UKC

Hey all,

My eldest, who isnt particularly academic has gone into work. She's 18 next week and has a regular job. My wife and I are discussing the prospect of her paying board. I dont know her monthly income so cant really set a percentage.

I always paid board as a youngster when i was at home and uni so i come at it from a certain perspective and believe that as a legal adult she should now pay her way, something silly like 20-25 per week. My wife is not so sure.

I would be less persuaded in the board but she actually does little at home. She rarely babysits for us with her sisters and the cleaning if her room/ensuite is random at best. She sometiimes cooks and helps around the home but its random at best.

Dont get me wrong though, she is a lovely girl and far from the stereotypical angst ridden scumbag teenager. Shes just a bit self centred and lazy (as a teenager i wasnt although i know many are).

Straw poll, who would charge (and who has) and who wouldnt?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: absolutely charge her. How else will she ever learn! My daughter cleans her room and does other stuff to help around the house (she's 10)

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I would charge. My sister in law spunged off her parents for years and in the end caused a fair amount of resentment in the family. She didnt really seem to understand the value of money as she kept getting bailed out of her debts. So i reckon starting off by putting a value on her lodgings etc will help her appreciate the cost of living more in the long run.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think charging her is a good idea. I'd also go so far as to suggest charging her something equivalent to how much it would cost her to live away (e.g. in a houseshare), rather than the token £20/week a lot of parents charge. The idea behind this is a) to give her a sense of how much it actually costs to live, and b) for you to put that money aside - you can always hand it to her as a deposit for a place when she does move out.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I reckon £100 a month seem fair

That'd probably just about cover the cost of food for a teenager!

Teaches her about how to manage money/bills have to be paid etc!

Just make sure she doesn't treat your house like a hotel/brings boys/girls back/never tidies up etc!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

They should pay their way as soon as they are earning, nothing in life is free,it's the last life skill you teach as a parent.
Our son was paying £20 pw, this nowhere near covered his costs but it was the principal, we are much better off since he got his own place.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers

Charge her at least some token rent.

If she resists then get an agent in to assess how much a lodger would pay for her room. That may wake her up a bit.
Might wake you up a bit!

If your missus resists then maybe compromise. Charge your daughter the token rent, but keep it separate as an emergency fund to help her out when she seriously needs it or if she needs a deposit when she moves out etc. Don't tell your daughter.

I would have been embarrassed not to have given my parents a % of anything I earned when I lived at home.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I pay my parents £250 a month and chip in with the shopping - I'm more than happy to do so. I'd feel like an absolute sponge if I did not.

However, I'm not doing bar work or minimum wage.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: £440pcm food (within reason), clothes washing and bills except phone included.

In reply to Tall Clare:

+1

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

You need to know how much money she has before you can work anything out, you wouldn't want to leave her short.

And think what her plans are for the future.

Kids can work out the value of money without having it taken off them.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

charge, probably not full board but a reasonable amount.
I paid up when I was at home and expected to as well. Although my parents took the approach Tall Clare mentions and stuck it to one side to offer back as a deposit.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

You're far too soft. I paid £30/week 25 years ago. She should pay and it should be a realistic reflection of the costs incurred IMO-

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Are you doing this because you need the money OR as a way of saying your an adult so you can pay your way.

If its the latter can i suggest you put the 'house keeping' money away for her so she has a bit of a nest egg when she does leave for a house/rent deposit. Happened to a mate and it was hugely appreciated.

In reply to Antigua:

Both really, we are just about to upgrade our home and we will be stretching ourselves so an extra 100pm will be useful.

Also, I saved for her for when she went to uni. Not huge but it amounted to about 3500 which we gave to her when we realised it wasn't for her so she had a little help.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

What does she think? Wouldn't it be better to see if she offered to pay rather than the other way round? It also depends on if you need the money yourself... I'm not sure applying a rather moralistic approach is necessarily a good idea, even less so if she discovered you were discussing your private family life on internet! If she did the same how would you feel?

It looks to me as if you could be heading for trouble, and if the money isn't really a problem why take the risk of creating one? At that age they are sensitive, as you probably know already.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Posts crossed... tricky one, but I really don't think discussing it here is bright. I'd delete the thread, after reading it if I were you

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

im not concerned about that, im anonymous on here and she wouldn't have a clue about ukc. Less so about forums.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
When I was living at home I was told that if I got a job I would have to pay £40 a week rent.
If i didn't get a job my rent would be £80 a week. Quite an incentive to get a job.
In the end I got a job in a bar earning about £120-160 a week and paid up the £40.

Considering this I'd start charging her.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

For me, charging even a little is a good reminder that you should contribute.

Maybe chat about how much she earns. If you're looking to take all her potential savings (which it doesn't seem you are) then I don't reckon that's such a good plan.

But something as a reminder/consideration that in general life there are bills/rent etc to account for sounds good. Also might make her more appreciative of housekeeping - but that may come in time.

So long as you are ok for the money. Ofc if you need more then you best chat to her about it.

Yours,

Someone who is a year away from finishing a Masters and would feel dodge not paying rent if she went back to live at her folks after and had a job - accepting that I'm a good few years older than your daughter. I think it's a matter of respect and thoughtfulness.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I'd charge I think, I guess if it was me I'd sit down and have an amicable chat about how everything costs and that you have to pay out each month, and you'd appreciate it if she could contribute, and how it seems like the fair or reasonable thing to do.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

im 21 and i still live at home for the moment but every since i was 17 and got my first job i have paid £40 a week on dig money, i have always thought this fair as it goes towards rent, food, gas, electric, TV, Broadband etc when compaired to living in my own flate even shared £160 a month wouldnt get you anywhere.
it also teaches you the value of money, managing money (remembering to pay and keeping stuff for bills like mobile etc) and it also adds a more realistic view on things when you move out etc, i would say if anything it is beneficial!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I dont have kids but my parents only charged me a token amount £20 a week in the early 90s and as a result I stayed there till my mid 20s just because it freed up a lot of playing money.
My last apprentice was charged 1/3rd of his wage and my current one pays 1 weeks wage a month.

In reply to Dax H: The lad on 1/3rd still pays 1/3rd of his current wage now that he is out of his time and on a full man's money.

Assuming you want her to move out : charge her a fair amount for food/bills ( bank it if you don't need it). If she's saving by herself then nothing more, if she would only spend it, then charge a little more and save that to give her as a deposit.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: If this regular job is a decent salery then charge her a decent rent. Then tell her what jobs can be done around the house to lower the rent. Her choice, if she wants to be lazy at home then she has to pay for the priveledge.

A little warning, not charging could get you into serious problems both with your relationship with your daughter and the inability to get her out of the house even 20 years from now. Just remember her living at home is getting her used to a certain standard of living in her adult life and if it costs her nothing she could well not be able to finance that standard of living by herself therefore she could well just enjoy that standard of living and stay at home.....FOREVER!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I would, even if it's a nominal amount. You are, after all, just preparing her for life in the outside world.

When I was living at home and earning IIRC I paid £150 p/m out of the £600 I earnt!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Well, dont think I have ever seen a UKC with a unanimous response.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

-1



They'll soon be gone, we haven't asked ours to pay board and lodgings while they are with us.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I would do what my parents did. Definitely charge but come to some agreement somewhere between a pi$$take (i.e. <£100 per month) and market rate (in Sheffield, for a single room, probably around £300-£400 per month).

If you can afford it, putting the money away and then offering some or all of it as help towards a deposit when she comes to buy a house is a nice thing. My parents loaned my a few grand when I bought my house and then wrote the last 1/3 of it off after a 2/3 of it had been repaid to them. I'd like to do something similar for mine if I can afford it.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I agree with the idea of treating her like an adult and involving her in the decision. Why not show her some of the bills, how much you are paying out on electric, mortgage, food, council tax, insurance, tv licence etc....

There are probably some things that she doesn't even realise cost money, such as council tax.

Ask her what she thinks would be a good system for everyone to contribute fairly, including things like doing the shopping, doing the cooking and cleaning. Ask her what her friends do...

I think that often, too much telling happens and not enough asking. She probably has got her own ideas about the whole thing.

Leaving her to not pay is simply creating a situation where she is kept as a dependent child in the house and will make life so much harder for her in the long run. How will she ever be able to have an adult opinion about any decisions made in the house? How would she ever have any chance of moving out? It's keeping her in a baby role (maybe something that is quite hard to let go of, deep down) rather than treating her as an independent adult.

I lived with my dad at 17, and got no money at all from him for anything, clothes, school dinners, etc. He didn't buy much food either and I was always hungry! I used to take £5 per week off him to make sure that he would have enough money to pay the bills. When I started working, at 18, I said he could pay the rent, I would buy the food and we could split all the bills 50:50. That way, I knew there would be plenty of food, and I felt it was fair and reasonable.

I don't think that approach is for everyone - it's quite a shock to go from everything being paid for for you to making a contribution, but just to show that young adults are quite capable of acting like adults if they are given half a chance and some responsibility (with the associated consequences).

Oh - and the young people who I work with who tend to cope best are the ones who are given respect and responsibility and power by their parents. The ones who are babied tend to struggle and fail. They just aren't used to running their own lives.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

parasites

In reply to ice.solo:

I don't think many species of animal consider their own offspring to be parasites.

In reply to tlm:

How did your dad manage when you left?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
The rule in our house was you lived for free when in fulltime ed or training as mum wanted to encourage that.

After that it varied from 100 - 250 pcm depending on my wage. Considering this when I moved back recently for a couple of months before travelling after living alone for 8 years I had to argue to pay rent. Probably shows it was more about the learning than the money.

In reply to Dax H:

I paid 1/3 regardless of what I earned - from £15 a day on my saturday job aged 16, to whatever crap wage I got in a warehouse aged 21. Also had to help out with washing up, laundry etc, the 1/3 didn't entitle me to full maid service.

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Oh he was fine. He never used to eat much anyway - he lived off beer mostly! He never cleaned his house at all, and was happy as long as he could get to the pub twice a day.... He died of emphysema in the end...

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

5 years ago I was paying £120 a month to live at home plus £100 a month to pay back what I borrowed when I lived away at Uni.

I earnt about £12,000 a year at the time. I cleaned my room and hovered the house. I sometimes cooked but I was often out working between jobs - my job was fairly tedious and my incentive was to move into my own space. I had my own banger and scraped together enough to fuel it for adventures in the hills and be legal.

On the other hand my cousins have been living at home for 2 years having quit their jobs "because their job was boring" and my Aunty and uncle fund their car, their social life, their holidays etc. They do bugger all and have no incentive to leave because their life is cushy.

If you push the rent up too steep you'll be left with an empty room, a daughter who thinks her parents just want money from her and she'll go else where. 2 years ago I was paying £300 for a double room and all bills in a house share.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Additionally my parents had a rule that if I didn't have to pay rent if I was in full time education.

For the 3 months I lived at home without a job, dad kept a spreadsheet of everything he'd lent me which I didn't resent (I paid him back when I got a job) and meant I spent very little - often just borrowing £30 so I could get a train to the lakes, sleep on a friends floor and eat whatever was spare.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I charged my kids bout 2/3 of the market rate for a room once they were working.

When they moved out they got it all back, an unexpected surprise that paid towards deposit and furniture

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

If the issue is that your wife doesn't want to charge your daughter board - maybe come to an agreement - that you will charge her £25/week board but treat it as a secret "savings" account for your daughter - you split it (1/2 to pay her food and some bill contribution, 1/2 as savings) so you can give it to her as a deposit on her first house or for furniture when she moves out else where?

She needs to learn about budgeting and managing rent, but if you don't feel comfortable with charging your child rent - this is a possible solution (and one the wife might see value in too?)

J

In reply to UrbanRocker:

Balls -- just saw your post! I expressed the same sentiment.

J

In reply to UrbanRocker:

I *really* like that idea.

Neil

In reply to Axel Smeets:

Yeah, I'd agree with this. You're trying to help and encourage her to become independent, not punish her or milk her for cash, and this seems like a nice way of doing it.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

When I was working fulltime and living at home I paid something like £200/month from a wage of £800. Seemed pretty reasonable to me. That covered bills/food/etc but not my own subscriptions (mobile, mmorpg subscriptions, i had my own internet line for downloading, etc).

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think there is no standard answer or magic solution for this one. I remember having to argue with my parents at one stage to get them to take money from me. As suggested above, there is a range of £100 to £400 per month that might be considered depending upon the circumstances of the parties involved. I would not call £100 per month a p155-take though. In the circumstances of some apprentice and intern pay schemes that starts looking much more like real money.

If you and your wife cannot agree, then charge your daughter a realistic rate and put half of it a savings account or premium bonds but don't tell her.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

When your kids are young you look after them because you have income and they don't. Once they become adult and start earning they need to learn to pull their weight and pay their way. It's all part of the transition from childhood to adulthood. Teaching them anything else does them no favours. If you can afford to stash the money in a 'house fund' for them terrific but the important life lesson is that they learn to handle and understand their finances.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
When I turned 18 I paid £150 a month to live with my parents. Then when I started earning abit more I paid £200 or something a month. Upping the payments was my idea not theres.
I also paid for my own mobile phone contract.

Letting them off if they are short is not good for them as they will then try it on.

Its a good introduction to paying rent and wont come as much of a shock.

If you dont charge enough she will stay for too long and not start her life properly. I have had mates paying £10 a month for best part of a decade.

In reply to grubes: I guess as a parent the difficult balance is between teaching good money management and not becoming part of the reason they then stay with you?

When I started working I paid about 25% of my take home which seemed reasonable to me and I knew fine well was way less than even a room in a shared flat plus living costs would be. Later in life I returned as an on paper better off individual but with a lot of bagage to deal with after a split up etc and at that stage parents didn't charge me anything, I sorted myself and got out again as soon as I sensibly could.

When I first moved out as a young un, my dad gave me the sum total of rent I'd paid over the last couple of years as a starter in my new life - total surprise to me and a big help.

So - while taking cash is good to teach value and budgeting etc, on relatively low wages even taking a quarter or a couple of hundred a month may be taking what would otherwise have been saved towards deposit/costs of equiping first room/bedsit or whatever.... a possible compromise is to impose the levy and actually let the child know you are effectively 'helping' them save.... that way they know there is a nest building up and they can plan better for what they can afford/when they can move out and become independent. If some diligent wee soul is saving hard for deposit and isn't aware parents are doing likewise the end goal may just look painfully far away.

OP - Sorry, this ramble doesn't really help out vs the fact you could do with the extra income yourself and in your case I'd say that the family (you guys) come first and charging a reasonable contribution to (probably only some of) the costs of keepng a wage earning child in the house and using it to reduce your own outgoings is perfectly fair. If things change you can reduce what they pay or start saving it for their benefit but that depends on your finances in future more than it does how good the child is looking like being about becoming financially independent and moving on themselves. I'd also say that I'd hope a child would be comfortable talking about their finances and plans (broady speaking) and that you will be told what they earn/what that translates into as take home pay! You don't need to know everything but I'd like to hope young Ferrets will come home from their first job bursting with pride and excitement about their new salary and I'll help guide them towards what (little!) it will actually be in reality once tax and NI come off, once their commute is paid for and all the other costs of actually working kick in. Then I'll buy them a pint/fizz to cheer them up again!!

In reply to Ferret:

All for charging rent - but you need to consider what happens if she starts missing payments.

Prepared to kick her out? What sanctions can you put on a teenager?

In reply to Neil Williams:

Just seems manipulative to me.

Do the right thing and tell them what's happening, it's a bit cutesy to say we didn't tell them but we gave them the money back.

Same with the It'll learn 'em mentality.

If you want to teach them the value of money do it properly, not by just taking some off them!

In reply to winhill:

At the very least I would expect them to cover their share of the average weekly food bill, and to do their share of the household chores. This is what my parents expected when I left uni, and at 21 it sounded entirely fair that now I was no longer in education my parents shouldn't be out of pocket by having me still at home.

That said, whilst I agree with encouraging kids to appreciate the value of money I am uncomfortable with turning your kids into lodgers and assuming your finances can cover household bills, why not give your kids a bit of help with cheap rent? I would say that it's only if they are taking the piss and using the place like a hotel, or at 25 look like they will never move out that you need to consider making home less financially attractive.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Presumably if you're charging rent then you have to declare this as taxable income on your tax return? I think the rent-a-Room scheme allows you about £4250/year tax free, but more than that and you'll have to pay tax on it.

In reply to Ferret: an interesting point. I save in a junior ISA for my kids. Have done since their births. I plan to put the maximum away for them (as long as I can). They can access the money once they are 18. But do we tell them? Or do we keep it a secret and give it to them at a stage in their life when they really need it like a deposit on a house/flat ?

I'm sure the decision will be easier when they are approaching their 18 bd's

In reply to owlart:

The OP suggests around £25 per week. I'll leave the arithmetic to you. Would it still need to be declared if below threshold?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

No, you don't need to declare it if under the threshold above.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams: Fair enough, if you don't need to declare it as income it's not a problem. Presumably you'd need to keep some sort of formal records though (Rent Book?), should the tax man decide to investigate?

In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús: yeh - I have one of those child trusts for sprog one and don't plan on putting much in it as it is legally his at 16 I think. Most saving for him and sprog 2 will simply be using my and my wifes ISA allowances which we don't have capacity to use for ourselves at present... that way it is household saving that can be parceled out as required, when required by us. I suspect the kids will be sensible but I wouldn't want to not have some kind of say in what happnes to cash in 15 years plus time.... bombing out of school and travelling the world with some waster partner in tow on my savings? no way..... A sensible gap year partly funded from savings with plenty left for flat/uni whatever on return, yes probably....

In reply to owlart: In principle yes.... but tax man is really not bothered what goes on within families in a small way. And rent a room does not cover bed and board - its designed where you rent a room to a stranger for income, not where you rent to family and use that rent to pay the food bill - if it was, the childs food/lighting/heating costs etc would be deductible and the taxable gain would be on whatever the annual 'profit' is - probably nothing once cost of food and everything taken off.

Plus it is possibl to give any amount of money tax free to a family member if it is coming from income so child paying £200 per month to parents out of income is not taxed... if child was a multimillionaire and was giving parents £10,000 per month from their capital that technically is taxable.

Work out what it costs to run your home for a month. Divide that by the number of people in the house. That is the amount she should be paying.

I am betting that she will complain about the amount. So then sit down with a budget sheet each & work out what it would cost her to live in her own place.

Compare budget sheets. Kids normally miss off loads of stuff.

They wont really appreciate what they have or how little it costs till they have moved out & tried to do it on their own. When (and it will be when not if) they move back in they will be more amenable to paying a sensible amount.

In reply to Richard Wilson:

this.

just for the exercise too, while youre at it, throw in the costs of raising a kid on top.
hit that bird with the same stone a sit were.

In reply to ice.solo:


what.

In reply to aln:

dunno

In reply to ice.solo: cool?

In reply to aln:

could be

In reply to ice.solo: I have more but I should stop before I start looking like an old guy trying to look cool.

In reply to aln:

i was thinking along the lines of this

youtube.com/watch?v=7w_ep-m4rxI&

which may make me the old guy.

In reply to ice.solo:

Jeez I'm old enough for that but glad to say I don't know it. What show is that?

In reply to aln:

welcome back kotter!

innovative for its time. the theme song you may know.

In reply to ice.solo:

American show? Don't think we got that particularly brilliant example of Travolta's early talent here in Scotland.

In reply to ice.solo: googled it. Don't know the show or the theme song

In reply to aln:

just a relic of a by-gone era now, but significant for its time how it portrayed the way inner city cultures mixed and saw each other. the teacher too was a bit of an icon of the way education was changing. dealt with things like inner city enclavism, racial and economic stereotyping, crime, single parents etc.

clunky and tame by todays standards, but for an era spoon-fed the synthetic silliness of gilligans island and leave it to beaver it was part of a larger shift.

In reply to ice.solo: Nah we didnae get it here. Sounds good though for the times. Anything like Taxi?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

50 quid a week minimum soft lad. Even if you she's on mimimum wage thats an awesome deal. Otherwise she may never leave.

D

In reply to aln:

apparently like taxi, but didnt get that myself. will check it out.

In reply to ice.solo: you don't know taxi? Are you Canadian?

In reply to aln:

Are you Canadian?

close enough

In reply to ice.solo: are you Canadian?
close enough

Possibly my all time favourite internet exchange.
I love it!

In reply to Tall Clare:

That's virtually exactly my take on it

In reply to owlart:

Why? It isn't income. It is a family member paying for a portion (not all) of their own share of the costs of running the home. The amounts discussed won't even cover the cost of the food that they eat.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Personally, I would charge something. If my 7 yr old hadn't already lost his pocket money for the next 12 months (started earning it 2 weeks ago on his 7th birthday, lost it until he is 8 for getting stuck after climbing onto the roof...!!!), I would be taking a small portion of it, just to show that, eventually, it will become something substantial....

My parents never took money off me as a student, and didn't take any of me when I graduated as I was then saving up for a deposit for somewhere to live so I never really had a freeloading period.

Encourage her to save for a mortgage deposit or something else into a savers account, or charge board and then put it in a savings account yourself for her.

In reply to RICHIE HERRING: Is the fine related to climbing onto the roof or the getting stuck bit?

In reply to tlm:
>. The amounts discussed won't even cover the cost of the food that they eat.

Ever lived with hungry teenagers?

In reply to Milesy:

Your definition of free-loading seems to be different from mine.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

should your other daughter/s go to uni will they be expected to pay their own way, as well as board whilst at home ?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:i guess if shes earning a decent wage she should pay something..my lad doesn't earn much so I don't charge him.mind you im a soft touch!#

In reply to Jim Hamilton:

They will have to get a job and pay their own way and we would be here to support in case they met hard times. I also have savings plans for them separately to give them a start at uni as i did with my eldest but she didnt go we just gave it to her when this was decided.

In reply to aln:


Only when I was one. My mate used to buy loads of loaves of 9p bread and loads of cans of 7p beans and tell his 2 boys to eat as much as they wanted.... His house had a certain pungency.

In reply to Tall Clare:
Yes, that sounds like a good idea! I hope I can afford that generosity when my boys are that age!

In reply to Milesy:

Living with your parents FOC sounds an awful lot like freeloading to me