UKC

Having read as much of the science as I can, this seems to me an entirely rational, insufficiently proportionate and tardy response to climate breakdown albeit in the right direction.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47935416

What will it take for people and governments to wake up to the existential crisis we face? Do you support these protestors and this non violent civil disobedience?

In reply to Jimbo W:

Non violent?

Yer, right...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/15/extinction-rebellion-activists-...

In reply to Oceanrower:

A deliberate ploy, apparently, to cause more than £5,000 worth of damage to ensure that they can elect Crown Court trial (damage under £5K being triable summarily only)

In reply to Oceanrower:

As I understand it, the action is supposed to be non violent - which I do support. Though it evokes strong emotions when you realise that these corporations did their own research, realised the potential implications of fossil fuel emissions for the environment and billions of human lives, and then ignored it in the pursuit of profit.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Just leave them there, give them free food and water,  then hope those that chained themselves together wore nappies. Nature will take it's course. 

It's seems a waste of their precious annual holidays away from work, but their choice. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

Support. If your house is on fire, you don't whinge that the fire brigade are getting water on the carpet.

In reply to summo:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/15/rebellion-prevent-eco...

In reply to Jimbo W:

I wholly support them, just because currently we're going to 'inaction ourselves'* into catastrophe if we don't act, I think anything none violent to make us sit up and think more deeply is good.

*Apologies to Gordon for my mangling of English.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Amongst their "demands"

Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025.

Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.

  If these are achieved what do you think the outcome will be for UK citizens?

In reply to Timmd:

It's all very sweet and well meaning but it will just cost the tax payers money.

If they want to change the world, they should study hard and bring change through science and innovation.

The current political stock won't change, politicians rarely change stance on fairly entrenched views. 

There will be no shortage of elections in the UK in the next 5 years, they shod be the new political generation. Change through leadership, not tantrums on the street. 

In reply to Postmanpat:

It probably sounded great in the university debating society before they broke up for easter, when you don't have to plan how to make it happen. I'm wondering where they all parked their bikes, I'd hate to think there was any hypocrisy going on. 

In reply to summo:

Which is something many tax payers see as a part of democracy, the right to protest and any related costs. Any of the ones I personally know do, at least.

That's rather the problem, the science and innovation is (fairly arguably) already available, but it's not being implemented.

I see it all as being a part of the mix of democracy and a free society, 'public tantrums' as well as who we vote into power. The right to protest is enshrined in the UN Declaration Of Human Rights as it happens.

In reply to Timmd:

Including damage of private property?

Won't be cheap, will cost everyone more in tax. Have the protesters costed this?  

Protest without  violence or damage. Yes. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

I understand and sympathise with them but...

In fact the UK is far ahead of many, possibly most, countries in the world in tackling climate change. I'd be more heartened by roadblocks around the centres of Beijing, Delhi, Moscow and Washington.

The demands PP has posted above are clearly ludicrous and without merit but we, the entire world should moving faster than it is and I share their concerns but not to the point of sitting in the road to bugger up the commute home for many Londoners many of whom would probably sympathise with them.

In reply to Jimbo W:

New generations have to live with the horrific consequences of our destruction of the environment and wildlife so why should they not be out making some noise  I'm proud of them. 

In reply to summo:

''That's rather the problem, the science and innovation is (fairly arguably) already available, but it's not being implemented.''

Government 'think tanks' from the US in the Obama era costed inaction on climate change as being more expensive than steps needed to combat it, with inaction being a greater risk to national security than terrorism, I'd be fairly surprised if the same didn't apply to the UK - I'm sure the same has been said for Europe too, but the exact details escape me. AFAIK climate change is already being used a reason for people to 'feel pissed off at the West' in Africa, towards radicalising people into being terrorists. Unfortunately we can't escape from how everything is interconnected.

Coolio, we're agreed on that.

In reply to Timmd:

I'm sure that is correct  in the long run it will be far cheaper to deal with the problem now rather than deal with the consequences later but the key word there is later. 

Dealing with it today will hammer my budget so let's make some noise but ultimately leave it for the next guy to pay for. On top of that telling people today that they need to give up their cars and break the dependance on fossil fuel.

At some point there will be an election but who is going to vote for the party that put fuel prices through the roof, stopped me driving anywhere without a clean air tax, priced me out of holidays abroad, lead to the factories near me closing down because they didn't have the money to invest in green energy. 

Climate change is a massive problem but until the South East starts to flood it will always be tomorrow's problem

In reply to Jimbo W:

A few protesters causing a bit of a traffic jam and a couple of broken windows seems pretty minor when compared to this 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-47914210/what-does-the-world-s-lar...

I wish the protesters well though

In reply to Removed User:

China is the biggest total emitter, less so per capita, but subtract western productive outsourcing and indeed productivity directed to western consumption, we let ourselves off the hook far too easily. Meanwhile chinese solar panel production has rendered them globally accessible even without incentives - why not price that carbon balance in in China's favour? And with India, Chinese reforestation efforts are responsible for the residual global balance that remains in favour of greening despite rainforest deforestation.

The UK, meanwhile is doing relatively ok on CO2, but with the big recent global uptick in methane emissions at least not in insignificant part due to uncoventional fossil fuel extraction (fracking), I'm not so impressed, I think we pat ourselves on the back far too easily. Furthermore, the UK was recently reported to be the worst in Europe on financial support for fossil fuels, and yet challenging the corporate stranglehold on global politics is where leadership from a country like the UK is so despararely needed. Instead, the UK, like the SNP are happy to count only what we burn, and not what we extract and sell others to burn, and carry on with polcies supportive of extraction. That's not leadership.

I think the UK has a long way to go. I get why people think relativism is where its at, but its just another version of "they aren't doing anything so why should we", which operates on the individual and country levels. Yet $3trillion of fossil fuel divestment started with a few motivated individuals. Individual action is provocative and can lead to systemic effects. Yet many, such is our media, have barely a scoobie how precarious the situation is, if it isn't too late. Furthermore, change has to start with market distorting state action disincentivising climate destructive fossil fuels (in a way which cannot just be absorbed as the price of doing business), heavily incentivising the best evidenced alternatives we have and supporting the spinout of new technology in these areas, which speaking as a doctor, I believe on health grounds are a priority. This has to mean robust systemic carbon pricing with redistribution of the dividends to the people and the alternatives.

The ambition only looks ludicrous because, while it is infact pretty consistent with a 1.5°c target, we haven't factored in the societal breakdown we have created with the loan that paid for yesterday and today. Once that environmental debt is called in (which at current CO2 levels involved deciduous trees in Antarctica, a much hotter temperate north, and a commensurately uninhabitable tropics), it won't look nearly so ludicrous. And yet we aren't stopping here!

In reply to Dax H:

Pretty much nails it. There's 1 other thing: the nation that goes carbon 0 first will put themselves at a temporary but considerable disadvantage*, which is why no one wants to be first, they're all hanging on hoping someone else blinks first.

*although it might well be better in the long term.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

In terms of technological delivery a country that does goes to a zero carbon balance first could be in prime position to sell to everyone else.

In reply to summo:

You live in a country with better public transport than the UK, better cycling infrastructure than the UK, better insulated more efficient building than the UK, greener electricity, more ambitious targets for future power generation, scooter hire schemes, and such a positive recycling culture that you have to import foreign combustible waste to keep your power plants going. 

New science isn’t the key here, it’s political will and integrated planning. You live in a country that proves it. 

In reply to summo:

The same bollocks was said 50 years ago, and it was still rubbish then. We cannot science our way out of this mess - we need to fundamentally (and now rapidly) change the way that society works from being focused on endless growth to being sustainable. There are already hundreds of thousands of scientists around the globe, saying we need to change our consumption habits - and nothing has happened - emissions have only got worse.

In reply to stevieb:

Yes and it didn't come about through people blocking transport and damaging corporations buildings. But because it's what a majority of people desire. They are willing to sacrifice the time to cycle, walk, recycle etc.. they elect politicians who follow their views and generally don't promise the world off ever decreasing tax take etc. Culturally and mentally sweden and UK are vastly different in this respect.

Science does have the answer, but half the UK probably doesn't even believe the science that climate change is real. 

Have their protest by all means, but the big companies like shell etc will probably just give their staff an extended Easter holiday. The problem I have is these people aren't environmentalists they are anti capitalists and it's just another excuse to damage property.  

In reply to SenzuBean:

By science I was thinking more of fusion, molecular construction, or more advanced re cycling as a lot of waste is still burnt, we just use better filter systems to capture the crap in chimneys. 

But I will agree in part. So maybe the targets should be the companies that offer to sell you everything instantly and the population in general that buys it. 

What happens in the UK and London won't change anything, it's global. There are several billion in Asia who desperately want to get their living standards up to what the UK already enjoys. How many politicians even give a passing thought to Gretas speech. 

China, India, USA etc are not going to change individually, trump will get another term. Nothing will change until water levels are lapping at their ankles, by then Bangladesh will be under water. 

Even locally, German, Italy etc  brink of recession, they can only save their economy and precious euro by more spending. Their governments don't care how, be it debt driven or materialistic crap. They just got to get those figures up. Time to trade in that perfectly functional 5yr old Audi and spend another £40k on a new one etc.. 

It's pessimism, but all the more sensible countries can do is ready themselves to feed, water and house an awful lot more people in the next century. That and war. 

In reply to stevieb:

It's not driven by politicians, but their population. 

The people who are causing the problems in the UK are the 70million. If they shopped, travelled, voted consciously then change would be quick. New policies etc. Would reflect their views. 

Shouting at shell that they are evil won't help, if 5 million people pull into their petrol stations and tank up a car whose engine is arguably twice as large as it needs to be, but they deliberately bought it anyway, so they can drive their 2 miles to work in style. 

In reply to summo:

Science and innovation is what got us here in the first place. 

In reply to XXXX:

But also what took us away from steam and diesel trains, coal house fires, lead in paint and petrol, landfill etc.. 

In reply to Oceanrower:

I walked through the demonstrations outside Parliament and at Piccadilly Circus yesterday, and what I saw was completely peaceful direct action. On foot it was still easy to get where you needed to go, and indeed much nicer than normal due to the closing of the roads to motor vehicles. I was with my kids, including my baby who was asleep in the papoose for a chunk of the day - so the lack of traffic was a pleasant surprise.

In reply to summo:

I guess the idea that the answer to the problems of technology is more technology is a compelling one.

In reply to Jimbo W:

I think the protestors are just desperate to get across the message that we’ve got only got 12, no 11 now, years to enact the changes necessary to limit global warming to 1.5 degrees. 

The consequences of inaction on this issue, or really the consequences of a lack of dramatic change, are likely to be so catastrophic that shutting down the centre of London for a few days is, to say the least, something of a minor inconvenience in comparison.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Ironically,the nottingham protest blocked the main bus routes into and out of thecity,so i  was stuck on a (biogas) bus for a while. All very good natured andthey were letting the traffic move. Probably a necessary event, but as to if they changed any minds.....

In reply to MeMeMe:

It's realistically too late already and they are lobbying the wrong people in the wrong country. There should have been a coordinated global effort and lobby all politicians and those promoting consumerism in every country, on the same day. Steal the headlines globally. The Uk's little protest will be lost on page 5 in every other country in the world. 

I agree. But shutting down London for a month won't change the habits of 70m people in the UK or 3-4billion in Asia. 

In reply to XXXX:

We can't go back 5000 years (bare a massive meteorite) , so we are where we are. The only way is forwards. 

In reply to summo:

It is global action.

In reply to XXXX:

I've seen nothing of the protests in China or India? 

That's 4 times the population of Europe in just two countries. 

In reply to summo:

You can only change what you have the power to change. The people protesting are doing the best they can with what they have, what's the alternative? To do nothing?

Like Ghandi said (or maybe not, who knows with these quotes) "Be the change you wish to see in the world". If we can't make the necessary changes then how can we expect anyone else to.

In reply to summo:

Great. Well no point doing it anywhere if they can't everyone doing it?

In reply to MeMeMe:

I agree, protesting at Shell Hq won't change the shopping and driving habits of anyone in the UK. 

Biggest recent change in UK? Planet Earth, reaching the whole population. Showing cause and effect of our actions. Educating and then highlighting a solution people can follow. 

In reply to summo:

What does forwards mean? 

Technology doesn't exist as an impartial saviour of the world. It can help us, but only if we have the social, political and cultural will.

In reply to summo:

Yes, the UK has a problem with fatalism, too many people feel they haven't got the power to change things or that it's not their job to change things. Sweden may be in a better place due to less class division, more local democracy, more representative democracy, more equal society, a smaller population, national service, protestant work ethic or whatever.

But it seems strange to then criticise people who do appear to be trying to make a difference. Annoying people on their way to work is probably not the best way to do this, but surely we should be encouraging people who want to make a difference.

In reply to summo:

I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm sure lots of people said smashing windows or throwing yourself in front of the King's horse won't get you the vote. I don't really understand the ways of influencing power but I don't see that you do either despite you being very certain of yourself.

Planet Earth was great but I think we might have to throw everything we've got at this to get change and not everyone has the BBC natural history department and a incredibly highly regarded nonagenarian TV presenter to bring to the party.

As I say people are desperate and doing what they can with the resources they have. What would you have them do? Sit on their hands and wait for somebody else to fix everything?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Laudable but impossible. Still, all our great achievements were impossible once upon a time.

Surely that's the point of asking a citizens' assembly to decide. We might decide to live out another few generations before we need to thin population and turn the island into a fortress to keep out climate refugees. We might decide to reshape our economy, re-prioritise sustainability and ecosystem repair over GDP, thrive rather than survive a while longer. Either way, they know change is hard so we have to choose it.

jk

In reply to summo:

Do you realise quite how much of a bellend you sound today?

jk

In reply to summo:

India is projected to meet their green electricity target 8 years before the 2030 deadline, they are meeting their Copenhagen commitments and they are closer to their commitments from the Paris Accord than the US, EU or many other countries.

India's CO2 emissions per capita are 1/4 of the UK and 1/10 of the USA. Seems a bit harsh to single out India for blame.

In reply to jkarran:

I repeat.What do you think the outcome would be for UK residents if this were achieved?

   Why do you think a citizens' assembly (which would appointed by ballot, as I understand it) would be qualified to make the best choice?

In reply to stevieb:

Also, to be fair, if there were any protests in India it's unlikely our UK/Europe/US-centric media would consider them worthy of showing

In reply to SenzuBean:

Science definitely has a role.

Carbon Engineering announced a prototype brute force technology that can extract 365 tonnes of CO2 a year. They say that a plant scale development will be able to extract 60,000 tonnes a year. At that level, you would need 100,000 such plants to equalise current global CO2 emissions. By comparison, there are approx 60,000 power plants globally. That is a not an impossible task, but shows such tech could definitely have an impact, but what's missing are the economics. They recently announced a $68million investment, but that's from fossil fuel corporations interested in their fuel production technology, and without state support, the concern is that these avenues will be shut down. What's missing is globally relevant robust carbon pricing (with redistribution of the dividends) that will drive the expansion of the sector.

Reading the literature, there is a huge amount happening on Carbon fixation technology, from algae to nanotechnology. Some of this already looks viable, and while the amount of research is dwarfed by cancer research (absurd), what's actually missing is the economic underpinning: both the investment in R&D, but particularly the carbon pricing that incentivises the spin-outs we so badly need. Similar scientific advances are evident in battery technology, particularly metal-air (zinc air) based batteries, but again, much greater incentives are still needed even though battery technology is doing reasonably well.

Biochar is another technology that needs incentivised. This is making charcoal from fast growing biomass. The charcoal, production in a largely self sustaining reaction, can then be used as a stable soil amendment in farming that fixes that carbon, but can also help to mitigate soil erosion, encourage nutrient retention, reducing the amount of fertilisers required, and reduce run-off and eutrophication. The science shows that this must be tailored to the right soils and crop preferences, but farmers are already using satellite tech to dictate the specifics of chemical applications and crop selection. Some of this is already happening, but not at scale, and for that, incentives are required. Carbon pricing would help, but also manipulation of e.g. the CAP in Europe.

Even in areas that are no brainers, science is still required. Reforestation may seem like good sense, and it is, but we again need the economic incentives we don't have. But reforestation needs science. For example, the English oak is not likely to grow in the conditions the UK is developing. That's a problem, because in the UK, the oak is the pinnacle of biodiversity supporting more insect species than any other under its canopy. So we have to use other trees that are less supportive of biodiversity. Which one's will survive AND support the biodiversity we need? The science is there to guide us, but be under no illusions we can't just put nature back, this will involve engineering. Research also shows that switching from conventional farming to agroforestry, can help improve yields (especially in a warming climate), stabilise soils and help fix carbon.

My point is that we have no choice to science our way out of this, and a big part of that equation is the currently insufficient economic incentives to make that happen. None of which takes away from your point that global consumption must by radically curbed, which is also absolutely necessary.

In reply to Postmanpat:

It would depend entirely how it were achieved. I can't think of a way that isn't extremely disruptive, frankly most just involve genocide but this is the scale of the problem we face. We need greater minds than mine to deliver acceptable solutions (which to be clear genocide isn't) and faster than we typically decide to build a new roundabout. Or we need to find a way to expand that time frame without failing in the ultimate objective, realistically this is where today's most urgent work lies.

You provide the technical education and support required for them to make informed choices coloured by their personal experiences and circumstances. They don't necessarily make the best choice, best is subjective anyway, we broadly already know what is technically necessary but the idea is they make a good, informed choice the population can and will live with. As I said, we may decide to forego the disruption and leave our grandchildren to figure out how to simultaneously deal with societal collapse and migratory flows in the billions. I always thought it'd be a MAD miscalculation that ended mankind's run of civilisation, I think that now has stiff competition.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

  But you think we should be demonstrating in the streets to promote this genocide?

   So, you trust ordinary randomly chosen people to listen to the right advice and vote accordingly?

In reply to Jimbo W:

Climate change is a problem that human psychology is set up to ignore. It's happening gradually, its invisible and it's so vast in scale and severity that its tempting to downplay, deny, shift blame. Imagine that in the 1970s we'd worked out that an extinction-sized meteor would hit Earth around the year 2050. Humanity would have united and by now we'd have invented warp speed AI robots to go and blow it up. We'd be patting ourselves on the back for a job well done. Climate change is no less grave a threat but some people are still pretending it doesn't exist, or blaming others.

Human civilisation is based on agriculture and by the end of the century, crops will be 50% less productive. There will be global food shortages. We are undoing civilisation itself. 

2°C warmer used to be the unthinkable upper limit, now it's our target. The last time it was 4°C warmer there were palm trees in the arctic. 8°C warmer is a hellscape, clouds will not be able to form. We are currently on track for 4.1°C to 4.8°C warmer.

Earth has lost half its wildlife in the last 40 years.

7 million people die from air pollution every year. That's a WW2 sized holocaust happened every single year but because its caused by negligence rather than on purpose we shrug our shoulders.

This is the only project for life we know of in the universe and this is what we are doing to it. 

So if you dont agree with people protesting in a desperate, overdue attempt to stop this from happening, please have a think about what we're up against. 

In reply to Postmanpat:

Oh FFS! I explicitly stated that I am not proposing genocide, not because in any sane or reasonable discussion it should be necessary but because I expected exactly this stupid shit from you! Give over.

Yes I think people are right to protest.

I don't have a problem with the concept of broadly educating and supporting a capable cross section of our community to make complex decisions in the interest of the wider community. Frankly this is what our parliament should be doing but can't for a number of reasons (adversarial design, selection for ambition/loyalty/political acumen over technical expertise, vested interests, and non representative make up).

jk

In reply to jkarran:

You said "I can't think of a way that isn't extremely disruptive, frankly most just involve genocide but this is the scale of the problem we face."

  So the rational inference is that people are protesting in favour of a policy that will at best be "extremely disruptive" eg.create mass poverty, and at worst be genocidal.

"Yes I think people are right to protest."

So you are supporting protests that you believe, if successful, may produce mass poverty and at worst genocide?

  That is not to suggest, and I didn't,  that you are proposing genocide, but it would appear that you are supporting protests that you acknowledge may result in genocide.

  I thought no one ever voted to be poorer?

  So, I'm not clear. Do you or do you not think that a randomly chosen "peoples' assembly" should  be trusted to make sensible choices? Incidentally, if they are randomly chosen, how do you know that they will be "capable"?

In reply to Jimbo W:

I'll exit this debate and just leave ukc to congratulate each other on how green we all think we are, whilst driving around the country just to do sports, with a car full of clothing and equipment manufactured primarily from oil. 

I don't expect anyone to change, I think the only hope is for the West to use technology so that the rest of world can reach our standard of living without destroying things more than they have to in the process. That requires cooperation, sacrifices and willingness on all sides. 

In reply to Postmanpat:

I also said: We need greater minds than mine to deliver acceptable solutions (which to be clear genocide isn't)

It's hard to imagine how I could have been any clearer.

Arguably genocide isn't the 'at worst' outcome, doing nothing may be worse. Still, it isn't an acceptable solution so we need to find one that is.

Yes I think people are right to raise awareness of the defining and most urgent issue of our age. The issue which will unchecked very likely lead to poverty, famine and genocide. Yes I think solutions that cause massive disruption will be necessary but once again for the hard of thinking (which you're not, you're just being a prick for the sake of it) I am not advocating genocide to this end, nor is anyone else.

Halting climate change doesn't need us to be poorer, it does need us to redefine wealth. I think we have plenty of evidence of people choosing a future for their family over material wealth in the here and now. I presume this is another petty brexit reference?

They don't have to be completely randomly chosen to be effective and representative. Juries aren't, people unable to act in that capacity for one reason or another are excused, it's entirely reasonable that a degree of selection also be applied to ensure the representatives are willing and able to access the education and expertise they need to make an informed choice.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I agree with the idea of a citizen assembly, as has been pointed out the harsh choices that will have to be made won’t be made by politicians under our present system. Such as car usage being dramatically cut down, suburban growth stopped, dramatic change in consumption and change to our neoliberal market led philosophy with its growth driven, GDP fixated closed system. At least one political party is opposed to this in its very DNA.

its a system that takes the advice off experts and condenses them into a series of actions with clear consequences spelt out for not following the recommendations.

As we have seen this can be tricky, how this then squares with parliamentary sovereignty then becomes difficult but desperate times call for desperate measures.

the Paris accord is historically going to be viewed as similar to Chamberlains peace in our time.

In reply to jkarran:

 

  I have now twice explained that I am not suggesting that you are consciously proposing genocide

  You are simply not owning the logic of your support for them. The obvious outcome of such radical and immediate reductions in CO2 would be economic collapse and mass poverty. Neither they nor you can suggest any way of avoiding this (nor, it would appear can those with more technological, scientific and and economic knowledge) so you are, by implication accepting that we should take very great risk of accepting those outcomes as preferable to a slower and better formulated and managed transition.

  I suspect that your real position is a belief that urgent actions needs to be taken and that any non-violent way of raising awareness is therefore good.

  Do you think that that the average person in the street fighting their way home after 9 hours at work to look after their children will be very sympathetic to (many well healed) protestors whose aims will likely cause them to live in material poverty but who tell them that they will be spiritually better off?

  The spokesperson for the protestors on R4 said the assembly should be by "ballot". Which criteria should be used to restrict this to "capable" people?

In reply to Postmanpat:

No, that is one possible outcome. It is the most likely of course but then nobody believes we can decarbonise in 6 years without total nuclear war (which again to be abundantly clear I don't consider an acceptable solution) but we face a radical existential threat, we need radical solutions. First and foremost we obviously need to find a way to stretch that timeline and we need to make a serious start now.

Alas the last three years and the next ten look set to be tied up with your brexit bullshit which makes us poorer without giving our grandchildren a better chance of passing a civilisation on tor theirs. Still, we all choose what's important to us I guess.

Well I could make suggestions, it is an area of interest is not expertise and my suggestions won't get us where we need to go. But what's the point, you don't want answers, answers require change.

You suspect? 10/10 for literacy.

Why are they working 9H days? The choice isn't between wealth and 'spiritual well being', we could prioritise different things to achieve decent lives, rampant, fu*k it all from space for another penny on the share price, capitalism isn't the only way to live. It isn't any way to live if we're honest with ourselves. We're dinosaurs you and I, different types but dinosaurs none the less. Like them we'll be extinct soon and that's probably for the best.

Again I'm no expert but I'd suggest, like jury selection you call up more than you need then you exclude those who don't meet the requirements.

Out of curiosity, what is your objection to making decisions in this manner? Let's skip the potential (but solvable) incompatibility between direct and parliamentary democracy exposed by the brexit catastroshambles for now.

jk

In reply to Postmanpat:

If you think this is a "spiritual" problem, you're not paying attention. 

I assume you dont dispute the IPCC finding? We have to act right f*cking now. I dont understand how the wealth or class of the people raising the issue is relevant. 

And it should go without saying that the longer we wait before acting, the more it will cost and the more ordinary people will suffer.

In reply to jkarran:

  So would it be true to say that you don't support the explicit aims of the protests (which include decarbonisation within six years) but nevertheless support their protests?

  I want to understand how the aims of the protestors are compatible with no collapse into material poverty and no civil mass disorder. Given that that yu supports their protests is that such an unreasonable thing to ask?

  The problem with utopian aspirations and solutions is that they pretty much invariably end in disaster. If the 'isms of the 20th century taught us anything it should have taught us that. And that's before we get on to religion......

  Have you ever sat on a jury. I haven't but the overwhelming feedback from people who have seems to be that many of the members couldn't be trusted to read a train timetable. How might we exclude these?

   For all sorts of reasons very many people are not qualified or interested to make complicated decisions and certainly not ongoing decisions about massively complex subjects. Such a small group of unqualified people can be incredibly easily manipulated. But maybe that is the point......?

In reply to removed user:

  Jesus wept. And your not paying attention the thread.....

In reply to removed user:

2 different goals, human suffering or saving species diversity? 

The best way to maintain or at least give rediversificaton of species a chance over the next few hundred thousand years would be a catastrophic reduction or annihilation of the human population. 

In reply to Postmanpat:

I would support a viable plan to decarbonise sustainably in 6 years. My understanding is we don't have one so next best I propose we develop one or one that gets us as close as possible.

My position isn't complicated, we need to effect massive change, the goals of those most motivated are going to seem unrealistic to those of us like you and I with different perspectives, who are less motivated. My belief that their goals are unobtainable doesn't mean I believe we shouldn't strive to miss by as little as possible.

Yes I support the protests. Yes I would like to see this issue top priority in government, the one around which all other policy is shaped. No I don't accept that means making us poor though I accept we have different definitions of poor.

I don't suppose most of them can answer the question any better than I. The question does have answers though, we just need to find out if when the facts are considered we're willing to pick one of them, to radically change how we do things so as to leave a viable civilisation to the next generation.

I'm sure we'll make some horrible mistakes along the way. Just as I'm sure that doing nothing isn't acceptable or sustainable so I'm willing to take the risk.

Well we could start by asking them if they are willing to participate rather than compelling them and we could ensure they have sufficient base level education to build on as adults, or not, include the undereducated and provide the support they need. Seriously, this isn't my field but it isn't beyond the wit of man to get a group of 50-100 willing, capable and varied people together.

Propose a better solution.

jk

In reply to Jimbo W:

Yes, that's right I'm sure. Two questions, 1. Do you use fossil fuels yourself? 2. What's your proposal?

In reply to floratysa:

Bahahahahahahahahaaaaaa

Top banter. 

In reply to profitofdoom:

They did do you know.

In an agreeable way, asking people if they use fossil fuels themselves, in a society that runs on them where avoiding using them is difficult (or in a flat - impractical verging on impossible) and (and for many prohibitively) expensive not to, isn't a 'fair' question, I would suggest.

In reply to floratysa:

Why would you study in this area when governments ignore too much the science (whether climate science, biodiversity, through to tech innovation, such as the chemistry and nanotechnology in battery innovation or carbon fixation)?

Why would you study in this area when governments relatively do not support the R&D in these areas?

Why would you study in this area when governments do not provide the economic infrastructure that values spin-out and business development of this technology?

In reply to Jimbo W:

Never mind the rights and wrongs of all this - what happened to the water cannons in London? They would be ideal for dealing with this sort of protest - disperse the crowd and clean up the litter/debris they leave behind as well.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Support. Those who decry the mention of biodiversity over human suffering don't realise that the issues are profoundly intertwined.

I wasn't able to attend, but these people are driven by the rising awareness that it's not some vague future generations who are going to have to live with the effects of climate change. It will be us. Public support has been leaning towards clean solutions for years and it's not reflected in policy. Organisers have done their research on what strategy works and they are following through.

Many young people are already working on "innovative solutions" but as someone has already said, what can we do when our research is ignored? And what do people under 18 do as they read the data that shows their future slipping away on someone else's warch? They're mobilising, and thank f*ck for that.

In reply to Jimbo W:

And ANY disruption they could conceivably cause will pale in comparison with the disruption if we do not act now. The arithmetic is not hard to do.

In reply to myrddinmuse:

I'll play devils advocate, can you justify your travel for climbing? 

In reply to subtle:

And no need to arrest them.

 Before the protest an organiser was being interviewed and saying they planned to have as many people as possible arrested. They are not doing badly there.

But I hoped they pointed out to the younger more impressionable protesters that being arrested and charged with an offence (probably receive a caution?) is not great for some job prospects in life. By all means come along and protest, but having a criminal record ain't so clever for some.

In reply to Moley:

I expect the organisers don't care. It's not them in the cells and not their potential career being killed off by having a criminal record. 

In reply to summo:

Exactly - don't arrest them, let them protest, if they need moved though then open the water cannons, they will soon move and thus being wet and uncomfortable will soon move off completely but having got their protest noted and without suffering implications of arrest

Simple solution for complex problems - simples as our PM would say

In reply to Jimbo W:

I think you're nitpicking in your criticism of the UK to a certain extent but I don't have the inclination to dig out and post loads of links.

I called out a few other countries because in past climate change summits it has not been the Europeans who have been obstructive but other countries, India being a notable example. I'm sure you'll see my statement as a call to defend them and in the end blame us again but it did strike me that a number of countries see these summits as opportunities for a bit of bartering rather than serious attempts at averting a catastrophe.

What is ludicrous is not the ambition but the detail of how they want to make change happen. A citizens council dictating to a government what it should do? Where does Parliament fit in, how does anyone know what this council will actually decide and who do they answer to? Sounds like the sort of thing a seven year would come up with.

In reply to subtle:

Water canons? We're trying to save the planet here, that's such a waste. 

In reply to summo:

Why would it be?

The water cannons exist.

The water is pumped from the Thames, into the electric vehicles, blasted at the protesters, clears the streets of the protesters but also cleans the debris left behind by then, the water flows back into water courses/drains and ends up back in the Thames. Ok, there's the electricity for the pump but this is balanced by the cleaning effect of the water meaning no electric road sweepers required in this area.

Actually, this could be a winner for a lot of protests, could be on to something here - oh, wait, what happened to the water cannons again?   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46258584

In reply to Postmanpat:

We'll live in a better environment?

All a load of wankers

In reply to summo:

This is irrelevant.

I think that as a society we need to shift rapidly into the mindset that we're going to have to take drastic action to prevent climate change from causing death, destruction and social collapse on a global scale within our lifetimes. If part of that shift is that I have to cut back my climbing trips further than I already have done then I can deal with that. But we need to do that collectively. Until then, me deciding to go for a bike ride at the weekend rather than driving to North Wales isn't going to make a jot of difference.

BTW, are you familiar with the term "argumentum ad hominem"?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

True. And even if the UK was carbon neutral. Do you really think the USA would follow suit? 

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Yes. 

I'm just asking? People are often quick to say we must do this and that otherwise we are doomed. But slow to make the same lifestyle changes themselves. 

In reply to summo:

Maybe. Maybe not. One thing that's certain is that if we all sit around waiting for someone else to make the first move then nothing's going to change.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

It depends if you are sticking the bike on the car and driving to bwlch-nant-yr-arian for a MTB session, otherwise each small step helps so stopping driving and bike riding is a start

In reply to Removed User:

I'd not really read anything about these citizens' assemblies until 10 minutes ago but I'm guessing you've at least looked on their website to see what they are suggesting?

If you haven't then they have some scant details details on their website but it doesn't sound like rocket science nor some kind of crazy off the wall idea, it turns out Ireland already does this thing with various issues - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/citizens-assembly-is-an-...

In reply to summo:

People are slow to make lifestyle changes, especially in a culture that makes them value consumerism, exotic travel etc. That's why we need government and legislation to lead the change. People are individually often selfish but en masse, can make the massive changes required.

In reply to galpinos:

That's perfectly understandable.
However, whenever this crops up on UKC, it's pretty much guaranteed that the people saying that something should be done are travelling here, there and everywhere on climbing trips.
 

In reply to summo:

That's a tough issue, and I am the first to acknowledge that I could do more in my life to have a smaller impact. For myself, living in Wales and having most of my family living in the USA has always been a hard choice to me regardless of climbing. Can I justify traveling the atlantic once a year without being an utter hypocrite? Is it worth losing family connection to save the planet? I've chosen family, and I've chosen climbing, more often than not.

For me I've tried to make amends for it by pursuing a career choice in renewable energy research, partaking in activism when I can, and making other lifestyle changes. I'm not perfect, and everybody's a hypocrite. How about you?

In reply to subtle:

Do you know people can lose eyes to water cannons?

In reply to FactorXXX:

Do you think that nothing should be done? Carry on as we are and apologise to the next generation later?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Of course something should be done.
Just it seems that some people on UKC want the Government to do *something* about it whilst still going on foreign climbing trips, etc.
If those individuals were that concerned about it to the degree of voicing it on UKC, then surely they should stop flying as a matter of course?
It's a bit like continuing to smoke because the Government hasn't banned it.

In reply to myrddinmuse:

Like every ukcer I'm a hypocrite. But I'm not waiting for legislation, I do what I can already. I don't do any pointless shopping, grow a lot of our own food, one short haul flight a year or less. I'm happy to buy seconded hand, expect a cheap smart phone to last 6 or 7 years, have a 10 year old small engined petrol car. I do many sports from the door, I often cycle to another place if i choose to train, climb, swim etc.. indoors. We live too remote for any refuse collection, but can usually get our non recyclable waste down to less than one carrier bag a week. I probably use outdoor gear that's older than you. 

But, even then I'm sure we are still living beyond our means in a sustainable sense. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

Words are easy, it's what people actually do that is important. Down the pub the other night one of our group was extremely vocal with regard to us all doing our bit and as often happens in situations like this he and his wife came across as what can only be described as a morally, superior attitude, lecturing each and every one us to try harder. It felt like instant karma when we did a bit of a rough and ready scoring, over the previous 5 years, of each of our individual carbon footprints.  Out of a group of 8 they both came out with a far higher score than anyone else in the group.  They had a car each and had 3 holidays a year abroad with at least one being a long haul.

In reply to FactorXXX:

It's more like continuing to smoke while saying that the government should stop the local chemical plant venting toxic fumes across the town center. Those of us who are ecologically concerned can do as little or as much as we want (for my part, I feel like I do a fair bit but I honestly don't know where it sits in the grand scheme of things) but we're still screwed unless we either have radical action at a government level or a global shift of values so huge that it'd make radical action at a government level look trivial. And as such, I'd rather cheer on and support the people who are actually trying to achieve that than undermine them by carping about how little or how much they might hypothetically be doing on a personal level.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Some people have made lots of changes, some people have made some changes and some people have done nothing, personally I think that’s a good reason to affect change at governmental level rather than solely relying on individual action.

In reply to summo:

Yes.

In the long term even ignoring climate change there is no choice but to go carbon neutral.  Supply will eventually be exhausted.

Whoever invests heavily in R&D and infrastructure to go carbon neural first will reap a fortune as other places follow, driven...

• By necessity - supply exhaustion
• By internal/external legislative pressure (itself driven partly by protest and in la la land by the legislators paying any attention to research what so ever)
• By carbon neutral solutions becoming cheaper than fossil carbon solutions.   

Much of the developed world is listless and aimless - no gobal war to win, no Apollo program to spent the nation’s wealth on.  I think de carbonisation should be the UKs over arching goal, taken as seriously as a world war and the first moon shot.  But no, we squander our incredible wealth on pointless shite whilst the world goes to hell.

Change starts at home and our overarching household goal is a reduction in carbon footprint including by adapting lifestyles and finding ways to be at least as happy without travel etc.  Would that more people would do this - instead they’re going to make these protests look like summer camp when an increasingly desperate world forces them to change lifestyles in ways they’re not prepared for.  

In reply to MeMeMe:

You're missing the point.
It's the people on here that say that the Government should do something, but a quick look at their Log Book/Posting History reveals that they personally are not doing anything with regards to not flying, etc.  
If someone has genuinely changed their lifestyle to do their bit about slowing down Global Warming, etc. then fair enough, criticise away and lets be honest, the best thing we can do as climbers is not to use excessive Fossil Fuels by flying i.e. if you continue flying, then you are effectively on the "some people have done nothing" on your scale of what people have done.

In reply to FactorXXX:

They want government to do something, because government are in a very visible position of leadership as well as a position with real power. Just by stating open and honestly how bleak the future looks if we continue on the current trajectory would be a damn good bit of leadership to start with, because it is an honest preparation of the people for what is coming. Contextualising the 60% drop in Italian live oil yield last year, the 20% drop in UK veg production, the fact that European grain yields have been flat lined for >10yrs, and how climate is a major threat to that food would be a damn good start. Talking open and honestly about how water will be so short that desalination will likely be necessary even in the UK within two decades. Talking about the fact that the carbon budget available for our children will mean they have very little of the things we consume and take for granted. That communication is key. Such a dedicated address to the people would be largely believed coming from our prime minister, and that would bring climate reality to a whole new audience, vastly improve the press coverage, and start the conversstion for the difficult policies that we must start to pursue.

Government can also improve the choices available for those who want to improve their environmental impact through the provision of infrastructure and incentives. However, much of the radical economic shift required needs to be done with carbon pricing with redistribution to the people and the alternatives. Disincentivising fracking leaks, disincentivising landfill leaks, disincentivising CO2 emissions from power stations through to agricultural tillage and manure, disincentivising flights and heavy car use. Incentivising renewables, incentivising electrification of transport and energy within the home, incentivising insulation, double glazing and retrofitting of our old housing stock, incentivising, biochar, agroforestry and reforestation. We need the government to take the lead here, because the economic manipulation they can impose can make these things far more accessible as well as opening up new markets.

We're all hypocrites, and any individual commitments  people realise to reduce our impact is a help and is to celebrated, but are you so sure people haven't stopped flying? It can be done! I am a hypocrite in many areas, but as a family, we're trying to get there one step at a time.

In reply to wintertree:

Whoever holds the ground breaking patents will hold all the cards. I just don't see it being the UK. Despite all their issues, I think China will win far more innovation races than people are comfortable with in the next 50 years  

Would agree... many people seem happy to spend silly money on a new kitchen or bathroom every ten years, but won't spend anything related to energy improvements that would last a lifetime. 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Is your point ‘some people are hypocrites’? If so then I get it, I just don’t think it’s an interesting or useful point given the upcoming climate catastrophe.

In reply to MeMeMe:

Essentially yes.
It's important because *we* as individuals can do something about it *now* and don't have to wait for Governments to do something.
If people are really concerned about Global Warming, etc. then one contribution (sacrifice) is to stop flying.
 

In reply to FactorXXX:

It would be great if the climbing community would do that. 

Oh and turn vegan, i’ve been told it’s one of the simplest and easiest ways to make a significant reduction how much green house gas you are responsible for.

But much as these personal choices make a difference i’d still like the government to act.

In reply to FactorXXX:

So long as you don't think in a yearning way about where you could fly to, if you did fly, I've found it's pretty easy to do.

In reply to summo:

I agree. Reading the scientific literature in many areas of relevant innovation, but especially carbon fixation, battery technology, but also genetic selection and modification of crops, there is a significant bias towards Chinese groups, which suggests a significant underlying financial support system exactly where priorities should be. In one example of a significant advance, they have produced a perennial grain crop, a perennial Rice (PR23) with productivity matching typical annual rice, which will help facilitate mixed agriculture, mitigate soil erosion, and could well help facilitate the de-desertification that the Chinese have set out to achieve. But its not just that, its the water infrastructure, reforestation, through to solar on sea that they are doing at scale. Its easy to castigate the Chinese for their emissions, but their mitigation looks more serious than elsewhere around the world, and they are providing us with the technology we need as a side benefit, and that dependence looks likely to grow and grow as the situation gets more serious. Perhaps its not just climate rationalism, but a conscious economics? I think their behaviour is, in the round, more rational than we in the West would like to admit.

In reply to Timmd:

They usually do. 

In reply to FactorXXX:

Perhaps UKC could host a climate flight pledge page. A page of people publicly committed to climbing and walking locally, voluntarily giving up flying?

In reply to summo:

In which case I commend you. But it takes more than individual action to tackle the incoming crisis, as you say. Just because you're not waiting for legislation (commendably), doesn't mean it's not absolutely necessary.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Really? -- "their mitigation looks more serious"? Did you know that China is now greatly INCREASING the production of power through coal? You can try this article, "China coal power building boom sparks climate warning":

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

China is now also building plenty of coal-powered stations outside China, you can look at this article, "China-backed coal projects prompt climate change fears". The article also talks about the already well-known effect of such stations on global warming:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46310807

So "where priorities should be" and "their mitigation"? They can start with coal

In reply to Jimbo W:

Of course it's not impossible. But where is the political will to fund something that is not only a carbon sink, but a money sink too? That political will does not exist - it is not a science problem. We've had technology for 50 years to reduce emissions - we never used it. Again - because it's not a problem for science to solve. By the time science finally catches up with a miracle tech that can solve the problem, costs nothing, and the only waste produce is free lattes - there'll be nothing left to save.

We've had the technology to lock carbon into soils for thousands of years. It's just not used. It's not a science problem - it's a problem that we want to have our cake and eat it too. We must accept sacrifices, individually and societally - to reach sustainability. We cannot wait until science makes it frictionless.

Why is that a science problem? It's not. It's a f(&king greed problem. We cannot pillage every single aspect of the planet and expect not to face consequences.

It does not need science. Nature is taking care of the matter and providing a replacement oak (Q. ilex) that can survive in the new conditions. It will probably hybridize with Q. robur at the margin and then we'll be very happy. We don't have the means to beat that right now. In fact we're fighting the free replacement to try and keep hold of some mythical status quo, but that's another story.

I am not too far away (less than one year) from beginning my own agroforestry project, and I can agree here. But again, we don't really need science - we need the ability to stomach sustainability in its true guise.

Insufficient economic incentives is not a science problem. It is a symptom of our society being too reliant on unsustainable means.
Secondly, we cannot science back extinct ecosystems. We simply don't have the technology to record them with any level of fidelity. DNA is not sufficient to cover epigenetics or cultural knowledge. DNA is required from a population and not just a few individuals to prevent bottlenecks. Animals have cultural knowledge - bears know dozens, perhaps hundreds of plants and how to use them, so do Jaguars. So did aurochs - but if you let a cow loose in the woods it will quite probably get the staggers and likely die. We can only culture something like 10% of micro-organisms in the laboratory, and we have only done that with 1% or less of them. We're still finding whole new classes of organisms (mimiviruses, lokiarcheota).

In reply to Jimbo W:

Why are Extinction Rebellion losing the plot and majority support in the UK? -- Look at what they say on their website, quote, "The Government must move beyond party politics on the climate and ecological emergency. We invite people and politicians to experience real democracy, to take part in people’s assemblies to model the direct, deliberative democracies we need."

The following phrases are an absolute red flag for most people in the UK: "move beyond party politics" ... "experience real democracy" ... "people’s assemblies" and "the direct, deliberative democracies we need"

Right. Because "people’s assemblies" have been such an enormous success throughout history, up to the present, haven't they?

You did, of course, ask a good and important question - "What will it take for people and governments to wake up to the existential crisis we face?"

In reply to FactorXXX:

The thing is everyone has a reason not to act in their own sphere but a strong reason to act overall.  Companies: shareholders won't support it; government, voters won't support it; individuals. I want an international holiday.  It actually makes sense to try and force other people/bodies to act.  If everyone does, everyone benefits.  A but like tax.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Whilst the call for individual action is fine the problem needs collective action.

To reclaim the Dunkirk spirit that has been hijacked of late.

Did we tell people to make a choice about food consumption or did we collectively have food rationing?

did we tell people to tackle the Hun as individuals or did we mobilise collectively?

Did we let the market decide what were the best planes and equipment for the job or did we do it centrally? 

Did we do it alone or did other countries join in?

ask yourself if the individual approach being put forward by some is really going to work in dealing with this impeding crisis. It just seems another way of causing disharmony and deviding us.

In reply to jethro kiernan:

But it won't happen. The biggest driver is consumerism, materialism..  whatever you want to call it. How many countries will support reducing how much stuff they produce that the West just doesn't need? 

Ps. Many countries didn't unite in ww2. They saw it as an opportunity to grab land, power and resources whilst fighting a common foe. Russia is already eyeing up the artic waters as sea ice reduces. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

One of the more interesting articles I have read on climate change is how the US Navy is tackling it. 

This included future proofing Naval dockyards and bases from rising sea levels. 

The big shipping companies are starting to address  it as well.

You also have insurance organisations like FM insisting that global supply chains are protected . So that for example buildings are hurricane proof in areas prone to this risk.

caterpillar one of the true global companies is pushing ahead wilth a lot of action in this area.

It demonstrates what can be done and also that a lot more people/ organisations take it more seriously than a lot of what you might call treehuggers think.

it will of course be  both communities combined that address the issue.

In reply to summo:

You have a very negative attitude about this, you a great defender of capitalism, whilst just admitting it going to cause untold misery for the next generations. At the same time you believe no change is possible because our generation can't be arsed because we are to wrapped up in neo capitalist individualism.

I'm not sure if your secretly advocating bringing in some type of Logans run type scenario.    

Maybe start off by withdrawing the voting rights of the over 35's before going full Logans run.

In reply to neilh:

But what is striking about the examples that you cite is that the actions being taken are mitigation actions, rather than harm-reduction or harm-prevention actions. Of course, mitigation actions are now sensible, given that we are now well past the point at which long-term harms are inevitable. 

However, what is still missing is a concerted global plan to reduce emissions, adopted by all major emitters, and there are still governments - the USA and Australia in particular - which seek to downplay or deny the issue. The Paris agreement, while well-meaning, is toothless. Without genuine enforceable plans to decarbonise the global energy systems, we remain on the same path. 

And if I may, your description of climate change activists as treehuggers is patronising nonsense. Awareness of climate change has been promoted by scientists for decades. It is thoroughly grounded in strong scientific analysis and evidence. It is insulting to present the case for climate action as the preserve of treehuggers. 

In reply to profitofdoom:

because they are f*ckwits. heard on the radio this morning they are planning to disrupt the Tube.  I can't see how stopping people using public transport will help climate change - quite the opposite in fact.  

In reply to jethro kiernan:

How do we make a massive reduction in global consumption in less than a decade and not cause many economies to collapse, large scale unemployment and a global depression? 

In reply to profitofdoom:

My reading of what's happening in China is that it's a matter of priorities.  The first priority of the Chinese state is to maintain fast economic growth, because they think that guarantees stability of the regime.  That needs more energy, now, and since they don't have much gas that implies burning more coal.

The second priority is to dominate world markets in what they see as industries of the future.  These include renewable energy.  That's why China has spent $100's of billions subsidising solar cell factories, with the result that the cost of modules crashed & they ended up with 5 of the top 6 solar cell manufacturers.  They're now doing the same with batteries for electric vehicles.  They have more nuclear reactors under construction than any other country.

The third priority is to sort out their own environmental problems.  The country is run by engineers so they know what the problems are, both locally in terms of serious air and water pollution, and globally in terms of their vulnerability to climate change.

Even if China's motives are entirely selfish, the rest of the world does benefit from this - it's China that's driven the cost of solar energy down to be competitive with fossil fuels in sunny parts of the world, and it will be China, if anyone, that makes electric vehicles affordable.  This is just as well, as if not China, I'm not sure who else can drive this transition.  It doesn't seem that it's going to be the USA, which is now a petrostate.

In reply to Richard J:

Not quite so desperate, if this report from Bloomberg is anything to go by:

https://thinkprogress.org/electric-vehicles-cheaper-gasoline-cars-e4c86bd2a...

It is also the case that in the USA, despite the idiot Trump's much-tweeted support for the coal industry, increasing numbers of electricity generators are closing their coal-fired power stations in favour of renewables. Notably, in the USA, the government is lagging a long way behind industry and behind individual cities and states. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

scientists are not treehuggers , nor did I suggest they were. That is your interpretation , not mine  

The likes of caterpillar, fm , etc etc have plenty of.scientists telling them what to do.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Maybe I'm too down on the USA, but I think the point remains that it will be expansion of the battery industry in China that drives worldwide prices down and speeds up the adoption of electric vehicles.  According to this article China is expected to produce 70% of ev batteries by 2021.  The competition is with Japan and Korea rather than the USA, which has no battery manufacturers of its own (Tesla's factory being a joint venture with Panasonic).

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Cover-Story/Battery-wars-Japan-and-South-...

In reply to neilh:

Treehuggers, in this context, is clearly perjorative. You chose to use the word, not me.

In reply to jkarran:

  So you are supporting people whose explicit demands would highly likely result in mass poverty and civil disorder and accept that neither you nor they a considered way of ameliorating these outcomes (and of course have only months to do so if their demands are to be carried out)

Got to break a few eggs I guess...

 Are you confident that these people "raising awareness" will raise positive awareness as opposed to alienating the large numbers of people  who see their daily lives being hugely disrupted by the protests and the even larger number who can foresee the disasterous outcome of their demands?

 Third question: if the UK accepts these demands and suffers the mass unemployment and collapse of the welfare state that will likely result how do you think these rest of the world will perceive this precedent? Is it likely to have a positive effect on the implementation of climate change policies?

  I don't have a utopian solution. I wonder if there is any solution but the best would be protests that don't alienate ordinary people and set high but almost achievable targets that people and governments can buy into instead of crass demands that will likely prove disasterous and therefore create a backlash against more reasonable policies.

In reply to summo:

By not delaying , because environmental and climate collapse will result in social and economic collapse. The longer we delay the harsher the crash landing.

maybe we need the shock to effect change, I’m not sure any of us would like The societies that would emerge. The irony is that those most responsible for bringing the disaster about will be best placed to “capitalise” on the resulting mess and will remain on top.

unless we end up back in the dark ages, fuedalism and such droit de seigniorage anyone?

a green revolution will provide the economic boost, even with our best efforts a lot of work will be needed to adapt, we can do this collectively and try and make a positive change with better urban environments and acriculture, transport etc. or we can react and have hastily cobbled together ruffugee camps and poverty

In reply to jethro kiernan:

Nope. The revolution needed is less consumption, there can't be any economic boost from that. We just have to learn to live with less and do less. There is no cake and eat it scenario.  

In reply to Jimbo W:

Has anyone mentioned its the easter academic break? Interested to see protests in late may exam season

In reply to toad:

Or mid term. 

In reply to Richard J:

The USA is, as is often the case, a fascinating mix. Many cities, states and corporations have ambitious carbon-reduction targets to be applauded. However, at a federal level, the country is hamstrung by an idiot for a president, hell-bent on keeping the fossil-fuel industries at the top table to the exclusion of other energy providers. 

You points about batteries are very pertinent. It has long been a mystery to me as to why the fossil fuel giants have not repositioned themselves as energy providers, encompassing renewables and energy storage.

In reply to Postmanpat:

My partner's family have a treasured letter passed from generation to generation penned a hundred years ago on the eve of the battle of Arras. The last thoughts of a thoughtful decent man age very gracefully.

Do you think a hundred years from now when all doubt has been erased as to the scale and seriousness of the challenge we've declined to face your family will be so proud of your timorous council of conservative neglect?

We don't have time to tinker, we need radical reform. We can either lead it, make it work for all of us or we can suffer it. Either way change is coming.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

  Do you think in six years time when the UK is suffering from mass unemployment and civil disorder and other countries have shied away from climate change action as a result that you will be proud of your demands for radical action?

  Or alternatively when the public's anger and frustration with the nonsensical demands and disruptive action of the protestors hinders the implementation of achievable policies will you be proud?

In reply to Postmanpat:

I give up, you're being utterly disingenuous or simply not reading what I say. Either way you're no longer worth the effort.

All demands for radical change are nonsensical until we decide to pursue it earnestly. "We choose to go to the Moon...We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard" was a bold statement of intent, a call to radical action that pulled a country together in 1961. In 1951 it would have been 'nonsensical'.

Will I look back on my life and actions proud? No. I hope with work and care I end it having done some good and accepted my flaws, not too ashamed.

jk

In reply to Jimbo W:

According to the BBC article to which you supplied a link, "Extinction Rebellion ... have shut bridges, poured buckets of fake blood outside Downing Street, blockaded the BBC and stripped semi-naked in Parliament", OK, that's great, London is being disrupted, now can you please tell us what they are doing to bring the main polluters of this world, i.e. China, India and others, into line? Any plans for Beijing, just wondering, thank you

In reply to jkarran:

  You are simply not owning the rational of your support. What you are saying that you don't actually support their demands but have a vague idea that demonstrating about climate change is a good thing so you support them. I am calling you out on that and you regard that as "not listening".

  It's both an intellectually lazy position because if you support them you have to think through and own the likely outcomes of their demonstrations, and potentially a self defeating position because their protests will very likely have the opposite effect to that which you desire.

   Going to the moon is an incredibly bad analogy; the downside was a waste of public money and a few deaths. The downside of the demonstrations is at worst mass poverty but more likely alienating people whose support they need.

In reply to Postmanpat:

It's quite possible to broadly support an idea or organisation without agreeing every single detail. Do you support the Conservatives' 'hostile environment'? Do you support the Conservatives?

I support their protest. I support their objectives while I don't believe they're all realistic I think we should strive for something as close as possible and sustainable. I admire them for aiming high, for daring to dream rather than being ground down, paralysed by conservatism (that is nothing of the sort when it involves idly watching what you love lost) and a lack of ambition and imagination like you and I.

I don't believe we need to destroy our economy to address climate change, I believe we need to radically re purpose it, to reassess who and what it serves.

No, it's an attempt on your part to atomise support by forcing individuals into ever smaller silos, pretending detail differences hold them apart rather than common aims and concerns bonding them together. Divide and conquer except in this case it's divide and sit back on your pension watching someone else's world burn.

And the upside (apart from going to the moon) was huge technological development and a shining example of what is possible when we set our minds and resources to something, what we are willing to support and forego to achieve something greater. Also it was 1962, my mistake.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I've heard the economist Ann Pettifor (who predicted the global financial crisis) describe the effort and upheaval required as equivalent to that of the second world war.

The economy radically changed over a short period in order to prepare for and sustain the war effort. While every individual's life was changed the change was directed by and driven from above, it's inconceivable that the changes necessary, in the time frame necessary, could have happened through the action of individuals. 

In reply to jkarran:

   No, it's an attempt on my part to work out whether they are going to help or hinder the larger aim of addressing climate change and I think they are more likely than not to hinder it and possibly to do great damage to the cause in the process.

  And as for your political analogy, you are of the left but do you think all people of the left should support SWP rallies?

In reply to Postmanpat:

In your opinion. Clearly they think differently and actually have the not inconsequential courage to act on their convictions. If you agree there is a problem (and I'm not clear if you do or not) what are you doing to address the issue other than pontificating on here?

I truly mean that as an open question, you don't give much away as to what you are personally doing as apposed to what other people are doing that you disagree with.

In reply to MeMeMe:

  Like most people on here I just go along with the initiatives that we're told to : recycling, hybrid car, favour HEP in Glen Etive, turn off the lights etc.

   I don't feel that I have the knowledge to justify buggering up other peoples' lives in favour of my particular view (not that I have one), and frankly neither do most of the demonstrators.

  There may be a moral imperative for us all to do our little bit but in reality of course it makes b*gger all difference in the global scheme of things.

In reply to Postmanpat:

My initial reaction to the protests was to think that since the goal - net zero carbon by 2025 - is so obviously unattainable, they would surely be counterproductive.  But on reflection I've changed my mind.  Firstly, I think that "net zero carbon" is a very powerful lens for framing the issue - it's very clear, it avoids the uncertainties of climate modelling that are implicit in calls to limit warming to 1.5 or 2 degrees, and there can be no question that at some point we're going to have to get to net zero, because that's what it needs to stop the problem getting worse.

The question is, then, when will we get to net zero?  Since we're currently running on 80% fossil fuel energy, it's not going to happen by 2025 without collapsing the economy.  So 2025 is an unreasonable demand.  

But the status quo is unreasonable too - on our current trajectory the economy's carbon intensity is going down, but much too slowly, probably pushing net zero out beyond 2100.  That bakes in warming of maybe 3 or 4 degrees as a central case, with some really catastrophic outcomes as tail risks that anyone prudent would want to rule out.

So the realistic, "reasonable" demand would be to get to net zero by mid-century, which might limit warming to 2 degrees and diminish some of the tail risk.  The political problem is that 2050 seems comfortably far away, so politicians don't feel pressure to act now.  But the timescales of energy transitions are so long that to get to net zero by 2050 demands, not that we crash the economy now, but that we put serious resources into making the transition, for research, for deployment subsidies, to changes to infrastructure.  That's really not happening at the moment, because the issue doesn't have any political salience.  If "unreasonable" demands are what's needed to give it salience, I'm in favour of them.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I don't think it's a mystery.  Chevron and Exxon have very successful and profitable businesses selling hydrocarbons, and they've convinced themselves people will still be buying them in 30 years time.  I wish I could be confident that they're wrong, but I'm not.

Renewables and energy storage, on the other hand, are risky bets that need big capital outlays on R&D, and political support (e.g. carbon taxes, deployment subsidies) to make the economics work.  There's a cautionary tale in the USA, in that many venture capital firms invested heavily in so-called "cleantech" around 2008, and lost loads of money, with some very high-profile bankruptcies.  I suspect that only state capitalist systems, like China, or at least very corporatist states like Korea and Japan, are in a position to make the very long term investments that this energy transition will need.

In reply to Richard J:

True, but they have known of the consequences of climate change for decades. Given their immense wealth and market position, they have been in the perfect position to shift their business model to a broader energy supply model, incorporating their existing fossil fuel interests alongside new energy sources. Essentially, they're in the best position to bet both ways.

It's interesting that you suggest that renewables are risky bets. It's been clear to anyone with half a brain that low-carbon energy is the growth market for the future. 

In reply to MeMeMe:

   She's probably right, but let's not fantasize about some ludicrous "peoples assembly". What it would require is an unelected authoritarian government buttressed by internal security forces to implement their policies.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

There's a difference between knowing that low-carbon energy is a growth market for the future, and being able to keep a loss-making company alive for long enough to reach that future.  

In reply to Postmanpat:

Which in effect is more or less what happened in WW11 , dressed up in another way with everything controlled by the governement.

In reply to jkarran:

Bloody well said, mate. 

In reply to neilh:

  Yes, but this was acceptable to the people because the threat, by 1940, was clear and present. It couldn't happen in in the 1930s because the danger wasn't clear and, arguably, France fell because there wasn't the will to resist even in the face of clear and present danger. No amount of warning actually did the trick.

  Sadly humans have not evolved to prepare or anticipate unprecedented or long term danger. We were pretty good at watching out for lions in the high grass, or avoiding the places that we had experienced lions before. Not so good at anticipating something new.

  Incidentally, it's worth reading chapter 10 of Hans Rosling's book "Factfulness". It's entitled "The urgency instinct".

In reply to Richard J:

There is certainly no status quo at the moment. This is my issue with the likes of Extinction Rebellion.

You only have to look at the collapse in the market for diesel cars (brought about by the govt) and the impact on JLR to understand some of the transition which is going on.

And from 2025 no new houses will have gas boilers ( which will start happenign sooner because of that target).

You only have to look at the shift to LED lighting over the past few years to figure out the changes ( street lighting being replaced etc etc).

Change is being driven by the consumer, govt and the private sector.Maybe not fast enough, but it is going on. Single use plastics will have vanished in a few years time and we will wonder what all the fuss was.

Single use plastic carrier bags - nearly/ not quite  confined to history.

Wind power - it is stunning how much energy is now generated by wind.

And so on.

And then you travel to other countries and you realise it might all be in vain anyway.

In reply to SenzuBean:

My point was science has a role, not that it is the only solution, which is your persistent strawman, to which I object.

Well, as I said, it has got $68million from fossil fuel companies because of the fuel generation side, which is why it would be better to have new companies with state support that don't have a vested interest in suppressing this technology in favour of conventional extraction. This is science based tech development that is operational now, worth investing in (or for commercial reasons suppressing).

Its a science problem, because if you use biochar on the wrong soils with the wrong crops you enhance carbon release, and suppress crop productivity. The existing science gives us a good indicator of where and with what biochar is a benefit for individual farms, and by proxy for the planet - helping tackle not just climate change, but also soil erosion. Again, I didn't say science is THE solution, just that it has a role, and what's more I wasn't advocating frictionless scientific solutions, which is another strawman. Indeed, advocacy of the economic incentives is simply a recognition of the realpolitik and the fact that the use of the existing science is clearly not frictionless. And simply that it is also a science problem does not mean that it isn't also a problem of consumption and what is now wilful intergenerational neglect as well as the neglect of nature, which I entirely agree with, and which equally needs addressed.

"Probably." That's a big word. Science gives us great knowledge of trophic chains associated with individual tree areas in individual parts of the world, including the UK. I'd like to see reforestation and regeneration, and do so in a way which supports natural biodiversity as much as possible, while recognising that with arctic amplification, the level of temperature increase in the UK will be much larger than the global average, and therefore there is no point in planting a whole load of species that won't survive, or are unlikely to even come to fertility to hybridise in the time available.

All the best with the agroforestry. We need people like you taking these projects forward. We also need permaculture based farms like Richard Perkins that are seriously efficient and productive, and build soil. That we are moving in these directions is to me scientific, albeit a science that recognised that the natural relationship of plants of different sizes, of mutual benefit to each other and the soil, are ones that nature's lessons have always indicated. But afterall, much of ecological science is in fact simply an accurate and detailed description of natural phenomena and relationships between species.

I wasn't saying economic incentives is a science problem, though clearly more science will happen in areas in which there is financial support for R&D, and I agree that we are too reliant on unsustainable means. I also agree we need to address that culturally. My own view is that economic incentives have to be one of the mechanisms utilised to shift cultural norms, as well as leadership from the top, and indeed a growth in individual action.

Indeed. I don't think we can science back extinct ecosystems. However, given that there are many, albeit insufficient reforestation programs ongoing, I'd rather we used our ecological scientific knowledge to plant trees we know will grow, rather than one's we know won't!

In reply to Postmanpat:

Extinction rebellion might be full of students and hippies but it's also full of scientists and campaigners who have expertise with regard to climate change and with regard to lobbying government. I don't think they claim to have all the answers they just want to provoke the government to find some of the answers and act on those findings as a matter of urgency.

I'm surprised you can get so stuck into an issue that you claim to have no particular view of!

I think that's where, to some extent, you and Extinction Rebellion agree, it takes more than individuals doing their own little bit it also needs changes driven through at government level and currently that's not happening.

In reply to neilh:

It's all good, but its not enough.  We used 2200 TWh in 2017, 61.5 TWh of that was wind and solar.  We could plausibly triple that by 2030, but it's not enough (especially since we'll lose about 60 TWh/year worth of nuclear capacity by then).  We used 0.2 TWh charging electric cars, but burnt 830 TWh worth of petrol and diesel in cars and trucks.  Overall, 80% of our energy comes from burning fossil fuels, and that is just not going to change fast enough without more action.

In reply to neilh:

There's a couple of things you might want to reflect on.

Firstly,  some of these 'other countries' may be using plastic bags and may not have LED street lights and roadside recycling and huge arrays of wind turbines but because they consume much less stuff than us they may have per capita CO2 emissions which are dramatically less than ours.

Secondly, a certain proportion of our CO2 emissions are essentially exported to countries that make all our stuff (I'm, looking at you China) so it's us that's helping push them up while pretending we're blameless.

In reply to Postmanpat:

That depends what your peoples' assembly decides. If a group of ordinary people provided the education and expertise they need to make a rational decision is able to decide to restructure our economy to decarbonise then in principal the population they represent can be persuaded too. Of course if they decide not to then we as a species are f*cked one way or the other.

A peoples' assembly doesn't exist to deliver solutions with the force of law, that's what our parliament is for but it isn't always capable. A single issue assembly exists to find where an informed populace with all its baggage can find common ground on a contentious issue. It exists to show a responsible government or series of governments a way forward through difficult decisions, to provide a degree of cover on a particular topic by binding the opposition and future government to a common long term plan.

jk

In reply to MeMeMe:

I am only too aware of that. It’s not difficult to figure out.

In reply to Richard J:

So nuclear has to be part of the mix, then govt needs to get on with it. 

Ban flying overseas for holidays.

That will help. 

In reply to MeMeMe:

And there are plenty of other scientists in other organisations etc doing climate change work who are not involved in the protests. 

In reply to neilh:

True, I didn't suggest there wasn't. 

I was specifically addressing the comment (not yours) "I don't feel that I have the knowledge to justify buggering up other peoples' lives in favour of my particular view (not that I have one), and frankly neither do most of the demonstrators." which suggested (at least to me) that there was no expertise on the issues within Extinction Rebellion. 

In reply to neilh:

Better off banning flying overseas for business. Most of my flights and particularly long haul flights have been for business rather than pleasure, most of which could have been sorted out with a video conference.

In reply to neilh:

Fair enough, it's just it's easy to forget that other people's situation is not ours and sound a bit sanctimonious about what we've done while criticising others failings. I'm acutely aware of falling into that trap myself!

In reply to neilh:

That's rather the point.  There's lots of stuff that the government needs to get on with that it is not doing at the moment.  The nuclear new build programme is stalled, only Hinkley C definitely going ahead and the investors pulled out of 3 of the other projects.  The government cancelled support for carbon capture and storage in 2015 (a horrible technology but one that's relied on in all the scenarios for keeping warming less than 2 degrees).  The government's own statutory Climate Change Committee says the UK's going to miss its carbon targets from 2023 onwards.  There just needs to be a bit more urgency about it all.

In reply to JoshOvki:

Well if you go on medium/long haul commerical flights you might be surprised as to how few people use it for business even in so called  business and first class.

On short haul possibly a different picture.

Then off course thereis air cargo, but its insignificant with ocean cargo in terms of volume.

Off course in this day and age most so called flights where video conferencing can be used have been ditched as video conferencing is far far cheaper.That view on business flights is a bit old hat.And I speak as an exporter who travels around far less than I use to.

 There again in some countries people use flights as commuting, but that is not business as you describe..Just means they have to move house.

In reply to Richard J:

Yes, a lot of people seem to think that nuclear power is declining in the U.K. because of greens and lefties, but the main cause is the devotion to private sector energy production. Private companies are scared off by the risks and the long term costs. The state could have started building the planned nuclear plants years ago. And there is a huge amount of pension money sloshing around looking for safe government bonds to invest in. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

Err yes and no.

...No because...

I'm probably one of the unpopular pro-science/ engineering/ investment crowd in that I think we should look to technological solutions and investment in order to be able to maintain or improve our quality of life while transitioning to a low carbon economy.

I don't much support trying to encourage people to use public transport by making it harder to drive a car. Even if it's the right thing morally, it often isn't practical. For example there are efforts to discourage car use near my work by limiting parking spaces. However if even 2% of the people whose cars now fill the car parks and clog up the nearby residential estate switched to the bus they simply wouldn't get to work because aren't enough busses/ seats. Worse, by frustrating people you risk turning them against progressive policies and into the arms of the deniers. It would be far better to use the 'carrot' and invest in public transport, even if that means taxing the 'comfortably off' (like me) as well as the 'rich' to do it.

There's a tendency among the greener left to oppose anything 'industrial' sounding even if it could take a massive chunk out of our carbon emissions through improved efficiency. This was the case for natural gas with combined heat and power a few years ago. It might still be, I'm not sure. Renewables are only now more attractive because of investment and innovation.

With this outlook I find it puzzling to see people trying to win others over by deliberately causing disruption to their lives and even directly attacking public transport.

...And yes because...

In the UK the investment I mentioned above isn't happening and the urgency is real. If the only way to make yourself heard is to cause disruption then I have a lot of sympathy for that approach.

I also don't have much time for the idea that the West/ UK are somehow doing better than China/ India. Surely a person is worth a person and we are way worse in CO2 per capita.

In reply to JHiley:

The person who makes the iPhone, climbing harness or belay jacket likely has a much lower carbon footprint than the end user. 

And, yes tech is the answer. 

In reply to MeMeMe:

 "and frankly neither do most of the demonstrators." which suggested (at least to me) that there was no expertise on the issues within Extinction Rebellion."

 There was a point to the "most". It explicitly doesn't mean "no expertise". I have been struck, however, that neither the official spokespeople for the protestors nor the random participants interviewed on the radio seem to have much a grip on the science, politics or economics of the issue. You'd have thought they would have got a few experts to front up for them.

  And, as neil suggests (I think), there are plenty of experts who probably don't agree with the position of the protesters and their experts.

In reply to Richard J:

  Good post, but I suspect that the approach, especially when it deliberately disrupts peoples' lives and threatens their material standard of living is just counterproductive.

In reply to Richard J:

...and increasing trade at a distance isn't one of them, and should be anathema to a responsible government that actually understands the climate emergency we face.

I wish we were pushing nuclear as well as renewables. The government cite the collapsing price of renewables as the reason not to have fought for the Hitachi and Toshiba nuclear deals, which suggests that they think renewables will do the job with sufficient storage coming online to buffer supply and demand, which seems pretty unrealistic to me. It does seem however that nuclear needs pursued at a state level, and while I understand the issues of national security, pursuit of a pan European and perhaps wider international approach using the same small and medium sized modular nuclear technology would be the way to do this, cutting costs through cooperation, scale, and creating a workforce with the skills to work wherever this technology is used. It seems that the UK government is pursuing an idea along these lines, but this is a long timeline:

 https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/11/06/uk-pledges-32m-to-test-small-modu...

It is an inelegant idea to bury the CO2 or a substance containing scrubbed CO2, but it is feasible, and dumping the idea seems the wrong direction of travel, especially when there does seems to be quite a scientific literature on developing improvements in scrubbing technology.

In reply to stevieb:

Totally agree. Though, they haven't abandoned nuclear entirely, they need to abandon the idea that this can be the preserve of the private sector:

https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/11/06/uk-pledges-32m-to-test-small-modu...

In reply to Richard J:

Rationing power may help. It works for the people who live on Eigg where they have no choice, but it means we need to work out how to do it and in particular how to do it in a way the protects people at potential risk and insures a basis for equality. A carbon price with the dividends going to the people and being repurposed to incentivise such tech may be a part of that approach, but is necessary anyway.

In reply to profitofdoom:

Isn't Parliament a People's Assembly"? Maybe just not one that this organisation agrees with?

We already have a Green Party and if they were in government I'm sure they would implement many of the measures that this organisation advocate. Of course very few vote for them because they have no clear idea of how they would actually achieve what they want to achieve.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Something in New Scientist I read last night talked about the steps people take of their own volition only being able half of what is needed, with there needing to be top down 'nudges' as well. With rather profound questions about individual freedom and autonomy being raised in the process. In the final analysis, I guess comes down to the individual freedom to consume (meat, dairy, fuel, and goods) versus the collective freedom from catastrophic climate change. It might be seen as the biggest step forwards in human cooperation, or foresight, if we can manage to change of we live. 

In reply to aln:

Have a saucer of milk.

In reply to Removed User:

It’s absurd to suggest that there aren’t significant changes that the Green Party  could make in Britain or that they don’t know how to achieve them. 

The average profit on a new build house is £57000. Solar panels could be installed on a new build estate for less than £2000 per house. Insulation above the legal minimum could cost much less than that. 

The current government basically killed expansion of one of the cheapest forms of electricity (onshore wind). Nuclear power stations are not being built because the private sector can’t make the numbers add up. We spend £3bn a year on winter fuel payments, we could give bonuses for spending this on energy efficiency. We spend £30bn on housing benefit, this could be linked to better minimum standards. A number of European cities have free public transport and the overall costs aren’t that high. There are 101 ideas that we could do, we just need the will to ignore the very highly paid lobbyists from housing companies, oil companies, car manufacturers etc. who are offering really well paid directorships. 

In reply to stevieb:

Oh I agree that the Greens have some good ideas and I wish the mainstream parties would steal some of them. It's just that when asked about joined together plans for running a country and changing society in the way they'd like to I'm afraid it all comes apart a bit.

In reply to Removed User: Meanwhile, food bank use is up, knife crime is up, women selling themselves for sex to survive in response to benefit changes has become an issue, and the government is massaging the employment figures so that we've 'the highest employment on record'. 

Edit: Access to mental health services is down due to funding having been cut, legal aid for those who couldn't afford it other wise has been cut (raising concerns in the justice system), funding for women's refuges has been cut, access to mental health services for young people has been reduced, the number of homeless has increased.

I'm not sure if any government has a wholly joined up plan that's successfully implemented...

In reply to stevieb:

And the government just banned gas boilers in new houses from a few years off. .........  so to say they are not doing anything is just ridiculous. And they pulled the plug on diesel cars. And if you run a foundry you are get it with climate change charged . And so on.and so on. 

And look at what legal and general are doing with pension funds. And what carney is saying to the banks. 

To say nothing is happening is ridiculous. 

In reply to Timmd:

I don't disagree with any of what you say but I'd honestly be surprised if the Greens had much of a policy on mental health for example. 

Just because the current government sucks doesn't mean there aren't worse alternatives and putting a well meaning but ultimately clueless party into power would definitely be one of them. The Greens are a pressure group and anything you hear and read from them should be viewed as coming from a group who are supremely confident that they will never be held responsible for any of the policies they advocate.

In reply to Timmd:

How so?

In reply to neilh:

Pretty sure I haven’t said they aren’t doing anything, at any point. Just that they could do a lot more. 

In reply to Postmanpat:

Somebody only needs to be working more than one hour a week to be counted at being in employment. 

In reply to Removed User:

It was just a general bemoaning of the state of things, a little bit, and a reminder of how things currently are.

In reply to Removed User:

No, Parliament is not one according to their definition. This is what Extinction Rebellion mean by "People's Assembly" - this is quoted/ copied from their website (https://rebellion.earth/act-now/resources/assemblies/):

"People’s Assemblies (PAs) are a group of self selecting people who come together in an assembly, often in occupied spaces as part of a movement towards revolutionary change (Tahir Square, Occupy, Gilets Jaunes, etc.).

The aim of the PAs can be to make decisions, discuss issues or rapidly organise.

Assemblies usually last from an hour to four hours and often happen in occupied spaces, roads or open town or city squares.

The people’s assembly will use participatory democracy, that is, everyone’s voice is heard equally and no voices lead. The aim is for the collective voice of the entire assembly to become involved in arriving at a decision. Trained facilitators are used to support the process. People will find that even though they have come to the issue with their own strongly held ideas and thinking, they will have their mind completely changed through the deeper knowledge and wider perspective gained through the process."

In reply to Timmd:

I think the play on words is more people in employment than ever before. Provided the population grows faster than the rate of unemployment increases, there will always be more people in work. 

In reply to Timmd:

To be fair to the government, the recent  increase in employment seems to be due mostly to previously economically inactive women entering employment. While making no judgement on who might work or stay at home in a family unit because I think that is a decision for each individual, I'm not convinced that people who were economically inactive entering the workplace is necessarily a good news story, including from the climate change point of view. That said, in the NHS, we could desperately do with some more people providing a service, as things seem to be collapsing with no good news on the horizon in uni education, training and workforce streams.

In reply to Timmd:

  That is the internationally accepted and utilised ILO definition of employment. How can describe using that as "government massaging"?

In reply to summo:

The labour participation rate  (the proportion of people either employed or looking for employment) is at it's highest level since at least 1971. Given that unemployment (the proportion of the former that is not in work (ie.is looking but not employed) is at "record lows" the overall picture of very low levels of unemployment is valid.

In reply to profitofdoom:

Thanks, that's bound to work really well.

In reply to stevieb:

Like alot of these things it will change because of (1) ground up protests highlighting the issue ( 2) businesses changing because they have to too survive and ( 3) government moving becuase of (1) and ( 2).

On a morbid note I enjoy reading Obituary's as I find some people's lifes fascinating. There was a recent one in the Economist ( easliy the best on this subject) to a guy at McDonalds( of all companies) who was responsible for their global views on climate change.The list of achivements that he had instigated at McDonalds in this area was very impressive( against alot of pressure from their franchises), they have been plugging away at it for some 20 years from what I recall driven by this guy.Cannot remember his name.

Postscript

Bob Langert, started in 1988.

But do consumers perceive McDonald’s as a socially or environmentally responsible company? If they do not, it is in spite of the best efforts of Bob Langert. In 1988, he took a temporary assignment managing a furore over polystyrene “clamshells” in which the company’s burgers were served, and which were being damned for their contribution to America’s litter problem. That turned into a 25-year career (he has since left the firm) dealing with the chain’s various negative external effects

In reply to Postmanpat:

I wasn't doubting it. But they are very careful with their wording, more people in employment than ever before etc. 

No one ever claims more people working full time hours than ever before etc. Or the classic seasonal adjustment etc. 

I'd treat it as guide, rather than a precise view. Perhaps looking at average income tax payments per capita as a guide to just how well everyone is really doing. Or if tax credit payments are lower than ever, that could imply greater prosperity. 

In reply to profitofdoom:

You mean just another House of Parliament or a local council or parish council dressed up in anotherway. The trained facilitors being local government officers.

I see little difference with what we have at the moment.

In reply to summo:

  It's a simple soundbite that people can understand. My version or your version don't have quite the same ring!

In reply to summo:

They do you know - last year I recall full time employment figures being said to be the highest ever.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/full-time-employment

In reply to Timmd:

Good comeback. 

In reply to Removed User:

It is. It isn't one representative of the population. It isn't one where individuals are genuinely free to exercise their judgement. It isn't one able to devote itself fully to a single complex issue for a year or more.

2015, the last normal election we had: 1.1M voted for them, that is despite us knowing FPTP guarantees that vote is wasted. Who knows what support they could command if we didn't have to vote tactically.

jk

In reply to Postmanpat:

Pardon me, then, just seemed rather few hours to me. I'd have thought the same had it been any other party btw.

In reply to Timmd:

   To be fair, it is quite an odd definition but apparently it doesn’t distort things significantly.

In reply to Jimbo W:

I must admit I'm disheartened by this thread. I thought that a group of climbers would be more supportive of action on climate change. We all love the outdoors and we're more likely than a lot of people to see how precious the environment is, and how humans can affect it. In the short time I've been climbing I've seen glaciers receed with my own eyes. This is what finally made me stop compartmentalising and fully accept the reality.

I just don't understand how, if you accept the scientific consensus on the need for systemic change, you can but support the people demanding action from the government. The IPCC report was clear: this is our last chance. How can you not be terrified, and then motivated to ask for the same things that the protestors are asking for? We need the entire species to unite and we can't even get UKC to unite. It makes me despair.

Anyway for every dislike that the top comment got I donated £10 to Extinction Rebellion (£120 in total). I feel slightly better. And all the teenagers I know understand what we're up against, that gives me some hope for the future.

In reply to removed user:

Full marks for cycling to at least as far as the alps. 

There is no definitive point, last chance, just a scale of change.  We've already passed the point of no change. 

Are unrealistic and pointless if it is not global. In a weeks time those protesters will be flying back to where ever for their summer term is. 

Will keep them in super glue and tambourines for a while. Money well spent!!

If you think it will go on PR, look at the shambolic performances on main stream media this week by their so called leaders. 

You'd have done better giving your money UNICEF. 

In reply to removed user:

Do you not see that someone might accept the scientific consensus on the need for systemic change, but not support/ agree with the methods used by Extinction Rebellion this week? They are different things

In reply to profitofdoom:

Especially when they have people like Emma Thompson flying in from LA especially to attend. 

Next it'll be Westwood, as designer who convinces people they need a new wardrobe every season. 

Brand must killing himself that he hasn't written another book he wants to plug whilst 'protesting' about capitalism. 

In reply to removed user:

 Don't be too disheartened. XR are making a difference. Climate Change is a much easier topic to talk about after just 5 days.

In reply to Jimbo W:

I support the protesters in their need to put it in the  forefront politically and therefore a good protest is needed. I do not support the word "rebellion" because I think that it undermines the concept of democracy and is counter productive to the persuasion of people who don't have a clue about greening up. For instance, I am currently persuading a community to adopt a more expensive but longer term notion of building a community development in a highly green design. When these type of projects have come up in the past the "community" reverts to cheap - and cheap and nasty is what the community gets with very little value in any sense.  Difficult as well cause it is building something green over and above the slack building regulations that aren't green enough yet nationally. People tend to point to those and just say that is all that is needed. So it is a real act of conversion.

Now will I be associated with Green as a matter of reasonable thought? This particular part of the world is  pretty reactive anyway to any new suggestion. I'll soon find out. Extinction Crisis might have been a better title.  Same protest - word change might make people disrupted not react so much  or create  an Us and Them dynamic and be more persuasive.

In reply to removed user:

You pontificate to the rest of us declaring that we are not very supportive of actions to reduce (or ideally eliminate) climate change.

I just looked at your recent climbs list on your profile;

Southern Spain, then Britain, then southern France.

Pot, kettle and black come to mind (or did you cycle/paddle to all those venues ?)

In reply to fred99:

I wasnt criticising anyone for their personal carbon footprint. I was saying that I expected climbers to back systemic, government-led change. 

I used fossil fuels to get to those climbing venues. The reason is that the modern world is structured around the consumption of fossil fuels. If there had been a carbon neutral travel option I would've happily paid over the odds to use it but there isn't yet. What we need is for governments to give us those options (and then take away the fossil fuel options).

Individuals' lifestyle choice matters too, but its only part of the picture. Even if every single person stopped flying and became vegan it wouldn't get us to less than 1.5°C warming. 

"Single biggest way to have impact on climate change and other environmental crises is through collective pressure on policymakers to act in our interest rather than special interests."

-Michael E Mann, climate scientist.

If you're interested in my personal lifestyle changes I've stopped flying. I refused to fly when my work asked me to, did the meetings over Skype instead. I switched my house to green energy, swapped out the gas hob for induction. I've stopped eating cow. Cut down on other meat a lot. I'm saving up to get an electric motorbike for when my 19 year old car dies.

So I do a few things. I could definitely do more and travelling to climb is one of the things I still do and feel bad about doing it. I dont think you would have detected a holier than thou attitude from me because I dont have one. We are all caught in a environmentally unfriendly system and it's not our fault. While are able to mitigate the effects somewhat, we cant fully escape it without government action. That's what the protesters are lobbying for.

In reply to MargieB:

The message is fine but it is being delivered by the wrong people in the wrong way.

While many of us in the UKC demographic will have a lot of sympathy with them it is not us who need persuaded. It is the reactionary UKIP supporter that needs persuaded. Associating action on climate change with a bunch of hippies stopping people getting home from work is only going to alienate those people.

As an aside people at work today were talking about the David Attenborough programme on climate change, extinction rebellion weren't mentioned.

In reply to Jimbo W:

jonathan pie, one of his best - 

youtube.com/watch?v=obFNcN0Zc7k&

In reply to Removed User:

I disagree that it's the reactionary UKIP supporters who need to be persuaded. They need to be given a living and working environment in which carbon-free energy is the norm, so there are no carbon-intensive options (or, if there are carbon-intensive options, they are so expensive as to be unaffordable by most people). To do this requires government action to intervene in markets. As another poster pointed out, either in this or another related thread, one significant impediment in the UK is the reliance on private sector electricity generators. The only way in which we will generate sufficient electricity to meet future needs (especially with respect to transport and space heating) will be through the use of nuclear energy. Unfortunately, this is currently very expensive and not a viable business proposition for private sector generators. It will only be through the intervention by government that sufficient generation will be made available. Sadly, UK energy policy in this regard has been woeful over the past few decades, and there is little to suggest we have a government which intends to change course in any significant fashion. 

Of course, it would help if we stopped wasting so much energy. Our housing standards are woefully inadequate, and JIT manufacturing requires the frequent rapid transport of goods, at considerable environmental cost. If carbon costs were taxed at realistic levels, we might see some changes in the way things work. Unfortunately, we have been led down a cheap energy fossil fuel path which will require some considerable industrial disruption to change in any meaningful way. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

My point is that we need all sections of the population to commit to making changes to stop climate change. Without that it will not be possible for politicians to take the necessary but painful steps.

Worse, as seen in the US, it will become a party political issue. Then we're really stuffed.

In reply to Removed User:

Right there, in 17 words, you said it exactly right in my opinion

Anyway, higher awareness of the message has now been raised

In reply to Removed User:

And my point is that is for governments everywhere to show leadership and take decisive action in the national and international interest, transcending party politics. 

And as an aside, we are now too late to stop climate change, far, far too late. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Yes, I agree with you.

But how do we get people to vote for it?

In reply to Jimbo W:

ALL the BREXIT THREADS HAVE VANISHED! hooray

In reply to Removed User:

You don't wait for people to vote for it. Governments are there to lead and to act in the national interest. This, above all else, should be one area of policy where all the major parties are trying to outdo the others with their energy policies. Any party which does not have robust environmental and energy policies is doomed to fail - to paraphrase Mark Carney: 'If parties fail to adjust to this new world, they will fail to exist.'

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

 And the idea of Informed local assemblies to promote Green ideas- well, "informed" is hopefully deep because a lot of local "assemblies" of various descriptions which are the norm aren't particularly informed but very run of the mill. That is the problem locally.There is always that very active, entrenched grouping which are sincere but follow a culture that is not intrinically green as yet- It is really slow to change a culture at the bottom.

In reply to removed user:

So in summary. You know you could do more, but unless forced you won't bother. Are you typical of these protesters? With their take way coffees and plastic drinks bottles, or flying from la to read a poem? 

I suspect many people against the protest are greener than those on it. 

In reply to summo:

"I suspect many people against the protest are greener than those on it". 

No, I don't think so.

In reply to Phil1919:

They'd have to be pretty green to offset Emma's first class long flight though. The ones who've popped up in the media interviews aren't exactly examples of people practising what they preach.  

In reply to summo:

I was wondering about Emma's flight class from LA to London. The media say she was in Business Class, THE HYPOCRITE, Business has a much higher carbon footprint than economy class, especially long haul

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/feb/17/business-class-car...

In reply to Jimbo W:

Me and Mrs Num Num have mitigated for our carbon footprint jet setting lifestyle by moving to a house a further twenty metres above current mean sea levels.

In reply to profitofdoom:

She could have had the moral high ground by starting a protest in LA. But that might have damaged her career or maybe lots of people there know what her daily lifestyle is really like, when she's not sticking on her dungarees to look all hip with the kids. 

In reply to Phil1919:

Ok that is good news, thanks. Yeah at the least people are talking, and I haven't heard anyone denying the science which is progress.

In reply to removed user:

Yes. That really is progress.

In reply to birdie num num:

My criteria for a house was > 100 m absolute above current mean sea levels. Don’t want to be too near the new coast.   Although the influx of south people will rather spoil things.  Perhaps we need a wall along the new shorelines and dry middle bit along the A66/A685.

In reply to Postmanpat:

What’s worse ? A disruption to people “standards of living” or making the planet hostile to humans in less than a century ? Seems to me you’ve got the wrong priorities.

It’s also not clear that decarbonising necessarily means having a significantly lower standard of living. It mostly just means changing some stupid habits.

In reply to summo:

Jesus H try and find a healthier outlet for your hatred!

In reply to summo:

You've basically created a stereotype in your mind to justify disliking them, with no concept of how green most of them are, or the people against them protesting.

One actress flying from LA hardly means it's all of them!

Take a step back and look at your thinking....

In reply to Drexciyan:

I get the impression that the healthier thing is less ill feeling, since the 'target' for it doesn't know unless we tell them in the end.

A cynical teenage friend once talked about thinking 'Hang on a minute! They won't know unless I send them hate mail or something...and that would be mental.'

In reply to Jimbo W:

https://www.indy100.com/article/extinction-rebellion-climate-change-protest...

"A study by King's College London into the quality of the air in the capital during the Extinction Rebellion protests has found that nitrogen dioxide concentrations have dropped in several locations where protests are taking place."

In reply to elsewhere:

Not surprising. Traffic free city centres. No traffic within 100m of schools. Plenty measures can be implemented that will get people walking just that bit more. The health benefits of the exercise alone would justify the legislation. 

In reply to Jimbo W:

Now I'm starting to wonder about the abilities of Extinction Rebellion to think or talk clearly and realistically – latest*, they say they'll stop demonstrating if their 3 demands are met, one of which is to “reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025” (see their website, and *statements today Sunday):

[1] This means, in the UK, DRASTIC and very severe, or complete, cuts in fossil fuel (oil, coal, gas) use: almost all electricity will have to come from wind and solar - plus virtually no more diesel or petrol vehicles, no flying for pleasure (maybe business too), no or fewer truck deliveries, little or drastically reduced shipping: all 6 years from now. Tourism (internal and external), services, and education are crucial to the UK economy - will you stop tourists and business people and students flying in in their jumbos? What about supermarkets? Food supplies? Airport staff? Hospitals? And another big one - heating homes (and other buildings), cooking with gas?

[2] The UK changes will make hardly any difference on a global scale - “greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025” has to be global. Extinction Rebellion, what are you doing to bring the main polluters of this world, i.e. China, India and others, into line? If you do nothing, will they fall into line? What about the USA, South America, the rest of Asia, Africa, Europe, Russia? Etc.?

In reply to profitofdoom:

That's what they're saying about the UK? 

I used to wonder about this, what difference each country or individual was doing would make. If all we wait for the rest to act while saying 'What about  them?' - none of us will, but if some of us take the initiative, there's more (moral) pressure on the rest to. We simply don't have time to say 'What about them?'.

We either act, hoping the rest do, or we don't and we're fucked. It's like it being 5 minutes to midnight.

In reply to Timmd:

Moral pressure - OK - do you really think that will work on [1] the USA - On 1 June 2017 Donald Trump announced that the U.S.would cease all participation in the 2015 Paris Agreement on climate change mitigation. Trump stated that "The Paris accord will undermine (the U.S.) economy," and "puts (the U.S.) at a permanent disadvantage." Or [2] on China?

In reply to profitofdoom:

We don't know how long Trump is going to be in power, so, do we not act because he currently is, and then after somebody else gets elected, say 'Oops, we thought he was going to stay and didn't do anything as a result' - what kind of approach would that be?

If you look into what China is actually doing, they're putting huge resources into shifting away from coal fired power stations and into developing renewable energy technology,  they're still using fossil fuels, which is to be expected given the size of the country and population and the place they've started from, but by no means are they dragging their feet towards a shift away from carbon. The perception of China as a country getting it's energy from coal without any concern for climate change and the environment is out of date. It's still a horrible government, but in that respect they're doing the right things.

In global terms, we simply *have* to act towards a shift away from carbon.

In reply to Timmd:

Shifting away? China is now greatly INCREASING the production of power through coal. You can try this article, "China coal power building boom sparks climate warning":

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

China is now also building plenty of coal-powered stations outside China, you can look at this article, "China-backed coal projects prompt climate change fears". The article also talks about the already well-known effect of such stations on global warming:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46310807

In reply to profitofdoom:

Fancy that, I'm out of date it seems. I notice you didn't reply to my point about not acting because Trump is currently in power (and won't always be) though.

Edit: Moving away from the global perspective, don't you think 'What they're (not) doing means we're doomed, so we shouldn't act, even though it'll make our environmental quality on a local level worse' is rather a self sabotaging approach, to do with quality of life in the UK in the long term? Cancer clusters and other health issues which tend to be linked to poorer air quality, and soil contamination as well comes to mind - but there'll be other things too.

In reply to Timmd:

Oh, come on disliker, if you don't agree, explain why, rather than press dislike.

Ha ha, this is disliked, too. Thanks for enlightening me to the wisdom of your counter argument(s). Negative emotions can be bad for one's health.  

In reply to profitofdoom:

We have an old saying "Just because the people down the road are dicks don't mean its ok to be a dick"

If we sit around waiting for everyone else to make a move then we are screwed.

Actually we are probably screwed anyway because scientists have been saying all this for years and no one (in power) has given a shit. Even so it's probably worth another 20 years of life if we actually try and do something.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Even if we 'are' screwed in terms of climate change, fossil fuels do have related health problems where they're produced, and used as fuel. A large group of family friends set up a housing commune/cooperative near to a motorway in the early 80's, and the seemingly high rate of cancer among them as they've entered their 60's and 70's has set myself and my Dad wondering a little. It's hard to know how much is down to their love of boozing and partying - as often seems to be the case in baby boomers who enjoyed the 60's, but the proximity of the motorway has only increased any chances of cancer as they've got older.

We're either not doomed, doomed, or doubly doomed, aiming for one of the first 2 seems like a plan!

In reply to Timmd:

So why don't they protest at power stations, oil refineries, chemical plants, herbicide manufacturers, car manufacturers, all airports, shopping malls  etc..a coordinated effort where all the activists travel only to their nearest source of mass pollution, thereby keeping their own footprint down.

It's not as nice as a week in London, and don't say that is where the politicians are, because they aren't. They are all on holiday. 

In reply to summo:

the mean-spirited criticisms shown by you and others are rather sad..

In reply to summo:Honest Honestly? Because standing around outside a factory somewhere is ineffective.  Choke that factories money supply and it will soon change

Profit of doom : charity begins at home and so does cleaning up your mess

In reply to summo:

Could it be, that rather than it being a nice week in London, efforts to combat climate change will have a knock on effect to do with what you list, and the capital city having the status is does makes it a good place to focus on in drawing attention to the issue?

Also, what is your problem with people protesting about the biggest threat to humanity, exactly? 

In reply to Timmd:

None. I just gave you a list of places they could blockade. Best wait until Emma has landed though before blocking Heathrow. 

In reply to summo:

Yes, and I explained why the capital city is a good place to focus on. So, you're just a grumpy person...fair enough.

In reply to malk:

I'd have more respect for them if the Muppets had not blocked or super glued themselves to public transport which is largely electric. 

In reply to Timmd:

But it won't change anything, decision makers aren't inconvenienced. Politicians will be enjoying a sunset outside a Cotswold pub, city of London bankers will be at their second home in Cornwall. 

In reply to summo:

You're very good at painting picture out of your imagination about why it's a bad idea.

In reply to Timmd:

I just think if they were a bit less amateurish they could have done so much better. Pre briefed people ready to engage with the media, with clear points, evidence   etc.  ? 

In reply to profitofdoom:

Unfortunately I agree with you. It is so easy to protest and demonstrate and whip up public support ( ideally with a few "celebrities"), but without a meaningful alternative plan that is achievable and realistic, the protest can never be taken seriously by those in power.

There is also democracy, we believe in democracy. Any government trying to impose these changes in short time with major shortages to the population will be out, replaced by the opposite.

In reply to Timmd:

Totally agree

In reply to summo:

Thinking further on this thread, and your criticisms, and the ecological farming you do in Sweden, and having a property here in the UK still. It struck me that if you ever fly between the UK and Sweden, you're possibly undoing any good you achieve in Sweden which might benefit the climate, or the ecology there, because of how temperature changes can affect how different species thrive - or not. Whatever chances you're increasing for species which need a niche habitat, would be undone very easily and quickly by climate change, with the height at which aircraft emissions are released increasing their impact. As somebody who has forgone flying because of it's impact on the climate, it arguably gives me grounds to ask you why you didn't decide to be based in the UK for your very worthwhile farming, and what grounds you have to be so critical, but I won't because we're all hypocrites when it comes to the environment, which most definitely includes yourself, as much as it does me.

Very few of us are well placed to judge others...

In reply to summo:

That's a very fair point. I'd missed this before my longer post about flying and what have you. Consider it retracted.

In reply to Timmd:

Hi again, I didn't reply because I'm in the Far East this month and 8 hours ahead of you, it was 1 AM and I had to sleep. About Trump, good point. Regarding "don't you think 'What they're (not) doing means we're doomed, so we shouldn't act, even though it'll make our environmental quality on a local level worse' is rather a self sabotaging approach", yes, but I never said we shouldn't act

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I never said we should sit around waiting, I just pointed out the consequences of Extinction Rebellion's 6-year timetable for reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025

We have to act

In reply to wbo:

I never said we should do nothing, I just pointed out [1] the consequences of Extinction Rebellion's 6-year timetable for reducing greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025, and [2] that global warming needs global action

We in the UK have to act

In reply to Moley:

I totally agree with you and my FIRST thought when Extinction Rebellion started the London protests was - 'Why don't they join The Green Party (or their own party if they don't like them) and come to power at the next election and then implement their plans? - We're a democracy and that's our way, and the right way'

In reply to profitofdoom:

I think Extinction Rebellion have done some good, and some harm. With a bit of perspective and when the heat of the protests dies down people will think, where are we now? They've raised a tremendous amount of awareness and thinking; but they've harmed their cause with blocking the Tube and buses/ Oxford Circus and stopping millions (I believe) of Londoners getting to work, smashing bits of the Shell building, gluing themselves to trains, gluing themselves to Corbyn's fence (though that was amusing and not a bad idea), the "hippy" dance (not my words) on Waterloo Bridge, Emma Thompson, and their totally unrealistic and careless call to “reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025”. And their lack of any democratic political action, e.g. through the Green Party or by forming their own party (see my post above)

I support their cause but not their methods

In reply to Timmd:

If you look at my posts i used the word hypocrite myself. I do sport, it's non essential etc. 

I don't visit our old UK home. I pay the agency 10% commission to do that and it's taken a few years training them. As i said before we fly, once every 12-18ths to the UK and it is purely a selfish family thing. 

I obviously have worked in the UK. I couldn't do what we do here in he UK without a lot of forest too.  The forest pays the bills. 

Plus it's not the job. It's the society and its focus on what I consider more important . I'm quite happy to pay more in tax, so on average (not always) state services are better. It's cleaner, arguably better open access regulations, no end of sports facilities. Etc. Etc. 

But of course there is always more we can do.

As an aside I was trying to find a decent carbon footprint calculator. Most are so dire and basic, where the pinnacle of home construction is double glazing etc.. 

In reply to profitofdoom:

Well I agree with that. It will not happen in that time scale