UKC

Is this the downfall of the Tories?

Nope. This is the re-birth of the Tories!

Is this the rebirth of the Tories?

Nope, this is the downfall of the Tories!

Quote reported by Armando Iannucci on Twitter: "you can always rely on Boris Johnson to be second over the parapet!"

Fingers crossed buddy, fingers crossed x

LOL, make your minds up

Bit too early for my liking, if they could have held it together before imploding for another six months it would have been perfect. Still small mercies.

Borexit!

I don't think it is, unfortunately. This is him extracating himself from Teresa May (because of Bexit strategies etc) and then dissing her later and her Bexit strategy and then coming back trying to be going for Prime Minister!

Can't someone point the bastard at a real parapet?

Unfortunately, even if the Tories go, and labour (under Corbyn) got in we'd still be heading for brexit.

I wish someone would have the guts to stand up and say "bollocks to the referendum, let's end this madness".

Boris has gone!!!

Not likely, you'd need to break him up with a coat hanger first like the massive u-bend blocking shite he is.

I saw a great tip the other day - if your massive turd blocks the U bend and you don’t have a plunger, get some cling film and seal the loo, then flush- the increased air pressure will help dislodge the offending fecal matter. Top tip

That'd be profoundly undemocratic. If you wanted to extract yourself from this madness, you'd have a second referendum in which, I expect, a resounding majority would now vote against Brexit.

But you can't just backtrack on a referendum just like that.

As an ordinary, simple, humble human being, I find myself sometimes holding up my hands and saying "Listen, I got it wrong, now I know more about it I want to change my mind. Sorry it's inconvenient, but it's a good deal better than carrying on in completely the wrong direction."

I know that the more people involved, the more complex the decision-making; but why the heck shouldn't we have another referendum to be sure that we're going to get it right? It's not flouting the "will of the people", it's asking the people to confirm that it really is what they want.

Let's have another referendum, based this time on actual facts.

They had their shot, they f*cked it up.   Call it and move on.

The FTSE 100 rose sharply when he resigned.

Sure you're on the right forum?  If someone on UKC ever backed down on an opinion then it truly would be the end of times.  Pretty sure the book of Matthew even makes such a prophesy.

You can if it's non-binding, like this one. It wouldn't be without political costs of course.

Yes you can. It was advisory not binding and the margin is far too small; it was a referendum not an election. Add in all the rule breaches and lies by the brexiteers and it rapidly becomes scandalous to not summarily flush it down the loo like the giant stinking jobbie it is (much like Boris).

In practical terms it would help if the popular press (Mail, BBC, etc) didn't rile up the populace.

Yep, and going back to the EU saying "oops we got it wrong and can't afford to leave you" would really work in our favour wouldn't it. We'd never be able to get a good deal with them again as they just say "and what are you going to do about it". 

I don't know if it's the downfall of the party, but May should be very wary of the 'support' from Gove, who is for sure plotting HER downfall. 

(But  I'm sure May and  Oliver Robbins have Gove's number. ) 

It might have been argued to be non binding IF Cameron had not made the huge mistake of putting- in writing -to every household what the worst case scenario was, and then further confirming that even if we voted yes to that worst case Brexit,that the government WOULD act upon it. 

( check it out on your leaflet, Cameron negated any argument of it being advisory.

(Yes he was a fool, but we know that already. ) 

We could simply withdraw the notice and continue as members; there’d be no ‘deal’ to do. Except kissing goodbye to the rebate we had before all this nonsense, of course.

jcm

Why do you think we'd lose the rebate?   Withdrawing the Article 50 notification should put us back to the status-quo-ante.

Not convinced by the physics of that. If only getting rid of Tories was a simple matter of physics.

Which is all very well, assuming that you have access to some seals?

Exactly. When I instruct my phone to delete a text message it asks me to confirm.  I have to issue the instruction twice, to be sure. 

Upon conclusion of the referendum I assume someone in government consulted some civil service bods about possible outcomes in the event of not following through. If so I’d love to know what advice was given. 

Yes, we could. But my point was that we will have forfeited any negotiating power. We say to the EU do this, they say no and we will have nothing to force their hands with, our "give us a better deal or we leave card" has gone and by giving up we will have proven that we need them more than they need us. 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. 

But not in celebration. The FTSE rose sharply because foreign investors pulled out of GBP, thus increasing the profits of most FTSE 100 companies which typically earn their revenues in USD or other currency. It may not have amounted to an endorsement of Bojo’s term as foreign secretary, but it was certainly a measure of foreign despair at the UK’s stability.

a sad day

… profoundly undemocratic my arse... there was nothing remotely democratic about the farce that took place on 23rd June 2016... 

Regardless of party politics and my Brexit point of view, I would like Davies and Johnson to remain in their jobs.  They can then remain accountable for the success or failure of Brexit.

What makes you think that? The polling suggests otherwise, a very narrow remain lead and that's where most of the noise in the last 2 years has been from remain pushing their case. Funnily enough, the polling now is almost exactly as it was on the eve of the referendum and we know how that turned out

Who f*cked up? Its been a remainer in charge.

Not even remotely? Don't talk sh*te.

… we don't need another referendum, it would simply be another round of endless misinformation and lies peddled by politicians pushing their own agenda... 

… simply recount the votes cast in June 2016 but do not include those votes cast, for both remain and leave, by those aged 65 and over...

And Jeremy hunt replaces him

Why not?

Why not discount the votes of anyone under 30?

you talk bollox

Jeremy Hunt!!!

My God, the idea that foreigners might meet him and think he represents our country.

Has there ever been a less able holder of a great office of state? Seriously?

jcm

You do know who he's replacing,  yes?

… not really sure what you're suggesting here... the under 30's will have to live with the long term consequences, be they good or bad, of this decision... the over 65's won't...

… I was being somewhat generous in suggesting a cut off of age 65; if it had been my decision to make I'd have probably made it 50 and made a genuine effort to engage the youth in the whole process but, as has been mentioned on countless occasions, this referendum had nothing to do with what is best for GB Inc in the long term… it was simply about saving the Tory party... 

I’m no fan of the man, but I suspect he may know better than to refer to picaninnies, at least I hope so.  

I don't think anything Cameron put on a leaflet is legally binding.

… and you're a t**t... touché...

You do know that the average life expectancy is well into the 80's don't you so it's not like a 65 year old won't have to live with the consequences. You do also realise that it was this generation that voted to take us into to Europe in the first place and have had 40+ years to reconsider their decision unlike some kids who might have a lot of opinions but little knowledge and no experience upon which to base them.

You really are the epitome of a whinging spoilt tosser spouting whatever sh*te comes into your head because you can't get over losing. Frankly the comments you've made on here ought to be an embarassment to any remainer with an ounce of self respect and dignity. I wouldn't want to risk being tarred with the same brush by having someone spouting so much ill thought out drivel on my side.

Really?!

jcm

Oh sure, Boris was a complete disaster, unquestionably the worst Foreign Secretary in living memory. But he does have abilities, just not ones remotely suited to the task in hand. His fundamental dishonesty obviously limits him to certain roles, but he's a very good polemicist, a really quite talented conman, and I suspect would be an excellent door-to-door salesman or reality TV show host. Hunt isn't good at anything at all.

jcm

Ok, do you really think it helps the remian case win over doubters when you have someone 'on your side' making comments like these:

"there was nothing remotely democratic about the farce that took place on 23rd June 2016"

"simply recount the votes cast in June 2016 but do not include those votes cast, for both remain and leave, by those aged 65 and over"

"I was being somewhat generous in suggesting a cut off of age 65; if it had been my decision to make I'd have probably made it 50"

It might play well to audience of fanatical remainers but it really isn't helping your case beyond that, quite the opposite.

The only thing the kiddies under 30 are bothered about is free travel around Europe without visas.

Typical Remainer arrogance, again.
An over 65 has more life experience and wisdom than a spotty little 20 something permanently gazing into its mobile device.

Well, sure, but on the other hand it's surprising you don't find some at-least-equally-embarrassing things being said on your side. For example, the notion that there is a democratic mandate for any kind of hard Brexit, or for that matter the Great Bus Lie, or the Nazi poster, or Banks' string of lies. Those must have been at least a little bit embarrassing, surely? Or that chap from Macclesfield saying 'IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MUSLIMS, INNIT? NOTHING ELSE?'. Or the people who think that now we'll be able to deport foreign criminals without being troubled by their human rights?

jcm

"The only thing the kiddies under 30 are bothered about is free travel around Europe without visas"

"Typical Remainer arrogance, again."

Quite the juxtaposition, there.

jcm

What makes you think I don't find them embarassing? You won't find any posts of mine defending that sort of nonsense but then you don't find many posts of that nature from Brexiteers on here at all. Not in anything like the numbers that we get mad remainer crap but UKC is almost entirely a militant remain echo chamber which is how idiots get away with posting drivel like Wild Swan has above.

Now I should point out that I don't have a problem with people being remainers per se, or posting sensible pro remain arguments, that's absolutely fine by me because I believe in democracy. But I also believe in rational, balanced debate which is unfortunately in rather short supply on here because the threads get hijacked by a tiny band of fanatical zealots posting their own sh*te and as a consequence Brexiteers have all but abanded these threads, along with most rational remainers it has to said.

"What makes you think I don't find them embarassing?"

Well, the fact that you said you wouldn't want anyone on your side spouting such ill-thought-out drivel. 

"but then you don't find many posts of that nature from Brexiteers on here at all."

Again, really? The chap above who thinks under-30s are only interested in Europe for free rail travel, for instance?

jcm

But someone who's 51 say, may live to 100 for all we know. 49 years is pretty much living with the long term consequences.

Similarly, someone of 25 may die next year in a car crash.

So ignoring all the abusive posts above, your age cutoff has obvious flaws. Also, any such discussion would apply to all elections not just the referendum.

Your thoughts on engaging the youth with politics however has some merit.

As a 59 year old who voted remain (along with all my other older friends) I am not quite sure what you would achieve. Most of the UKip supporters round here were in their twenties. Lets just face it it was a badly run referendum.

Pretty stupid then, you'd have cut this Remain (and financially challenged, not elitist) household out of the vote!  And pretty well most of the people I know over your cutoff age voted remain.  We do have kids you know.

I really mean this comment (stupid) as you are someone who would have taken my right to participate in something I care deeply about!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd have taken that in return for remain winning and avoiding the present shitshow, to say nothing of the future shitshow.

jcm

I enjoyed the whole exchange, and that summed it all up nicely. Standardly polarised remain-leave argument with yourself as a calm mediator. Great stuff

Did you actually read what I wrote or do you just struggle with understanding? Surely the fact I wouldn't want people on my side spouting such drivel DOES show I find them embarassing.

Its a question of numbers. Of course there are wild claims made by both sides but since remainers outnumber Brexiteers on here by about 10 to 1 and the numbers actually still posting are even more skewed then the number of ridiculous comments from remain zealots vastly outnumbers those from Brexiteer zealots. But again I remind you I have no problem with remainers per se, just the ones who's fanaticism has clouded their ability for rational thought.

The fact that you can't bring it upon yourself to even mildly acknowledge the outrageous comments of Wild Swan for what they are whilst a number of other remainers have now done so is rather telling about where you lie on the rational Vs fanatical remain continuum.

Well that comment confirms what I just posted above.

Basically you are willing to accept any level of discrimination, intolerance or fanaticism if it means you can get your own way. We can all now interpret everything you say in the clear knowledge that they are the words of an intolerant, selfish zealot.

… you are quite right, the average life expectancy is now well in to the 80's... however, having witnessed several relatives and family members in their late 70's and 80's dying in shitty care homes full of groaning corpses lying in beds soiled with their own piss and s**t its not something I'm particularly looking forward to; you never know though, if the NHS gets the promised 350 million pounds per week promised by the leave campaign I might not have to

… you are also correct in saying that it was this generation who took us into Europe in  the fist place... its also this generation that has benefitted, in many cases most have had stable employment... "jobs for life if you like" - they've prospered in a mostly stable economy over their working lifetime; its this generation who has made unprecedented amounts of money in the housing market and its this generation that are now retired, many of them on very generous final salary pensions... their children, and certainly, their grandchildren won't be anywhere nearly so lucky...

… finally, you are also correct in identifying me as a whinging, spoilt tosser who hates losing… I have grown up as a member of the EU and very much want to remain 'European' - I, for one, will never be reconciled to leaving the EU...

Great, we can now view all your future posts knowing exactly were you're coming from.

… just trying to my bit for "whinging tossers who hate losing"... a much maligned section of the population...

Why have you been so abusive on this thread? 

Standard output mode as far as I can see.

jk

you haven't been following pec's illustrious career on here then?

Yeah, I have noticed a few things... I couldn't actually see what the spark was here and wondered if I might get a little insight from him. I'm optimistic about humans despite much evidence to the contrary...

… I think the spark was me suggesting an upper age limit of those eligible to vote in the referendum - the point I was making was had Cameron proposed that those 65 and over were not eligible to vote, the outcome would have been much more decisive… around 59% remain, 41% leave...

… he could have listened to Nicola Sturgeon who implored him to state that all four nations in the UK had to vote the same way in order for the result to be binding... finally he could have looked at many other democracies around the world who rule a two-thirds majority is needed for the result of a referendum to carry...

… as someone has already pointed out in the thread above.. the whole thing was simply ill-conceived and the arrogance of Cameron / Osbourne in thinking they would win was just as bad as the misinformation perpetrated by the leave campaign...

that's just not true. off the top of my head, there's summo, David Martin,  PMP, and you; and BigGer/Stroppygob would be, if he hadn't been banned. and that's who i can  come up with without having to think about it for more than a couple of seconds. By your logic, there should therefore be 50 remainers posting on these threads. go on, name them all then. 

and as to the civility displayed by posters- its notable that of those i mention, only summo these days makes any attempt to debate without an early resort to ad hominem tactics, and complaints about imaginary echo chambers. if ukc really was a remainer echo chamber, you wouldn't be posting here, and every Brexit thread wouldn't run to 200-odd posts, with people asking for the topic to be banned because they think its ruining the forums...

"with people asking for the topic to be banned because they think its ruining the forums..."

Really? I didn't see that. 

yes, there have been points where people have started threads complaining about the number of brexit threads....

in addition to the irony, since they were in the pub, and the brexit threads tended to be in the pub, its a bit like trying to tell the people sat at the next table what they're allowed to talk about...

How many of them have you seen on a Brexit thread recently? I hardly ever bother with them now because there's no longer any point and on the odd occassion I do I don't actually argue about Brexit itself. I just challenge some of the more idiotic comments made by the Europhile fanatics like Wild Swan above, just to keep them on their toes

Sorry but I disagree, there is no meaningful debate of Brexit any longer, even when rational remainers like BnB contibute they are just dismissed out of hand by the zealots who can only see doom and disaster. The vast majority of the 200 odd posts are by the militant remainers predicting the end of the world, insulting anyone who disagrees with them and making fatuous jokes about blue passports. The number of useful contributions to debate would scarcely reach double figures. In fact I have seen Brexit threads on here in which not a single pro Brexit comment has been made.

Now before you accuse me of hypocrisy, yes I've thrown a few insults, but I've never insulted anyone simply because they believed we'd be better off remaining than leaving, nor anyone who expresses a nuanced opinion that differs from mine. Only because of their contempt for large swathes of the population and the democratic process, their complete inability to accept that the EU is any other than perfect or that anything other than disaster is possible and their refusal to accept that other people may put a different value on things like sovereignty Vs economics than them.

Remind me which side of the argument phrases like "enemies of the people" and "traitors", "remoaners" and "f*ck business" emminate from.  Now, where does contempt mostly lie? 

Well, ‘enemies of the people’ emanated from Stalin, of course. I’m always surprised how comfortable the present right wing are with direct quotes from thirties fascism.

jcm

You forgot screaming "Britain First" while shooting and stabbing a tiny woman and sitting MP to death in the street because she was a bit lefty and didn't hate the darkies.

I didn't, but that was a deranged criminal.  The points I picked come from mainstream papers, senior politicians supporting brexit and general brexit discourse - they are characteristic, not outlying examples.

I think Boris would actually be quite useful for testing out the physics of toilet U-bends (see discussion above) and whether this applies to Tories. The only snag I could foresee is that he may well suffer from Floating Turd Syndrome, i.e., being so full of hot air he is impossible to flush away.

They’re testing the water. What can they get away with?

"The vast majority of the 200 odd posts are by the militant remainers predicting the end of the world, insulting anyone who disagrees with them and making fatuous jokes about blue passports. "

If you see the debate through this distorting filter then I guess you would be fed up with the debate. But I don't recognise that - the remainers here are for the most part frustrated but reasonably civil by UKC standards. There are still plenty of people trying to make sensible points if you look first before applying your filter.  And given the current state of Brexit you can hardly blame them for cracking jokes about the process. 

You do read your own posts, don't you? (if not, you might take a quick look, before posting more along the line of the above)

If you actually read my posts you'll see I'm talking about the threads on ukc, remoaners crops up occasionally though that's hardly contemptuous, but I've not seen the other phrases used on here.

I'm pretty sure Davis could not be held responsible for the failure of the negotiations, he was kept out well of the loop, so much so that the 'Chequers'  proposal  was never even shown to him before it was announced. It was Oliver Robbins the No10 civil servant that was leading the negotiations with Barnier, so all the concessions given to the EU are down to No10. 

Boris, I have no clue what involvement he had,but I would again guess that No10 have kept him in the dark too. 

You must live in a parallel universe. In 2 years Davis was solely responsible for negotiations, and barely turned up. If he was out of the loop by the end, it will have been because May finally realised he was both breathtakingly ignorant and utterly ineffectual.

You do realise that as head of negotiations you are not spending your life in a room with Barnier?

Both sides will have teams of staff, public and private, legal, financial and industry experts; who will each have their own team leader reporting into Davis or Barnier. 

There is no real need for Davis and Barnier to ever meet, other than a photo call for the press, where much was made of the fact that they did not have many folders or paperwork with them, but why would they.

She does have a habit of over trusting her closest aides. Like those shown the door after the GE campaign.

I think most people would want to keep him in the dark. Preferably a cellar

That's what I meant! Have a second referendum! But don't just have the government (or anyone else) cancel Brexit without another referendum.

So, now that DD, BJ and a couple of vice something-or-others that no-one had heard of anyway are out of the way, what happens next?

The Brexit bunch are threatening to make the government's life even more of a misery by forcing legal impediments to the Chequers statement (preventing UK from collecting customs duty on behalf of EU; pulling UK out of common VAT programme; making the Irish backstop illigal and something else. )  

Boris is clearly plotting something. A big speech probably. No doubt an opinion piece. 

The EU has not immediately thrown out the proposal... but this is probably more to do with not putting the knife into May than because they intend to accept any of it. 

If May can convince Labour & Lib Dem remainers to vote with the conservatives then she almost certainly has the numbers to see off the hardline brexiters. Its a big "if" though, as it goes against every fibre of an opposition's being. That said, if Corbyn is crafty enough he'd throw his lot in with May and watch the Tory party tear itself apart. Perhaps via Keir Starmer. 

The interesting figure in all this is Dominic Raab, an enthusiastic Brexiter, ambitious and by all accounts very bright. Accepting the job basically signs him up to the Chequers agreement even though he almost certainly doesn't like it. Maybe he's gambling that it will fail, or be watered down to a point where he can get behind it. Suspect he's not going to be content to sit on the sidelines to the extent that DD was.  

Also the DUP has been surprisingly quiet over the past few days....

Not the word I'd use, interesting, blames immigrants for the housing market spiraling upwards, doesn't believe in human rights.

More than that, apparently he was never intended to be the head of negotiations... a point that seems to be lost on most of the public and DD himself. Interesting anecdote from May's former speechwriter: 

"Seeking news stories to fill the Downing Street grid over recess, I decided to announce the names of the UK’s Brexit negotiating team. I arranged for the names to be sent to me and one was noticeable by its absence: David Davis.

Unsurprisingly I challenged this omission but the response I received was surprising. This was not some kind of administrative oversight. David was not, in fact, part of the team that would lead the negotiations. It was his – and DExEU’s – job to steer the Brexit legislation through Parliament and to prepare the country for life after Brexit. It was emphatically not his job to be part of the negotiating team to get us there. “He should be spending all his time in Parliament”, one person said."

You might be better to dispute this point with Bob Hughes' who commented otherwise .