat misdirected.

7
In reply to fred99:

> I suggest that when your council next sits to work out where to make savings, that the first item they list are these chargers.

> Not only is it wrong to supply one sector of society with free "fuel" but not others, when the sector they are aiding is the one which can afford new cars, as opposed to the rest who either make do with older cars - or indeed can't afford a car in the first place - then their largesse is somewhat misdirected.

I think the idea is to encourage desirable outcomes and kickstart the change to low carbon vehicles. How would you do that or are you not a 'believer'

5
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I think the idea is to encourage desirable outcomes and kickstart the change to low carbon vehicles. How would you do that or are you not a 'believer'

It would be interesting to see if EV adoption is higher in the area where free "fuel" is available. I'd suspect it isn't, so adopting the same process as elsewhere would seem appropriate - building up the network of paid-for chargers.

 stubbed 21 Oct 2022
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I switched supermarkets when unemployed and never went back - the difference was huge. Also cutting back on processed food and cooking virtually everything from scratch made a big difference too. The key thing was a decent food processor so humous / pesto / cakes / coleslaw / veggie burgers can all be made really quickly

 gethin_allen 21 Oct 2022
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Batteries, usually the same ones as the tools that the manufacturer makes. All the big tool companies have their versions of these jackets so the decision which one to get would normally be dependent on which tool company you've already bought into.

Compared to power tools the jackets use surprisingly little energy so you don't need the massive capacity expensive batteries.

 gethin_allen 21 Oct 2022
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I think the idea is to encourage desirable outcomes and kickstart the change to low carbon vehicles. How would you do that or are you not a 'believer'

At what point does an incentive become unfair? I'd say that providing the chargers, applying a zero VED rate and exempting them from vehicle low emission zone fees is pretty good. Providing someone with free electricity seems a to be going too far.

I ride my bike to work as much as possible, emitting very very little CO2 and causing very little wear on the roads. People scream and shout when anyone installs a (usually wholly unsuitable) cycle lane despite the fact that I'm still paying all appropriate taxes and leaving the car on the drive.

 Uncle Derek 21 Oct 2022
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> I think the idea is to encourage desirable outcomes and kickstart the change to low carbon vehicles. How would you do that or are you not a 'believer'

A desirable outcome would be a much more bike and pedestrian friendly society. The car driving majority have claimed the political advantage with the main drive being to perpetuating people having individual cars, whereas it IMHO it should be aimed at public transport, walking and cycling.
As a starting point I would heavily fine any car parked on a pavement or a bike lane, for the first offence, and for the second, crush it. Car drivers whine they have nowhere to park, then take their problem, which they should have considered before they bought their car, and give that problem to pedestrians, cyclists, blind people, children and disable people.
<Sorry Rant Over>

3

Probs just gonna go for a promotion tbh

Definitely want next house to have solar and ground heat source though

 henwardian 21 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

> If you are saying that my use of words was loose, I won't deny it. It was late and I was tired, but I was curious to know how people are going to deal with their own cost of living problems, which are very likely to get worse.

Ah, that is indeed a bit of a different question. I would guess that people will fall into 2 camps: Those who cut non-essential spending and those who start falling into debt (or fall further).

I would guess middle income people will cut thing like luxury products and holidays first. I don't know what low income people will cut first but I do not buy into the "heat or eat" arguments I've seen around the place. I've lived below the poverty line in the past for... hmm, I think it was a number of years and it is absolutely still enough money for life's essentials. It just isn't enough money for the gaudy garbage modern society attempts to convince you that you really need.

Speaking personally, at this moment my living expenses are very low so the cost of living rise is having a minimal effect on me.

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 henwardian 21 Oct 2022
In reply to bouldery bits:

> So I could put the heating on if only I believed hard enough.

That statement has two possible meanings. No you cannot activate the heating with the power of your mind alone (but if it turns out you can, please teach me how to be a jedi too, I've been wanting to learn for years). Yes you can put the heating by getting up and switching it on with your finger if you believe in your own ability to do that.

I am assuming your heating isn't in some way broken. If it is, the answer would need to be longer and even more boring

4
 Richard Horn 21 Oct 2022
In reply to Twiggy Diablo:

We just had our solar installed (about 2 weeks ago), so far it has generated 96% of our electricity whilst still exporting 70% of the total generated back to the grid. Even today its been rainy all day and its generated enough to hardly require pulling any electricity from the grid. Its been a big outlay but the cost savings are such that it wont take too many years to pay itself back. 

To make the most of it we really need to switch further away from gas. We are already boiling water in the kettle before putting on the hob (e.g. for pasta), but really need to replace gas hob with induction, and also a smart immersion for the boiler.

Ground source heat pump will be next to get away from gas altogether if possible.... but thats another big investment... 

 bouldery bits 21 Oct 2022
In reply to henwardian:

> That statement has two possible meanings. No you cannot activate the heating with the power of your mind alone (but if it turns out you can, please teach me how to be a jedi too, I've been wanting to learn for years). Yes you can put the heating by getting up and switching it on with your finger if you believe in your own ability to do that.

Hahaha! 

Fair play. 

I can physically switch on the heating. I just can't actually afford to pay for it.... 

 girlymonkey 21 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

> I suggest that when your council next sits to work out where to make savings, that the first item they list are these chargers.

> Not only is it wrong to supply one sector of society with free "fuel" but not others, when the sector they are aiding is the one which can afford new cars, as opposed to the rest who either make do with older cars - or indeed can't afford a car in the first place - then their largesse is somewhat misdirected.

The discussion wasn't about right and wrong though, the question is what are we doing to cut down living costs. I am under no illusions that we will need to pay for it sometime, but whilst it is still free, I am absolutely happy to keep using it.

Just because we drive EVs, doesn't mean we have plenty of money. My mum gave us interest free loans for them. So yes, we are highly privileged that there is money in the family for this, but money is still tight for our own personal budget.

As for cycling, it is my preferred transport and I use it when I am not taking the dog with me. 

1
 fred99 22 Oct 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

Sorry if you thought I regarded your personal actions as questionable - I wasn't, and I have noted your high morals in the past on many subjects.

It's councils (and other organisations) who frequently seem to be more concerned about supporting those who don't actually need any support which I was questioning.

2
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

He's a regular anti-EV poster who rails against any incentives for trying to switch to electric.

In reply to Richard Horn:

> ...but really need to replace gas hob with induction,

Keep an eye on the economics of this.  Gas is still a lot cheaper than electricity - if you don't have a battery with your PV system, then the inductor will be quite a lot more expensive than a gas hob whenever it's not sunny.  One solution might be a plug in 13A inductor plate to use in the daytime whilst retaining the gas hobs for night (and for non ferromagnetic cookware).

> and also a smart immersion for the boiler.

Are you getting any sort of export payment?  If so, again, these probably don't add up.  The lost export is similar to the cost of the displaced gas so you don't actually save anything, and it's typically overall higher CO2 than just using gas.  These diverter immersion heaters only ever made sense for people with PV on 'deemed' (unmetered) export.

> Ground source heat pump will be next to get away from gas altogether if possible.... but thats another big investment... 

There's a £5k incentive for getting ASHP or GSHP, which helps.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> He's a regular anti-EV poster who rails against any incentives for trying to switch to electric.

He's got a point though.

6
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> A desirable outcome would be a much more bike and pedestrian friendly society. The car driving majority have claimed the political advantage with the main drive being to perpetuating people having individual cars, whereas it IMHO it should be aimed at public transport, walking and cycling.

> As a starting point I would heavily fine any car parked on a pavement or a bike lane, for the first offence, and for the second, crush it. Car drivers whine they have nowhere to park, then take their problem, which they should have considered before they bought their car, and give that problem to pedestrians, cyclists, blind people, children and disable people.

> <Sorry Rant Over>

No problem with anything you say.

In reply to fred99:

I suspect the days of free electric charging are numbered, particularly funded by local authorities. That will be more to do with their financial challenges than your views on fairness.

I know girlymonkey isn't driving around in a £100k Tesla or similar luxury of sports electric car and has a much more modest electric vehicle. She definitely should use free public chargers if it helps minimise the impact of the current cost of living disaster on her household.

1
 wercat 23 Oct 2022
In reply to veteye:

I think there may be a lot of changed behaviour caused by plummeting DC pension pots at the moment.  It looks terrible (and I'm not talking about a huge one either) fallen by a 6th in numeric value over the last 12 months not even allowing for inflationary erosion.  So much for sacrificing salary in the past.  Post Brexit reduced growth is going to lock this in I think and there are no further contributions to boost it as I'd already deferred taking it to make it last.

VSisjustamocker  must be happy as it hates pensioners anyway at least someone is pleased

Post edited at 12:53
 OCDClimber 23 Oct 2022
In reply to Richard Horn:

I've just moved into a 1 year old bungalow with a top rated EPC rating, solar panels and an air source heat pump. Unsurprisingly there is a smart meter but I can't see anything, anywhere that tells me whether I'm using the grid or my panels at any given time.  How do I do this? Where did you get your usage figures? Is it on the bill?  I haven't had one yet.

Post edited at 13:48
In reply to wercat:

My pension has also fallen (admittedly I’ve got another 30 years to rebuild it). 

It would suck to be in a position where you’re in your late 50s or early 60s and looking to retire soon and seeing your pension pot suck, however at a macro level it will encourage people to stay in the labour market for longer which isn’t a bad thing at the moment.

At least if you’re coming up for retirement you’re not waiting for your mortgage to double next Christmas.

This will drive my own economic behaviour. I’m going to be dirt poor once that happens.

 Dax H 23 Oct 2022
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

> however at a macro level it will encourage people to stay in the labour market for longer which isn’t a bad thing at the moment.

That's just great, let's all stay in work until we are, maybe 75 even. Hell why stop at all. Just work a 40 hour week until your in a box. 

I'm sure I will be fine doing heavy site work at 70 years old. 

 wercat 23 Oct 2022
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

no mortgage worries, just rent!

In reply to OCDClimber:

Is there a separate in-house display that's connected to the smart meter? The actual meter will probably be on the wall next to your consumer unit; the IHD is a little tablet-like device that connects wirelessly to the meter and can give you real time data.

 dunc56 23 Oct 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:>

> As for cycling, it is my preferred transport and I use it when I am not taking the dog with me. 

Looks like the dog has to go then ? Saves an EV doesn’t it ? And the carbon footprint of a dog ….

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 fred99 23 Oct 2022
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

> It would suck to be in a position where you’re in your late 50s or early 60s and looking to retire soon and seeing your pension pot suck, however at a macro level it will encourage people to stay in the labour market for longer which isn’t a bad thing at the moment.

So you're quite happy for people who are in their late 60's carrying on working - you do know that means fewer jobs for those leaving school/college.

Not only is your attitude anti-pensioner, it's also anti-youngster.

2
 Baz P 23 Oct 2022
In reply to fred99:

I thought that there were more jobs going than people who wanted jobs at the moment  I’m 75 and still working  nobody’s offered to take over yet.

 Richard Horn 23 Oct 2022
In reply to OCDClimber:

Our installation uses an app called ShinePhone, it gives real time and historic data on power used, generated, exported, level of charge in the battery etc... The installers provided a login so I would contact the installation company as I would presume they have some sort of equivalent app...

 Dax H 23 Oct 2022
In reply to Baz P:

> I thought that there were more jobs going than people who wanted jobs at the moment  I’m 75 and still working  nobody’s offered to take over yet.

There is an exception to every rule, I used to know a 75 year old who worked in a scrap yard humping steel everyday. 

Most people in manual jobs are not going to be able to do that though. 

OP veteye 23 Oct 2022
In reply to dunc56:

The mental health/stability of the household, is anchored by the dogs, so leave them alone. 

Certainly my sanity is tempered by my animals.

In reply to veteye:

> The mental health/stability of the household, is anchored by the dogs, so leave them alone. 

My mental stability is anchored by driving about 25000 miles per year to get to the hills and go climbing and by flying off on climbing trips. So I need to be left alone too.........  

1
OP veteye 23 Oct 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I wasn't aware that I was not leaving you alone (?), and if you are defending dunc56, he was suggesting keeping the electric vehicles, which suggests to me that he was wanting to keep the environmental side of things as good as possible...

Which leads to the amount of travelling involved with all of us going climbing, mountaineering etc: And I agree that climbing, running, walking etc keep my sanity intact. So I hope that all of us are trying to consider doing a little more thinking about our travel for our loved pastimes. Note: I am not saying, that you should not go Robert; Rather, I am saying to try and reduce what you do spend environmentally, and look at where you go. I am also guilty of travel to other parts for climbing etc.

Possibly I and others should move to a more mountainous environment, yet I don't know if I would cope with so well with the short day blues all the time, in some areas.

Oops, I am meandering through my thoughts... so sorry.

In reply to veteye:

I'm not defending or condemning anyone. We all do stuff that we like/keep us sane which is bad for the environment and owning a dog is no better or worse than the amount of driving or flying with an equivalent carbon footprint. And yes, we all ought to try to cut back.......

In reply to veteye:

Changed behaviour in this house:

Much more quick to turn lights off.  Heating still off (mild spell has helped).  Holidays next year tanked (shame as Father in law wants everyone to go to Malaysia with him for his 80th).  Oven (electric) usage watched very carefully.  I'm selling anything not nailed down on fleabay.  Shopping much more likely to buy own brand than Heinz (or whatever).  All other expenses greeted with the phrase "Is that money we don't HAVE to spend?".  I live in fear of the unforseen big expenses coming in (car/bike servicing - had to buy a new rear wheel for my bike a couple of days ago, that sucked). 

Month by month feels like we are just about keeping our heads above water. Two public sector workers doing fairly mundane middle management jobs at 0.8 FTE.

Happy Days!

 Forest Dump 24 Oct 2022
In reply to Bobling:

Due to health reasons I went down to 32hrs a week the start of this year, I couldn't have picked a worse time to do it! Granted, it was OH recommended, so not really a choice..

The impact definitely feels bigger than I had calculated..

In reply to fred99:

> So you're quite happy for people who are in their late 60's carrying on working - you do know that means fewer jobs for those leaving school/college.

> Not only is your attitude anti-pensioner, it's also anti-youngster.

Not only that. There's a reason your climbing grade goes down when you get over 70. Although there's a few down the wall who give the lie to that.

 Uncle Derek 24 Oct 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> My mental stability is anchored by driving about 25000 miles per year to get to the hills and go climbing and by flying off on climbing trips. So I need to be left alone too.........  

Maybe, you could be looking into dealing with the root causes of your mental instability, because there may come a time, wether through health or other external issues, that you will not be able to continue with your current lifestyle.

When I return from India, it will be the finale to a sequence of medium to long haul flights, that when I booked, I thought little of, but I am now very conscious of the environmental damage.

For me cycle touring and trains, will scratch the travel itch.

But I keep thinking back to my fathers question about all my travelling, "What are you looking for" Answer that, and you are nearly there.

3
In reply to Uncle Derek:

> Maybe, you could be looking into dealing with the root causes of your mental instability, because there may come a time, wether through health or other external issues, that you will not be able to continue with your current lifestyle.

My lifestyle and activity has evolved with age and it will continue to do so, but I am sure that it will always, as far as is possible be rooted in the hills, rocks and mountains.


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