UKC

With all the tragic things happening in the US I believe it’s important we all start talking about how we can help and do our bit from the UK. The brutal murder of George Floyd and many other black citizens by the police is heartbreaking and police brutality needs to be put to a stop. I want to start this thread so everyone can share resources and links of how we can make a difference. 
 

I find it extremely worrying how there’s has been little to no mention of this on here yet, I’d of expected an article published or lots of threads but instead there is silence, I know this is a climbing forum but we were all very quick to comment on the politics of brexit and current world affairs, so why not this? There’s been a severe lack of climbing brands and climbing centres helping to spread these important messages which is really dissapointing. Please start talking about it, Black Lives Matter! 
 

Here is a link to lots of helpful resources that to help do your bit : https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

please share any other links or ideas on how we can make changes!

There's been a thread discussing the UK impact running since Sunday

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/the_pub/protests_in_london_over_george_fl...

Two years ago I went to Mobile, Alabama. Ostensibly, to be part of the oldest Mardi Gras in North America, but really to have a "look" at the South.  My first experience of how the South works was at the airport.  Naturally, I expected some kind of transit from the airport to downtown Mobile, where I had booked an AirBnB.  The brown folks at the airport information desk laughed at me for asking about transit.  Since white folks drive, then why should they pay taxes for public transit?  I ended up taking a taxi to the nearby the hospital, where I hoped to catch a bus.  The black driver, after I'd asked the question about transit, told me that Alabama was probably the most "Reb" state in the union.  Remember Birmingham, Alabama? I was determined to get on a bus and found that the service was infrequent and was only used by black people.  It was driven by a black driver and we went through desperately poor areas of desolate housing and boarded up structures.

Eventually, I got downtown.  I joined in a parade of white high-school grads.  The local elite.  Next day I saw the black high-school grads, blowing trumpets and banging drums.  Everyone one in their places, doing what was expected.  I made friends with an extended black family and ate excellent bbq food with them, a couple of blocks from where the parades where passing by.  We spent three days together talking about food, Canada/USA, ourselves, and what we do.

I'm white, and after thinking about this for decades I think I know what "White Privilege" is.

I hope this moves your posting along.  I live in Canada.  I'll write more later.

Andrew 

I guess racism is less obvious in the UK. I'm sure it exists, but many of us probably see the scenes from the states and think it's not something that we can do anything about. 

I have some friends living in Darvel in Ayrshire. They moved there a couple of years back and have 2 kids. They are a mixed race couple, she is a very dark skinned Indian and he is white Scottish. I was on the phone to them recently and she was saying that their son (aged 9 I think) won't acknowledge anything to do with his Indian heritage and has made very few friends in his new school. Their daughter does an Indian dance class and is quite happy being part Indian. Apparently he hasn't said anything about being bullied or race being mentioned, but they are the only people with brown skin in the area. Who knows whether he just feels different, or if he has been made to feel different by other kids. It's sad as he is a super chatty, friendly and incredibly bright young lad. The Indian side of the family keep in touch really regularly and visit often, and he seems to enjoy trips to India. But, if it is due to racism that he feels like this, then it's not visible. And I guess it feels harder to tackle when it is not overt. 

What messages do you want to spread and what changes do you think should be made?  I reckon climbers etc are just about the least racist group of people I have ever known, so not sure what you think we should do. 

That thread was made as a discussion in regards the recent protests in London. 

As far as I am aware there were no threads discussing the event itself and terrible issues it raises on here. Therefore, I think this thread has been created to help raise awareness and provide useful resources. 

In the spirit of this here's a link with some books about white privilege and the black lives matter movement - 

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a32739526/racism-books-black-lives-...

As a white person I am sure I sadly do not know enough about the privilege I have, so have vowed to use these resources to learn more.

It's a bit concerning that despite positive comments, you've received so many silent downvotes

That's why I thoroughly dislike the dislike button. It's ambiguous and tells us nothing.  I was tempted to dislike because I dislike the phrase "black lives matter".  It implies other lives do not.  I do however agree with the sentiment.

Al

ALL lives matter.

It's a hoary old cliché, but......

All homes matter, but it's probably important to put out the one that's on fire before you repaint the others

I genuinely don't know if you understand why to many people saying that is actively insulting, particularly at the current moment, and you posted it BECAUSE you know that? Or whether you genuinely don't understand the political context of that statement so don't see that you are spreading what, in effect, has become a far-right meme?

Black Lives Matter is designed to be a challenging slogan and it would be a naive person who didn't expect a response such as that quoted by MyP.  There's a fundamental truth in both statements and if anything we should be supporting both statements rather than writing one off as  extreme right wing property like we have done with things in the past

I would gladly engage in debate, any chance you could answer my other questions though?  I work with asylum seekers and refugees (on a tea break as I type) and issues of racism, inclusion, cohesion etc. impact upon my work.  I also have a number of views, informed by experience and through listening to what people say, about the UK and why people come here and thus the reputation we have amongst parts of Africa and the Middle East (where we are overwhelmingly considered to be a very democratic, inclusive and anti-racist country).  The UK is far from perfect but is a miles ahead of the USA - they could learn a lot from us but with a total dick in charge and a hegemony that results in pro-gun, anti immigrant values, they have their work cut out in improving things.

In the mid 90s I drove a back route across Florida.  We went through what was in effect a black township made from 40 foot container units stacked two high.

But "all lives matter" used as a response to "black lives matter", has been propagated and weaponised to diminish and attack anti-racist activism and sentiment. I genuinely have no idea why mypyrex felt the urge to counter the original post with that statement which is why I asked the question.  

It is unclear if mypyrex's response was made with the understanding that 'all lives matter' is now a firmly established far right trope.

It's entirely possible they said it without realising its connotations - in which case the answer I would give is 'yes, yes they do, but the police don't seem to be systematically murdering white people so let's concentrate on the black ones for now'.

I disagree (speaking as a 50 something white bloke).

You can knee jerk and say “But all lives matter”, which was probably my default position, or you can think about it and realise it's not “Black Live Matter and nobody else's does”, it's “Black Lives Matter TOO”.

That's the difference. The fact large numbers of people fell the need to have to protest that black lives are EQUALLY, (not MORE), important than anyone else's shows that something is clearly badly wrong in the US, and possibly here too.

I agree with everything you say about the UK compared to the USA. I just don't think it ever hurts to learn more and this is something I definitely do not know enough about. 

The thread asked people to spread resources and I thought it would be good to do that.

Personally I've downvoted because I think the original post needlessly attacks a whole group of people (the forum) for not talking (even though it has been mentioned) about something that they think should be being talked about. Why not just start a thread and start talking if it's so vital to talk about it?

I am of course horrified at some of the US police actions and how it closes ranks around people who should not be protected. Ironically some of the police responses to the protests by the police have demonstrated the kind of aggressive behaviour which people are worried about in the first place.

Personally I'm not sure there's much we can do from the UK if Americans don't want to sort themselves out. However there are so many issues it would be nice to see America take a different stance on (climate change probably being my top one), so would be interesting to hear any ideas. 

Because you don't have to be a right wing extremist to find the phrase Black Lives Matter  a bit of a gauntlet thrown down and that's what it was intended to be. If people take up the challenge with a retort based on semantics as much as politics then it's only to be expected. 

My Pyrex probably believes the same as everyone else on UKC that All Lives Matter.  The fact that certain political factions are promoting the phrase should not prevent us from accepting its truth and, even though I have reservations about "reclaiming" language, taking it back by using it. They can only hi-jack our language ( and our flag) if we allow them to do so.

As to the choice of words in the phrase, I'm willing to bet that "Black Lives Matter"   is preferred over "Black Lives Matter Too" precisely because it is more challenging.

I get what you're saying.  I would hope that everyone here would agree on the principle that all lives do matter. 

However, I think that when it comes to the specific phrase "all lives matter" we've lost this one - once it's getting chanted at far right rallies then I don't see that we have a way to reclaim it.

Look at what Ridge has written above - it explains it perfectly. I have no idea what led mypyrex to respond with just that slogan - perhaps he is completely unaware of its use to diminish the idea of "black lives matter" - again, that's why I asked the question. It's clearly not true, otherwise there would be no Black Lives Matter movement.

The urge to state it in response to "black lives matter" seems to want to hide the fact in too many cases black lives don't matter. It seems a perfect example, to use another phrase of the moment, of white fragility. https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-sociologist-examines-the-whit...

I'll go back to what Ridge said:

Pick up the gauntlet and try it on! It's made of steel! All the better for smashing systems of oppression with!

I'll go with "Black Lives  Matter Too", then, but I suspect that won't be good enough for some.

This is a relatively small forum based around a leisure activity with the majority of non-climbing content generated (especially started) by a small percentage of users.

I suspect the vast majority of users here also consume/contribute to current affairs on other platforms.  I myself have been following / contributing on other more mainstream platforms more heavily focussed on politics and current affairs as I  feel the topic belongs on the biggest platforms out there -  and don't feel the need to replicate everything across to this niche site. Yes racism should be challenged at every point - but I think I should focus my efforts on challenging  some of the abhorrent racism I see on other platforms rather than on UKC where the mods are quick and effective when such hate emerges.

My question to you is why did it take you until 00:53 on Thursday to say that you were worried that it had not been mentioned on here ? 

Why didn't you start a thread last week raising awareness yourself? 

 I suspect this is why you have attracted so many dislikes.

Threads down the pub don't have permanence. The pub is for non serious discussion 'as it says on the tin'. 

I think the UK is way more tolerant place than the US but even as a middle class liberal white bloke I have witnessed countless incidents of racist behaviour including a few serious ones (all of which were subsequently formalised but not all with positive results). 

As a related aside Roy Lilley, the Health Management expert, blogged this today relating to the Publc Health England report into their investigation into BAME related stats in the C19 pandemic:

The least I can do...
News and Comment from Roy Lilley

It was late.  We'd been to a conference. We we starving.  I pulled up outside a restaurant, my passenger nipped out; '... see if they had a table'...  '... sorry, they were fully booked'. I could see through the windows, the white table cloths, the twinkling candles and the empty chairs.  Stay here...  I swept past the manicured Bay Trees in the terracotta pots and pushed through the doors. 'D'you have a table for two?' Yes sir, right here... We parked and went back in.  The waiter was gobsmacked to see me with the woman he had just refused.  Nothing was said.  We sat down, went through the card. My colleague, was black.  West Indian, born and bred here, educated here, medical school here and a public health doctor here. Sadly, she died a few years ago.

That was the first time, in my white, suburban bubble, racial prejudice had touched my life. I ran a business, I recruited talent, not skin colour.  I was a councillor, a member of a health authority, what we now call BAME colleagues were abundant and valued.  It never dawned on me they were leading two lives.  A life with a thin veneer of equality and the real-world life of queues, bus seats, shops, pubs with an ugly undercurrent that I had never seen... until the night of the restaurant. We talked about that evening.  She told of her life; early years, career, work and struggle.  Because she was black.  How it was still a struggle for her kids.  Time and again, stopped in the street for no reason, other than they were black. Later, at the OU, I met two delightful women, celebrating their Masters in healthcare.  If I were a social demographer I'd call them Waitrose women.  John Lewis people! I asked them about their ambitions...  they didn't think they could get beyond middle management in the NHS... despite their new qualifications.  Because?  Because they were black.

When the nation started noticing more BAME colleagues were dying we asked the reasonable question... why? HMG needed to know if all BAME people were affected.  There is an issue about which and what jobs are most at risk.  We need to know if the clinical approach should be different and is the risk so high, black and ethnic colleagues need to be shielded and what the impact of that would be on rota, staffing and employment.  We needed to dig into, why?

Public Health England were assigned the task... on tight deadlines. By all accounts, they scraped-home.  Delivering the final report on Sunday 31st May. By Tuesday, when the report was published, it had become useless. Read it.  Frankly it is no more than a teenager could do, with a lap-top and Google. It is a succession of graphs, numbers, unanswered question, flam-flam and gobbledygook.

In answer to the question why are more BAME colleagues dying of CV-19, the answer the report gives us... because they are BAME. If this report were an item of foot-ware, it would be slippers.  If it was an offensive weapon it would be a cotton-bud.  If this was a serious academic study it would shame the professions from whence it came. Except... it is none of those things.  It is simply, incomplete.  It's a eunuch report.  A vital bit missing.  Between the Sunday deadline and the Tuesday publication, it was censored, a chapter removed and the report rejigged. Chunks of commentary and insight from ethnic groups and organisations, telling us back people are poorer: poor housing, poor-pay, poor access to services; still subject to discrimination; front-line exposure in vital services, vulnerability... were cut out. All the reasons that are inflammatory of public policy, an embarrassment for politicians of all flavours, that shame us and make it difficult to look in the mirror... were dumped.

PHE knows this.  My message to PHE is; publish the missing pages.  You owe it to every BAME person living in this country.  A country defined by the White Cliffs of Dover. Publish it PHE, or be damned.  And, if you won't, someone, send it to me and I will.  If you made a contribution to the report and it was left out, send it to me and I'll publish it.

It's the least I can do. 

Would love to agree with you, but when we still have routes called things like WOGS and Black Bastard I don't think others, particularly non-climbers, would see it the same way!

I think you need to be very careful about route names... these can be satirical or political so you might be accusing an anti racist named route of being evidence of racism.

That’s two out of how many named routes in the country?

One was named in 1923 so it’s probably impossible to ask the first ascentionist the reason why they chose that name.

The other is from the 1980’s, I think, and is on Black Wall, so it could be an intentionally racist name or a description of its location and difficulty. You could possibly ask the first ascentionist about this one.

So you don't agree with me then?

It feels almost as if you feel you should have a say in 'their' slogan, like they should have got your permission before 'they' used it but you'll reluctantly give your permission if 'they' would just change it to make it acceptable to you.

I think you're right though that it's phrased ambiguously to be slightly challenging. It's almost like gaining some attention might be a fundamental attribute of a good slogan...

''There’s been a severe lack of climbing brands and climbing centres helping to spread these important messages which is really dissapointing.''

What messages do you think climbing brands and climbing centres be spreading?  Genuine question.

I would hazard that the "downvotes" as you call them, are due to this

"there’s has been little to no mention of this on here yet, I’d of expected an article published or lots of threads but instead there is silence"

The OP has clearly not put much effort into conducting a simple forum search, and I don't see that UKC has an obligation to commission and publish an official article about the George Floyd incident. 

sorry I think you may be replying to the wrong person, I did not write that post  

You're right, I'm getting confused - apols for that.

Read it as Black live matter too!

Not as Only Black Lives Matter.

And you'll see why there's a difference, it's not about extreme right, it's about what it's say, all-be it unwittingly, but it's still a statement.

Yes, the FA might be happy with a name change. 

That's an interesting point.  I hadn't really thought of them in that context to be honest, they were just names of routes. So are UKC guilty of distributing racist material? Or should we view historical data in the context of exactly that, historical and a of different age?

It's a bit like criticising the film Blazing Saddles for being racist, which many did, whereas in fact it was ridiculing the racists.

Al

I’m glad to see there’s been a couple of threads spring up but please note how I said little to no - two days ago a huge social media campaign was launched (blackout tuesday) which aimed to show solidarity among people, show that everyone is supporting the cause, a day of silence from posting about your everyday lives and yourself, but a lot of climbing walls and brands didn’t take part in this despite their presence on social media. I would have thought UKC themselves may have spoken up, to show their support to the people fighting this battle, to show they agree Black Lives Matter, or to simply tell people of their support to BAME members of this community. That is all! This reply is not solely directed at you but a lot of the other comments too - I hope that helps to make sense of the post. It also shouldn’t be questioned that I thought another thread should be made... as if that’s a bad thing? There’s enough threads about brexit, why not about this?

What is happening right now has not sprung from people just being anti racist, but also taking action on that and speaking out about it, spreading the conversation. I don’t doubt that we are all majority anti racist, but I wanted to have a place we can all show each other different ways we can help from the UK and educate ourselves. This is why I didn’t just say what I thought and left it like that, I left a link with multiple resources on what we can do by literally just sitting on our phones, signing petitions, donating money, emailing our local MPs. And, considering the amount of down votes my post has, I think it’s something that needs to be talked about, why are people so scared by this topic, we should be having these conversations because I’m sure somewhere on UKC there ARE people that don’t understand why we’re saying Black Lives Matter or ARE actually racist, I hope this makes sense.

Actually that is just two that came to mind, there's a lot more than two dodgy route names. You know this full well yourself of course though.

I honestly can’t believe people would downvote this thread, that in itself it appalling and really shows why we need to be talking about these things! Thanks for being supportive

I certainly think that the vast majority are very open-minded and accepting, but as with everything there is always the odd bad apple. It's very naive to think otherwise I feel.

Maybe we didn’t need to start a thread on how worrying or awful it is because it is awful and it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that it is totally unacceptable to suffocate someone.  What happened was clearly murder.  I don’t see what there is to debate.  

What exactly should UKC put in an article that isn’t already covered elsewhere?

What good does a load of hand wringing actually do?

Hmmm, yes BLACK BASTARD isn't racist at all, it is an obvious anti-racist statement. How silly of me.

An earlier discussion after a request for research information. It includes links to earlier discussions as well.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/racist_or_sexist_route_names_pl...

I think this is something that gets hugely mistaken, because no one is saying that all lives don’t matter, but what people are saying is that right now Black lives aren’t being treated equally, Black people are getting killed on the street by the police, being targeted and murdered and the killers are getting away with it. The point of saying Black Lives Matter is to show that they matter equally to all other lives, because right now to a lot of people they don’t matter, which is wrong. No one is saying that ONLY Black Lives Matter!

My point was more that non-climbers, or those new to climbing, might not understand the historical context of route names, they might just think that some climbers are massive racists (there's probably a few of them around anyway). WOGS was meant to be an acronym for wall, overhang, groove and slab or somesuchlike I think - but using an unfortunate acronym for it does smell a bit racist, it's like the FA was trying to be clever and risque with it. Not sure when it was done, maybe it was perfectly acceptable to say "wogs" in the days of the FA. And I don't agree with changing historical route names either, just to clarify.

I actually looked at a couple of old threads on UKC about dodgy route names.

These were the two stand out ones, I discounted’One less white nigger’.

Strange that a couple of threads only threw up 3 routes, you’re obviously much better informed than the UKC membership.

Do you see police kneeling on white people on the neck until they die?  

Right now this is not about you.  

Black people in America are being killed and have been treated for a long time as if their lives don’t matter.  

No one is suggesting that the police stop killing black people and start killing white people instead.  

By saying all lives matter you sound extremely ignorant and quite petulant.  

I’d put it down to your age if I was feeling charitable, but really the truth is my Dad would never say anything so insensitive.  

Get a grip.  

If you said this in relation to the route "just another white nigger" - or something similar, I can't recall the exact name right now - then yes i'd agree. But not all racist-seeming route names are satirical/political.

Apologies is my post comes across that way - but to be honest my aim with it was to just create a discussion of how, from the UK we can all make a difference. UKC has a huge audience, so do climbing walls, climbing brands etc and what I meant by it is that because they have this audience, I find it worrying they haven’t spoken out to show they stand in solidarity with what is happening and show how we can all do our bit, my aim isn’t to target everyone but rather just state how I have noticed a lack of involvement from the climbing community.

If you don’t understand how we can help from the UK, then that is why I made this thread, so we can share HOW to help, discuss what things we might be able to do. I shared a link to a lot of resources that I hope helps you see how you might be able to help out, no matter how small it may be! 

One less white nigger is a lyric from a song.  It’s referring to the Irish who also have suffered racism, particularly in England.  

wow Mick, really? 
 

we’ve had a black president..

And total dick in charge and not learning.. check the UKs COVID situation..

seriously it’s hard to compare. And again you have to be careful thinking of the US as one country. I live in Mass, I think we’re ahead of the U.K. even healthcare here isn’t that bad but in general it’s a very progressive state.

i think in many ways we have more social mobility. Look at the Tory party. Colin Powell said similar. He felt as a black man he faced lots of barriers but could get to the top in the US. He didn’t think he could in the U.K. we’ve had a few black politicians and top justices. In comparison the U.K. hasn’t really, certainly no PM.

its hard to say which is ahead, it really depends where you talk about and what mood I’m in. But anti immigration is as bad, if not worse in the  U.K., Brexit?

But I’d certainly not say it’s miles ahead. There’s still pretty bad segregation effectively in parts of the U.K. 

undoubtably we have an issue with our prisons and police brutality. And the US has a long way to go but I think racism is an issue globally still.

Well done for using the search feature. Judging by your profile and posting history, you don't seem to be much of an actual climber. Maybe if you climbed more and read more guidebooks then you'll come across some more dodgy route names.

Black Nix at Curbar springs to mind too. And there's one on sandstone called Thieving Gypsies. Lots more i'm sure but i'm not an encyclopedia of routes.

I don't know the historical details for that route  but reappropriation of racist offensive words has a long history and routes have been named directly based on that and through their cultural application (like song lyrics). I'd hope guidebook editors would change route names where racist intent was likely.

Why didn't you start a thread last week raising awareness yourself? "

Maybe they didn't down vote because of the subject matter, but because of how the initial post focussed on criticising other people for not posting (or not posting enough) on a UK based climbing forum about it. That was my reason, as I tried to explain above. Don't see why it's so appalling to find that disagreeable? Or should people never downvote a thread about a worthy cause regardless of whatever else gets tacked on to the back of it? 

So you think not talking about it is better? YOU may agree with the protests that are happening etc but that’s not to say that there’s people here that don’t feel the same. 
I’m a bit confused as to why you think this is a debate? My post clearly stated I wanted people to share links and resources on how we can help from the Uk- I didn’t say ‘does everyone think what happening is wrong?’ BIG difference. It’s RIDICULOUS attacking me for wanting to help people see ways they can help, what petitions they can sign, where they can donate to. 

I still don’t understand why people would ever dislike this comment.

I have no idea what ‘Black Nix‘ means. Is it some sort of racial slur? Maybe as a young whippersnapper (am I allowed to call you that?) you could inform me?

So far you’ve found 4 routes to substantiate your claim, surely you can find more.

And never judge a book by its cover or a person by their UKC profile.

I could accuse you of similar for your protest for that failure to search. The pub is for non serious threads.

When such subjects do get a lot of discussion here it disproportionately relates to the sensitivities of white men, perhaps unsurprising given the demographics here.

Several posters have offered coherent suggestions as to why your OP received "dislikes". 

You don't seem to be addressing those suggestions, instead you are just repeatedly complaining about the dislikes....which is making the whole thing about you and distracting from the issues you are trying to highlight.

Also, "dislikes" have taken on multiple meanings recently. They seem to be getting used sometimes like the "anger" emoji on Facebook, i.e. not a disagreement with, or criticism of, the post itself or the person posting it. 

Get outside and start clapping, you fool!

Thanks.

It’s  the reason why I excluded it from my list of racist names despite it containing the word nigger.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said but your post comes across to me as a little aggressive (as you imply of the OP) and by definition posts in the pub aren't serious and soon disappear.

On dislikes unless people explain why they used it (so the button is not needed anyway) others here have no idea of the intent. I see the button as a blight on UKC debate and I will be very glad when it's gone.

I can accept that I was wrong in stating ‘no’ talk of it and I can see now that there’s been a couple on threads in the pub section of the forum, which is for non serious conversation, and actually the thread you sent me was about London protests and that person not understanding why they were happening. 

I won’t lie to you, UKC threads aren’t something I find myself browsing 24/7 so I think it’s understandable I may have missed these, I had been told how there wasn’t much mention of it on here and I know that there are a lot of people that use this site. 
 

Perhaps the way I said the post could have been refined, but I still fail to see why that warrants people to attack the post and not just accept I said in the first paragraph that I created it for people to share links and show how we can all do our bit. That itself speaks volumes, for once could people just accept that now is the time to sign some bloody petitions or send a couple of emails or donate a fiver to a good cause and not get offended on a forum for me stating that there hasn’t been a huge conversation within the climbing community about it and that I’d like to change it and discuss ways we can help..

It’s just a bit ridiculous people think the way I say something on UKC is the be all and end all.

I didn't "send" you any threads

There is no aggression in any of my posts on this thread. I am mostly stating facts, and slightly offering helpful suggestions. 

Anyone who replies to blm with alm know exactly what their words mean. 

That is incorrect. It is for "Relaxed Conversation". 
Have a look at the topics on there now. They look mostly serious to me.

I think it would be fairer  to suggest that MyPyrex ( and I for that matter) should read up on the history  of the All Lives Matter  slogan rather than jumping on someone for their insulting  and ignorant behaviour.

It's easy not to keep up with  stuff  and not everyone is as well versed in current affairs/politics as each other, and even language use. Even hip dudes like Blue Straggler  can drop a clanger occasionally 

I'm really glad that you didn't put it down to his age because that in itself would have been very insulting.

I think you’ve misunderstood where I’m coming from with my post - I’m not saying that because these things haven’t been talked about it means no one cares and I’m assuming everyone’s a racist.. I didn’t start a debate or a discussion on racism, i very clearly stated I wanted to start a thread of how people can help and what things they can do from the UK, I don’t see why that’s an issue? 
 

In answer to your question, these protests are still happening it’s not exactly a thing of the past so I don’t see why it’s an issue for me to bring up now? I’m not an avid UKC user and can’t remember the last time I took part in a forum, but I know there are people that are like that and this is why I decided to start it. I fail to see the harm in sharing how we can help with what is happening in the US.

What do you think we can do that will affect goings on in tbe US that we aren't doing? 

Why are you being petty? You linked a thread in reply to my post. what’s the harm in sharing some petitions for people to sign, I’m sorry but this shouldn’t even been an argument, I’ve admitted that the tone or wording of the second paragraph could have been refined, end of.

I have no idea what people are or aren’t doing but the link I shared has lots and lots of links on how you can sign things, donate to causes, read up and educate. I was hoping what I shared would be a starting point for other resources people have but apparently people would rather argue about my post, haha! Hope it helps anyway.

You win your pedant point but I don't personaly understand the idea of a relaxed conversation on a social blight like racism!  I think such pub threads are for people who misuse the forum as they don't want want they say to remain on public record.  A point I forgot to make above is The Pub is only accessible for registered users.

I am not being “petty”. I am unhappy with it being stated that I did something such as “linking a thread” when I did no such thing. 

And your not being an avid user is no defence for not doing a better forum search before claiming that there has been “silence”.

Anyway there is no progress being made here so I’ll leave the thread. 

Apologies I thought it was you that linked the other thread but it was another user, I still fail to see why it matters but oh well.

I think it’s also to shed light on U.K. issues. Racism is creeping back into soccer for example. But the policing of COVID Regulations in the UK has allegations of racism.

i think Trump and Brexit have empowered racists, I’m not saying Trump voters or Brexit voters are all racists but there was a racist/xenophobic appeal in them.

I suspect you are right, although I guess there are people who might have seen "all lives matter" and not really understood the context of it becoming a way of attacking the BLM movement, including from the far right.

Don't know if you are an instagram user, but there was lots of to-ing and fro-ing over "blackout tuesday" post the other night. I noticed Shauna Coxsey getting caught up in it - whether it was just tokenism to post something in solidarity, or worse - it was performing "white exceptionalism"; or whether expressions of solidarity are actually a good and useful thing. The willingness to listen, learn and re-think things seems to be at the heart of what many people from minorities are asking from people in the majority.

"Well, bye...."              (Which film?)

And some registered users haven't selected it to appear in "my forums". I always totally forget about it, so actually like Aimee, I was also thinking the other day that it was odd that there had been no big argument thread about George Floyd's murder and the protest that have followed. Of course I hadn't looked in "down the pub" so had missed those discussions.

A useful link :  youtube.com/watch?v=bCgLa25fDHM&

Theres been a few interesting fundraising ideas pop up one of which is streaming these YouTube videos including all their ads to raise money for black lives matter through the use of Adsense revenue. This is a way to raise money without having money yourself! All that’s encouraged is to let the video play through in full with all the ads. In the description is more links to petitions to sign. 

Thanks for replying, and I see what you're getting at.

Personally I hope climbing walls and brands don't start posting about this sort of thing  or other social / political / moral issues with no direct relevance to them on social media. It just comes off as a cynical attempt to cash in on a news story to me, and I'd prefer to be able to moderate how much of that sort of content I consume. If I look at Rab's Facebook page or whatever then I'll be looking for details about a sale or new product, or possibly about what they're doing to source down ethically or ensure their 3rd world factories are treating workers well. I don't want to read about their social media director's opinion on whether Scotland should have another independence referendum or whatever happens to be the top news story that week. Before you know it we'll be choosing climbing walls based on quality of routes, price, and whether they support a two state solution to the Israel - Palestine situation.

I've had a look at the website link you posted and signed a couple of petitions, so thanks for the link and will be interested to follow the thread. 

Yes, I agree in general.  I do struggle a bit however using a US police murder to campaign in the UK.  The context is so vastly different things don't really map sensibly.

I think you got a lot of people's backs up by denouncing the 'silence'. Then when challenged you responded that you don't actually engage much with UKC, and it was what you'd been told. This has been followed by a number of “How very dare you!” Posts about dislikes.

That said I think it's been quite a good thread, theres been a lot of useful discussion. If you engaged with the forum a bit more you'll find there have been articles and discussions about BAME participation in climbing and other outdoor activities, Islamophobia, and more arguments than you shake a stick at over racism and xenophobia in the many, many brexit threads. These issues do get discussed, perhaps not with the frequency you'd prefer,  but that's the nature of forums not dedicated to a specific subject.

Some of the “All lives matter” responses show that some people probably don't get the reasoning behind the BLM movement, and this has hopefully been educational. Also, maybe some people who are sympathetic don't feel the need to be out on the streets berating a bemused PCSO about the actions of the Minneapolis Police Department. Again, sorry if that disappoints you.

I do see where your coming from as I see a lot of brands posting about this whilst they’re also exploiting people for cheap labour in their factories. It’s hard to navigate these sorts of things and I can appreciate that, because this topic is something I don’t fully understand myself in a lot of ways. The problem with this is that (in my opinion at least) it’s not a political discussion, because it’s just plain right and wrong! Black people shouldn’t be getting killed by the police, or anyone, because of the colour of their skin. Which leads me to believe that’s the reason it’s important for brands to show solidarity with it at least on their social media accounts, I hope that makes sense. I’m glad the link I shared was of some help thanks for taking the time to look at it!

On Instagram all the outdoor brands and sponsored climbers I follow have posted in support of BLM in some way. It's easy to be sceptical about it, but I suppose if silence can be seen as complicity, saying something is better than nothing. If nothing else it give us and others something to hold them too. 

I can appreciate that now, and can see why it might annoy people, I think it’s hard to get across on the internet what you really mean! As I was in no way meaning to imply that because people aren’t shouting about it or making loads of threads means they aren’t interested or are racist etc as that would be ridiculous. I think because to me in my head the post clearly read as wanting to spread helpful resources, I thought people were disliking it because of that! I feel like I’ve cleared that up now though to anyone else that reads the thread. 
 

Thanks for pointing these other points out as they are things I’ll be able to look up now. Perhaps this thread will help people consider all those points again who knows. And I agree that hopefully some of the ‘all lives matter’ people have been educated as to why that’s something not being said!

As mentioned on the UKC database. FA. Steve Bancroft (after Black Nick failed) 1976

Black Nick's Wall - Black Nix Wall.

Black Nick Colton, as distinct from Blond Nick (who's surname sadly escapes me now).

In the idiom of:

Saddy (Chris Addy). Am not sure if Chris failed on this. Unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Nosey Parker. A gibe at Al Parker.

Bob Hope. A gibe at Bob Whittaker.

While one may or may not appreciate Steve's somewhat acerbic sense of humour, was there any racism intended re Black Nix Wall? In my view, not an iota.

Any racism/sexism intended in the naming of Black Nick and Blond Nick? Can't imagine so.

I can remember one particularly offensive route name in Parrock Quarry (think it was a song name/lyric). I believe it's been edited out now.

Mick

Thanks for the reply Aimee. As I said, it's turned into a good thread after a bit of a shaky start!

I gave you a down vote for a number of reasons but I note that you're 21 and on refection I may well have given you a thumbs up 40 years ago when I was your age. In future if you care about something it's best not to adopt a preachy tone.

Regarding what we can do to change things for the better in the US, no amount of petitioning and demonstrating will change a racist, quite the reverse. Further the causes of the perpetuation of racism in much of the US and against many ethnic groups is complex and will take a profound change in their society which many will resist.

With all that has been said I think Barack Obama has talked the most sense. It will only change if Americans vote for change and they have that opportunity in November. I am hopeful that they will do so.

vimeo.com/133506632

this is a good watch. It explains a lot of the systemic racism and privilege some groups get.

Yeah I think timing is an issue here.

1. General annoyance at the populist rich leaders who have traded on xenophobia.

2. The lockdowns.

but in the US there’s certainly just ‘enough is enough’ view after watching Ahmaud get lynched. We’ve had constant 2-7 day protests after god knows how many police beatings and deaths and nothing is changing.

My wife was telling me about a black female MD who didn’t make the news. She was out driving found a vehicular crash, stopped to try to give aid, the police arrived, told her to step away. She said she was an MD. The slammed her to the floor, handcuffed her and threw her in the cruiser. Then they dealt with the scene. She died of a seizure in the cruiser.

we are only seeing the very tip of the iceberg of racism and the police here.

People dislike your comment because it is patronising, accusatory and virtue signalling.  

I was referring to why people were disliking your comment explaining why saying all lives matter is a stupid thing to respond to black lives matter, but ok. Thanks.

The story as told to me was that Nick Colton had black hair while Nick Donnelly(?) had blonde hair hence black Nick and blonde Nick to differentiate between the two Nicks.

I don’t know if it’s true but it sounds fair enough to me.

Fair enough.  I thought it was pretty obvious that all lives matter was offensive but perhaps I was wrong. 

As a middle aged white British male, I can't say I'm keen on the phrase 'Black lives matter', I prefer 'all lives matter'. I don't care if it's been appropriated by the right wing. I understand the reason for the statement and deplore racism in all it's forms. However I don't like that it excludes others including other persecuted groups...

Palestinian lives matter?

Rohingyan lives matter?

etc etc etc

They dislike that because I was rude about it.  Fair enough.  My Pyrex probably didn't mean to be offensive and I could have explained it more politely.  

There was a post last week or the week before about lockdown making people grumpy and snappy. 

I hold my hands up.  I know we are on the same side.  I apologise to you and My Pyrex for being such a grump.  

As a white man now is your time to recognise it's not your choice, its time to listen.   You don't get to choose someone else's slogan and if you want to fight for Palestinians or Rohingyans crack on with that instead of criticising BLM.  

I've always taken it as for black people, it's a way of saying 'Our lives matter' (in the face of being killed), and for white people supporting the cause, it's a way of saying 'Their lives matter like our's do'. 

I'm trying to listen...but their message is being drowned out by all the looting.

I've always taken it to mean "Black lives matter too, by the way". It is a reaction to an attitude of too many in the US that black lives are less precious than other lives and is a reminder that actually, they are just as precious.

As has been the case for a couple of centuries in the States, black people are only asking to be be treated equally. They're not asking to be regarded as special.

True but it is tactically a poor choice of slogan, as evidenced by all the deliberate misrepresentation - it's too easy for the malicious to make it sound like "BLM...but yours doesn't"

http://www.courthousenews.com/minnesota-officials-link-arrested-looters-to-...

That's the case. One was very black and the other very blonde.

Nick Donnelly, yes, sadly died young, I believe.

The naming would have been innocent.

Mick

What I saw first is police brutality. It frustrates me that when people use that to accuse organisations are institutionally racist particularly when the perpetrators have been arrested and charged. No doubt racism is still an issue but that is very different to organisations persecuting specific sections of the population.

The sad fact is that in America 53% of homicide victims are black despite being a much smaller percentage of the population, 93% of them are killed by other black people. Now if one demographic is disproportionately involved in violent crime then they are more likely to be victims of police brutality. It could have been racially motivated but I'm sure theres a lot of good police out there that take offense to that being the accusation with very little evidence. 

I do believe that race is often used as an over simplification of complex socio-economic reasons. An example of this is people of asian heritage are much more likely to be drs or lawyers and less likely to be convicted of a crime than those from a black background. So either institutions are selectively racist or theres other factors as well which people seem to not want to talk about. 

Black lives matter. However nothing will improve until we have a brutally honest debate about all factors causing these issues and that's not what people want. 

You only have to look at social media to see posts and posts of people saying that anyone expressing alternative views is "part of the problem". Or that people aren't entitled to comment on issues affecting society because we "cant understand"

"I do believe that race is often used as an over simplification of complex socio-economic reasons. "

Certainly but that's also part of the racism if you watch the video I linked  vimeo.com/133506632. Race: The Power of an Illusion

It's hard to separate the two because they are heavily connected.

Once you have read up on the history, as I only did after your strongly worded post  to MP, then it becomes apparent that it has had racist overtones for a lot longer than I for one had realised. But you can't expect everyone to keep up with every campaign/fashion/trend that does the circuits, irrespective of their age. Maybe your dad is a bit more au fait with stuff than some of the rest of us and you have set the bar according to his example

There's a lot of stuff / info/ideas floating round these days and maybe we all have different strengths and gaps in our knowledge according to our own interests and social circles. As I may have said before during a UKC discussion on the word "woke", once I had come across the word I asked the most woke person I know ( musician, artist, anti-fracking campaigner, social worker, wears a keffiyeh two days out of three) about the word and he'd never heard of it.

Cheers Mick. In that case 'Black Nick' is a good pal but I never realised the link before... even more peculiar than I expected that someone has accused it of being racist. However I was referring to the two routes Sean initially posted as racist names.. ie  Black Bastard (where I don't know any history) and WOGs ( where I read or heard the discussion of the history once but have forgotten). Any help on those would be good.

Edit... Just found James Mann's explanation: wall overhang groove and slab... which if true a name change to WOGaS solves the issue.  Plus there are two routes with the other name 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/llanymynech_quarry-1070/black_bast.... FA. Doug Kerr .......and

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/monastir_sink-1190/black_bastard-1.... FA. R Cole

You can then decide if you're going to do something to fix it, or you're going to hope it goes away by itself,  That decision is the brutally honest debate that needs to take place.

In the US, on a lot of stats, Asians come out on top (which is the US means mostly East Asians, Chinese, Japanese, etc, they have fewer from the sub-continent). 

No, that is not what "white privilege" is claimed to be.  "White privilege" is the claim that ALL whites have certain privileges that ALL non-whites don't have. 

In socio-economic terms, there are huge overlaps between the ethnic groups (even if the means are different), such  that lots of whites would have lower familial incomes than lots of blacks.

Culture is also hugely important, and the different cultures of different ethnic groups can have a big affect on outcomes.

The problem is you dilute your message to the point of worthlessness.

”Save the whales!” - I can see this getting some traction and leading to meaningful actions.

“Save all animals!” - A worthy sentiment but it’s a very much bigger issue with very different solutions, not to mention not all animals might need to be saved.

If I was a whale I know which campaign I’d put my energy into.

And now I think about it I’m pretty annoyed about these Save the Whale people. What about the tigers and the rhinoceroses and the pangolins? Don’t they care about them? I mean I know I’m doing bugger all for any of them but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t feel free to pass judgement!

No it doesn't. It neither says nor implies anything either way about others, it's straightforwardly about black lives. It should be as unnecessary as it is simple.

jk

The good police don't kneel on people's necks.  It was obvious that the outcome would be death and I'm pleased that charges have been brought.  But without all the protests that might not have been the outcome.  

It is a complex and interconnected issue.  

How does breaking into Macey's and running off with a 70" plasma going to fix this?

White working last school boys are the lowest achievers, by the way 

The murder was caught on camera, there was no need to smash-up downtown New York to secure a charge...the riots are irrelevant to the availability of sufficient evidence to put the perpetrators (one white, one mixed race, one asian) in the dock.

It’s possible to have white privilege and still end up poor and disenfranchised.

There’s enough poor white people in the UK and USA to prove that.

It’s such a complex issue not helped by either entirely blaming or denying racism.

I think low income black boys do slightly worse than low income white boys.  Not much in it.  Probably down to socio economic issues and lack of aspirations rather than race in my opinion.  

As for the looting, it's one of those things that happen when control is lost because the people who are supposed to be in charge can't be trusted.  Its not the main reason for the protests or the most important thing happening.  But it's a great excuse to carry on ignoring those who might not have been rioting in the first place if peaceful protest worked.  

There is the additional problem though that much as it’s a worthy principle Justice really isn’t blind and there have been countless other cases where in similar circumstances, despite being overwhelming evidence against them the perpetrators of such acts have been found innocent.

You can surely see why people get angry?

Don’t worry, our system of justice will right this wrong! - Will it? It didn’t the last time, or the time before or the time before, repeat until you feel sick...

It’s the most important thing happening if all your local shops are burned or boarded and your electric is out in 40 degree heat.

Yes I think you are right. After further consideration I have decided I was wrong.

Al

Until this time yesterday (the ninth day of protest), Chauvin has been charged only with third degree murder and the other three had had no charges brought at all.

I suspect that a list of black men killed by white police or security services in the US who went on to face no charges or to be found not guilty would be very long indeed. 

Steady on Al!

You’ll have your UKC membership revoked if you start seeing someone else’s point of view.

What a dangerous precedent you’re setting!

This is UKC after all!  

I agree. Focus should be switched to the people who are using the protests as an excuse to riot.

The serious message that the genuine protestors are trying to deliver has been undermined and drowned-out by the anarchists and looters.

Perhaps if started beating-up the anarchic element of the BLM movment, rather than the cops, they'd make some progress?

True. Though the lists for black men killed by black police, and white men killed by police would also be as long. 

The nature and scope of the charge is a matter for investigators and prosecutors, not looters.

Smashing up Maceys won't add any more, or less, weight to the evidence against these men.

Investigations take time. As does legal debate. You seem to be suggesting that the other two, the case against whom is far less clear-cut, should have been charged as soon as possible to appease the mob.

Can you back up that with any actual data?

So you think watching someone kill isn’t clear cut?

I would like to think that I always see the other persons point of view which is easy to do face to face but very difficult on a forum.  It's also far to easy to feel that you are under attack, get all defensive and start taking a position that you do not really hold which leads to more attacks and so on and so on. I am vulnerable to doing that. It becomes a vicious circle and you can easily come across as unpleasant, bigoted etc. etc. Add to this the fact that some members do not seem to be able to read English and misinterpret and misrepresent what you have actually said and there is no wonder that things get heated.

Al

That's not what I wrote.

Try again.

All white privilege is not having most other people (having the potential to be) making negative assumptions because of one's race, due to being from the majority race. The inverse can happen in say, Taiwan, where some white people were racially abused at a bus stop which made some people call for a national conversation about race (racism). It isn't anything to do with being born with a silver spoon, or status and what have you.

Not really clear cut, in general.. This case in particular may be clear to people but there's lots of bodycam /police footage of officer involved violence  in the US in which it's far from obvious whether the lethal force was justified or not. At one end of the scale you have this terrible example, at the other an officer simply asking to see a driving licence having shots fired at him and retaliating. And in between a range of situations and justifications.

Although I agree with the socio economic advantage aspect to call it specifically white is possibly misleading.

If you take two people who live in the same area and go to the same school but just happen to be a different colour I suspect you will find very similar outcomes. I think you'll find a lot of white people in areas of the country with high unemployment that strongly disagree that they have any privilege.

Is there massive problems of inequality? yes. Is it all to do with race? Certainly not.

Theres also the cultural issue. As someone growing up in a multicultural area a lot of my asian friends have gone into well paid jobs. We used to joke because it was drilled into them at home that they needed to be successful and my climbing friends were always asked why they wasted time with it rather than studying.

On the flip side, most of my black friends parents took very little interest in there school life and it never seemed a big deal if they got detention. From what I've seen that was a much bigger limiting factor than racism was.

See the problem with suggesting society is racist is it's actually insulting to all the people that aren't racist and unlikely to win you friends. We've all been treated unfairly for one reason or another but there are people that there first conclusion is it's because of race.

You bring a welcome relief to this forum by not always adding to what is often referred to as an echo chamber.

It’s not unusual to find oneself seemingly doing battle with numerous opponents at the same time.

UKC would be a poorer place without you

Killed, yes.  Killed and the murderer never charged or exonerated? I suspect less lengthy. 

Thank you for those kind words. I have had my moments on UKC when I feel there has been a concerted attack on my views and usually as a result of being misquoted and/or misrepresented. Some times, but not often I would suggest, I may not have expressed myself very well but when the wolf pack attacks it's unrelenting and very unpleasant.  One person misquotes you and others then attack you for the misquote.

Al

Yes, look at the stats compiled by people like Wilfred Reilly (e.g. https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/04/why-black-lives-matter-has-been-ba... ).

First, US cops are way too aggressive and kill way too many people (at least by European standards).

But, blacks are not more likely to be killed per interaction with the police (that is, they are more likely to be killed than then fraction of the population, but then the crime rate is also higher among blacks, so they are involved in interactions with the police more, and once you account for that they are not more likely to be killed).

Also, blacks are not more likely to be killed in an interaction with a white cop than in an interaction with a black cop. 

It's also worth pointing out that the number of blacks killed by police is tiny, tiny compared to the number of blacks killed by other blacks generally (though yes, the police should indeed by held to much higher standards).   Also, the number of black-on-white crimes is vastly greater than the number of white-on-black crimes (as would be expected given the disparity in economic status).

Not really, the US prosecutors and courts have a habit of letting the police off, regardless of who it is they kill.   The courts invented the doctrine of "qualified immunity", which gets most cops off. 

I’ve been in many similar situations on this forum and it’s very unpleasant.

Maybe it’s just the nature of Internet forums especially when people feel strongly about a topic.

The problem is exacerbated when you can be the only person holding a particular view.

Seems ironic that we’re having this discussion about battling against the majority on a thread about racism.

I sometimes relish the debate when it's civil but when people go straight into "you don't agree with me therefore you are right wing, facist, bigoted, racist etc. etc. " it's probably worth dropping out as it is difficult to reason with people like that.

Al

Also this:

https://ideasanddata.wordpress.com/2019/08/10/on-racial-bias-in-police-shoo...

"Thus, black people are underrepresented among those killed by police relative to their representation among those who commit violent crimes, who commit murder, and who kill police officers."

"A total lack of anti-black bias is also implied by research which compares the behavior of black and white police officers. For instance, Meinfeld et al. (2018) finds that black people account for 33% of those killed by non-white police officers compared to only 28% of those killed by white police officers."

Unfortunately it’s all too easy to become embroiled in a debate that’s turning nasty and going nowhere.

Logic says that one should quit but it’s not always that easy!  

I’m a bit late on this one but the brutal murder of George Floyd was originally classed as a homocide. Without these protests it would not have been changed to second degree murder. You cannot sit there and say that it’s making no change. Yes, it’s awful that places are getting looted, but I think it’s much MUCH worse that black people are being murdered and the people doing it in many cases are getting away with it.

Woah, your first link is an article on breitbart light, and now your 'data' is from a website where the main page first headlines are "American Racism and the Anti-White Left" and "Jewish Influence on American Politics", with the tasty intro of:

In this post, I will argue that Jewish people have become highly represented among circles of American elites, that this has shifted the political ideology of American elites towards leftism and Zionism, and that the leftist and Zionist ideology of Jewish elites is partially explained by ethnocentrism on the part of Jews.

Damn, i'm sure whatever data is in there will be highly reliable...

You really are going down the alt-right rabbit hole now

Edit: Not to be missed as well the series of 'articles' where he argues that whites are more intelligent than blacks purely as a matter of race

Wilfred Reilly is a respected academic, and I note that you have no rebuttal of the actual data, you only attack its source. 

(One can also ask why the mainstream media does not do more to collect such data.)

I had a similar experience on a discussion about climate change.  I mentioned that whenever I read something I would make an effort to read opposite views for some kind of balance. When I gave that opposite view and it's source, a climatologist, it was dismissed with a casual "You can't believe anything he says he's a well known climate change denier".  DUH!

It's difficult to debate with idiots like that.

Al

Or one could ask why alt-right internet posters can’t use google but have obscure anti Jewish websites at their fingertips

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings...

Thanks for the "not to be missed"  tip.

I'll admit to only reading a few summaries and would be interested to know what you have actually read yourself.

My take on his writing is that he sees a difference between the performance of Caribbean and African Blacks in the US educational system compared to African American Blacks. I'm not sure which of these two groups he is claiming to be genetically less intelligent than whites, if either.

So let's examine that article:

First sentence: "Young black men were nine times more likely than other Americans to be killed by police officers in 2015, according to the findings of a Guardian study ..."

Well yeah. *Men* are much more likely to be killed than women.  That's mostly because men are much more likely to be involved in crime and the sort of thing that leads to interactions with police.

And yeah, *young* people are much more likely to be killed than older people.  That's mostly because young people are much more likely to be involved in crime and the sort of thing that leads to interactions with police.

So most of that factor 9 comes from the "young" and the "men".  Note that the article makes no mention of these things.  It's a slippery wording that tries to give the impression that it is all about race.

So, taking the "young" and the "male" into account, we have: "Overall in 2015, black people were killed at twice the rate of white, Hispanic and native Americans."

But then they're also involved in roughly twice the rate of crime, particularly the sort of violent, inner-city, drug-gang crime that often leads to altercations with the police.  And once you've accounted for all of this, then they are not more likely to be killed, or at least any such effect is then much smaller. 

a) You asked why the media didn’t collect stats. I showed you they do.

b) If you really want to pick one number from a headline, ignore all the other data, and write 300 words about why think it is wrong, fine. One might ask, however, why you don’t do that with you link too.

It's not wrong, it's in line with the link I gave and with other sources (e.g. https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/data-show-deaths-from-polic... ), namely:

1) Blacks are killed by police (in the US) at about twice the rate of Americans in general.

2) Blacks are also involved in serious, violent crime at about twice the rate of Americans in general.

3) On a per-interaction-with-police basis, the rate at which blacks are killed is roughly the same as that at which whites are killed.

4) It is not the case that blacks are killed disproportionately by white (as opposed to black) cops.  Indeed, black cops kill blacks at a slightly higher rate than white cops (mostly because, in inner-city areas, a higher fraction of cops are black).

Agreed. Overall, I think that US cops are way too aggressive, trigger happy and liable to kill people unnecessarily.    

But that's a different issue from: in a given interaction with police, is a person more likely to die if they are black than if they are white?  The statistics say that, if there is such a bias, then it's not that strong overall. 

That sort of cynicism, in what is actually a serious matter, is uncalled for. 

Watch the video of the death of Daniel Shaver (as horrific as the video of the death of Floyd) if you think that whites are immune to being killed by US cops. 

I understand the desire to make it appear that smashing-up down-town New York, looting department stores, shooting half-a-dozen-or-so cops and reversing the efforts to combat Corona-Virus (probably with fatal consequences, particularly within the BAME community) was actually worthwhile and in some way influenced the nature of the investigation against the perpetrators,. However, it wasn't and it didn't.

The only thing that influenced the type of offence for which the suspect have been charged is the evidence. 

The workings of the legal process in the USA is not that dissimilar to our system.

The initial arrest for homicide is an 'umbrella' for all types of suspected unlawful killings. In the UK, it is referred to as a 'holding charge'. 

A holding charge activates the legal powers required to conduct an investigation; to arrest suspects, detain them, interview them, take forensic samples from them, seize and examine their clothing and weaponry, obtain CCTV , obtain the corpse, conduct an autopsy etc etc.

This evidence is then passed to the lawyers - the the people who will prosecute the accused (our equivalent is the CPS).

They assess the evidence and decide what type of charge is most appropriate. When agreement is met. The holding charge is removed, and replaced with the actual charge under which the suspect will be tried - in this case 3rd degree murder (meaning that suspect didn't actually mean to kill the victim).

The process of gathering and analysing the evidence, particularly the autopsy, takes time. Despite the initial shocking video footage, far more evidence is required before the legal requirements are satisfied. 

The decision to amend the charge to 3rd degree murder was, therefore, based on the gradual unveiling of the facts; NOT the crowd of hooligans running down the street with newly acquired plasma TV's.

Incidentally, I'm pretty confident that the USA have similar trial fairness rules to those enshrined in our human rights act. If they do, I'd be confident that one of the defences that will be advanced by Derek Chavin will be that, with such a clamour for his blood, he will be unable to receive a fair trial. Who knows, this may even be enough to get the case thrown out.

Yet another unfortunate consequence of the approach taken by Black Lives Matter.

Here's the Daniel Shaver video:

youtube.com/watch?v=VBUUx0jUKxc&

(The cop was prosecuted, verdict: not guilty.)

Doug Kerr got some stick for that name in On The Edge, in the '90s, from an Asian lady. Not a name many of us would choose (I hope). Have never met Doug Kerr. Am struggling to think of people whom I've met in the climbing world who are racist. Would be most surprised if Doug Kerr is.

Oddly enough, I knew Ricky Cole well. Safe to say it wasn't a marriage made in heaven!  Ricky was a kind of rugby player/squaddie type. He was probably pretty sexist in an unthinking kind of way. Was he racist? Not in my opinion. The name probably referred to a feature of the route (as the other probably does). However Ricky would have delighted in being politically incorrect, as he would see it. Would he have seen the bigger picture. Maybe not. Would he have been appalled by the recent murder? Absolutely. Was he a bad guy? Not in my opinion. Still not the best choice of names.

While we're at it, there's Nig Nog, in the Mournes, brilliant slab climbing, soled onsight it will feel way harder than the given grade. As I heard it, Mournes pioneer Phil Gribbon (half French) was so sunburnt he looked 'a bit foreign' (well he was a bit foreign). Racist? Yes, in an unthinking 1950s kind of way. Was Gribbon actively racist? Doubt it. Were his Mournes contemporaries? Not in my opinion. They were the first people in my life to show tolerance to me.

We can look back at the anomalies of history and think we'd do things differently now. I grew up with racism every day of my life when I was a kid. I know how nasty and pernicious it can be. For me, the intention has always been paramount. I've known the most 'polite' of people who could cut you to the bone (and they did). The anomalies of history, where probably no harm was meant? Personally I'd let them go. But yes, we can - and should - do much better now.

Mick

Eh? Or we can look just above that first sentence at the bold subheading:

”Final total of people killed by US police officers in 2015 shows rate of death for young black men was five times higher than white men of the same age”

How can you claim that they give no consideration to age or gender, when the article starts with bold text giving a statistic controlled for age and gender?

One might be inclined to accuse you of slippery wording for claiming they’ve ignored factors that are addressed, in bold text, at the top of the page. 

Utterly sickening footage, a bit confusing in that the one barking out the inconsistent commands doesn't seem to be the one who fired the lethal shots.

I believe it has now been changed to 2nd degree murder.  

Also the others have been charged now as accomplices.  

That's good news - I doubt the sentencing power available for 3rd degree murder would be appropriate, given the nature of the offence.

The punishment really does need to fit the crime.

I'd be interested to know the evidence against the co-accused. Presumably inactivity amounts to complicity? 

Unlikely.

plenty of officers get put away after video is made public. I’m not sure what the riots changed. We all saw the videos.

if there wasnt the outcry over Ahmaud death his killers wouldn’t have faced justice. 
 

But again you’ve linked in BLM protests and those who went purely to cause trouble. 

What I meant is that they give no explanation of why their sentence: "Young black men were nine times more likely than other Americans to be killed by police officers ..." is a pretty misleading thing to say (given that nowhere do they compare men to women or young to old).

On this:

I've not worked out how it is consistent with the statement they also make that: "Overall in 2015, black people were killed at twice the rate of white, Hispanic and native Americans."

“3) On a per-interaction-with-police basis, the rate at which blacks are killed is roughly the same as that at which whites are killed.”

But black people are much more likely to have those interactions on the basis of being black.

Missouri: 91% more likely. https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/11/us/missouri-traffic-stops-black-drivers-trnd...

California. 2.5 times more per capita. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/report-california-cops-more-likely-to-stop-blac...

Where do Hispanics fit into these killings?

Surely if the police are racist they’ll be killing Hispanics as well but I don’t think that the figures show this.

Or are the police selectively racist?

Well, that's my point - the evidence led to the charge. Not the riots. As you say, we all saw the video.

I'm not sure there is any difference between BLM protestors, and those who want to cause trouble.

I haven't heard anything in the press about a peaceful faction within the movement trying to quell the rioters...I have seen plenty of people with BLM banners and t-shirts attacking the police, breaking into shops, burning cars and building and, most recently, spraying Black Lives Matter on war memorials, though.

Are you saying that these are imposters, rather than genuine members of BLM?

If so, why aren't the real members speaking up?

Could it be because BLM are little more than a bunch of low-rent yobs?

Yes, blacks are more likely to have interactions with police.  They're also more likely to live in inner-city areas, where police are likely to concentrate resources, and they're also more likely to be involved in crime.

We've been around and around with Coel on this one any number of times before. He seems to be hold that crime rates are some natural phenomenon, so it's natural that black men have more interactions with police because the commit more crimes.

Did you see that video of the older white woman in I think Oklahoma yelling at the policeman that she wasn't going to accept a ticket because she didn't agree that what he had stopped her for was important? IIRC she actually tried to drive off on him. They eventually got her out of the car and arrested her - which is good - but she obviously didn't think there was any possibility of the cop just shooting her. It didn't even seem to figure in her world of possibilities.

You always misrepresent me, don't you Toby? Bet you can't quote me saying that, can you?

Well crime is "natural" I guess, in the sense that all human societies have had crime, yes, but the higher crime rates of black Americans are very obviously to a large extent a matter of relative economic status and of cultural attitudes.   Isn't that obvious to you?  Do you really need instruction on such points?

I suggest you read some news.

https://www.foxla.com/video/690357

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8375121/Protesters-LA-NY-Washingto...

at one protest a uhaul van turned up to load from shops.

again though, it’s easy for us with such privileges to think the protests aren’t necessary. It’s the definition of white privilege. They face a totally different world.

Yeah, there’s also videos of black guys almost going to jail for merely jay walking.

youtube.com/watch?v=FBX7yOYNEaU&

its just a different world.

Wasn't the last time we had this lengthy discussion when you said the imprisonment rates were predominantly genetic?

Is that guy who wrote the rag article or the owner of the blog? Or both??

I have little time at the moment to waddle through the rumblings of a political extremist with delusional views bordering on paranoia, but rest assured i got it bookmarked for when in need of entertainment, though it may be a while as i still have a few Icke's links to watch and a dozen or so left of Paul Mitchel's.

Haha. Come on, it does it all by itself. Did you shift through the other 'articles' in there? It's not hard to find the reliability of a 'source' without delving into it too much. In fact there's a very simple Turing test. If you spot the "The Left" within the first few seconds in the site it is then guaranteed to be 100% bullshit all over the board.

 You can't link to that blog and expect people to take the content seriously. Almost as bad as linking to a climate change denier for evidence of something or other relating to climate and expecting not to be taken for an idiot.

It's how I view some of the American police from having seem certain footage of them, my heart absolutely goes out to anybody who suffers at their hands or dies. Having recently found peace again after losing my own, it really struck me that Floyd called out for his dead mother, for about the next hour and a half I kept thinking about his distress to have done that.

Is that the guy with mental health problems who was pretty much beaten to death? I don't want to see that again, it would rather haunt me. 

Edit:

By the above, I take that to mean that there is a difference, which is something to address - even if one might think a bigger difference is more serious.  

Fair enough....there have been afew occasions when some of the protestors have turned on the looters.

But hundreds of occasions when they've either turned a blind eye, or joined in. Theres no need to evidence this with a link; you can reference any news outlet, any paper or social media site if you require the detail.

I hope that the voices of the few can still  be heard over the clamour for Nike trainers and flat screen TV's. 

But, I doubt it.

Interestingly, I know Phil. Great guy, gave him some mackerel I caught off Elie rocks last summer.  Not a clue what he was like then, but I get zero sense of racism now.  I will ask him why he named it, which will hopefully lead to some interesting discussions on attitudes back then. 

Nope, it wasn't.

Imprisonment rates are *obviously* mostly cultural.

You ought to watch the video - the only mental health issues seem to lie with the cop barking out life threatening commands. 

Wow - small world!  A nice man, very thoughtful. Haven't seen him since Christmas 1969/70 at the Bloat House. Ask him about that - he'll have cherished memories of it, as do I.

Mick

You can dismiss him if you want to.  Sadly it's a typical reaction.

Data doesn't fit with your preconceived ideas? No problem, stick fingers in ears, attack the source, and bandy around terms like "alt right". Sorted. Belief in preconceived ideas sustained! 

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/criminals_should_feel_terror-70...

You start with:

"The biggest factor is what genes people are born with.  That's easily the biggest thing that affects how likely someone is to be sent to jail as an adult.  Yes, this then runs in families, but the primary reason for that is not bad parenting, it's that ne'er-do-well parents pass on ne'er-do-well genes to their kids."

Later you quote Offwidth's post:

"> Hardly evidence on your assertion that genes are the most likely reason for someone to end up in jail."

and reply:

"Combined with everything else (including much cited up-thread), it is. 

The biggest reasons for people ending up in jail are aggressive, violent and impulsive personalities, low IQ, low educational attainment, consequences of substance abuse, and similar things.  And all of those traits have high heritability and are under strong genetic influence!   In comparison, the contribution of factors such as "brought up in a household where criminality is the norm" (referred to as "shared environment" in the studies) is much lower."

Later in the same thread you said

"My original claim was that genes were the biggest factor in who gets sent to jail, and that "shared environment" (environment that siblings would share, such as being brought up in a home where crime as accepted and normal) was a smaller effect."

Now culture is the biggest factor in who gets sent to jail?

From the commentary of Roy Lilley:

"Chunks of commentary and insight from ethnic groups and organisations, telling us back people are poorer: poor housing, poor-pay, poor access to services; still subject to discrimination; front-line exposure in vital services, vulnerability... were cut out. All the reasons that are inflammatory of public policy, an embarrassment for politicians of all flavours, that shame us and make it difficult to look in the mirror... were dumped."

.......

The COVID youtube I follow (Dr John Campbell, just call him Cassandra for all the things that have gone wrong that he's called months in advance, but hey he's just some bloke from the internets) was absolutely frothing about this report yesterday, in his very well mannered, polite and respectful way.  The reason was almost the exact opposite of of that commentary - rather than investigating whether there was some biological reason for higher mortality in BAME communities (perhaps lower Vitamin D production in darker skinned people) that if found could lead to better treatment/prevention of the virus for BAME communities and SAVE LIVES, it's gone down a political route completely ignoring this, or any other biological, possibility.  From 11:40 in this video here  youtube.com/watch?v=2CWsJTTHXBA&.

He's also aghast that lots of people WILL DIE as a result of COVID transmission at these rallies, and the people who are most likely to die?  The BAME mums and dads of the youngsters at the rallies.  I'm not sure I'm with him here,  I think as a youngster of any ethnicity I would have a hard time staying away but I'd just make sure I'd self-isolate afterwards.  Very very difficult decisions for people to make, more gifts from COVID.

You’re right and was one of them.  I might very easily have replied with exactly those words.  I don’t exactly live in a cave, but I also don’t research far right politics so I have no problem believing that mypyrex used it as a truism without any subtext.

Could it be that you just don't know enough about what's going on to make an informed comment?

Have a read of all of this thread.  https://mobile.twitter.com/clairewillett/status/1266894029498675200. 

T.

 You jest! How can people dismiss this guy? It is common knowledge that the government is run by a Jewish Zionists Cabal plotting with The Left and the Illuminati under the orders of the extraterrestrial shapeshifting lizards to mind control the human race with the use of 5G and robot mosquitoes to ultimately implement the New World Order. And... The left again.

 Au contraire. I have no preconceptions which is the reason i clicked the link, expecting to see what the reality is as based on data. I have some minimum standards though, like the data compiler not being so biased and deranged in his views before even looking at the data so as to make whatever he writes not worth the paper it's written on.

  Maybe the data is all kosher, maybe not, but if this guy claims in his blog that the Sun raises in the East and sets in the West i'd still be buying a compass and go check for myself, an action which by itself would render the blog post and his conclusions both meaningless and irrelevant. Skipping the reading his waffle altogether is just a matter of time saving efficiency really

How many of the protests have you attended or know people who attended? Or do you live in a city with these protests?

Obviously when we talk about the UK my view is knocked because I no longer live there.. no I get told how it is in the country I live in.

You are speaking from a position of ignorance, thinking the worst of a group of people. This is why we are here. This is why these protests are necessary. Nothing was changing.

Again though, it's up to them. It's their freedom to make these decisions. I'm not a fan of protest marches in general, but I think something has to change, voting rights are being attacked, nothing is changing. I'll attend the ones locally. I'll be donating to the movement.

I can only talk about the protests in the US and in my own state but they have mainly been pretty safe, socially distanced with masks. 

It's also not just police violence against George Floyd or Police violence in general, it's the discrepancies in maternal survival rates, lifespans, incarceration rates, just so much of our society is still institutionally racist. Even medicine and pain relief, treatment in the emergency room, schooling. Almost every aspect of our society we don't have equity. It's more than just treating people as equals it's actually getting it to a situation where we have equity.

Coel can say well Blacks live in inner city neighborhoods, but that's also part of our racist history. We really can't keep ignoring this like we have been.

I seriously despair at some of the responses I knew I'd see in this thread. I don't know if people really don't understand, are being willfully ignorant, deliberately incendiary, or don't want to accept that they have an advantage in life so try to turn the issue on its head.

When people talk about white privilege, it doesn't mean your life is easy, it means the system is not against you due to the colour of your skin, which it is for so many people. I went to a Jewish secondary school in London and far right skinheads knew the uniform. I was an 11 year old kid and I experienced menacing behavior and racial slurs from grown men, and attacked by groups of their kids. It was really scary at times, but at least I didn't have to fear this behavior from the police.

Now imagine not being able to take that uniform off, and these incidents occur throughout your life, people constantly suspect you of criminal activity, and you have to be scared you will be murdered by police because of it. Not having to live with that is white privilege. 

The other thing I keep seeing is people saying "All lives matter", like they're some kind of genius who believes in absolute equality. Again, completely missing the point, it means they get to ignore the fact that in society people aren't treated equally, so being "colour blind" does more harm than good. It's like asking the fire department why they are only spraying water on the fire in the house down the street but not your house, even though your house is not currently on fire.  White people don't suffer the day to day dangers that black people do just for being black (in America at least) so they don't need the movement, and elevating the lives of black people will elevate the lives of everyone in society.

For what it's worth I live in the US now, the protests in my town were peaceful, and by all accounts the vast majority of protesting in the state has been peaceful too. Yet people still complained that the protests blocked traffic because they shouldn't have to sit in their car for 30 minutes in order for people to fight for justice. There is also evidence that much of the rioting is being instigated by the far right and the police. 

Exactly.

Hear hear! 

Well, there's also two on this crag.  Not in the UK but on British soil in an overseas territory - probably makes it worse if anything.  https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/happy_valley_area-16721

You haven't seen or heard any peaceful protests from blm? 

Attacking police? And what of police attacking them? And what of the initial murder of blacks by police? Don't you see why many would retaliate? It's pretty obvious isn't it so why don't you see that? 

Low-rent? What does that term mean? And you are doing a fine job of making yourself sound like a unintelligent yob? 

In the UK?

Don't think we can afford to be complacent that this couldn't/ doesn't happen here: 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50333081

https://www.theweek.co.uk/107105/taser-west-midlands-police-inquiry-taser

Just wanted to quote the Rev Al Sharpton's words I heard on R4 this morning. Powerful stuff:

"George Floyd's story has been the story of black folks. Because ever since 401 years ago, the reason we could never be who we wanted, and dreamed of being, is you kept your knee on our necks" 

You weren’t too upset to climb them though.

Does it count if you have to combine two route names to come up with one offensive name?

"Repected academics" don't use anonymous blogs to publish their work. 

Sadly? People dismissing overtly racist propaganda and conspiracy bollocks is not sad. There is a basic level of credibility needed before claims are worth considering seriously and this nonsense doesn't come close.

You had more credible data presented above and latched on to one number ignoring everything that doesn't fit your politics. Whose got their fingers in tbeir ears? 

Who's being complacent?

Quote a poster above: "And what of the initial murder of blacks by police?"

Quote you: "In the UK?"

Evidence from me that assault and alleged murder can be a feature of UK policing from me = murder charge over response to Dalian Atkinson and the allegations that a 'rogue' officer has been tasering and beating black men in Birmingham - only facing investigation because he got filmed by the public though, not reported by colleagues if I understand this correctly?

Wow! A dislike! Wonder what that was for??? (how does one pout on a forum?)

That's not really surprising, is it, given that police forces will reflect their local demographics. Black police officers are obviously going to disproportionately end up policing black people. A big part of the point people are making about American policing is that the problems are not all about the individual police officers involved in incidents. Some individual police officers will hold abhorrent racist views, sure, and that's a huge problem. But all police officers, regardless of their own race, work within a system that disproportionately harms black people.

What you just said is consistent with what I said. In other words it's a privilege held by ALL whites. (It makes many things easier, not easy, easier, for ALL whites, all other things being equal.)

That is different from economic advantage which would be held by some whites but not all. 

Wilfred Reilly doesn't use anonymous blogs to publish his work.  He puts his name on his work.

Wilfred Reilly's work is not "overtly racist propaganda and conspiracy bollocks".

Amazing.

Wrong. I didn't ignore the everything else. It's consistent with the Wilfred Reilly piece I linked to.  

Thus, the rate at which blacks are killed by police is roughly twice that for whites, but the rate at which blacks commit serious crimes is also roughly twice that for whites, therefore on a per-interaction basis the rates are roughly similar.

You.

It's not disproportionate when you factor in the higher crime rate.

For comparison, the US police kill vastly more young men than little old ladies, by a factor 30 or so. 

Does that mean that the US police are sexist and ageist?  Or is it as expected, given that young men commit vastly more of the behaviour that leads to an interaction with police than little old ladies?

You obviously have very strongly held views. If you are ever in Liverpool may I humbly suggest that you check out the Museum of Slavery on the top floor of the maritime museum and the display about border force in the basement and I think on the ground floor, the exhibition about the Chinese in Liverpool, it may show you a different perspective.

Its free and its a great place to be, and there are some amazing pubs near by.

...which is precisely the reason that no progress has been made.

If the response to police brutality is to attack the police (and pretty much everything else), rather than engage with the authorities, all you do is contribute towards the violence, whilst drowning-out the voices of the serious protesters; those who genuinely want change.

That's exactly what's happened here.

We started off with the brutal murder of a black man in the Miniapolis. The video footage was broadcast around the world...and the world was listening, ready and willing to make change.

We've ended up with a bloke wearing a freshly looted pair of trainers and a traffic cone on his head spray-painting 'Black Lives Matter' on The Cenotaph in London.

And the world has switched off. Worse, they've grown hostile towards the movment.

We had a chance. But the hooligan element has blown it.

As someone who seems to be looking for a solution to the seemingly endless stream of police murders and reports of brutality in the states, I'm disappointed that you find this acceptable. I don't.

Where? I can't see any author on your link. If its there it's well hidden. 

Sure. 

"I will argue that Jewish people have become highly represented among circles of American elites, that this has shifted the political ideology of American elites towards leftism and Zionism, and that the leftist and Zionist ideology of Jewish elites is" 

I appreciate your apparent desire to equate UK policing with US policing, but disagreeing with that does not make one "complacent". 

I am more than aware there are issues with racism and use of force within UK policing. Some of those concerns more justified than others. None of which appear to be on a US scale.

I don't think a continual narrative of suggesting that policing London is equivalent to riding around with a lynch mob in the deep south of America is helpful though. Not that you have gone that far, I accept. Just as no-one appears to be 'complacent' here 

Are you asserting that that was written by Wilfred Reilly?  No it was not. 

I'm just pointing out the statistics.  In such matters looking at the actual data is a good idea.

Different perspective to what?

I always assumed it was a Nick Colton route but, having checked,  it's one of Steve Bancroft's.  Maybe it was something Nick had tried earlier? 

Failing to look at a full evidence base is a serious error but arguably not as bad as censoring... where you have the expected shitty political angle but more seriously Public Health leadership compliance which, if true, is a major breach of professional ethics, with potential serious outcomes for BAME health staff being ignored. Such behaviour in normal times can merit dismissal and being struck off.

I'm afraid I dont share Dr Campbell's highlighted level of concerns about those outdoor rallys. Those I saw were a risk, not always being reasonably distanced, but much less so to that photographed elsewhere .... being outdoors real risks are lower than they might appear. There is some evidence outdoor events pre lockdown had some impact but it turned out much lower than expected, at least on US research... also behaviour was less modified back then... as a simple example in earlier BLM protests there would have been a good deal of hugging and other physical contact.

Hi Toby.  I realise that you don't understand the roles of genetics and environment because you come from a blank-slate perspective where genes are just for show, and that your whole sociological background ignores genetics.  So I'll try to explain it.  Everything I've said here and in those quotes is consistent.

The central point is that it matters crucially whether the question is about differences between individuals or differences between groups.    The answer can be very different in the two cases.

First, take school kids, all in the same school, all in the same town and culture (say Dublin), and all of the same race.   What determines which of those kids ends up in jail, versus which becomes a leading surgeon, will be largely genetic differences.  That's because, by the way we've constructed the question, we've controlled for culture.

Now ask a different question.  Take a group of Irish immigrant kids in the UK today, and compare to a group of Irish immigrant kids in the UK in Victorian times, and ask about the difference in incarceration rates between the two groups.

By asking about groups (not individuals), we've largely averaged out genetic factors. That's because, genetic dispersion between individuals within a group is always much higher than differences between group means.  That last point really is crucial. 

So, by constructing the above question, we've largely controlled for genetic factors.  The difference in incarceration rates between the two groups (Irish immigrants today vs Victorian times) will then be entirely cultural and socio-economic. 

So we get a completely different answer for asking about different incarceration rates for individuals within the same group (it's largely genetic) versus different incarceration rates between groups (it's largely cultural and socio-economic).

So, if we ask about two different blacks kids in the same school and culture in South Central LA, then the different genetics of the two kids will be highly relevant.  If, though, we ask about the group-mean of kids in that school versus group-mean of kids in a largely-white school in a wealthy area of New Brunswick or wherever, then the differences will be mostly socio-economic and cultural. 

I have not mentioned anything about scale, just that these issues also pertain to the UK. For what it’s worth I have a lot of respect for the police force and the job they do. However, your comment appeared dismissive and implied that murder/mistreatment of individuals by the police where race may have played a role  in the response was not an issue in the UK. 

Yes, just as Mick explained it above.

Hi Coel, I realise you don't fully understand the complex interplay between genetics, epigenetics and environment because you come from a hardline physical sciences perspective, where anything as difficult as psychological and sociological factors are just noise but I think you are overstating your case. 

No, we haven't.  Within that school, within a particular class even, the family environment of those kids may be vastly different.  One child may live in an abusive household, with parents with criminal records and zero regard for the importance of education.  Next door may be a similarly financially disadvantaged family where the parents are honest and hardworking and believe education is of paramount importance as a route out of poverty, both financial and intellectual.  The attitude of the children comes from the example they are set, and their success is largely dependent on the support they receive.

Now, maybe some of the difference in their parents' attitude is genetic, but in a highly complex way that I suspect will defy analysis for some time yet, but most will come from their upbringing and life experiences.    

No, that was from you.  You aren't making any sense at all.

I read somewhere that Nick had tried it unsuccessfully and Steve then did it.

I took the name to be a play on words black nick being unable became black nix - nix being slang for no, not or nothing.

I could, of course, be talking bollocks as usual!

Ah, yes, sorry Mick, I missed that (it's a long thread!)

I don't see how you get to this, are you sure?

Because that doesn't make the "best" television, there have been plenty of peaceful protests, and surprisingly few violent ones, until the police start firing chemical weapnons.

You sound like that what you want then to be.

Remember this isn't just about George Floyd.

Great, so I take it any other outdoor rally is now OK....or at they very least free from criticism. 

You're the one not making sense. You seem to be attributing things to Wilfred Reilly that are not his writing.

Just like you would in a lab?...

that's clearly utter shite.

i was going to write some examples but there really is no point as that position is so ridiculous.

Coel - Link to dodgy website purportedly showing US police are evenhanded

Thread -That's racist conspiracy nuts

Coel "Wilfred Reilly is a respected academic, and I note that you have no rebuttal of the actual data"

MG - That website is not worth serious attention  - why is Wildred Reilly anonymous

Coel - Why are saying that's Wilfred Reilly?

First, I didn't claim that the differences would be solely genetic, only largely genetic.   And that's what twin studies show, that -- for that question I posed -- the biggest single factor would be genetics.

Somewhat surprisingly, perhaps, twin studies show that the "shared environment" (= family environmental factors that siblings would share) is much less influential than people think, and is a smaller influence on individual outcomes than genetics.

So your above account is the "standard sociological assumption" about how things work, but is not actually supported by the evidence -- it only seems to be true because  people have failed to control for genetics.

Considering you wrote: "Imprisonment rates are *obviously* mostly cultural." yesterday and last August your wrote "My original claim was that genes were the biggest factor in who gets sent to jail" you'll just have to forgive my fluffy simple headedness. Perhaps you can see for us people not as clever as you how saying the opposite thing at different points could be confusing.

Do your Irish immigrant kids in the UK today include ones who are born to Lithuanian or Ghanaian parents. Surely that complicates things.  What about kids in the South Central school whose parents are Haitian or Nigerian? But far be it from me to suggest you have a simplistic view of social reality. 

I would be interested from your perspective what you mean by "culture" though?

Nope.  The first thing I did was link to this, explicitly naming Wilfred Reilly:

"Yes, look at the stats compiled by people like Wilfred Reilly (e.g. https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/04/why-black-lives-matter-has-been-ba...  )."

He isn't.  That article has his name on it.   The amount of evasion here is amazing. 

(The other website I linked to was on the specific point of getting shot by black cops vs white cops -- I note that no-one has refuted the actual stats, despite whining about the website.)

No, I wasn't making any assumptions, I was merely pointing out you had failed to control for environmental factors.

I'm actually (as I think you know) convinced that genetics are more influential than a lot of people are comfortable with but it doesn't help to overstate what you can control for, or to downplay the subtlety of the interplay between social conditioning and the genetic susceptibility to that conditioning.

Plus, I couldn't resist having a little fun with your unbelievably condescending style!

Well noted, and I apologise, I should have said you may have found it informative, and that I did, and it gave me a new perspective, and I apologise for any offence.

Yes. I have seen them on the news. I have seen them in person. I can't tell the difference 

So, you're accusing the press of racial  bias, now?

Our press are generally independent, left leaning and more than happy to take on the authorities. They're reporting the facts.

Crying 'fake news' every time the facts don't fit your preferred narrative is the sort of thing Donald Trump would do.

Perhaps it would help the cause if we just censored them?

I want them to deal with the issues. Not smash up Maceys.

I know. Isn't it a shame that these important issues have been sidelined.

I suppose that Coel's point is that Reilly, who is a genuine professor of political science was quoted on the website set up by the former-revolutionary communists after their magazine folded when they lost a libel case in which they denied the mass killing of Bosnians, not on the semi-anonymous blog going on about Zionist control of the US (and in another post I was looking at on "racial ancestry and IQ" uses a lot of American data from the 1920s to make its "point").

Well, "imprisonment rates" is clearly (especially in context) about group averages, while the "who gets sent to jail" remark was (clearly enough in context, on a very different thread) about differences between individuals.    See previous comment for why these are very different. 

I apologise for presuming that you would know about such stuff, especially given your (I think?) background in sociology and such. 

So despite your post yesterday at 19.06, you now think the website isn't  Wilfred.  Fine.  We are left with wondering why you are quoting anonymous, obviously racist,  conspiracy websites to support your case the US police are even-handed

Yeah well, that was a continuation of past interactions with TobyA, and directed specifically at him! 

Yes, clearly.

Yet again the man who bleats about attack dog treatment of himself makes a sweeping ad hominum accusation on a reputable UKC poster based on his social science background. You demonstrate hypocrisy of the highest order as most of those arguing with you on these forums about what you say (as opposed to who you are) are not denying your points often have some truth but that you cannot stop yourself stretching that to extremes, often using disreputable information sources, and wildly exaggerating the support for some of your views in the physical sciences. If what you said were true you could quote scientific meta data reviews not conspiracy therorists on alt right websites.  I'm one of your most regular 'sparring partners' and a cross disciplinary Physicist, Material Scientist and Engineer who has regular conversations with mainstream geneticists and know well how they fret on how to fairly unravel the immense complexity of interaction of genetic and cultural influences that you laughably oversimplify in your patronising explanatory post. Even with your favourite twin studies they, being experts in genetics, are very aware of the problematic assumptions in the process you blithely ignore.

Given the massive political and social issues around BLM in the historic context one would expect social and organizational bias towards very careful treatment of black men in custody, in public, on camera. Those moronic cops were filmed throughout the death of a handcuffed man with no evidence of the 'resisting arrest' they late claimed and this set off everything from race riots (bad) to peaceful protests (good) across the US.  Even if your data source is right on whites being as likely to be shot as blacks that's not the issue here. What happened on camera was a dreadful illegal death and aside from the awful criminality of that it's ludicrously high risk to the city and the US not having cops way better trained. 

I never once suggested that that other website was Wilfred Reilly. 

My 19:06 post said: "Wilfred Reilly is a respected academic, ...".  It was specifically a reply to the bit I quoted:

Given that my "first link" was to the spiked-online article by Wilfred Reilly, I presumed that the "breitbart light" jibe was aimed at Wilfred Reilly's spiked-online article.

Anyway, I'm sticking to the claim that Wilfred Reilly is a source we should take seriously. 

A substance-free whine from an anonymous troll.  And TobyA fully deserves my replies to him, given his general approach to me.

So cultural and not genetic?

I was referring specifically to the usa. 

My name is 'hidden in clear sight' on my profile page and has been all along. Your obsession with trying to claim otherwise is another example of dishonesty in what you say..

Well you have gone whining to the mods to get posts deleted, just because they put your name against some anti-scientific remarks of yours. 

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Aren't you based in Manchester?

No I'm accusing them of picking the most drematic stories.

But where are our press getting the stories and picture from?

Perhaps it would help if you broadened you news outlets, try RT, CNN, or some of the others.

I think most people want that, but that doesn't lessen what happened, or how long it's been going on. And after years and years of repeat killing, do you not think people might be a bit more nary than simple protesting, which 1) has been attacked anyway i.e. Trump getting to church for his photo, was a peaceful protest, 2) hasn't changed anything in the past (how long do you keep being told, things will change and simply accepting it?

But your post is adding to that focusing on the bad side of it, blaming ALL BLM people for riots and looting. If you statement above is genuine, then look at what you're saying and how you're making sweeping statements about people you don't know.

are you Timothy Taylor?

That's what you say but it's just an assumption... the mods don't react to 'whining' they react to breaking site rules and on the large majority of occasions you've accused me of this I did nothing and when I have contacted the mods my concerns were mainly that you should be encouraged to calm down (as per the site rules). The really sad thing is I think you often make good points and some that are really important being counter-intuitive. Yet your seeming obsession with overblowing things like the uniformly malign influence of Islam or SJWs means that despite being a self professed supporter of free and open debate, you too often get upset when challenged and end up making unnecessarily personal attacks to those who disagree with you. In the meantime people can identify me easily in at least three ways through my profile just as they always could.

Only when I'm bad

I'll give you a clue:
http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/the_climbers.html

I tried that earlier. Link appears to be broken.

You might need to enable Flash.

Back on the more important subject of how the culture in Minneapolis policing was heading for something like this.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/05/minneapolis-police-union-bo...

Yes. 

I live round the corner from this.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police...

100 black people attack a lone white police officer while he was attempting to arrest a black suspected drug dealer who'd just rammed his police car in an attempt to get away.

I don't think there's any evidence to support this - they're just reporting what's going on. Yes, riots are dramatic...but that's what's happening. Accusing the BBC of racial bias isn't going to get you anywhere, it's the most liberal of all mainstream media organisations. The Guardian! Racist?! Seriously?

Their reporters, who are eye witnesses to goings-on.

Why? I read the BBC website, subscribe to the Telegraph, use the Guardian for free (and peruse the Daily Mail celebs page when I'm sitting on the bog). That's a sufficiently broad spectrum of source material to be able to formulate an opinion. 

Well, the French have just banned BLM's Paris protest, which kind of proves my point. The world was listening, but not anymore. They've gone from being the only voice, to having no voice, and they only have themselves to blame.

Peaceful protests change everything, by the way. Ever heard of Ghandi?

I'm not blaming them all - I'm saying that their voices have been drowned out. How am I to focus on the good side, when police officer are getting beaten up at the end of my street? Shops are being looted in the capitol and war memorials are being desecrated.

I'm focused on what is actually happening. This is what is happening.

In a depressing kind of way, the police are not the enemy here. Their outrageous behaviour has been a catalyst for change...the blockers are the idiots who forgot all about the purpose of the protest the moment they were given the opportunity to go looting. Your ire should be directed at them.

Where do the site rules say you may not reply to a poster using their real name?   (I may have overlooked it.)

The point is that you made an anti-scientific attack on the integrity of another poster (me), and when I replied pointing out why your attack was anti-scientific, and using your name, you went running to the mods because you didn't want to be publicly associated with your cowardly attack.

Pot, kettle, black.  Sorry, but on that you really are an utter hypocrite.   I hardly ever "personally attack" people except in justified retaliation, whereas you go straight in with the insults.

I visit Minneapolis/St Paul / Twin Citys regularly.Typical USA city, just hard core deprived areas in the middle, nice away from that.It has the largest indoor mall in the USA, massive.

Its a Democract city with a very strong liberal bias.Has some weird local politics from all I have been told.

Once cleared immigration there when the Cusoms computer system nationally was down. Filled in immigration card which was in Dutch with no English on the questions.

The infamous Fargo is about 6 hours drive away.On Mondays you see cars heading back to Minneaplois with shot deer strapped to the roof during hunting season.

Why on earth are you asking me and not the mods if you think the mods did something wrong to your posts? I'd certainly rather not have my name searchably attached to online  political arguments as for too many academics it has caused disciplinary issues at work (in ways that I think breach academic freedom... an area where I'd hoped you might have sympathy).

You say my post was anti-scientific and I say that's BS. If you care so much you can always post the crux of it again on another thread  (this thread has had enough distraction from it's serious subject matter already) and we can argue it out in public.

I'll happily let others judge for themselves who is playing the man or the ball. I should imagine many calmer posters might curse a plague on both our houses.

youtube.com/watch?v=9o12MMyNZx0&

I despair of the growing divisions in the US. I've always enjoyed my trips there (mainly climbing in the SW states). I see it as mostly down to popularist abuse of social media freedoms and the horribly biased Fox news but know the liberal media have occasionally been guilty of unfair stereotyping. Most white college educated people voted for Trump.. a man who should never have been able to become a candidate. It's not rednecks that caused the problem it's the establishment.

The BBC news showed that and others and several unprovoked attacks on journalists, including an interview of the woman who lost her eye.

You told me not to post links because you know what’s happening..

that’s called closed minded.
 

in my city we had days of protests and only on the last one was there any trouble by a small group of mainly white youths. 
 

You are the definition of a racist. You are thinking the worst of people with pre-conceived notions based on your links. Yet won’t accept the obvious that only the most dramatic events make transatlantic news. But why should things change? Your life is fine. 

youtube.com/watch?v=OpM-Xlh2XXg&

even the administration say it’s just some extremists Infiltrating largely peaceful protests, it’s bad when you are going further than Trump and Barr. Check your privilege.

The USA is the only place I have ever been where I have experienced overt racism, mind you that was in Tenesse. Never forgotten it.

Gun culture does not help in any police situation. I have been stopped enough times for minor motoring offences to understand you need to be f###g careful with your hands and do exactly what they ask.

There was a moving interview with the Mayor of Minneapolis on BBC the other day talking about what being called George means to American Blacks. George was  the name white people gave to any working black person unitl recently so " Hey George get me a drink" etc.. So the fact that it was a George who was killed hasa deep meaning to racism in the USA.

Difficulty with Trump. He really has no influence/control over police forces, it is a County/City/State issue.

Sorry to interrupt the personal feuds but I found this an interesting article about policing (in the states), it's arguing that basically the police are used to address many problems in society that they shouldn't be tasked with addressing and because of the training and the tools they have it leads to conflict rather than addressing the underlying issues.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670/how-much-do-we...

Okay, feel free to get back to the feuding!

If it wasn't legally OK it would be banned. It's a risk but nothing like as serious as other gatherings I've seen.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/31/durdle-door-remains-closed-...

"

Gun culture does not help in any police situation. I have been stopped enough times for minor motoring offences to understand you need to be f###g careful with your hands and do exactly what they ask."

I think its more than just gun culture (which is certainly an issue), it's the militarization, it's the heavy handed policing. They just do not de-escalate situations.

Some forces have taken the UK approach which is much slower and look to de-escalate. Here it's all fast and rushed. But lots of officers are ex-military with PTSD. 20% are vets. They consider it good training which I'm not sure it is. 

Even suicide by cop comes because they know the cops will shoot them dead. I think in the UK and other countries they will wait out.

Some forces have changed to community policing, removing the military gear, de-escalating and deaths have reduced by 40-50%.

https://www.apmreports.org/story/2017/05/05/police-de-escalation-training

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/06/04/michigan-legislature-p...

This is all only just happening. 

There have also been over the past few days some superb examples of how police should be handling these issues. So it is not all doom and gloom.

Do you think having elections for senior police figures is a factor? I see elections for sheriffs etc on tv, and wonder how it would work in the UK, I don't think the police and crime commissioners are the same thing

https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/policin...

Yeah for sure. I lived in Camden and they basically dismantled their police force and changed its whole ethos. Just an incredible change.

That' not a BLM protest is it?

Watch some other TV channels, there have been plenty of protests in the US, that haven't descended into riots.

they're in the places when riots are happening, to report the riots, can't you see the link?

OK then don't

Oh! thanks for that, I'd never heard of him wasn't he in Lord of the Rings.

The was a peaceful protest in Alabama once, there was one outside a church in Washington, the other day!

I think you conflating a lot of stuff, from all over the world to try and make your point, you've just told me there are no peaceful protests, but I've seen them. You're also trying to tie a drugs bust to BLM.

Look elsewhere.

Repeating stuff doesn't make it true, once again you're suggesting ALL the protesters are off looting as soon as they get the chance.

You're ire should be directed at the system which allows a copper to think he can take a handcuffed man out of his police car, kneel on his knee, ignore his pleas to be able to breathe, and who ends up killing him.

The very fact he thought this was an option is the issue.

Once again though no one is suggesting that rioting and looting is a good thing, it might be understandable but not good.

Police chief in the US don't have the same power as they do over here, they can sack officers, but the unions will often get the sacked officers back in work, which is why they end up with an officer kneeling on someone's neck who had 38 complaints against him.

There was an interview on Channel 4 with some states police chief, who dropped this bombshell, I was floored.

This is a major part of the problem, the Police Union, "look after themselves" it's not about what's right or wrong, they close ranks and support any interference. Which is probably why it's so shit, why the cops aren't trusted and why things never change.

Possibly, we do vote on the police. 

My local town in NH was beset by a bullying chief of police. They voted for no police. Just disbanded the police force. It was a massive issue but eventually he handed in his uniform and walked home in his underwear as a final protest.

But I went to a graduation by a state police officer. He gave the sheep, sheepdogs, wolves story to all these impressionable teenagers who loved it. It was horrific racism but also just simply good v evil. Ex Military police, interviewed insurgents in Afghanistan he said, I'm not sure I believe a word he said. Would come to school meetings with a gun on his hip. Absolute arse of a man.