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Buying an ex-commercial van advice

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 Robert Durran 15 May 2022

I am looking to buy an ex-commercial van (liking the idea of a Nissan NV200). I've no interest in a fancy conversion - just want a big box I can chuck all my stuff in and doss in. However I am  not at all clear on insurance and tax implications. Is an ex-commercial van more (or indeed less) expensive to insure or tax than a non-commercial van? If it is more expensive, can it be re-designated without a fancy conversion? Also, are speed limits lower for an ex-commercial van (and if so are they ever enforced).

Also, any thoughts on the NV200 (I have heard some good things)?

1
 fmck 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I would think about some basics. It's a bit miserable all the condensation droplets coming down off the metal roof the minute you start moving in the morning.

 peppermill 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Saw the light and punted my camper a couple of years ago for multiple reasons but basically- 

-Assume as an ex commercial that it will have been hammered for every single one of the miles on the clock. I'm stating the obvious but go over it obsessively and have some cash set aside for any mechanicals prior to starting the conversion. 

-Commercial will be more to insure and the criteria to re register as a motor home are pretty strict.

-Whether you want to tell your insurance company its still a panel van, do a partial conversion and use it as as a motor home is up to you obviously. Might be fine until it very suddenly isn't if you get what I mean...

-Insulate it well! 

As I said it's a couple of years since mine went and I'm a bit out of it but hopefully that's slightly helpful 

Post edited at 15:44
 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

You won't be able to get it reclassified for speed limits.  However, depending on what you do to it you may be able to claim it's no longer being used as a panel van so campervan speed limits apply. The law on this is a total mess with DVLA saying one thing and the cops saying something else. 

Also agree with fmck that a basic conversion is worthwhile if you'll be kipping in it regularly.

1
OP Robert Durran 15 May 2022
In reply to peppermill:

> -Whether you want to tell your insurance company its still a panel van, do a partial conversion and use it as as a motor home is up to you obviously. 

Why wouldn't I just be honest with them though?

Is commercial insurance massively more anyway?

Post edited at 15:59
OP Robert Durran 15 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> You won't be able to get it reclassified for speed limits.  

In some ways I'm not bothered. Mostly driving at 60 to save fuel these days anyway.

> Also agree with fmck that a basic conversion is worthwhile if you'll be kipping in it regularly.

So insulation and some sort of wooden lining? Is that expensive? Won't be doing it myself!

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

By ex-commercial do you just mean previously part of a fleet like British Gas or Royal Mail? I don't think that makes any difference to tax/insurance/speed limits. 

 Dax H 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

There is no such thing as a commercial van and a nine commercial van,  all vans as far as I'm aware are classes as commercial vehicles unless registered as a camper van. I may be wrong but I don't think I am.

The speed limit thing is enforced. I can't speak for everywhere but we have had a few NIP's through at work. My own was for 57 in a national speed limit.

If I were buying a S/H van I would be looking for an ex fleet van from a utility company, it will be well maintained and not ragged to death because they normally have trackers and speeding is often a dissaplinery (tried that 12 ways and spell check won't have it). 

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> In some ways I'm not bothered. Mostly driving at 60 to save fuel these days anyway.

It's 50 for vans on single carriageway.

> So insulation and some sort of wooden lining? Is that expensive? Won't be doing it myself!

Yes, I'd consider that a bare minimum to make it pleasant. Maybe a few hundred quid for materials, depending on what you use. Insulation is an easy job to do yourself. Ply lining is harder but maybe a day or two for a joiner if you could find one willing to do it.

Post edited at 16:06
 JoshOvki 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I have a panel van that is converted. Insurance isn't a problem at all, just a specialist insurer like a-plan, cost a lot less than getting commercial insurance. They ask you for the modifications done

OP Robert Durran 15 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> By ex-commercial do you just mean previously part of a fleet like British Gas or Royal Mail? I don't think that makes any difference to tax/insurance/speed limits. 

I'm not sure what I mean. Something like this:  https://www.autotrader.co.uk/van-details/202204194784306?onesearchad=New&am...

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I'm not sure what I mean. Something like this:  https://www.autotrader.co.uk/van-details/202204194784306?onesearchad=New&am...

I think Dax is right, there aren't commercial and noncommercial vans. We've got an ex British Gas caddy maxi, tax is the full whack, speed limit is based on the DVLA classification of panel van, insurance is much the same as our car.

 Ciro 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Why wouldn't I just be honest with them though?

Definitely be honest

> Is commercial insurance massively more anyway?

Yes, van insurance is generally 3 or 4 times the cost of motorhome insurance.

OP Robert Durran 15 May 2022
In reply to Ciro:

So much the same as a car or 3 to 4 times as much?! Or have I misunderstood?

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Ciro:

> Yes, van insurance is generally 3 or 4 times the cost of motorhome insurance.

This is not my experience. It'll depend on make, model and usage but our previous van insurance was much the same as a car and didn’t change when we had it reclassified as a camper. Current van is pretty much the same as the car.

 Ciro 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So insulation and some sort of wooden lining? Is that expensive? Won't be doing it myself!

Don't forget ventilation, to allow the water you're creating out. Ideally something at floor level and something at roof level that can allow air out without letting rain in.

The low level vent can be very cheap - cut a hole in the door, stick an aluminum louvre vent on the outside and a plastic caravan vent on the inside of the lining. At the roof level you can get a cheap mushroom vent, or pay a bit more for a "rooflight" - a clear one allows plenty of light in as well as airflow. I like the Seitz Mini Heki.

Celotex/Kingspan type boards are best for insulation. Much better than the camping mat and foil bubble wrap kits. Loft style fibre insulation is cheaper, but if you use that make sure you put a vapour barrier between the insulation and the ply lining.

 Ciro 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So much the same as a car or 3 to 4 times as much?! Or have I misunderstood?

When I changed from a car to a camparvan, my insurance halfed. Looking at van insurance policies before finding a "camper in conversion" policy, they were going to be about twice the car insurance. YMMV as others in the thread clearly have had a different experience. Probably depends a lot on location.

 Jenny C 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

As others have said a van is a commercial vehicle, doesn't matter if it's privately owned or just a fleet vehicle.

Depending on your employment you may be able to insure it on a social and domestic policy, but in our experience the only down side of a commercial policy is that you don't get third party cover to drive other vehicles.

 deepsoup 15 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> The law on this is a total mess with DVLA saying one thing and the cops saying something else. 

Nitpicking a bit, but I think the law is actually pretty clear - it's enforcement that is a total mess.  (With the cops and even courts occasionally getting it wrong.)

A camper and a panel van can be distinguished by what it says on the V5, so that's easy.  (Assuming the van is under 3.5t it's an 'N1' commercial van - a goods vehicle essentially - as opposed to a 'Motor Caravan' if it's a camper, which is a sub-division of category 'M1' and therefore considered to be a kind of car.)

The difficulty comes in if the van is a 'Dual Purpose Vehicle' - because then the same speed limits apply as to a camper (or car), but it'll still say 'N1' on the V5.  A lot of partially converted vans with rear seats and windows qualify as dual purpose vehicles, but there's no category on the V5 that they can be re-classified as.

The definition of a van that is a dual purpose vehicle is quite precisely laid out in the Construction and Use Regulations (1986)* but in spite of that people have still been fined and given points for speeding when they were driving a van that met all the conditions to qualify as such and weren't exceeding the car/camper/dual purpose vehicle limit.  I think the bottom line is that even in a dual purpose vehicle the only way to be completely certain that you're not going to get done for speeding is to drive as if the limits for a panel van still apply.

*link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

 jimtitt 15 May 2022
In reply to peppermill:

Speed/hammered isn't really the problem but having owned maybe half a dozen vans I know what it was used for matters most. Bakery delivery van second gear was finished, ex window installers van pemanently overloaded so gearbox, driveshafts and suspension finished, farm delivery on backroads the diff screamed and floor rotted out and so on. I'd always cater financially for something like a new turbo/ gearbox level of repair when budgeting.

Post edited at 17:12
 deepsoup 15 May 2022
In reply to Jenny C:

>.. the only down side of a commercial policy is that you don't get third party cover to drive other vehicles.

A lot of car policies don't do that either these days - it used to be completely standard but it's no longer safe to assume you have that without checking the small print.

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> A camper and a panel van can be distinguished by what it says on the V5, so that's easy.  

You would think so but actually it's not easy. I might not have the wording exactly right but the DVLA have basically said speed limits are down to usage rather than what it says on the V5. So if you're using it as a camper, camper limits apply. Naturally, the cops don't like that as they're then left deciding on a case by case basis whether something is a campervan or not.

I recently got a FPN rescinded because I sent them photos of my converted Caddy and they accepted that it was no longer being used as a panel van and didn’t look like a panel van because we'd converted it and added windows. This despite the V5 still saying panel van.

The response to this FOI makes for interesting reading:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/clarification_on_the_definition

Post edited at 17:35
OP Robert Durran 15 May 2022

I think I am.more confused than I was before starting this thread! 

Sounds like I maybe do need some sort of basic conversion.

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think I am.more confused than I was before starting this thread! 

> Sounds like I maybe do need some sort of basic conversion.

The speed limit thing is fundamentally confusing.

If it still looks like a panel van then you'll be better sticking to van speed limits. If it doesn't then you might get away with it!

 mik82 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So insulation and some sort of wooden lining? Is that expensive? Won't be doing it myself!

Doing it yourself is dead easy. Your van may already be ply-lined so it would simply be a case of removing, putting your choice of insulation in and then re-fitting. If it's not lined then you can buy pre-cut ply kits for about £200. The easiest (but not the best) way to insulate would be with self-adhesive closed cell foam, such as from Kiravans. Just cut to fit the panels with scissors and stick down.

https://www.kiravans.co.uk/products/van-insulation-lining-self-adhesive-foa...

If you're sleeping in it then you'll probably want some ventilation - but if just you the NV200 is a small van so you should be able to get away with fitting some wind deflectors and cracking the windows slightly at night.

As regards the speed limits - if it's just being lined and insulated then I don't think you'd be able to argue it's a camper so it's 50 single or 60 dual carriageway.

 Dax H 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Someone above mentioned tax, I forgot about that one.

The Mrs wanted a small van for the dogs, Citroen Berlingo van was about £300 to tax, the Citroen Berlingo car we bought instead, same age, same engine is £70.

Also someone said ply lining can be a pain, you can buy pre cutply lining kits for not a lot of money. 

 deepsoup 15 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> You would think so but actually it's not easy.

Oh good grief. 

Also, clicking your link I noticed even more 'Devil in the details' here:
"Please note that motor caravans which carry goods or burden not directly
necessary for the purpose of living in the vehicle, would be classed as
goods vehicles and subject to current goods vehicle requirements for speed
limits."

Seems to me a mountain bike, kayak or maybe even your ropes & rack might fit the bill there and be enough to turn your camper van back into a goods vehicle again if you meet a copper who decides to see it that way.  What a mess.

On the upside, I guess we all need to slow down a bit anyway.  My van is definitely a goods vehicle (well, actually, it's more of a mobile shed) and the reduced speed limits compared to a car have never bothered me.

Post edited at 17:57
 Rick Graham 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

What has not been mentioned so far .

Going from a car to a van what I noticed was everything flying around in the back if it was not packed fully for a weekend.

Vans are never as spacious as expected.

A basic ledge at least is required to sleep above with all the junk below.

Compared to a car , vans are noisy , I foam clad the insides after removing ply panelling more to reduce noise than insulation . Never found a van cold, even Scottish winter.

I foam clad my dispatch for £50, self adhesive foam (sort of), should have used £5 of plain foam and some glue.

Have you considered a people carrier ? Something like a seat Alhambra ? Quite spacious with all the seats out. 

Or a long wheelbase berlingo.

 DaveHK 15 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> Oh good grief. 

It's an absolute shit show. I think part of the problem is that DVLA and DfT definitions of campervan have diverged however I'd be a liar if I said I understood it!

 peppermill 15 May 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> Speed/hammered isn't really the problem but having owned maybe half a dozen vans I know what it was used for matters most. Bakery delivery van second gear was finished, ex window installers van pemanently overloaded so gearbox, driveshafts and suspension finished, farm delivery on backroads the diff screamed and floor rotted out and so on. I'd always cater financially for something like a new turbo/ gearbox level of repair when budgeting.

Kind of what I was getting at when I meant hammered. Ie its been leased as a work van there's a reasonable chance it's had a rough life! 

In reply to peppermill:

The perennial campervan question.

"can you get hammered and sleep in the van?" 

 girlymonkey 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm surprised at people saying van insurance more expensive, ours is pretty much the same as our car. Slightly higher at the moment due to 6 year old electric van Vs 17 year old petrol heap (sorry, car!!). Not much in it though and they were the same when our van was on old diesel heap! 

I love our van, we have it ply lined but no conversion for us. We regularly chuck in dogs, bikes etc so didn't want to be limited by a bed. We just use roll mats and sleeping bags in it like we would a tent.

 Wainers44 15 May 2022
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> The perennial campervan question.

> "can you get hammered and sleep in the van?" 

At what speed, and motorway or dual carriageway?

 Timmd 15 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I've been browsing different youtube mechanics' videos, I find mechanical things interesting, and it's handy for when I've learned to drive, I get the impression that Nissan's quality has gone downhill (to do with their CVT transmissions/automatic gearboxes). I'd maybe spend half a day googling into anything to beware of with that model of van, at what mileage intervals and what warning codes to look out for when it's scanned, and pay a mechanic to check it over.

Post edited at 19:46
1
 mike reed 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert…. An NV200 will be too small for you mate. If you want to sleep in it you’re going to need something a bit longer. I’m 5’7” and its a bit small for me!!

 girlymonkey 16 May 2022
In reply to mike reed:

My husband is 182cm and ok in the E-nv200, which I presume is the same size as the NV200

 mike reed 16 May 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

Wow, really….. Is that stretched out straight or with knees bent??
The NV300 is a great van and a more usable size. I’ve found the NV200 great for narrow roads and economical driving. A fine wee van!

 shantaram 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

We’ve also got a non converted panel van that we use for occasional dossing in and transporting our bikes etc. 

Insurance - as Dax said, you can either insure it as a commercial van or camper van. Camper van insurance requires the van to be classed as a camper and meet certain specs such as fixed bed, windows etc. We insure ours as a commercial vehicle and it’s not much more than regular car insurance if you shop around. 
 

Speed limits - unfortunately you’ll need to comply to 50mph on single carriageway and 60mph on dual and 70mph on motorway. It makes no sense with a lightly loaded vehicle, but hey ho. 
 

I’d strongly recommend insulating, lining and even carpeting the walls and roof of your van. It makes for a quieter driving experience and a more pleasant sleeping experience. We’ve put Altro flooring in ours which is hard wearing and wipe clean. You can either do it yourself or there are loads of camper van conversion places that will do it for you. 
 

Ventilation - we have side window wind deflectors and just crack the windows open a little.
 

 Dax H 16 May 2022
In reply to shantaram:

> Speed limits - unfortunately you’ll need to comply to 50mph on single carriageway and 60mph on dual and 70mph on motorway. It makes no sense with a lightly loaded vehicle, but hey ho. 

It makes sense that vans have a lower speed limit. Mine is rated to 3.5 ton and weighs in on the scales at 3 ton. You wouldn't want to be doing 60 in it on anything but the streightest country roads. It handles fine when empty but if the speed limit depended on the actual weight it would be massively open to abuse. 

What I don't get is why a camper has a higher speed limit, its the same physical size and once you add furniture, insulation, water, food, loads like bikes and kyaks the weight will be getting up there. They should definitely be on the lower limit, especially considering most are driven infrequently by people who normally drive much smaller vehicles and in the most part on unfamiliar roads as well. 

I come across a lot of nervous camper van drivers up in the dales, you can see their eyes like deers in a headlight as I approach them in my van on a narrow lane. 

2
 DaveHK 16 May 2022
In reply to Dax H:

> They should definitely be on the lower limit, especially considering most are driven infrequently by people who normally drive much smaller vehicles and in the most part on unfamiliar roads as well. 

> I come across a lot of nervous camper van drivers up in the dales, you can see their eyes like deers in a headlight as I approach them in my van on a narrow lane. 

Why not have different visitor and locals' speed limits? Or limits based on competence? 

It's also worth noting that heavier motorhomes (over 3.05t) are restricted to the same speed limits as vans.

As I said upthread, the law on this is a mess, vehicles and how people use them have changed and the law just hasn't kept up.

 Wainers44 16 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> Why not have different visitor and locals' speed limits? Or limits based on competence? 

> It's also worth noting that heavier motorhomes (over 3.05t) are restricted to the same speed limits as vans.

> As I said upthread, the law on this is a mess, vehicles and how people use them have changed and the law just hasn't kept up.

Ours was an ex VW finance van, converted to a camper. I got it re-registered as a camper, had to evidence it was done properly etc.

Agree with Dax,  speed limit differences make no sense.

The "locals" regulations wouldn't work and would be unenforceable? Down here I would prefer a "can reverse " permit to apply, as many grockles simply go rigid with fear when they hit the Devon lanes and meet another vehicle!! 🤣

 DaveHK 16 May 2022
In reply to Wainers44:

> Ours was an ex VW finance van, converted to a camper. I got it re-registered as a camper, had to evidence it was done properly etc.

I assume this was a while ago? The criteria have changed and many vehicles that we'd recognise as a camper wouldn't qualify.

 Neil Williams 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

One thing to be aware of if you want to go back to a car at any point - it's easy to find an insurer who will take a car no claims bonus on a van, but there are far fewer that will take a van no claims bonus for a car.  Only one I found to do it was Budget who despite the name charged a fortune.

If the NV200/Berlingo/Ford Tourneo Connect* size van is what you're interested in, it might be as easy to buy the car version and put blinds on the windows if you want to kip in it?  That way you get the car speed limits, plus rear seats if they're occasionally useful.

* I'd say the latter is the best of them though aren't necessarily easy to come by.

Post edited at 11:13
 Neil Williams 16 May 2022
In reply to Wainers44:

> Agree with Dax,  speed limit differences make no sense.

Yes, agreed, though I must admit these days my view tends towards the idea that the slightly lower *van* ones should apply to all vehicles.  It would save the cost of progressively putting 50 signs on singles (which prevents a lot of accidents by considerably reducing overtaking), and occasional very wide singles could be signed up to 60.

 girlymonkey 16 May 2022
In reply to mike reed:

I've never really asked him or noticed what he does with his knees, but seems ok in it.

The dog does insist on trying to squeeze in at his feet though, which he does object to!! It is not husband + dog at feet length!! Dog fits fine at my feet, but seems to prefer to shove husbands feet out the way. Lol!

 Phil West 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I don’t know if this is helpful or not but I expect a lot of people are going to be selling their van life in the next few years. The Manchester Clean Air Zone surprisingly comes all the way out to West Yorkshire near me so if I want to get on the motorway I have to enter it (when it comes in, that is). 
 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-a-clean-air-zone

 Neil Williams 16 May 2022
In reply to Phil West:

Would having to pay a tenner to get to the motorway when you go away really be that much of a barrier?  I doubt most people would be using these for their daily commute.

Post edited at 11:11
 Wainers44 16 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

> I assume this was a while ago? The criteria have changed and many vehicles that we'd recognise as a camper wouldn't qualify.

Yes true, it  was a few years ago, just before the rules changed. Ours with pop roof etc could not be re-registered now.

 Mike Stretford 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I've no interest in a fancy conversion - just want a big box I can chuck all my stuff in and doss in.

Based on what you've said you really want an estate or mpv. Can't see the point in a van if you're not going to convert it. I have slept in an unconverted transit, and doss in the back of my Astra estate 1 or 2 times a year (with home made curtains and blinds on side windows)....... the estate is better. Roof box can be added for extra space...... even with that, 5 mins reconfiguration and you have a normal car you can get 5 people in. No hassle with insurance, speed limits, paying extra on tolls ect.

> Also, any thoughts on the NV200 (I have heard some good things)?

Shorter than most estates/mpvs.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to Rick Graham:

> A basic ledge at least is required to sleep above with all the junk below.

Yes, that is the one thing I think I would do. Something to sit on as well as sleep and space underneath to put stuff.

> Have you considered a people carrier ? Something like a seat Alhambra ? Quite spacious with all the seats out. 

Possibly. I would like something I can sit in rather than just lie down though (see above).

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to Timmd:

> I've been browsing different youtube mechanics' videos, I find mechanical things interesting, and it's handy for when I've learned to drive, I get the impression that Nissan's quality has gone downhill.

Since when do you think it has? I would be buying one a few years old.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to mike reed:

> Robert…. An NV200 will be too small for you mate. If you want to sleep in it you’re going to need something a bit longer. I’m 5’7” and its a bit small for me!!

I did lie down on the bed in one that a friend had converted and it did seem ok, but I shall certainly check again. I am 6'5" and I know a lot of the smaller vans would be hopeless. I also find that the driving position in some vehicles doesn't work for me.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> If the NV200/Berlingo/Ford Tourneo Connect* size van is what you're interested in, it might be as easy to buy the car version and put blinds on the windows if you want to kip in it?  That way you get the car speed limits, plus rear seats if they're occasionally useful.

Certainly worth thinking about. I do like the look of the Connect. Though I don't think there is a car version of the NV200. Not too bothered about blinds (I've been used to car dossing without for decades!)

Post edited at 16:30
OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> Based on what you've said you really want an estate or mpv. Can't see the point in a van if you're not going to convert it.

I have had estate cars for more than 30 years and have always dossed in them. But I am retiring in a few weeks time, so see myself spending a lot more time away (I hope!) including longer trips in Europe. So the van would be a sort of retirement present to myself. I want something that I can sit and cook in out of any rain of midges, fit more stuff in and not have to do a complicated repacking faff every time I stop to sleep or get going again. Also quite like the idea of having room for a porta-potty thing.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022

Thanks all for all the very helpful advice and suggestions. It sounds like I would certainly want to put in wooden panels with insulation and even I might cope with a kit for them (?). I would aim to put a sleeping shelf in of some sort. I suppose I might slowly add other things. In some ways the speed limit issue doesn't bother me (I've been trying to keep to 60 recently anyway) and the lower speeds would certainly be fuel efficient, though there would probably be times it would be frustratingly slow.

 Neil Williams 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Though I don't think there is a car version of the NV200.

There is, though they aren't very common and can be a bit pricey.  It's called the NV200 Combi.  There's also now an EV version though that'd be *very* pricey!

 Rick Graham 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran: 

>  Also quite like the idea of having room for a porta-potty thing.

Make sure its well secured when driving

From experience  

 speaking for a friend .

(Made that last bit up , fortunately)

 mutt 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I

>  the speed limit issue doesn't bother me (I've been trying to keep to 60 recently anyway) and the lower speeds would certainly be fuel efficient, 

If it's fuel efficiency you value stay well away from a van of any description. It will drain your wallet. A estate car on the other hand should accommodate you and a few creature comforts.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to mutt:

> If it's fuel efficiency you value stay well away from a van of any description. It will drain your wallet. A estate car on the other hand should accommodate you and a few creature comforts.

I want the advantages of a van. Having decided that, I want it to be as fuel efficient as possible ideally.

 jimtitt 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

NV200 standard cargo length 2040mm, height 1358mm, width 1500. Other versions available.

 Mike Stretford 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I have had estate cars for more than 30 years and have always dossed in them. But I am retiring in a few weeks time, so see myself spending a lot more time away (I hope!) including longer trips in Europe. So the van would be a sort of retirement present to myself.

Ah right...... though it does sound like you deserve something better than you describe in the OP!

I did look into this myself, and did favour the MPV versions as they have windows and comfortable interior as standard. I nearly bought a wheelchair compatible VW Caddy Max.... it really did tick the boxes. In the end I realised I didn't have time to use it, unlike yourself!

Does sound like you could do with the long wheel base version of whatever you get (sometimes L2 or L3).

 Timmd 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Since when do you think it has? I would be buying one a few years old.

Since they were bought out by Renault, some sources say that their quality started to decline during the noughties.

It's not what I think, it's what I've absorbed. Don't shoot the messenger, and all that.

nb: Here you go.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=has+nissan+quality+gone+down&sxsrf=AL...

Post edited at 18:34
 Dax H 16 May 2022
In reply to shantaram:

> Speed limits - unfortunately you’ll need to comply to 50mph on single carriageway and 60mph on dual and 70mph on motorway. It makes no sense with a lightly loaded vehicle, but hey ho. 

It makes sense that vans have a lower speed limit. Mine is rated to 3.5 ton and weighs in on the scales at 3 ton. You wouldn't want to be doing 60 in it on anything but the streightest country roads. It handles fine when empty but if the speed limit depended on the actual weight it would be massively open to abuse. 

What I don't get is why a camper has a higher speed limit, its the same physical size and once you add furniture, insulation, water, food, loads like bikes and kyaks the weight will be getting up there. They should definitely be on the lower limit, especially considering most are driven infrequently by people who normally drive much smaller vehicles and in the most part on unfamiliar roads as well. 

I come across a lot of nervous camper van drivers up in the dales, you can see their eyes like deers in a headlight as I approach them in my van on a narrow lane. 

 JLS 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

If it’s just for sleeping, have you considered a secondhand hearse?

Put some flowers in the window and you may be offered a little leeway with parking charges and such like…

 DaveHK 16 May 2022
In reply to JLS:

> If it’s just for sleeping, have you considered a secondhand hearse?

> Put some flowers in the window and you may be offered a little leeway with parking charges and such like…


 JLS 16 May 2022
In reply to DaveHK:

Harsh. I find Bob reasonably personable.

Post edited at 19:55
 CantClimbTom 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Old advice was never buy a 2nd hand van if it had a towbar unless you really wanted a towbar. Not that towbars are evil, but if the last owner drove round pulling a road compressor or something behind the van all day it was likely the engine/gearbox would be heavily worn for the mileage

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to JLS:

> Harsh. I find Bob reasonably personable.

Thanks

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022

So I've just been checking out my friend's NV200. Turns out its the MPV version (Combi) which she got converted. Nice enough to drive and didn't feel underpowered. Driving position ok. Plenty long enough to sleep in the back. Good headroom even for me when sitting on the bed. She gets 50mpg plus out of it. I'm very taken with it. Only thing is that the usual panel van versions come with a bulkhead which might make it a bit too short, but it does sound like it can be reasonably easily removed.

 Dax H 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Make sure you sit in the van version, often there isn't as much legroom in the front compared to the MPV version due to the bulk head. I don't know if this is the case with the Nissan. 

 alan moore 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  a bulkhead which might make it a bit too short, but it does sound like it can be reasonably easily removed.

I once removed an upper bulhead with a power saw and filed the edges down. The bottom (reinforced) half, had to stay put. That gained heating and fresh air from the cab, but didn't increase lying -down headroom.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to Dax H:

> Make sure you sit in the van version, often there isn't as much legroom in the front compared to the MPV version due to the bulk head. I don't know if this is the case with the Nissan. 

Photos make it look like the bulkhead is shaped so the seats go as far back, but obviously I'd check.

OP Robert Durran 16 May 2022
In reply to alan moore:

> I once removed an upper bulhead with a power saw and filed the edges down. The bottom (reinforced) half, had to stay put. That gained heating and fresh air from the cab, but didn't increase lying -down headroom.

Some reports say it can fairly easily be fully removed just by unscrewing some things. Probably beyond my own practical skills of course.

 RobAJones 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Some reports say it can fairly easily be fully removed just by unscrewing some thing.

It was on our vivaro, and we sold it for enough to pay for the ply lining. 

 Mike Stretford 16 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> So I've just been checking out my friend's NV200. Turns out its the MPV version (Combi) which she got converted. Nice enough to drive and didn't feel underpowered. Driving position ok. Plenty long enough to sleep in the back. 

Interesting. I think I was wrongly comparing the length of vans/mpvs to my estate, which I can just lie down in. But of course the cab and engine of a van is shorter than a car (but taller), leaving more room in the back.

 BruceM 17 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Hi Robert

We were in the same position as you: camping in our car for years but wanting to move into something a bit bigger to fit stuff in - particularly a toilet.  We also go to Europe for extended trips and window security is an issue.

Was also worried and confused about all that insurance stuff, speed limits restrictions...

We were quite keen on NV200 for the good balance of size/length etc.  Was worried how the smaller wheels would go on long trips.  Also just clearance.

In the end went with something bigger.  Ford Transit Custom.  It's great for us.  But I think we would have been happy with the NV200 too.  If the wheels/clearance etc are really OK.  As you will know, the smaller and more car-like you can get away with, the better.

Our Custom is still a panel van.  Looks like one too.  No windows, no vents.  But I did remove the bulkhead.  (In our case it was just about 16 or so 6mm screws.)

I did all the work myself.  And because we live in Scotland, I spend a lot of money and time on insulation.  Just multiple layers of stick-on foam and all covered in carpet.

The rest of it is kitted out like a bivvy hut.  Not a traditional camper.  But importantly a toilet beneath a trapdoor in the rear of the bed.  These days you need a toilet to be able to stay anywhere.  There are too many other people around doing the same thing to continue going oldskool of digging holes and rocks and stuff.

But you don't need kitchens and sinks.  Camp stove on wooden base.  Water containers...

Windows and vents: surprisingly, if you take the bulkhead out, there is loads of light in the back from the front cab windows.  I'm so glad we didn't cut holes.  Now we can be quite private and discrete in the back, while all those windowed camper types are showing off everything to the world.

As for ventilation.  We open the side door a little (or a lot) when cooking.  Just a crack is enough if it is raining.  In midge time you obviously want to avoid that.  But we also take flasks so can store boiling water.  We also bought some high powered magnets and cut up a midge net to be able seal one of the partially-open front side windows.  That is also great in a European summer.  A roof vent could maybe make life easier?, but I've not yet found the need to cut a hole in the roof.

Insurance: was worried since ours is not a camper, but it also is not a standard van (no bulkhead, and insulation and carpet etc.)  But it was actually pretty easy.  There are a few UK companies that specialize in insurance for all sorts of modified vehicles.  Our sort of thing seems to be labelled as a "Day Van".  You can have windows and vents cut in the sides if you want.

We have insurance with Sterling (was HIC).  They're great to deal with.  Much nicer than the usual car insurance telephone crews.  We want to be in Europe for up to 6 months a year (3 + 3months), so pay a bit more (~£450).  But during the pandemic downsized to just a normal mostly UK insurance with up to 90 days in Europe and that cost about £350 ish/year.  So a bit more than a car, but not too bad.  (Vehicle cost 13k including the VAT, that I and you would have to pay.)

Speeds: Everyone goes on about needing to convert to a camper classification to remove the lower speed restriction.  But it isn't a problem.  There is now so much traffic in Scotland that flows slow down a bit anyway, so there is no issue.  The biggest problem are lorries, who should also be restricted, but love to bully you from behind to speed up to above car limits!

Once the A9 cameras actually use vehicle data to identify different limits for different vehicle types it will make life easier.

Buying: I looked around for a while to find something with low mileage, and also looked presentable.  So many quite-new vans look really beat up.  So imagine how they are treated.  I guess you also have to be lucky.  But we have been.  4 years on and everything is still great.  Although last year the gardeners went and put the first dent in ours with a leaf blower!

In general, I got some good advice off UKC on how to do everything.  And it all worked out well.

So happy to answer any specific questions any time in the future.

Good luck.

Bruce

OP Robert Durran 19 May 2022
In reply to BruceM:

Thanks for all that Bruce - lots of good information and stuff to think about.

OP Robert Durran 19 May 2022

I am now looking at the Berlingo Multispace MPV (not yet been in one to see if it is quite long enough for me to sleep in but shall do so tomorrow). This would get round all the insulation/ventilation faff and speed limit issues of buying a panel van and they seem to get excellent mpg. I've found two low mileage ones for sale which have been converted for a wheelchair with back seats removed and the central part of the floor lowered (this would allow significantly better head room when sitting on a lower bed. Anyway (I'm fairly clueless about these things), in the absence of any further information, which is likely to be a better buy? 8 years old with 8000 miles on the clock or 5 years old with 17000 miles on the clock. Both are one owner and I'm guessing have mainly been used for short journeys.

 Neil Williams 19 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'd be more interested in which engine is in it.  The PSA 1.6 HDi has a terrible habit of eating turbos if not serviced precisely per the manufacturer's requirements (in particular the usual practice of hoovering the oil out via the dipstick can't be used, it has to be dropped from the drain plug or muck builds up which then causes blockages).  The 2.0 HDi has less of a problem and the petrols not at all.

I believe they did a modification to make this less of an issue in the later engines so 5 years old may be better (and 8 years/8000 suggests lots of short journeys which diesels don't like).

They are certainly vehicles where a full main dealer service history (and not e.g. Kwik Fit - DIY may actually be better than that because of the specific issue) is of value.

Post edited at 10:10
In reply to Robert Durran:

Another option to consider is the grey import people carrier conversion. I have had a converted mazda bongo for 16 years and it still serves me well. Good examples of bongos are now hard to find but alternatives exist, have a search around. Specialist insurers exist and are reasonable and no speed limit vagaries. Available converted or as a base vehicle. 

 BruceM 19 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I'd be more interested in which engine is in it.  The PSA 1.6 HDi has a terrible habit of eating turbos if not serviced precisely per the manufacturer's requirements (in particular the usual practice of hoovering the oil out via the dipstick can't be used, it has to be dropped from the drain plug or muck builds up which then causes blockages).  The 2.0 HDi has less of a problem and the petrols not at all.

That is primarily what put me off all the Berlingo type small vans.  The internet is crammed full of talk about how much of a disaster that 1.6 diesel engine is.  It is in lot's of small vehicles.  I decided I would only go with that vehicle if it were petrol.  Which these days could actually be a good thing.

Having said that, once you look, EVERY type of van has a bad reputation for something out there in internet land.  I almost gave up on the idea of a van because of that.

 Neil Williams 19 May 2022
In reply to BruceM:

To be fair I had a petrol 2005 Berlingo and it was a great vehicle, possibly the best I've had.  A bit underpowered (so the 1.6 petrol may have been better than the 1.4) but wonderfully practical, spacious, comfortable and easy to drive.  Did about 40mpg which isn't bad for a brick on wheels.  It was also dirt cheap brand new - they later got a bit more expensive as they went from being marketed as cheapo family cars and were instead pushed as lifestyle vehicles (plus the £-EUR rate becoming worse).

I don't think they offer new petrols on that vehicle now, sadly, but I don't know how far back it was they dropped them.  That said, I believe the very new diesels don't really have the above issue unless you completely skimp on servicing.

I think the van horror stories will be because people work them really hard, far more so than cars, and so any design faults do show up more.  But that engine is definitely a bad one - fine if serviced to the letter of the requirements, but bad otherwise.  I'd probably consider one with full main dealer service history or home-serviced by someone I talked to and sounded like they knew what they were doing (try asking "how exactly did you do the service?") but not one that had been to Kwik Fit etc or had any missed/late services, even though I normally don't have issues with them.

Post edited at 15:22
OP Robert Durran 19 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I'd be more interested in which engine is in it.  The PSA 1.6 HDi has a terrible habit of eating turbos if not serviced precisely per the manufacturer's requirements.

Thanks for that. Not ruling the Berlingo out, but I shall definitely ask for full service record and be scrupulous about servicing if I get one (I have a really good local garage).

OP Robert Durran 19 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think the van horror stories will be because people work them really hard, far more so than cars, and so any design faults do show up more. 

I would guess that a vehicle used for ferrying someone in a wheelchair around has probably not been thrashed.

 Neil Williams 19 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I would guess that a vehicle used for ferrying someone in a wheelchair around has probably not been thrashed.

I would similarly suspect not, though diesel engines prefer long journeys than short ones, particularly if there's a DPF.

 LastBoyScout 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Yes, I'd consider that a bare minimum to make it pleasant. Maybe a few hundred quid for materials, depending on what you use. Insulation is an easy job to do yourself. Ply lining is harder but maybe a day or two for a joiner if you could find one willing to do it.

If you Google a bit, I'm pretty sure you should be able to find templates for ply lining for most vans, maybe cost you a few £ to download them.

I'd get onto a couple of van conversion forums and ask there.

If you have the time and the skills, I've seen a couple of very cunning arrangements with pull-out drawers under the floor. Particular highlight was one that pulled out of the side door with drop-down legs and was set up with stove and kitchen bits. At the back, a drawer pulled out with legs and was full of diving tanks and other gear.

 Dax H 20 May 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> If you Google a bit, I'm pretty sure you should be able to find templates for ply lining for most vans, maybe cost you a few £ to download them.

Ebay, £160 for a full precut ply lining kit including the floor for the Nissan van. Probably cost around £100 to buy the material and we'll worth the extra £60 to not faff about with 8x4 sheets and a jigsaw. 

OP Robert Durran 20 May 2022
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> If you have the time and the skills.

I have absolutely no skills; I find using a screwdriver quite challenging.

OP Robert Durran 20 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I would similarly suspect not, though diesel engines prefer long journeys than short ones, particularly if there's a DPF.

But should I worry about this for a low mileage (16000 miles) vehicle?

In reply to Robert Durran:

You should be aware of it - they are very costly to replace. If the DPF regeneration has not been working/ignored by driver then it would fail an MOT. Same if a DPF is meant to be there but stolen and never replaced.

Regeneration is an easy and normal part of driving vehicles with them, but I guess most drivers of low mileage vehicles don’t drive to regen them as routine if they even know what to do - combo of revs, speed, temp, etc needed. Longer average driving stints, motorway driving, or higher mileage vehicles are less likely to have a DPF problem.

One thing I know some folk do is make it a condition of buying that you get a new MOT. If the DPF regen warning light is actually on for a test drive take that into consideration and either budget accordingly or walk away unless it’s dealt with.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You have to do a fair amount to get it re-classified these days. It was changed sometime in the few years and I think some of the changes have been made to make sure they look like campers and not just vans/stealth campers. eg.

  • you need at least 2 windows in rear with at least 1 being on the side
  • camper style graphics/decals are also on the checklist

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-moto...

 Alkis 20 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> A lot of car policies don't do that either these days - it used to be completely standard but it's no longer safe to assume you have that without checking the small print.

Interestingly, I had the opposite, I had assumed that it doesn't come with my policy as I couldn't see it on the front page of the policy. When I renewed and inquired about getting it added I was told it's standard on all of my insurer's policies... Doh!

 DaveHK 20 May 2022
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

> You have to do a fair amount to get it re-classified these days. 

They won't accept a small van at all, it needs to have a high roof and pop-tops don't count.

My mate's conversion looks like the one in this link and it was rejected. https://www.bodans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/VW-T6.1-Campervan-Sales...

Post edited at 08:59
 LastBoyScout 20 May 2022
In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

That reminds me - used to be a good source of arguments at the toll booth on the Severn Bridge, as camper vans and commercials were a different rate.

No longer an issue, though, as you no longer need to pay the tolls.

 Neil Williams 20 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

I think that's a bit de minimis.  There's barely a camper van on the road that doesn't have a couple of bikes on the back (visible rather than inside) and stuff for the holiday inside.  You'd need to actively hack off a police officer to end up done in that way.

Most speed enforcement is by camera, anyway, and that'll go off what it says on the V5.

 DaveHK 20 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Most speed enforcement is by camera, anyway, and that'll go off what it says on the V5.

On the A9 at least the static average speed cameras don't seem to differentiate between vehicles with different speed limits. Camera vans definitely do though.

 deepsoup 20 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think that's a bit de minimis.

[Googles..]
Maybe.  I don't know really.  The rules are a bit of a mess, enforcement does seem to be pretty arbitrary, and it's very easy to see how a couple of mountain bikes on the back can be construed as "goods or burden not directly necessary for the purpose of living in the vehicle".

> You'd need to actively hack off a police officer to end up done in that way.

Well, harking back to some recent shitshow threads, here's an area in which I like to 'check my privilege' as they say.  I'm an articulate well educated middle aged white bloke.  You or I might need to "actively hack off a police officer" to be treated unfairly, but apparently after all these years Constable Savage is still alive and well.

> Most speed enforcement is by camera, anyway, and that'll go off what it says on the V5.

That's more or less where I came in on this thread: there's nothing on a V5 to distinguish between a regular 'N1' cargo vehicle and a 'dual purpose' vehicle to which car/camper speed limits apply.  The construction and use regulations specify precisely what a dual purpose vehicle is, but apparently it often makes no difference whatsoever whether the vehicle fits that description or not. 

What I didn't realise prior to reading this thread was that even a camper van registered as such on the V5 is still a regular N1 cargo van if a copper in a bad mood just arbitrarily decides it is.

On a purely physical level, it's plainly ridiculous that a home-converted van or indeed an ordinary van carrying a light cargo should be subject to a lower speed limit on safety grounds than a minibus carrying 15 people and their luggage.  Whichever limit applies, it should be the same for both vehicles.

In reply to DaveHK:

> They won't accept a small van at all, it needs to have a high roof and pop-tops don't count.

Oof, that sucks! Not finished mine yet but it is a H2 roof so should be fine.

 BruceM 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I have absolutely no skills; I find using a screwdriver quite challenging.

If you did get something that needs lining, I think you need to get someone to do it for you.  But even there you have to be careful to find someone who does a good sealing job.

When you look around on youtube for advice on insulating/lining there are some real hacks amongst some good stuff.  I spent ages collecting advice and sifting through all the rubbish.

Then spent a bit of money and time (around 3-4 weeks every day all day), cleaning, sticking on layers of soundproofing, insulation, cutting/sanding plywood (I bought pre-cut panels as they weren't much more than good plywood sheets alone, but they needed to be trimmed to fit my bulkier interior once all the insulation was in place), and gluing on carpet.

It looks great and I think(!) I have kept as much moisture space out as possible.  But it was a lot of work!!!  I am amazed I did all that and hope I never have to do it again.

Putting in the bed/toilet/storage is all a lot more fun and the only real issue is making sure it is all secure.

 Neil Williams 20 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

I used to have a N1 registered Land Rover Defender which was a DPV (like all large 4x4s with seats/windows in the back and pickups etc) and thus took car limits (if you wanted to see it blowing burning £50 notes out of the exhaust, anyway).  So I probably should have known that the DPV status didn't appear on the V5, sorry!

FWIW I never got any "wrong" speeding tickets in that.  I did wonder if I would.

As I mentioned above and have said before, TBH I think the differentials are silly and all motor vehicles should have one set of limits - the van ones - as the safety gain from reducing overtaking on single carriageways is massive.  Odd cases like the A5 in North Wales where there's room for an overtake without conflicting with oncoming traffic could be exceptionally signed up to 60, and limiters deal just fine with lorries and coaches.

Post edited at 11:15
1
 deepsoup 20 May 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I used to have a N1 registered Land Rover Defender which was a DPV

Besides all the complicated rules in the 'Construction and Use' regs about what qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle - size and position of rear windows, seats, ratios of seating area to cargo space etc., there's also a really simple one in a paragraph of it's own: if it's four-wheel-drive it's in!

FWIW I've been driving an unambiguously definitely-a-panel-van van for many years now and have to admit to having spent a lot of time speeding without exceeding the speed limit for a car if you see what I mean, and I've never had a speeding ticket at all.  Relatively good observation skills probably (an essential survival skill on a motorbike), combined with a large dollop of dumb luck.

If speed cameras are getting more discerning these days and using ANPR to automatically cross-reference what it says on the V5, it's probably a good job I've slowed down lately.  (Turns out it's actually a lot less stressful - who knew?   Lesson learned in my case from a spell driving a supermarket delivery van while my regular job went away during the pandemic, I really want a cruise control/adjustable speed limiter on my next vehicle.)

 Neil Williams 20 May 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

I have a limiter and love it, especially for 20s as it's quite hard to drive a powerful modern car manually at that speed unless you leave it in a low gear and rev the nuts off it.

OP Robert Durran 20 May 2022

Thanks everyone for all the advice, even if it put me off my original plan!

It certainly seems to have provoked some discussion.

Anyway, I have just bought a low mileage Peugeot Partner MPV (effectively identical to the Berlingo). Will have to push the passenger seat forward to sleep (can fill the gap from a sleeping platform with rucksacks and so on - they have to go somewhere). A bit of a compromise but allround more economical than something bigger and a bit "stealthier" perhaps for roadside dossing. Hope it will last until electric becomes affordable and practical. Should do the job fine

I

 BruceM 20 May 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

Excellent choice!  You'll have loads of fun.  And no glue required


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