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Climber - @KevinClimate on Climate Change

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 LeeWood 27 Jun 2020

@Kevin Climate is Kevin Anderson of Manchester. He is also a keen member of the climbing community. In the year 1999 he was my principal climbing partner - we did Big Groove together at Gogarth.

BIG exposure here in this new Guardian article - his life is testimony to conviction - has not stepped on a plane since 2004 !

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/26/leading-scientist-criti...

Recurrent theme - the wealthy - not only the ones who put the brakes on change via the lobbies - but also the biggest polluters. 

Q: “Globally the wealthiest 10% are responsible for half of all emissions, the wealthiest 20% for 70% of emissions.

2
J1234 28 Jun 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

Thank you for sharing that is a good article. As with all good articles it raises questions, may I ask 2.

  1. What percentage of EU citizens are in the Global wealthiest 10% and how is this spread across Europe. ie, I would suggest that a large or very large percentage in Germany, UK, France, Netherlands are, whilst a much lower percentage are in Poland, Hungary, Spain and Portugal.
  2. Because I am constantly challenging my own CO2 footprint due to climbing, how does your friend manage his.

One of the greatest problems I would think we will have with dealing with CC is that people do not like criticism and as soon as you criticise someone they immediately go on the defensive, and stop listening. So you can hear a person who is onboard with that something needs doing, however if you mention that they have driven to Scotland 3 times in the last 2 months and flown to El Chorro to climb, they straight away get defensive and justify why they are not the problem and its someone else to blame, I know I do this.

Like I said good article.

Post edited at 10:14
OP LeeWood 28 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

> What percentage of EU citizens are in the Global wealthiest 10% and how is this spread across Europe. ie, I would suggest that a large or very large percentage in Germany, UK, France, Netherlands are, whilst a much lower percentage are in Poland, Hungary, Spain and Portugal.

This could be a starting place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_the_number_of_millionair...

Germany, UK, France, Netherlands rank 5, 4, 6, 11

Poland, Hungary, Spain and Portugal rank 32, NR, 10, 32 

However when you shuffle by millionaires as pop density - v different order

Neth 4, UK 9, FR 14, Ge 16, Sp 22, Port 27, Pol 30, 

This latter gives an idea of wealth spread - inequality

J1234 28 Jun 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

Thank you that is interesting. However it still seems to shift the emphasis to someone else, in this case "millionaires", not that I am suggesting this is your intention. This https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/07/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-in-the-riches... suggests that a person needs a net worth of circa £74K to be in the top 10%, which I would suggest that many people in the UK will have or be on to track to have as they pay down their mortgage.
A difficulty seems to be to get people to accept responsibility and not shift it to some nebulous other. The person just a bit richer or China or, someone else, and as I said if you push it slightly it is seen as criticism. The first chapter of this book https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/how-to-win-friends-and-influen... discusses criticism and I cited it in an essay on this very subject. Because Climate Change is IMHO about human behaviour as much as anything, therefore to solve the problem we need to understand that.

Post edited at 12:00
 Paul Evans 28 Jun 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

Yes, a good article. Surprisingly tricky to find out what income level qualifies as "global top 10%", but this helps - https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality the "daily income per capita" graph for 2015 data suggests that it lies between $50 and $100 per day per person.

Paul

 bouldery bits 28 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

If you're reading this, you're easily in that wealthiest 20%.

J1234 28 Jun 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> If you're reading this, you're easily in that wealthiest 20%.

Probably, but that is not the top 10%, therefore in the context of that article it gives me justification to pass the buck, so to speak. My point is that too many people pass the buck. I am suggesting that people need to accept that they are part of the problem ,and that they are harming others, and that action they could take can help, and that they and their families will not lose out to freeloaders if they make sacrifices.

OP LeeWood 28 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

> However it still seems to shift the emphasis to someone else, in this case "millionaires", not that I am suggesting this is your intention. 

In the context of this post - no - I was not trying to slam the millionaires again. We westerners are largely the polluters in the global panorama. But we are handicapped and dis-empowered in doing the right thing.

The handicap has historical origins but is largely perpetuated by the millionaires ... or more likely the multi-millionaires / ultra-rich from the Davos-stratosphere.

To do the 'right thing' w r t travel we must accept that all has been made too easy / cheap for us (as per energy, water, consumer goods ...), but that worse, air travel has been made cheaper than rail. Bus can be cheap but services have been cur because car is just too convenient.

At the age of 30 I just accepted all opportunities as given - and the world my treasure-trove; but with age comes reflection and the recognition that all those marvellous elements of C21st are not available to all - and only possible at the expense of others.

I haven't been in touch with @KevinClimate for a few years so can't say how he manages his CO2 footprint - maybe he'll join in ?! For myself I limit air travel to one short hop per year, and I try to reason out shorter journeys (driving to the supermarket for a bottle of wine + bag of crisps ! ) . 

It's hard to know what is reasonable because it's all so relative, but if we always look for car-sharing opps and curb travel boredom then we can all make a difference. I have a deep need 'to go somewhere new' - human nature or consumer fashion ? and old known crags tend to lose their spice - but often as not once I get there, I take pleasure in repeating old favorites.

Finally, getting out to *any* crag is several factors more interesting than climbing indoors - at least on my local walls where routes are typically changed 2x per year.

1
 bouldery bits 28 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

Can't disagree with that! 

OP LeeWood 29 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

> I am suggesting that people need to accept that they are part of the problem ,and that they are harming others, and that action they could take can help

But which action ? The question wrangles on - individual v collective action. There is no doubt that individually we can all make an impact *if those actions reach a collective mass*; even if it doesn't - it shouldn't stop us 'doing the right thing'.

BUT the larger action to take must be through government. The larger action is not just switching off the lights when we leave a room - but voting the right changes into reality when the elections come round, and in between the elections, communicating the common need for environmental issues and the need to vote ... the personal becomes political !

Interesting to note the links between Anderson and Klein - both outspoken climate commentators. In this interview Anderson seems critical of Klein but to me it's just semantics - what do you think ?

Kevin Anderson on Naomi Klein's "This Changes Everything" 5mins

youtube.com/watch?v=32lXVoBl1QU&

Historically these academic commentators have been compiled statistics and presented their facts - what good has it done - why have we not made the necessary changes ?

Why have we failed to act on climate change? Naomi Klein | Guardian Live 5mins

youtube.com/watch?v=jR5fzXeCUDU&

In the year when 'we' are so keen to assert the science of saving lives - it becomes ever more significant to examine this question - the science of saving lives has been documented and exposed now - for decades ! 

 Andy Hardy 29 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

Are you giving up flying then Steve?

J1234 29 Jun 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Can't disagree with that! 


Well try harder.

J1234 29 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

This year I was being a total selfish eco terrorist, however my life plan involved a world tour next year by train, then go and live in Spain or France, so that I do not have to fly.
If a person wants to climb, then they should consider living in a climbing area for eco reasons.

J1234 29 Jun 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

I will look at that later, doing some work now.

 jkarran 29 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Evans:

> Yes, a good article. Surprisingly tricky to find out what income level qualifies as "global top 10%", but this helps - https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality the "daily income per capita" graph for 2015 data suggests that it lies between $50 and $100 per day per person.

Interesting, I had the same question and stumbled upon the same chart and conclusion.

jk

OP LeeWood 04 Jul 2020
In reply to J1234:

> What percentage of EU citizens are in the Global wealthiest 10% 

> Because I am constantly challenging my own CO2 footprint due to climbing, how does your friend manage his.

More answers here ? democracynow.org in discussion with Kevin Anderson & Greta Thunberg

Climate Scientist: World’s Richest Must Radically Change Lifestyles to Prevent Global Catastrophe

youtube.com/watch?v=7ElUIm-bd9Y&

30s in: (climate change) Greta Thunberg demonstrates more clarity and leadership in one speech than quarter of a century of combined contribution of the world leaders 

2mins in: (on travel) I don't look at the flights any more - I just ask  - how can I get there without flying

13mins in: (inequality impact) If the richest 10% reduced their carbon footprint to the level of the average european - this would cut ONE THIRD of global emissions (without the 90% doing anything)

J1234 06 Jul 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

Perhaps you can help me on this.

I have just finished a book called Bury the Chains, it is not just about the abolition of slavery, but also about the history of political campaigns.

What I struggle to understand is this. Why is it that people who I admire and respect, who  consider slavery abhorrent, cannot make the connection that their actions today vis a Vis climate damage are as bad the actions of people who profited from slavery, in fact worse, in that the people of the 1700s did not know slavery was wrong, but these people know, clearly that their actions are.

I just do not understand.

 mutt 06 Jul 2020
In reply to J1234:

> the people of the 1700s did not know slavery was wrong, <

a bold statement, but yes those who clearly 'know better' now are choosing to not know. I suspect that was very much the same in 1700.

 mutt 06 Jul 2020
In reply to LeeWood:

so it turns out that I know some of these rich people, and it seems to me that the problem is that there is no adequate reward for doing well that does not involve massive carbon emissions. For instance I know a self made man who started working in an office and is now the company owner who brings home ~ £5M a year. What does he have to spend that on? Its all right for Bill Gates because he can bring an end to preventable disease. What does £5M buy you if you aren't into horses? He defaults to getting the latest super-car every few months. occasionally he buys a Tesla. Having money defaults always to buying stuff. Stuff has to be made and carbon gets emitted. Perhaps someone needs to start a company that helps simple common millionaires spend their money responsibly. Yes I think I will try that one on. Wish me luck!

OP LeeWood 06 Jul 2020
In reply to J1234:

Good point ! I think that people profit from the remoteness of their actions - either by location or time-future - in order to act selfishly. But I would argue that this is not just evident in environmental abuse, it is still evident in elitist - exploitative - inequitable treatment of human lives - in which 'we' hold peoples of the developing world slaves to the greed of western consumerism. Our wealth is still - as ever - supplied through the enslaving of whole nations - more evident than ever on the african continent, where people of a colour - as ever, do our bidding, enchained by manipulation of exchange rates and interest on national debts. In spite of debt relief and foreign aid programs, africa is held in poverty.

Q: We find that the countries of Africa are collectively net creditors to the rest of the world, to the tune of $41.3 billion in 2015. [1] Thus much more wealth is leaving the world’s most impoverished continent than is entering it.

https://www.cadtm.org/Honest-Accounts-2017-How-the-world

 bouldery bits 06 Jul 2020
In reply to J1234:

> Well try harder.

Oh, right well... Here goes:

Strawman

Where's your evidence?

A corporation funded whatever the thing you've mentioned is.

Your viewpoint is deliberately narrow minded 

You would say that so that you can support your argument 

I might imply that you are unduly priveledged in some way.

There is a broader plot by wokes / snowflakes / tree huggers / Nazis / Communists / greengrocers / Tory Voters / HS2 contractors to manipulate this information you have provided and thus, I declare it null and void.

I will likely suggest that what I have infered about your line of work means you can't possible understand the issue without an inherent bias.

Does that help?

All the best,

BB

Post edited at 23:15
OP LeeWood 06 Jul 2020
In reply to mutt:

Good post, but I must take exception to your reference to BG

> Its all right for Bill Gates because he can bring an end to preventable disease.

The philanthrocapitalist looks to help people 'while making a profit' - BG is no exception. In brief he is noted for promoting 'innapropriate technology' (eg. in developing countries), choosing latest pricier vaccines over old reliable ones, and with complicity in exploition for drugs/vaccines trials - subjects used as guinea pigs in the open air laboratory.

In the 1st instance his foundation 'gives' typically - to a pharmaceutical company - in which he holds shares; and by this means all donations feed back into his own pocket. 

https://www.grain.org/en/article/5910-under-the-cover-of-philanthropy-a-mon...


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