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Covid, poaching and trees

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My brother was telling me: Covid has meant hardly any deer poaching (reckons coz a higher chance of getting caught), resulted in big increase in deer numbers which have munched loads of recently planted trees. Calls for a big deer cull. Who’d have thought that Covid would have this impact. 

1
In reply to willgriggsonfire:

where?

 veteye 25 Apr 2021
In reply to willgriggsonfire:

Yes there are increasing numbers of MountJack deer in our town.

Anyway, one conclusion may be that poaching could be allowed?

2
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Not sure, think parts of England. 

Post edited at 12:06
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Article about Scottish deer (main reason for more deer is due to less demand for venison due to restaurants being shut)...

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/covid-deer-venison-climate-change-b1785514.html%3famp

 Ciro 25 Apr 2021
In reply to veteye:

> Yes there are increasing numbers of MountJack deer in our town.

> Anyway, one conclusion may be that poaching could be allowed?

Speaking as someone who did a fair bit of poaching as a kid, whilst I think it's great to be able to feed yourself and your family, and possibly get a bit of pocket money by selling some to the local pub, if you just allow people to take as much as they want they'll end up taking too much as they'll try to commercialise their efforts.

Our local burn had been a source of sea trout for the village for generations, and people knew to check the gender and put the females back (they don't taste great once they're ready for spawning, so leaving them ensures the males that do get past the poachers will be able to mate), and there were healthy stocks every year.

Then one year nothing came up - by that point I had given up poaching but used to wander down with a torch of an evening and have a look. The other burns in the area were OK, so I can only assume someone netted the shit out of that one burn down near the mouth that year, and took everything that came up. As the fish come back to the stream they were born in, that completely killed the burn and for years you were lucky to see a couple of trout in an evening, when before you could go down for an hour and spot dozens.

People are greedy ☹️

1
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Article that includes England...none mention poaching but he does know his stuff (he manages a section of woodland in N Wales - so it could be there where poaching is an issue?)  

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/10/wild-deer-set-to-wreak-havoc-in-uk-woodlands-as-venison-demand-plunges

In reply to willgriggsonfire:

Surely, another factor is that many of the big estates that run shooting operations had to curtail their activities because of covid. 

In reply to veteye:

My brother also told me that in one county in England, Muntjack kill an average of 12 domestic dogs a year - attack their bellies with those tusks. 

8
 timjones 25 Apr 2021
In reply to willgriggsonfire:

> My brother also told me that in one county in England, Muntjack kill an average of 12 domestic dogs a year - attack their bellies with those tusks. 

Muntjac are very timid, how can under control dog get close enough to provoke an attack?

1
 mondite 25 Apr 2021
In reply to timjones:

> Muntjac are very timid, how can under control dog get close enough to provoke an attack?


Its just being friendly.

 Ciro 25 Apr 2021
In reply to timjones:

> Muntjac are very timid, how can under control dog get close enough to provoke an attack?

I imagine by lobbying its' MP and making up shite on behalf of its well heeled, tweed wearing owner.

1
 Bob Kemp 25 Apr 2021
In reply to willgriggsonfire:

Muntjacs killing dogs would surprise me - it’s usually the other way round as far as I can tell 

2
 Timmd 25 Apr 2021
In reply to veteye:

Which neck of the woods is that in (don't say your town if you'd rather not)? I'm on the look out for some wild Muntjac deer meat, and finding a supplier seems to be a challenge.

Post edited at 14:19
In reply to willgriggsonfire:

I’d be very surprised - and it would be pretty hard to gather this data!

In reply to willgriggsonfire:

I wasn't aware that Muntjac were cold blooded killers, so I consulted the Daily Mail... and apparently these things are immigrants from Asia and they are over here taking the food that should be eaten by our native deer. Now they are lawless dog killers too. This is the kind of thing foreigners bring. Absolutely sickening. Why do ordinary people stand for this?

 timjones 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> I imagine by lobbying its' MP and making up shite on behalf of its well heeled, tweed wearing owner.

I can't imagine a Muntjac allowing an MP to get close enough to tell it what to do

In reply to Bob Kemp:

Yes, dogs do kill muntjack but also the other way round. A roe deer had a go at my dog last year, on a path that we go on every day. Clearly had a young one nearby. Quite a sight - the deer ran at my dog with its nose to the ground and rammed by dogs underbelly. All happened a few feet away. 

 veteye 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Stamford

I'm bringing a new cook book out in Autumn, "The game of catching and cooking Muntjac and Red Kite, 129 recipes to feast on"

:-}

(RK's will be declared vermin soon, an import from Wales).

2
 Timmd 25 Apr 2021
In reply to veteye:

Ha, I'm guessing it's their habit of lurking in woodland undergrowth which makes Muntjac less available than other wild deer, making them more hassle to hunt. IIRC, them tending to do this can make them more unhelpful than other deer for woodland biodiversity, but I don't know how well grounded that is in science, or if how people feel about them has something to do with the perception. 

I like the green and humane credentials of wild deer, and Muntjac especially if the above theory is correct. A vegan online was talking about some kind of biological contraception being preferable to deer being hunted, but unless that happens, or a predator species is introduced (possibly more traumatic than being shot) I guess deer numbers will need managing.

Post edited at 17:45
 veteye 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Timmd:

We have one with it's young in the back of the garden at times at work. It is not bothered by us going out to our cars and the like.

In reply to veteye:

> Stamford

> I'm bringing a new cook book out in Autumn, "The game of catching and cooking Muntjac and Red Kite, 129 recipes to feast on"

> :-}

You can add Willow Warblers to the list - millions of them round here  

In reply to Timmd:

Interesting ethical question - stress of being captured/shot to have a contraceptive implant vs just being shot dead.

 Timmd 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Interesting ethical question - stress of being captured/shot to have a contraceptive implant vs just being shot dead.

On a tangent, some short intense pain following drawn out lower level pain (according to something in New Scientist) makes the memory of the pain as a whole more agreeably remembered, or less disagreeably remembered.

I reckon the being tranquilised might be easily moved on from, if deer tend to live in the moment. If one can forget about something, or an animal can, what it's like to go through possibly becomes less import, so long as the stress doesn't kill it etc. Suffering is still be avoided, though.

Post edited at 18:43
 veteye 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Typical vet, getting the ethical angle in.

Maybe the ethical bit is that Timmd could not eat the meat if it had been shot/jagged w contraceptive, and then later killed?

 Fozzy 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> Which neck of the woods is that in (don't say your town if you'd rather not)? I'm on the look out for some wild Muntjac deer meat, and finding a supplier seems to be a challenge.

If you’re on FB, check out ‘Giving up the Game’. Sourcing a munty on there won’t be a challenge.

They really are superb eating; I shoot anywhere between 30-50 of them a year as they are so prolific around here.
With regards to stress from being shot, I’ve never had a deer run further than 20yds after the shot before falling stone dead, and that’s only in fallow due to adrenaline when the whole herd is somehow aware I’m there (I use a .308, which knocks everything over without fuss). A properly shot deer doesn’t even hear the bang.  

 Fozzy 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Muntjacs killing dogs would surprise me - it’s usually the other way round as far as I can tell 

I’ve seen a springer spaniel fatally injured by a muntjac buck on a shoot day, where the (usually impeccably behaved) spaniel cornered it against a fence & ignored the owner completely whilst the munty fought back. Muntjac tusks are like razors, and they aren’t afraid to use them. 

In reply to veteye:

> Typical vet, getting the ethical angle in.

> Maybe the ethical bit is that Timmd could not eat the meat if it had been shot/jagged w contraceptive, and then later killed?

It’s all a plot by them Vegans I tell thee!
 

I imagine the MRL would be quite fun to calculate

In reply to Timmd:

> ... ... ... or a predator species is introduced 

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/second-bid-reintroduce-lynx-kielder-19690477

2nd attempt to re-introduce Lynx to Keilder, maybe this time they'll be approved

Post edited at 20:23
In reply to veteye:

IIRC your local RK's ancestry will be Spanish rather than Welsh.

How many generations does it need in your neck of the woods to be accepted as local 😁

 wbo2 26 Apr 2021
In reply to willgriggsonfire:  I am dubious your brother is a reliable source of statistical data   I am guessing the mystery county would be Norfolk or Suffolk?

 veteye 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> IIRC your local RK's ancestry will be Spanish rather than Welsh.

Is there a different flavour then?

> How many generations does it need in your neck of the woods to be accepted as local 😁

n to the power infinity years.

In reply to veteye:

> Is there a different flavour then?

Not sure, more spicy maybe, tomato flavour?

The RK re-introductions were with Spanish youngsters, stolen from their homes and transported to a foreign land, told they were free but any links to their own background totally severed and just left to struggle in a strange cold land. Doesn't sound so good when it's phrased like that - beautiful to watch though.

In reply to wbo2:

I think it is Norfolk (where his in-laws live).

In reply to Fozzy:

I think when any animal thinks it’s young are threatened they would do just about anything to protect them. I’ve been attacked by an oystercatcher which is minuscule compared to a muntjack.

Edit: hope your back injury is OK  

Post edited at 09:19
 Cobra_Head 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> where?


On the deer!

 Cobra_Head 26 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

> Surely, another factor is that many of the big estates that run shooting operations had to curtail their activities because of covid. 


They didn't though did they? They were allowed to carry on, there was very little restriction on the numbers that could attend a hunting party. There was a big furore about it.

 Cobra_Head 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> IIRC your local RK's ancestry will be Spanish rather than Welsh.

We got Spanish, the jocks got kites from Sweden and Germany

In reply to veteye:

> Anyway, one conclusion may be that poaching could be allowed?

 Sorry but aloud  poaching would just  not be  poaching 

In reply to Name Changed 34:

> > 

>  Sorry but aloud  poaching would just  not be  poaching 

I've said it at normal decibels and shouted the word poaching, and it still sounds like the word poaching...

In reply to willgriggsonfire:

Yeah ok  but no matter how you say or shout poaching needs to remain 

ill Eagle 

 timjones 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> They didn't though did they? They were allowed to carry on, there was very little restriction on the numbers that could attend a hunting party. There was a big furore about it.

DId anyone ever produce any evidence that hunting and shooting were treated differently to other sports?


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