UKC

Car started acting weird a few weeks ago. Very hot metal smell, then temp warning light came on, fan stayed on after the ignition was turned off. Three local garages have basically said the car is kaput and after initially stating its something simple like a dodgy radiator, they've both looked deeper and mentioned the head gasket probably being the cause, and that it might cost a hell of a lot to replace.

So we're basically resigned to trading it in somewhere and replacing it. I just wondered if someone could give me a dummy, boiled down version of what the head gasket is and why it might cause a car to over heat. Zero mechanical knowledge when it comes to cars, and no real interest in them at all to be honest, especially when they break down

Right now I want to go out and do a Basil Fawltey on it. 

In reply to ThunderCat:

Look at your oil filler cap, if it's got a load of creamy coloured gunk on it, sure sign of a blown head gasket. Otherwise, sounds like a clapped out water pump or thermostat. Depending on vehicle, all relatively easy(!) to fix with a decent tool kit and experience. Sadly, in your case, your at the mercy of your local mechanics. Good luck.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Keeps all the good stuff (compression, coolant, oil) where it's supposed to be (in the engine).

Condolences.

In reply to Maggot:

Dealer came back with a 3k bill to fix it, so we went to a recommended local garage who tried changing the pump and radiator, but seems to have realised he might have underestimsted the issue and didnt charge us, which seemed decent.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Main "block" of the engine is made of more than one bit bolted together. The "gaps" between these bits contain a gasket (basically a cutout of the necessary shape) that is compressed when the bolts are tightened and therefore forms a seal.

If this gasket (which in itself is only a few £) deteriorates then the seal is broken and oil can get into the water parts of the engine and visa versa - not good.

Problem is that to replace a head gasket requires a fair bit of work and to really be sure of the new gasket sealing properly, you need to re-machine smooth the surfaces on each side of the "gap".

If the car is not worth much, I would recommend trying something like "Steel Seal" (£40) before committing to a possibly expensive bit of work or junking the car.

Garages can't really recommend these sealants because it's not really possible to guarantee.

In reply to Stichtplate:

I'm just thanking my lucky stars that we've been in a very fortunate position over the last few years to build up a bit of a rainy day war chest for crap like this

In reply to Maggot:

Maybe clarify for TC? not the head gasket though, which is a right bastard.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Turn the heaters on full blast and don't get stuck in traffic jams is the short term solution.
As for longer term, that will depend on age/value of car against cost of replacing the head gasket and where you still run the risk of the engine being knackered if it's been run for a long time with coolants and lubricants not going exactly where they're supposed to...
A quick Google gives some basic advice from the RAC:
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/car-maintenance/head-gasket-guide-why-do...

In reply to Michael Hood:

That's what I understood a gasket to be, but thought the head gasket might have been something different. But basically it's just a gasket... Its just the associated stuff around it that's the actual problem 😂

Always trying to find a positive in any situation, it's forced me to get back on the bike to commute the 35 mile daily round trip to work. Petrol savings and lard expenditure. 

In reply to Michael Hood:

ooo, not heard of that. Any good or a bit of a Hail Mary?

In reply to FactorXXX:

I think we paid 6k for it about 4 years ago. Got offered 1300 part ex for it yesterday. I think we're going with that. 

In reply to Stichtplate:

It's good if you need to get rid of a car with a warped block (only to the 'we buy etc' big guys - would never pull that on an individual.) I'd never use it as a longterm fix. You might need two doses - not cheap. 

In reply to ThunderCat:

Very wise. Head gasket repairs often fail again, especially if the engine has overheated.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Yeah it's name of "head gasket" is th do with its location; its the one between the block ( which is the but the pistons go up and down in ) and the head (which is where the valves are)

In reply to ThunderCat:

I'm no mechanic but having, many years ago, owned a mini and an Austin A35 I am proud of my knowledge of head gaskets.

Admittedly, in those day, such cars were simple machines and, with the benefit of a Haynes Manual, even those of a limited mechanical expertise could carry out a range of maintenance and repair.

Driving home along the M4 one night in the Mini I experienced a drramatic loss of power and managed to pull into Membury services. Initially I suspected dirty plugs and removed them for cleaning. I decided to see what would happen if I turned the engine over - there was a sort of auxiliary starter button under the bonnet. As I pressed it water shot out of the plug holes - confirming a broken head gasket.

As I was pondering my course of action a friendly copper pulled up and asked if all was well. "Any idea where I can get a head gasket from?" I asked half jokingly. I was instructed to get into the police car and was taken over to the other part of the service area where a repair franchisee sold me a set of gaskets.

After being chauffered back to my car I set to effectively strip down the top part of the engine - the rocker box assembly etc - remove and replace the damaged head gasket, reassemble everything and eventuall continue my journey.

All this took place between the hours of about ten o'clock at nignt and one in the morning.

In reply to ThunderCat:

I had to replace the head gasket about 2 years ago. Car was valued around £5k so it was worth it. 

I phoned around massively and had loads of discussions with various mechanics. 

In the end the Toyota main dealer was the best deal at £1100. Bit of a no brainer. I asked them to send me photos of the damage when they repaired it - largely because I was a bit sceptical the job could get done for the money. But they came good and sent photos of the engine in pieces all over the floor.

Car has been brilliant since, better fuel consumption and no problems. 

My advice is - get an exact diagnosis and then do lots of phoning around

In reply to ThunderCat:

What is the car and the engine?

If it didn't get too hot (which it sounds like it did) it may not be warped. The problem with modern cars is there's a huge amount of crap to get off before you can get the head off, they're not really built to be repairable. That said, it's basically just spanner time to get it apart, if you can find a cheap mecanic it is doable. You won't know what's needed until it's apart, could just be a clean up and a new gasket but likely the head will need flattening (skimming). Machining the head will be pretty cheap but cleaning swarf out and rebuilding after needs doing right, not a job for a cowboy.

Reassembly of modern engines often requires special tools to set the cam timing, not all garages have them or are willing to even work out what is needed. 

If you do find a cheap mechanic you could consider an engine swap, salvage engines with ancilliaries drop in pretty quickly so it's probably cheaper than a rebuild. That's the route I'd look at.

Or flog it for repair. 

Jk

In reply to ThunderCat:

If it is the head gasket and you're going to get rid of the car then I would definitely recommend trying Steel Seal. If it works (*) then clean up the engine bay and go to We Buy Any Car where you might get more than £1300.

For £40 it's got to be worth a go.

(*) My feeling about this was that even though it worked when I used it, I had no confidence in how permanent it would be (internet search shows a wide range of "satisfaction") so got rid of the car at WBAC without needing to disclose its history - I would have felt guilty trying to dispose of it privately without disclosure but WBAC deserve whatever they get from their cursory examination of vehicles.

In reply to Maggot:

In my experience there is a less than 50% chance that a failed head gasket will put oil into the water.

In reply to Michael Hood:

What do WBAC do with the cars that they buy?

You don't cause any less grief to some other driver by not selling direct.

In reply to ThunderCat:

It looks like you have already got the definition that you requested in other replies.

Have you been losing water as well as overheating?

A head gasket replacement shouldn't be a major job or too expensive at a decent independent garage. If you have already replaced the radiator and water pump you have already dealt with 2 of the likely causes of failure.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Head gasket went on my Fiat Punto a few years ago. First I noticed was no hot air out of the blowers. Then the engine started over heating. Radiator was empty and any new water put in quickly went out of the back of the car.

Cost £550 to repair at my local garage (in 2017) seemed fine after although I only kept the car for another 6 months as there were quite a few other things wrong with it in the electrics etc

In reply to timjones:

I think some just go to auction (where it really is caveat emptor), presumably others go to various garages/dealers to be sold on. This will (obviously) depend on the age, condition and desirability of each car. The vehicle I sold didn't get it's MOT renewed for 20 months so I think it was just sitting somewhere for over a year - but I sold it a month before Covid so that no doubt affected things.

I disagree, if "some other driver" buys a vehicle from a garage/dealer that's come from WBAC, they will have some sort of guarantee from that garage/dealer. There is a presumption that cars sold from a garage/dealer are in working order; this presumption is not applicable for private sales or auctions.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Auctions can be a lottery but it depends on what the seller declares. When it comes to private sales most decent sellers declare major defects. I cetainly would not be happy to sell a vehicle that wasn't in working order without declaring any major defects.

In reply to timjones:

Agreed - for a private sale I would have detailed everything I knew about the car, what repairs I knew about, etc.

But was the major defect fixed or not? Was the fix going to last 2 months (major defect not properly fixed) or 5 years (major defect fixed - especially since the car was already 10+ years old)? I had merely lost confidence in it giving me trouble free motoring on longer journeys.

Selling to WBAC, I feel no guilt that I didn't disclose it's recent repair history - they didn't ask, I don't even think they bothered starting the car to listen to the engine (which sounded fine). I think WBAC are quite happy to operate under the caveat emptor presumption - they deal with a large enough quantity of vehicles to be able to accurately factor it into their offer prices.

Edit: Going back to the OP's circumstances, if they tried Steel Seal and it fixed the problem, then they might be quite happy to keep the car even knowing that this might not be a permanent fix.

On the subject of WBAC - not that I have used them - I'd be interested to know what they do with the really crappy one that they finish up with. Do they merely sell them as scrap or do they have  a standard below which they will NOT buy?

In reply to Bojo:

Nice post.

Alas we weren't so lucky with our old Astra and spent 18 hrs on the motorway waiting for the RAC to ferry us home (this was after they sent out a repair man who said it was the water pipe changed it and told us we would be okay to carry on - we weren't)

In reply to Michael Hood:

I have certainly used sealants on vehicles that I am keeping, They are a great way of keeping going until you have time to whip the head off and do a proper fix.

I have also been somewhat p'd off when I have discovered that someone else has sold me a vehicle that has been bodged in this way.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

The RAC wound up paying me £280 for the 12 hours that they left me stuck in a car park.

I was almost tempted to offer to do 5 nights a week fpor that pay

In reply to ThunderCat:

As someone else suggested, it could be a stuck thermostat or water pump etc. You should check the oil filler cap for any white mayonnaise looking substance. If you do not see anything, I think a compression test should tell you if the head gasket is still ok. If you find the right garage, they may even test it for free. Many do free estimates. Best of luck

In reply to Acrux:

If a dealer and a decent local mechanic have looked at it they would have checked both of those things.

Thundercat, is it definitely overheating? A van of mine used to overheat and drop in to limp home mode, the garage said it was the head gasket because they had checked the pump and the stat but I wasn't convinced so I didn't let them do the head.

I checked the temperature with a temp probe and it was fine but the dash said it was getting very hot, one new temperature sender later and it was fine. 

In reply to ThunderCat:

Just get shot of it, clean the cap off, fill with thicker oil and or a bit of sawdust, drop a raw egg in the coolant and pass on to any dealer, they'd happily do the same to you. If it is at the age a cylinder head problem is likely then best get rid. 

In reply to Michael Hood:

On the other hand, I've used it and it's knackered the oil pump and bunged up half the engine. I wouldn't recommend it unless it's just to tide you over before you get a new car and take the old one to the scrapyard.

In reply to Dax H:

There was a definite 'wrong' smell about the car when we got out after a two mile drive. I can only describe it as really hot or burning metal / rubber

We got the train yesterday and it struck me how similar that smell was to what was coming out from under the train. Hot, smoky, oily etc.

Any hoo, it's a done deal now. Pick up the new one on Friday, hopefully 👍

In reply to Bojo:

You have been reading the Goucho threads and I claim my £5

@Thundercat - good decision, best of luck with the new motor.

In reply to ThunderCat:

If losing coolant (water), check it's not a blown core plug - they can rust through and fail. Happened to me on a Ford Escort once.

Much cheaper than a gasket replacement, if it is.

In reply to Dax H:

The other answer that is easy to overlook is the cap on the rad or header tank, this can cause real issues whilst being hard to spot if you havn't got the kit to pressure test it.