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The people of Britain aren't clever or informed enough to make a decision on whether we should be in the EU. Discuss.
arehttp://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/miliband-denies-y...
arehttp://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/miliband-denies-y...
In reply to Donnie:
I can only speak of myself. I therefore support the motion put forward in the original post.
I can only speak of myself. I therefore support the motion put forward in the original post.
Post edited at 23:04
Do you seriously think the vast majority of the British public have the first clue whether being in or out of the EU is best for Britain?
Do they f*ck!!!
Most will vote 'leave' because there's too many immigrants for starters!
Innit.
In reply to Lusk:
So you're saying they are intelligent enough then.
> Do you seriously think the vast majority of the British public have the first clue whether being in or out of the EU is best for Britain?
!> Most will vote 'leave' because there's too many immigrants for starters!
So you're saying they are intelligent enough then.
In reply to Donnie:
We're not smart enough for any referendum. That's not a reflection on us as a country, just the nature of referendums. How much independent research do you think people did before voting at the AV referendum? I reckon an average of about 5 minutes, because most people would have done none. People voted no because they didn't like Nick Clegg and because that's the way the wind was blowing at the time.
When you put a deeply complicated question to the country people seem to approach it as if they're answering a survey about what cheese they like. "I'm out, bloody europe meddling in our business. Keep the pound!" or "I'm voting to stay in because otherwise no one will buy our stuff". An utterly, utterly useless way to make policy.
The only thing that surprises me with referendums is the low turn out, everyone's always an expert in this country with wild, uninformed opinions about all and sundry that they're dying to tell everyone about. Yet no one turns up when they're asked.
We're not smart enough for any referendum. That's not a reflection on us as a country, just the nature of referendums. How much independent research do you think people did before voting at the AV referendum? I reckon an average of about 5 minutes, because most people would have done none. People voted no because they didn't like Nick Clegg and because that's the way the wind was blowing at the time.
When you put a deeply complicated question to the country people seem to approach it as if they're answering a survey about what cheese they like. "I'm out, bloody europe meddling in our business. Keep the pound!" or "I'm voting to stay in because otherwise no one will buy our stuff". An utterly, utterly useless way to make policy.
The only thing that surprises me with referendums is the low turn out, everyone's always an expert in this country with wild, uninformed opinions about all and sundry that they're dying to tell everyone about. Yet no one turns up when they're asked.
In reply to Donnie:
Anyone who's informed on the issue will know that the EU is nothing more than an agreement between a bunch of thieves as to who gets to exploit whom. People who work for wages or salaries have absolutely no stake in this issue. It's irrelevant. Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
Anyone who's informed on the issue will know that the EU is nothing more than an agreement between a bunch of thieves as to who gets to exploit whom. People who work for wages or salaries have absolutely no stake in this issue. It's irrelevant. Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
In reply to Lusk:
You do realise that The Daily Mash article is a parody of Milliband, do you? He didn't actually say that, though you seem to be taking it seriously.
You do realise that The Daily Mash article is a parody of Milliband, do you? He didn't actually say that, though you seem to be taking it seriously.
In reply to Donnie: Given the way most of the debate has gone for the Scottish referendum, and what happened with the AV referendum, you would have to say yes, the UK is too stupid.
The main thrust of debate would probably end up on something like the metric martyrs and how the EU tried to ban pounds and ounces and we would vote to leave based on something absurd like that..
The main thrust of debate would probably end up on something like the metric martyrs and how the EU tried to ban pounds and ounces and we would vote to leave based on something absurd like that..
In reply to Donnie:
Yes they are not.
> The people of Britain aren't clever or informed enough to make a decision on whether we should be in the EU. Discuss.
Yes they are not.
In reply to Donnie:
Of course the public are too poorly informed. All people will be doing is voting on their instinct and / or prejudices.
Given Europes history for in fighting and warring amongst its constituant nations, tighter ties between them can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
Of course the public are too poorly informed. All people will be doing is voting on their instinct and / or prejudices.
Given Europes history for in fighting and warring amongst its constituant nations, tighter ties between them can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
In reply to silhouette:
What's a parody?
> You do realise that The Daily Mash article is a parody of Milliband, do you? He didn't actually say that, though you seem to be taking it seriously.
What's a parody?
In reply to stroppygob:
No, he's saying sentimentality and prejudice are sufficient to exert an opinion.
> So you're saying they are intelligent enough then.
No, he's saying sentimentality and prejudice are sufficient to exert an opinion.
In reply to chris j:
Erm, dunno about that. Setting an actual date for a referendum would force out into the open, some folk who actually do have a fair few brain cells but don't see any need to bother at the moment. I'd be interested to hear The Thoughts of Chairmen Carney, Johnson and Portillo for example. And I don't think the Scottish referendum is a bad precedent; it has forced one set of protagonists to actually come up with a set of scenarios which can then be ruthlessly tested for plausibility (and found wanting).
> Given the way most of the debate has gone for the Scottish referendum, and what happened with the AV referendum, you would have to say yes, the UK is too stupid.
Erm, dunno about that. Setting an actual date for a referendum would force out into the open, some folk who actually do have a fair few brain cells but don't see any need to bother at the moment. I'd be interested to hear The Thoughts of Chairmen Carney, Johnson and Portillo for example. And I don't think the Scottish referendum is a bad precedent; it has forced one set of protagonists to actually come up with a set of scenarios which can then be ruthlessly tested for plausibility (and found wanting).
In reply to Donnie:
Sounds perfectly reasonable. It is also consistent with historical precedent in electoral matters.
Take, for instance, the Government of Ireland Act 1920. This introduced Proportional Representation of the Single Tranferable vote variety. It was introduced all across Ireland. Although this was fine for the Irish, the British were too feckin thick to use STV until recent times when limited introduction has taken place.
Makes perfect sense.
> The people of Britain aren't clever or informed enough to make a decision on whether we should be in the EU. Discuss.
Sounds perfectly reasonable. It is also consistent with historical precedent in electoral matters.
Take, for instance, the Government of Ireland Act 1920. This introduced Proportional Representation of the Single Tranferable vote variety. It was introduced all across Ireland. Although this was fine for the Irish, the British were too feckin thick to use STV until recent times when limited introduction has taken place.
Makes perfect sense.
Post edited at 10:03
In reply to Donnie:
Best. Thread. Ever.
You all know that the Daily Mash is a satirical website, similar to The Onion in America? Please tell me you're all taking this seriously as you're in on the joke?
Best. Thread. Ever.
You all know that the Daily Mash is a satirical website, similar to The Onion in America? Please tell me you're all taking this seriously as you're in on the joke?
In reply to chris j:
A few shouty voices do not represent the population of the UK.
Yes, we are smart enough, just like we're smart enough to pick our politicians. It's a dangerous thing to claim that we shouldn't be allowed to make our own decisions and should leave them to the clever people - however those "clever" people are picked.
A few shouty voices do not represent the population of the UK.
Yes, we are smart enough, just like we're smart enough to pick our politicians. It's a dangerous thing to claim that we shouldn't be allowed to make our own decisions and should leave them to the clever people - however those "clever" people are picked.
In reply to mattrm:
Are you seriously saying satire exists in a vacuum from making serious points and criticism. I should stop reading private eye!! Of course people can see the satire in the daily mash article, of course they can see the serious points in and around that satire too.
> Best. Thread. Ever.
> You all know that the Daily Mash is a satirical website, similar to The Onion in America? Please tell me you're all taking this seriously as you're in on the joke?
Are you seriously saying satire exists in a vacuum from making serious points and criticism. I should stop reading private eye!! Of course people can see the satire in the daily mash article, of course they can see the serious points in and around that satire too.
In reply to mattrm:
'Everyone knows this is satire, right?', asks man.
A grown up man who finished GCSE English more than a decade has asked whether everyone else knows an obviously satirical article is satirical in order to demonstrate his own grasp of the concept, unwittingly outing himself as a bit slow.
Casual observer, Tom Logan observed, '..... etc. and so on.
Sorry
'Everyone knows this is satire, right?', asks man.
A grown up man who finished GCSE English more than a decade has asked whether everyone else knows an obviously satirical article is satirical in order to demonstrate his own grasp of the concept, unwittingly outing himself as a bit slow.
Casual observer, Tom Logan observed, '..... etc. and so on.
Sorry
Post edited at 10:43
In reply to thomasadixon:
Looking at our politicians, I would have to dispute that as well. It's been said that a people get the leaders they deserve, in which case god help the lot of us!
> ...just like we're smart enough to pick our politicians.
Looking at our politicians, I would have to dispute that as well. It's been said that a people get the leaders they deserve, in which case god help the lot of us!
In reply to thomasadixon:
No, given voter turn-outs, the representative position of the population is 'can't be arsed'...
> A few shouty voices do not represent the population of the UK.
No, given voter turn-outs, the representative position of the population is 'can't be arsed'...
In reply to chris j:
Voter turnouts in general elections is always the majority, and us choosing our politicians has got us here - you think we're doing badly? I don't, certainly not compared to those countries without democracy.
Voter turnouts in general elections is always the majority, and us choosing our politicians has got us here - you think we're doing badly? I don't, certainly not compared to those countries without democracy.
In reply to Donnie:
For every complicated problem there is a simple answer. That is invariably wrong.
For every complicated problem there is a simple answer. That is invariably wrong.
In reply to Donnie: I think the British people are clever enough but a referendum would be hard fought and hugely distracting, when we've got other things to worry about.
In reply to Donnie:
Yes , I would say that joe public is not to be trusted with the European question .
I'm not being mean here but to quote a line from 'Sherlock' : ''You're an idiot ! Oh , don't worry , most people are ...''
The future of the the UK should not depend on knee jerk reaction votes in which all common sense and rational thought are abandoned .
Politicians are not really much better than you and I at making choices , but I get the idea that if the general public are given the choice they will (fueled by xenophobic writings in the Daily Mail and Express ) make a stupid decision based on their views of immigrants who 'come over here , taking our job's '' etc .
Yes , I would say that joe public is not to be trusted with the European question .
I'm not being mean here but to quote a line from 'Sherlock' : ''You're an idiot ! Oh , don't worry , most people are ...''
The future of the the UK should not depend on knee jerk reaction votes in which all common sense and rational thought are abandoned .
Politicians are not really much better than you and I at making choices , but I get the idea that if the general public are given the choice they will (fueled by xenophobic writings in the Daily Mail and Express ) make a stupid decision based on their views of immigrants who 'come over here , taking our job's '' etc .
In reply to Donnie:
I think we are all clever enough, just too selfish to come up with a resounding Yes vote.
I think we are all clever enough, just too selfish to come up with a resounding Yes vote.
In reply to Donnie:
It's not so much that we're to stupid, it's more that we don't have the time and / or inclination to wade through the opposing sets of disingenuous of propaganda and make an informed decision.
It's not so much that we're to stupid, it's more that we don't have the time and / or inclination to wade through the opposing sets of disingenuous of propaganda and make an informed decision.
In reply to Donnie:
Not sure we really need one, if this true:
http://uk.isidewith.com/poll/434669857
Not sure we really need one, if this true:
http://uk.isidewith.com/poll/434669857
In reply to Donnie:
> The people of Britain aren't clever or informed enough to make a decision on whether we should be in the EU. Discuss.
>
We're too stupid and uninformed to make a decision on anything. Why don't we abandon voting entirely?In reply to Postmanpat:
Whats your alternative. Vote on everything? Vote on tax rates, vote on healthcare spending, vote on minimum wage etc. Or vote on a party and leave them to make "hopefully informed decisions in our best interest"..
Whats your alternative. Vote on everything? Vote on tax rates, vote on healthcare spending, vote on minimum wage etc. Or vote on a party and leave them to make "hopefully informed decisions in our best interest"..
In reply to Postmanpat:
That's a good idea. We're probably too stupid to elect people to do it for us either. What we need someone to make all the decisions for us and run the country. But a group of people will just bicker too much. Perhaps just a single person? Someone who perhaps also has control of the armies... a singular leader that dictates everything perhaps...
> We're too stupid and uninformed to make a decision on anything. Why don't we abandon voting entirely?
That's a good idea. We're probably too stupid to elect people to do it for us either. What we need someone to make all the decisions for us and run the country. But a group of people will just bicker too much. Perhaps just a single person? Someone who perhaps also has control of the armies... a singular leader that dictates everything perhaps...
In reply to crayefish:
As long as it's me. Sounds like a plan…...
> That's a good idea. We're probably too stupid to elect people to do it for us either. What we need someone to make all the decisions for us and run the country. But a group of people will just bicker too much. Perhaps just a single person? Someone who perhaps also has control of the armies... a singular leader that dictates everything perhaps...
As long as it's me. Sounds like a plan…...
In reply to GrahamD:
Is that opinion based on instinct or prejudice?
> Of course the public are too poorly informed. All people will be doing is voting on their instinct and / or prejudices.
> Given Europes history for in fighting and warring amongst its constituant nations, tighter ties between them can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
Is that opinion based on instinct or prejudice?
In reply to billb:
I'd have very occasional referenda on absolutely key issues, of which I consider the EU to be one.
Further we need to find a way to make our "democracy" much more interactive. e.g. MPs should be subject to recall more easily. There should be more direct democracy but there must also be institutionalised restraints to stop politicians making unfeasible and contradictory promises.
> Whats your alternative. Vote on everything? Vote on tax rates, vote on healthcare spending, vote on minimum wage etc. Or vote on a party and leave them to make "hopefully informed decisions in our best interest"..
I'd have very occasional referenda on absolutely key issues, of which I consider the EU to be one.
Further we need to find a way to make our "democracy" much more interactive. e.g. MPs should be subject to recall more easily. There should be more direct democracy but there must also be institutionalised restraints to stop politicians making unfeasible and contradictory promises.
In reply to Postmanpat:
We'll you're welcome to be the UK dictator but I'll be overlord of the world so you'll have to answer to me!
> As long as it's me. Sounds like a plan…...
We'll you're welcome to be the UK dictator but I'll be overlord of the world so you'll have to answer to me!
In reply to Donnie:
A person can be very intelligent, but if they are not informed enough they cannot make a good decision.
I'm not very well informed on the whole issue, that is my own fault but it could be that the relevant information is not being distributed enough. I'd say ditto for the vast majority of the population.
A person can be very intelligent, but if they are not informed enough they cannot make a good decision.
I'm not very well informed on the whole issue, that is my own fault but it could be that the relevant information is not being distributed enough. I'd say ditto for the vast majority of the population.
In reply to Donnie:
I listened to Mandelson on R4 on this , and his slimey fingerprints are all over this one. (but he did not rule it out, just said if some more powers are to be taken away, then the Labour party would offer one. If the status Quo prevails then no vote.
I don't know who is clever enough to vote though. Some are, some not, and some that think they are , are probably amongst the least competant.
I listened to Mandelson on R4 on this , and his slimey fingerprints are all over this one. (but he did not rule it out, just said if some more powers are to be taken away, then the Labour party would offer one. If the status Quo prevails then no vote.
I don't know who is clever enough to vote though. Some are, some not, and some that think they are , are probably amongst the least competant.
In reply to Jim C:
The truth is that this is not really about politician's wanting to give the people freedom of choice, this is about one party of politicians wanting to have power over all other parties and they think offering people a perceived choice about their future direction in Europe is going to be a big vote winner (and they may be right). The fact that the population has no idea how to vote or even what information to base their votes on is irrelevant (to the politicians).
The truth is that this is not really about politician's wanting to give the people freedom of choice, this is about one party of politicians wanting to have power over all other parties and they think offering people a perceived choice about their future direction in Europe is going to be a big vote winner (and they may be right). The fact that the population has no idea how to vote or even what information to base their votes on is irrelevant (to the politicians).
In reply to Mr Ed:
Like!
The world seems to be full of people giving simple answers to complicated questions.
> For every complicated problem there is a simple answer. That is invariably wrong.
Like!
The world seems to be full of people giving simple answers to complicated questions.
Post edited at 13:37
In reply to Chambers:
youtube.com/watch?v=fMKsR_wUSfA&
> (In reply to Donnie)
>
> Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
>
> Workers of the world unite. You have nothing to lose but your chains.
youtube.com/watch?v=fMKsR_wUSfA&
Post edited at 04:51
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