UKC

Young Ms. Kriko, has recently won an award at her school for KS3 pupils.

So that's 2 or 3 years worth of school pupils in old money.

The school start of the evening with a teacher telling the massed crowd of proud parents how important it is for "effort" no so much the outcome but sustained and constant effort. Then how the school give unique once in a lifetime opportunities, such as camping, and a trip to South Africa. "We're doing very well in our results, but so are other schools, so we must redouble our efforts to strive for perfection". The final icing on this monologue is, "to learn pupils need to be at school, if you're not in school you can't learn"!!!

It then comes to the presentation of the prizes, about 20-30 children from each year.

Their names are on a power-point, projected onto the screen in the auditorium, The first slide is projected and is partly in alphabetical order and partly not, three columns of kids names, the other three slides of varying order including one almost random. ( a minor niggle but a little effort and it's much better presentation, and easier for the audience)

One of the teachers proceeds to read out the names and reason for the prize (which isn't shown on the projection).

June Abbot

"June Abbot, for excellence in Maths and English"

Jim Brown

"Jim Brown, for increasing his reading grade by three whole years"

Mark Visectski

"Mark, for leadership skill in captaining the football team"

What no attempt at his surname?

And so it continued, any foreign or hard to pronounce surname was skipped altogether.  Probably around 10 pupils out of 80 - 100 ish.

It was so obvious, that me and my missus played a game of "Spot the Name Dodge" with successive power-point slides.

One poor kid got missed altogether because they had a difficult first and second name!

So much for making a great effort etc.

At the end I went to the acting head, and congratulated then on the evening and asked if I could make a suggestion.

"yes of course"

"well it would be nice if you could have made the effort to find out how to pronounce difficult names, or at least attempt pronunciation. By not even bothering you've created a whole raft of second class pupils within this school".

"I don't think we've done that, but I'm sorry you feel that way."

"To me it's as if you don't really count if you've got a hard to pronounce name, couldn't she have written them phonetically on the sheet she was reading from?"

"Would you have been able to pronounce them?" !!

"No I wouldn't, but it wasn't my job to do that, if it was I'd have taken the time to find out".

"I'll pass this on and try to make sure it doesn't happen in the future."

Rant over

I found the whole thing demeaning and embarrassing, and most of all lacking in effort!

I wonder how that lovely actress Carrie Coon fared on school prizegiving  days.

I agree, if they couldn't be bothered to do it properly, they should have used first names only for all kids. 

Appalling.

At my daughters graduation they clearly had my an effort to practise any awkward name before hand. Well done for saying something.

So teachers in the school who will have known some of the pupils concerned for three years, been their subject teachers, form teachers and heads of year,  can't pronounce the pupils names?

Not acceptable at all. It also doesn't really fit with the opening statement about effort.

I'm not having a go at teachers. They have a bloody difficult job, Mrs Tringa was a teacher all her working life and I taught for over 10 years, but this is not on.

Dave

I cant believe the inability of a teacher to be able to correctly pronounce the surname would cause a child to feel 'second class', kids generally have more about them. Like the idea that, in the circumstances, they do away with all surnames (summo), a good idea that may not of occurred to the organisers. I'm sure the teachers who were organising the prize giving were delighted by your helpful intervention.

[...]

I would comment further but I don’t want to break UKC’s dislike button.

That is a shocker, my name (Wladischzjhowkz Leppricxhzennz) was always pronounced correctly in skool

Whilst I agree with you that not saying difficult to pronounce children's names doesn't match the stated aims of effort, I have to question your motivations for posting on here.

You say you complained at the time and they will no doubt take it on board, so what's to gain from shaming them on a climbing forum?

Shurely they have not been shamed - because they have not been named??

I bet everyone at the school would love it if they knew that you’d plastered names of their kids all over the internet.

Are you questioning what I posted or that I misheard, and they did pronounce the children's names?

I've just got the forms for my son's graduation, they ask for the name and a phonetic spelling, if you think it might be useful.

Good idea, but they called a number out, for special prizes after reading the names, so a lot of John's would have been confused.

You may not be able to believe it, but it's symptomatic of people not caring, or bothering to find out, which might be fine in some instances, but I don't think it's acceptable in a school and it smacks of laziness. Especially directly after the pep talk on effort.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44601199

I didn't intervene, by the way, either. I had a quite word at the end with the acting head, in the hope they see what their actions were promoting and hopefully it won't happen again.

I'm not sure I follow you.

Is it OK if I call you Waddi Leprechaun ? 

Merely making conversation, not shaming anyone, unless of course you know where I live and which school my daughter goes to or you happen to be in earshot of the conversation I had with the acting head, or you happened to be there and  picked up on the same issue but thought it didn't matter.

Either way, I'm not expecting anything from it. It's just bants init?

Yes, that is fine. Or Jim

The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

In which case they need to get grip. They must have seen these kids and their names on paper for 200+ days a year and probably spoken to their parents too etc..

This is why the education system is f**ked. If it becomes a competition between schools who measure success by a set of performance results created by the government then someone is missing the point.

Jim it is then Mr. Leprechaun

I work with a bloke, who gets called Jimmy, because he calls everyone else who's name he can't remember Jimmy, it's very confusing.

It's probably more symptomatic of teachers having a lot on their plates and judging that their time could be more usefully spent educating and supporting all the children.

Not intervene ? You claim to have said

"well it would be nice if you could have made the effort to find out how to pronounce difficult names, or at least attempt pronunciation. By not even bothering you've created a whole raft of second class pupils within this school"

Couldn't agree more, which was why it was so embarrassing, give the list, I'd have looked down and asked either the pupil or individual form teacher, how do you pronounce "Switzerkoller" and then written it on the form phonetically. Barring that if I didn't have a clue, I'd have attempted something, anything rather than not bothering. Maybe with an apology for not pronouncing it correctly.

Intervening implies interruption, you might not mean it that way. But just to make it clear at the end of the proceeding I spoke to the acting head, I thought that was clear enough.

If I didn't say anything, then it might happen again next year, at least now they might be able to see they've let some of their pupil down a bit.

Been like that since the mid eighties. One of the reasons some of us bailed out early (after 33 years...)

Maybe learning the names of all kids and not just the special ones, might increase the given teachers respect and their pupils would work harder and listen more in general. It's not rocket science, just basics. 

I know, and agree, my Missus is on the governors board of my daughters previous school. If some children don't take the exams, they still count them in the overall count, but score them zero, this obviously brings the average down. Yet the children who don't take the exams are the ones who need the most help, problem kids.

So in some schools I can see these kids would not be welcome, because of the effects on the grading system.

The head mistress told her, one of the best experiences of her career is taking one of these "troublesome" pupils and getting him to read and have some pride in his work. OK he didn't sit the exam and brought the numbers down, but she made a difference for this lad and obviously has helped him.

There are nine kids who didn't take the exam, which affected their overall average, which as you say looks bad, but in reality is something good. the general public will probably never know that though, especially if you concentrate on statistics.

I wouldn't send my children to a school that behaved in the way that you described.

I would agree with that statement

however I would suggest that your (my version of english) intervention was of the variety that saps good teachers of the desire to work harder for the benefit of your child, I just don't think your comments, at the conclusion of the  prize giving, would produce the effect you intended.

And if you measure the school's quality because they shy away from pronouncing a few difficult surnames, you are also missing the point. 

What would you do then? Private school - I can't afford that.

My daughter has many friends and is doing well at the school, so why change he life because one person can't be arsed?

On the whole it a reasonable school, someone made a mistake, that's all. I happen to think it's quite an omission and reflects very badly on the organising staff. Hopefully it will be corrected, I'm surprised it wasn't addressed before hand, which was why it was so embarrassing.

I'm sure many people wouldn't have even noticed, the school has an ethos of inclusion and respect, obviously this was a glaring example of missing that target.

One of my problems was the acting head didn't seem to realise it was a problem, and tried to defend it by asking if I could have pronounced them. I can say hand on heart if I was standing up in from of 300 people handing out prizes I'd have done my homework and found out how to pronounce them, and at least attempted something.

What would you do then? Say nothing?

A number of teachers are doing the same, sadly it's usually the good ones who are the ones who are leaving, leaving the automata behind.

But it's about exclusivity and effort, and without the pep talk ten minutes previous it might not have grated so much. I don't judge the whole school over it, I just very surprised, that it happened, that when I spoke to the acting head she sort of tried to deflect away from it, that someone couldn't have helped her out. They have a Polish teacher in the school! (most of the problem names where Polish - but not all)

What you described goes far beyond one person not being bothered.

If that's the way a school functions in front of a room full of parents then what is allowed to slide away from public scrutiny?

The teacher's response to you was a disgrace and possibly indicative of the way the school views its pupils.

However, you seem to be happy with how the school usually operates.

I wish your daughter every success.

Thank you, there's not much in the way of other schools, and as I say on the whole it's not that bad a school, which is why this stood out so much I suppose. Hopefully my mentioning it will be enough for it not to happen again.

It might not have been how you read it, there was only one teacher reading out the names, not the form teachers (not sure they were there, I hope not because they could have told her the names).  I'm pretty certain the form teachers can pronounce the children's names, I'll check up on that

It's an academy, and I'm guessing here but, they're very focused on results, rather than education, which we're aware of, so try to compensate for with my daughter and point out when things don't sit right.

The section about having to be there to learn, I'm sure comes from needing good attendance figures, rather than to do with honesty.

They do become indoctrinated though, as a "once in a lifetime" experience I was willing to take her out of school for the RAF 100 fly past in London, but she would  have none of it. Which is sort of good and bad

Either thought up a better line or waited until I had

the teachers you criticized had worked a full shift and then stayed to award prizes to your kids, just not the time to accuse them of ' second class citizens ' if you want them to make an 'effort'

I think you are over-egging the pudding. From what I have gathered, the school did not display an endemic ignorance about pupils' names; instead, they chose to sidestep the ones which might have caused an issue of correctness regarding pronunciation. I suspect the same thing goes on all over the country and will be an increasing problem as the makeup of our population continues to change. If the school is guilty of anything at all, it is of not wanting to cause offence, but it has obviously backfired. I would be interested to know if any of the slighted families made a complaint.

Your reading a lot into this one error, maybe when people make errors we should occasionally try to understand and support rather than close down, after all even Krikoman ( hope I pronounced that correctly) thinks it's a good school.

Krikoman seems happy with the overall performance of the school but what he described is totally unacceptable.

This wasn't a classroom teacher taking a register while meeting the pupils for the first time but a group of KS3 pupils and teachers who will have known them for possibly three years.

By what measure is not knowing how to pronounce the names of your pupils, who you've met, taught and possibly mentored, acceptable?

Not knowing how to pronounce one pupil's name is an error.

What Krikoman described is more than that.

The teacher's response doesn't deserve any support.

Even in my day, in a bog standard comprehensive, teachers addressed pupils by their first names. Their surnames were only normally used in the third person.

I can imagine that it's more difficult nowadays to learn how to pronounce the surnames of an intake which has a lot of foreign surnames in it, so I am still prepared to cut that school a bit of slack. If Krikoman had been a parent whose name was avoided and thus offended by the omission, I would have been a bit more sympathetic.

Either way, as we agree , he seems happy with the school.

Get a f*cking grip man. My partner is a teacher. Their main job is to teach, these award ceremonies are an added bonus, on overtime, for you, and for your child’s benefit. The school will know how to pronounce your child’s surname but perhaps the overworked teacher doing the announcing doesn’t know that pronounciation.

Please get behind the the teaching profession, they are overworked, undervalued and don’t need this kind of petty bollocks.

I've been as guilty as anyone (except the school in question) when it comes to making errors with individual pupils names and no doubt you're right about the increase in foreign names only adding to difficulty in pronunciation.

Hope they cut you some slack

Yes, gone are the days when we only had to worry about names like Cholmondley and Featherstonehaugh..........   

How do you make it to acting head without any concept of basic manners, equality or problem solving?  

In the space of 5 seconds I thought of four different and viable ways to resolve this issue.  Honestly if they can’t (or can’t be bothered) to problem solve this then how the heck are they going to manage the more complex issues they will encounter in their role?

My preferred method is always to ask the individual, as there are many different pronunciations of familiar looking names as well.

Think about it from the view of a minority pupil who may already feel separated/isolated etc. How are they going to feel when singled out in-front of their peers and parents as someone not deserving of a full name?

Its basic manners.  If teachers can’t practice basic manners they have no role in front of any child.

I’m sure I’ll get disliked for this post, but that’s fine.  It reminds me how much work there is to be done.

When you meet a child for the first time and can't pronounce their name then it's wise to ask them how to say it.

After three years you might get away with making the odd mistake but to stand up in front of a large audience and not know how to pronounce many pupils names is asking for criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Indeed!  

I'm guessing heshe has proved themselves to be an effective educator, child carer and administrator over a number of years, however we could dismiss all of that on the reported speech in a climbing forum. 

I don’t think I’m going to enjoy it when Tree, Jr goes to school.  If I heard some absolute crap like that I’d be writing a letter to the chair of the governors.  That is both insulting and undermining to both children and their parents/careers. 

I would expect anyone describable as “competent” at either the first or third of those to have had a bare minimum of EDI training and to have had alarm bells go off in their head at the thought of missing out funny sounding names.  Heck, anyone with basic manners should figure it out.

I know enough bullied teachers to have formed my own opinions on the range of capabilities and personalities that run our schools.  

Of course, completely agree with you

I wonder if the fear was that mispronounciation might be more offensive than omission

It's obviously not an ideal however like you i have on occasion struggled with getting a surname correct, I worked with a lady for about 3 years, a really hard-working talented individual who I respect greatly but I struggled to get a good rendition of her surname.

The defensive approach from the acting head is misguided but the criticism they received

'  Creating 2nd class citizens ' was fairly brutal.

EDI  ?  - I find that slightly offensive, secret language

Also

It's not just teachers that bully teachers

Equality, diversity and inclusion.  Things that all employees have to be aware of when dealing with the public or customers, in order to stay on the correct side of the Equality Act 2010.

I am hoping that someone with more legal experience than me can comment on the EA 2010 perspective of the allegations made in the OP.   My feeling is that there is a case to be made if one or more of those affected wish to claim that they felt disadvantaged or excluded to some degree by being treated less fairly than their peers. It would I suspect be far from a clear cut case.

Personally I would write to the school outlining my concerns and asking what they planned to do to prevent a recourrance.  I wouldn’t consider a legal route unless I exhausted all reasonable dialog with the school and their was a repeat incident.

I’m sure if any of the parents raise their concerns they will be reasonably dealt with, but if I was the head ultimately is the potential legal consequences I would be considering from the moment I saw this guff unfold.  Well, that, the feelings of my students, setting an example of not even bothering to try, basic manners, and exactly how I would open the follow on meeting with the staff member concerned…

Each to their own.  I shouldn’t have used an acronym but I’ve never heard it called offensive or secret before...

Indeed it isn’t, but my perception from talking to quite a few school teachers is that it is more common as almost a management practice in their corner of the profession than mine.  To the point where I start wondering how much the children pick up from the behaviour of some staff.

I’m very clear that in the teaching part of my role, my primary duty is not to teach but is a duty of care under health and safety, equalities and data protection legislation.  At all times they take legal and moral precedence over my teaching activities. In some cases my employer, and in other cases myself are legally accountable to all of these concerns.

Good call, let's tie up the school responding to your moral outrage - in plain English bonkers

Do you really think that a letter to the head briefly outlining my concerns and asking how they intend to address this matter should take up more than an hour or two of a competent administrator’s time?

Make new policy - ask students’ teachers or students directly to give example of pronunciations.   Use this for ceremony.  Reply to parent stating that new policy exists.  I

In the grand scheme of things it’s over before it’s begun, and you no longer run the risk of minority students feeling further marginalised and every person in the room gets to hear a bit more of the variety of names that actually exist in their community.  Quick stop the press moral outrage is destroying our schools…

 In my experience what actually turns these matters from a simple case of defining and implementing best practice into being “tied up” is the ridiculous amount of self-righteous and angry pushback that many people feel compelled to engage in.

I find it hard to believe that you, the person who talked the most sense in the "Revoking UK Citizenship" debate, are now potentially proposing such a big hammer for such a tiny walnut.

I asked before if any of those parents directly affected had been offended enough to make a complaint and since I haven't heard any different, I'm assuming not.

Krikoman took umbrage on their behalf, expressed it on a climbing website and had a fair bit of support. I reckon justice has been served.

I hope you misunderstand what I am writing. I cited my feelings about the legal basis to explain why if I were the headmaster, ultimately it will be my job to care about this.

As a parent, all I would do is to write a simple letter to the headmaster asking them to consider policy for future events such that all children are treated the same, rather than obviously treating children from minority backgrounds differently.

As I said in my (overlapping with yours) post to MFB I would be hopeful this would be resolved in a matter of hours, and that would be the end of it.

I do not think it unreasonable for us all to expect schools to make a reasonable effort to treat people as equally and fairly.  It sets an example to the students.  

As I said, as a parent I would not consider a legal route until all reasonable avenues had been exhausted, and I am sure the school would resolve this almost immediately if brought constructively to their attention.

 If, on the other hand they flat out refused and did the same thing again the next year, I think it then reasonable to consider a more legal route, after exhausting communications with the head and the governors. I can’t see this eventuality happening as people or not this stubborn, but I mention it as it’s the ultimate if unlikely destination a competent head should consider.  Who knows, perhaps one of the children’s parents is a solicitor looking to generate some publicity.  I would imagine the headmaster doing a “Picard face palm” during the ceremony, but for a follow on comment from the OP.

I don’t think I would have been angry or outraged as an audience member, but I would want to see improved practice and would take a constructive step to nudge the school.  

I suspect my child’s name would be spoken just fine. I can’t speak for the children and parents who were treated differently.  I would however be unhappy at the example it sets my daughter; I want her so far as possible to grow up seeing people as - by default - equally deserving of her respect.

I work on some equality and diversity things at my work.  Despite some absolute howlers orders of magnitude beyond this case, I have never sought justice.  I have worked to improve our collective practice.  We all make mistakes, god knows I do.  It’s how we respond to them that matters.

Why do I have to be personally affected before speaking out?

This seems a very strange state of affair to me, surely if something's wrong you speak out against it, whether your directly affected or not. I wouldn't let someone calling Jews or Muslims names without challenging them, because I'm neither Jewish or Muslim.

A wrong is a wrong, and it should be called out, or as in my case pointed out, since I don't think there was any malice involved, just a lack of effort and t forethought.

I was sympathetic, but for brevity, didn't type the whole conversation, it was after being more diplomatic (and I'll admit I'm not the best diplomat) that she asked me if I would be able to pronounce them, that got my back up.

How is it petty bollocks?

Let's say it was a Polish child, who might just be on the outside of society anyway, and then is further disenfranchised, because some lazy teacher can't be arsed to pronounce her name properly, how is that inclusive?

Worse still what example does it set to other pupils?

Worse even more than that, it completely negates the message given not ten minutes previous, about putting "maximum effort" into your school work.

Would your missus think this is acceptable?

I was at my sons graduation ceremony from the University of Bath yesterday. There were 350 or so graduates, some with incredibly long and very complicated names and the dean, or whoever it was who read out the names, had clearly done his homework as he didn't seem to get a single one wrong and read them with beautiful fluency. Your experience is rather shocking.

Email we sent:

Dear Ms XXXXXX

We were very pleased to attend the KS3 Celebration Evening last night. Thank you and the staff for welcoming us on such a sultry evening. It was a wonderful opportunity to highlight the achievements and hard work of our daughter, xxxx, and her fellow pupils.

We were, however, disappointed about one thing.

Also, many surnames of foreign heritage were not even attempted. When a parent raised this issue with you last night after the event, he was asked if he would be able to pronounce them! No...but he didn't know the children and it wasn’t his job to do so. 

Such great efforts were made to compile the award list; a small extra step to review it for difficult names and make phonetic notes to aid pronunciation for Mrs xxxx would have demonstrated the inclusion ethic that is so important in a school with such a diverse population. It really does matter.

On 27 June 2018, the BBC website published an article entitled “Don’t Say My Name Wrong at Graduation”. The article states, in part: 

“It can feel like a slight against someone's cultural identity as well as undermining their big moment.”

(The full article can be found here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44601199)

There were other avoidable errors that marred the evening for some. One Year 7 child (Andre, whose name was in the middle of the middle column of names) was skipped completely when the awards were read out; he attended on his own and left before the end, so didn’t receive his certificate or prize. There were also misspellings on certificates – two I know of were yyy yyyyy  (whose certificate read ‘yyyyyy yyyyyy’) and xxxx Keene (whose surname was spelled ‘Keane’).

The evening started out with a speech about missed opportunities. Getting every child’s name right, orally or in writing, was an opportunity to make every child feel valued and important.

In several cases, it was an opportunity missed.

We very much appreciate the hard work that all NOA staff put in to ensure xxxx  achieves her best.  The support we have received from xxxxx’s teachers this year (particularly Head of Year 7, Mr zzzzz) has been exceptional. As we hope this won't be the last time we have things to celebrate, we wanted to raise awareness of this important issue for consideration before future events.

Their reply;

Dear Mrs xxxxx,

Thank you for your email. I am delighted that yourselves and xxxx enjoyed the KS3 celebration event and that xxxx is enjoying her time at NOA. Thank you also for raising several valid points with us.

Your second point around the pronunciation of surnames is also valid and one I fully agree with. This is an area that we must do better with and I can certainly understand why you have raised it with me. I have read the article with interest and have already spoken to the senior team about future plans. We have a Polish teacher as part of the teaching team and we need to utilise her expertise and make an effort with names. I think you have rightly made the link between this and missed opportunities. I hope at our next event we will get the right and we are now certainly very much aware of this being a priority for us.

Names on certificates have also been corrected; again an error we made and I know this doesn’t make a child ( or their parents) feel valued. I have also spoken to Andre about his exclusion; I think of all the things hearing this upset me the most. In no way di we even intend this to happen, but we need to take the time to make sure all children are celebrated.

All in all, I fully appreciate we have a way to go in getting things fully right. I hope though we have made a start and I appreciate you taking the time to give us feedback

Best Wishes

Yyyy Yyyyy (God know how this is pronounced)

How would I know? They may have all written a letter / email, or they might not have wanted to make waves, or they might have just accepted it as "that's just how it is, get used to it". They might even think they deserve it for being foreigners in a foreign land, who knows. The fact is it upset me, I did something about it, now it's up to the school.

If the same happens again next year, then I'll know they don't give a f*ck and will progress it further, with the board of governors or the academy owners.

It wasn't just me who noticed it when I spoke to other people about it afterwards, they'd noticed too. But that was after the discussion and my rebuke, so it was noticed, if not commented upon to the school.

Interesting BBC article. Now I'm even more understanding of why they dodged the bullet.

I think your email and the schools response are both very sensible.

From you, an acknowledgment of the schools hard work, a request to examine the important detail that you rightly identified as below par.

The response, an  acknowledgment of the error and a commitment to do better in future. 

Not sure this thread would ever have got going if you had started with the contents of the emails rather than the inflammatory ' Creating second class citizens ' statement

I teach about 550 kids a week, most of them are with me for just 60 minutes. I call my own kids by the wrong name often, so unsurprisingly I don't get all 550 memorised. I'm actually surprised at how many I do remember, but it's heavily context dependent - I find as soon as I'm not teaching a class for a year, I'll forget many of those kids' names. 

You can consider that a crap effort but I'm not sure how many people can remember 550 names, particularly when perhaps half of them change every September.

My surname has been mispronounced and misspelled throughout my life. My daughter’s given name is easily mispronounced because it has an ambiguous sounding first syllable. Even by her teacher for two years. It’s a bit of a joke in our family. 

But then we don’t have any ‘lack of inclusion’ grouse to hang our hats on.

My late Mum was a committed lifelong teacher, and she wouldn't have thought very much at all of what happened at the school the OP visited.  Imho, the best way to get behind the teaching profession possibly isn't to avoid posting things like this thread on UKClimbing...

Coincidentally, I'm listing to something on the radio about mental health problems among black women in the UK, and issues related to being from a minority. Alarmingly, people from minorities are more likely to attempt to commit suicide when they live in an area (more) lacking in ethnic diversity. Having one's name skipped over in front of teachers and parents and other pupils at an occasion at school wouldn't seem like something which is going to help in any sense. 

Being the son of a teacher, though, I can understand how easily somebody tasked with reading out the names would have so many things to do towards the end of term/the year, would find that the possibility of there being difficult names and struggling to pronounce them would be something they'd not think about. 

I think it's good the OP brought it up, because it might be different another time...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44601199

You're saying that because people can feel put out over their names being mispronounced, you can understand why a teacher would decide to avoid saying difficult names altogether? 

Yes.

 I thought this was a storm in a teacup.

But if the increasing numbers of foreign heritage pupils in our schools with names difficult to pronounce by English speakers  are going to become an issue then perhaps a climbing website is not the best place to resolve this; as I said before, I suspect the problems faced by Krikoman's daughter's school, where the foreign intake is largely Eastern European, must be magnified massively in a town where the majority of pupils are from an Asian background.

So to vilify one particular school when the whole country is going to be faced with the same problem seems a bit unfair to me; if this is a real issue  which needs addressing then the powers that be need to start issuing guidelines and in a very clear way.

Wouldn't you feel more 'othered' if your name was omitted completely, rather than mispronounced?

Isn't your attitude unaccommodating? 

First time it's been suggested that I'm "unaccommodating",

If you believe that Krikoman's daughter's school is alone in its mismanagement of the issue, then there is nothing more to say.

On the other hand, if you suspect that the "problem" is widespread, then you might agree that it is of such gravity that it needs sorting out nationally. 

Well, you are (in attitude) if you think it's better to avoid saying difficult names at all than to have a go, surely?

I'm not too sure how it could be anything else....? No offence, and all, it just seems to fit with the word. 

Fair point.

But if you had to give a very specific speech would learn that child's name in advance? 

Let's hope that Visectski doesn't win a place at Caius or Magdalenle college. Let's hope he does 

I would yeah. I don't think this was good. At our prize giving this week the head of year and deputy head did their best efforts at the West African, South East African and East European names we all stumble over. I'm sure it wasn't perfect but those kids all seem to like school and know they are valued (classic hard-charging first gen immigrants as parents so the kids all work superbly). 

My comment is more just to show the reality of how many kids we teach in non core subjects when you have loads of classes of 32 to 34 once a week.

"Unaccommodating " could also be applied to people who won't show a bit of understanding towards an institution that probably tried to avoid causing offence but in doing so did just the opposite.

Tactful letter. There is nothing more annoying to a child who receives an award when their name is spelt wrong on any certificate. Both my daughters have had this in the past and have always considered it poor and demeaning . To them it just showed the school is not really interested.

One was a DoE certificate, and one of my daughters decidedto hand it back and asked them to correct it.it caused a real fuss at the time with the school as it was not easy for them to correct and they said it could not be done. Considering the family surname is Hyde it was inexcusable.They sorted it out after a month.

100% agree with everything you say and have done.There is no excuse for a school to fail to even try and pronounce the names correctly.

Sure, but you don't actually need to remember names of people though do you? You just need to know how to pronounce words. You would think that a teacher would have a better vocabulary for names than most. 

If a child is reading aloud do you allow them to skip words because they do not know how to pronounce them?

Mightn't you feel more 'othered' if your name was omitted completely, rather than mispronounced?

I was just replying to Summo who said teachers should remember kids names but fairly for a non teacher didn't realize how many kids some of us see each week.

I agree you can at least have a crack at reading names although some Polish ones are very difficult if you haven't heard a pronounciation.

Ah, that's fair. 

I still have my 10m swimming certificate. Now I have spent much of my life correcting people who lengthen my name to Jennifer or spell it jennie - but this is the only time I have seen the spelling jenney and at the time I was furious, especially as they refused to reissue it.

My surname isn't difficult (it's in the English dictionary and a common word in everyday usage, with the same spelling and prenunciation) but I have had all kinds of spellings (even when I spell it out!) and am used to listening out for different attempts at speaking it at places like restaurants or doctors surgeries. 

It is incredibly annoying but also kind of inevitable if you have an unusual name. As a school I would expect them to make an effort to get names right (or at least close), or failing that use first names only for the whole presentation.

At least I'm lucky that once people know it my name is easier than they expect. I have a friend who has just married a Polish guy and even her mum hasn't got her toungue round how to pronounce her new surname (yet). 

Maybe not, but you can't help what you feel, and I really thought they'd created divisions, so we might not agree with on that point. The head's response to me at the time wasn't an acknowledgement of the error but an attempt to deflect their deficiencies.

Hardly vilified, and not  really the school more an individual or two within the school.

As for "the powers that be" surely it's simple good manners to pronounce someone's name correctly when you're giving them an award for, amongst other things, good effort. We can all make a difference when interacting with the people we meet, it's not very hard. IF it's part of your profession to interact with other people, I think it's rude not to know their name, or at least apologise for not being able to pronounce it.

They seemed to manage OK in her previous school, so I don't think it's school issue, rather a personnel issue. Maybe it is a school issue, and maybe by pointing it out things will change and pupils will feel more included, as their ethos professes.

I think most schools / people would, which was why it was such a surprise and a let down that this woman didn't. I think an attempt it appreciated, similar to going abroad and at least trying to communicate in their language, is almost always appreciated. (except in parts of France where it seem to get people angry - joking)

I take it you not in a minority group though either, it might just be different if you were, just another bit of shit to deal with every day, or it might not have any effect at all, so it's not hurting anything by pointing it out is it?

For what it's worth my surname is the same, it can be pronounced two ways, I care so little about it, I don't even correct people most of the time.

I remember it did bother me when I was younger.

Me pointing it out can only be beneficial for the school, it's not going to make the school any worse. So they have the option, either they make a change and they look more caring and more professional, or they ignore it and carry on as they are, no one loses out.

My Dutch nephew Jaap Nujm Nujm has recently had the same indignity.

Famed in his final year for pissing the highest up the quadrangle wall.....(earning the moniker 'Jaap's Eye Nujm Nujm)...the head teacher didn't even know that the j is silent and pronounced it nooujem nooujem

I understand your irritation, though I still think the whole issue has been overblown a bit with talk of EA 2010 and so on; and unfortunately, if this is the worst thing that happens during your child's time at that school, you will be a lucky parent.

You didn’t respond to my post where I clarified why I mentioned it.  In that post I described what I would actually do - not what was misinterpreted as my intent - and it closely matched what the OP later reported they actually did; likewise the school’s response was what I previously said I expected.

Nevertheless the school’s actions open them up to potential action under the EA2010, and it is useful to keep that in mind in face of the more abusive responses the OP received.  Certainly if I had been the headmaster during that ceremony the thought would have passed before my eyes, not “well I can’t pronounce them can you” as reported by the OP.

Perhaps I’m not very good at explaining myself but I don’t see the problem in encouraging gentle moderate action whilst also stepping back to consider the legal framework the school must operate under - seeing as basic politeness and manners weren’t enough to help some posters see why the OP had a point.

As you said earlier, "we all make mistakes.It's how we respond to them that matters".

In spite of being called "unaccommodating" I feel I have been more tolerant and understanding  of the school's mistake than most posters on here.

go Krikoman - your email response was great, your passionate response on the fly was probably a bit counter productive (imo) but loving your fire. I would agree acting head initial response not great but maybe you caught her? on the hop

I think the conclusion is you helped the school improved. Good on you

I think you are right, if we all work on our basic manners and politeness, leave the discrimination act to the lawyers we wont go too far wrong and can get on delivering in our real jobs,

I did post that I understood how easily a teacher could omit to think about whether there would be difficult to pronounce names. You've not responded to whether you think somebody might feel more 'othered' by having their names omitted completely, rather than mispronounced, I'm interesting in what you think. The only reason I thought it was an unaccommodating perspective, the one that it's fair enough to omit attempting difficult to pronounce names, is because I was trying to imagine what it might be like to be from a minority, and to go home from the occasion in the OP having perhaps been given the sense that one doesn't register as being worth people having a go at pronouncing one's name. It wasn't yourself particularly, who I was calling unaccommodating. 

Or rather, it was how it might be like for somebody with a challenging name I was trying to imagine being - how things might seem. 

You keep saying "headmaster". 1) I don't think we know the head is male and even if he is, it's 2) still rather old fashioned/gendered/private school. You don't want to be accused of sexism do you?

Have UK schools reached the point where they don't have different uniforms for the sexes? I presume kids address their teaches on first name terms, never miss, sir, Mrs etc.. 

Thought not.  

Sorry, I thought  had replied. Maybe I  deleted it .

My reply to your suggestion would have been that since I am not in a minority I would find it hard to imagine what degree of insult or discrimination I would feel at having my surname omitted. Maybe not, though.

To be honest, there were times at school when I gave a silent prayer of thanks when my surname (Valentine)was omitted from goings on . I never get any ribbing as an adult but children can be merciless and some names just ask for the piss to be taken.

"Cissy" surname, farmboy in a schoolful of townies and one of six Yorkies in among a thousand Lancs........if I had had ginger hair as well I might have started to feel a bit of "otherness"

I was saying things like “if I was the headmaster” however, so (1) does not apply.

2 - old fashioned - guilty as charged I suppose.  I haven’t been in to a school since 1997 after all. I don’t see how use of a gendered term in this context (referring hypothetically to myself) is sexist, although I do think gendered terms are generally unnecessary.  On the other hand if I ever run a school I most definitely want to be a head master not some weasel names administrative term.  I’d settle I suppose for Head Teacher, Sir to the children and Dr Wintertree to the parents.  

I'm not sure you're following me, it wasn't about my child, or indeed any child (though I admit it might be an issue for some), it was mainly about what the school was "saying" to the children, in fact to everyone.

Taken to the extreme it was similar to, "Here's Thabo Unga Bunga, from Bongo Bongo Land".

It gave the impression to other pupils, and parents, that making an effort didn't matter, which contradicted what they'd been saying not ten minutes earlier. If they wish the pupils to listen and follow their ethos, they should be the first to do so, and demonstrate it at every opportunity.

I can see anyone can make a mistake, what threw me was the acting head's response, the ideal reply would have been, "Yes, I noticed that too and we'll make sure it won't happen again". It appear to me she hadn't noticed, which is a bit more worrying than someone making a mistake.

I will probably be reading out names at our graduation, I think our University could make more effort as at the moment I get a list of names (not all graduating or all mine) and I have to practice like mad to get the names right, talking to Chinese, Nigerian and other staff to confirm them.  Extra tricky are the students who have been Gary all through only to be Xiyeau Yuanag on the day.  Chinese is easy, Nigerian sends cold shivers down my spine!

Despite this, it does not take a lot of effort to get this right and as you say is really poor that people don't make this effort.  It's a little thing that can matter a lot.

Cheers

Toby

Good luck, I'm sure any attempt will be appreciated, why not note their name phonetically on you'r list?

Gar-ee is a lot easier

Oh I do, other places I've been at would have a list of phonetically spelled names, this is just one thing they could help me with better here.

Oddly enough the only one I've cocked up was an easy one, Janus, having just sweated through some 36 letter Nigerian name I saw this and relaxed with relief and read it.  Of course it should have been Yanus and I knew immediately, he was a gent and laughed it off when I grabbed him afterwards to apologies profusely.  I thought though it was rather like climbers falling on the decent, you relax, and it's all over.

Cheers

Toby

Now the World Cup is over, maybe Clive Tyldesley and Guy Mowbray could hold some seminars for teachers on how to confidently pronounce complicated names?

Sorry I just found this

Cherry Chevapravatdumrong

and then this, please don't do this?

youtube.com/watch?v=TfEXgH-rnjs&

Made me lol