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COVID sashimi

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 Dave Garnett 20 Oct 2021


So, being double vaccinated and having managed to dodge it for eighteen months, I was starting to think we were going to somehow evade C-19.  But, either through my going to a family funeral (where I was one of only two people of 150 in the crematorium wearing a mask, and there was a wake afterwards which I fled as soon as I decently could), or Jane going to the local film club in Leek, we are PCR positive and somewhat poorly.

To be clear, on one level, I’ve found it (so far) no worse than a touch of flu.  A runny nose, a bit of a cough (but then I cough anyway) and feeling generally shit for 24 hours.  I’ve had considerably worse after flying to San Diego and spending an entire weekend in bed too ill even to eat ice cream!

However, I think I detect hints of the power and potential from which vaccination is protecting me.  There‘s an odd ringing in my ears, and a brain fog that stopped me in my tracks in the middle of the working day.  I feel like I’m being crushed by huge fist, but wearing body armour that is resisting the pressure.  The speed and irresistible force with which it knocked me down was almost physical.

But how much of this thrill of mortal danger being literally close enough to taste is the nocebo effect of that curt NHS text?  It feels a bit like the frisson of numbness that allegedly comes from a perfectly prepared fugu sashimi, a thrilling glimpse of what it would be like to be beyond help.  Shibireru, it‘s called.  But here’s the thing - there‘s no evidence that this sought-after thrill really happens, at least to anyone who survives.  It‘s probably suggestion.

Probably.

Anyway, if anyone reading this is still hesitant about getting vaccinated, you may still have time.  But the way things are going, I really wouldn‘t hang about much longer.

And that funeral?  My cousin‘s husband.  The nicest guy in the world apparently, the massive crowd listening outside certainly thought so.  Only one chink in his armour, he wasn’t very convinced vaccination was a sensible thing to do and he wasn’t the only one present of that mind.

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In reply to Dave Garnett:

I was considering going to a housewarming this weekend, but the prospect of spending eight hours on a train packed with people taking no precautions, and the rising covid incidence is putting me off the thought...

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 wintertree 20 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Hopefully it all passes with no more drama than described, and you can get some interesting science out of your blood afterwards - do you have any from before to compare it with?  It occurred to me recently that we should all be banking some healthy blood to allow a before/after screen in case of dysregulation induced autoimmunity.

Any relief from no longer mulling over the "what ifs" in the idle moments?

> And that funeral? [...] Only one chink in his armour, he wasn’t very convinced vaccination was a sensible thing to do and he wasn’t the only one present of that mind.

If you caught at the funeral, Kuru comes to mind.

> Anyway, if anyone reading this is still hesitant about getting vaccinated, you may still have time.  But the way things are going, I really wouldn‘t hang about much longer.

Anecdotally, suddenly everyone around me seems to be catching Covid.  I don't appear to be, and one the one hand I think I'm better of catching it sooner than later (being ineligible for a booster), but on the other hand I quite like not having Covid.  Devil and the deep blue sea.

I've put a plot in below I did of the case fatality rate within England over the last year, separated by age.  Looks like the vaccine makes you ten years younger in terms of risk.  People would pay good money to be ten years younger, and people can get this for free.  Seems like a good deal to me.


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OP Dave Garnett 20 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Hopefully it all passes with no more drama than described, and you can get some interesting science out of your blood afterwards - do you have any from before to compare it with? 

 

UK Biobank has a reference sample from about 20 years ago, and a few more more recently.  I did an antibody test the day of my first vaccination and some more tests are on their way.

> If you caught at the funeral, Kuru comes to mind.

I didn’t touch the buffet.

> Anecdotally, suddenly everyone around me seems to be catching Covid.  I don't appear to be, and one the one hand I think I'm better of catching it sooner than later

One big plus is that, lacking the option of Valneva for my booster, this is definitely the best booster available, assuming no long-term damage.  I should be immortal when I fly to San Diego next month.

Against COVID, that is.  There’s a substantial risk of picking up something else f*cking horrible. Again.

 Welsh Kate 20 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

"Anecdotally, suddenly everyone around me seems to be catching Covid.  I don't appear to be, and one the one hand I think I'm better of catching it sooner than later (being ineligible for a booster), but on the other hand I quite like not having Covid.  Devil and the deep blue sea."

Yeah, same here. Working in HE, I was fully expecting to get it within the first three weeks of term, but we're halfway through week three and the negative test results keep coming back. Booster due mid December.

 Duncan Bourne 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Hope you feel better soon Dave. You now rank as the 8th person I know personally who has has had COVID. Only two of whom died.

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 dread-i 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Thanks for posting. Its a good reminder that though many of us are double vaxed, were not immortal. It reduces the likelihood of bad things happening, and reduces the severity, but its not a cure.

 oureed 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

>  You now rank as the 8th person I know personally who has had COVID. Only two of whom died.

You have been incredibly unfortunate in your experience with Covid. I know over 40 people who have contracted the disease but only two required hospital care, with one of those in intensive (now fully recovered). I may have been lucky but, looking at the statistics, I think my experience is closer to the overall reality of the situation than yours.

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 TobyA 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Get well soon Dave, and to Jane to. 

> Against COVID, that is.  There’s a substantial risk of picking up something else f*cking horrible. Again.

This seems to be the experience of being in a UK secondary school currently too. I'm 3.5 weeks into feeling not right. The first weekend (straight after I had had my flu jab - correlation, not causation hopefully!) I felt awful, Monday and Tuesday I limped through work, but stayed home Wednesday as I was feeling more awful. Back to work Thursday, but still coughing and sneezing and so on. The next week it was just like a nasty cold, and the week after that (last week) I even felt better enough to cycle in twice (I normally ride in 3x a week, but hadn't since I started feeling ill). Last weekend was OK besides the cold symptoms but this week I've just been feeling lousy the whole time. We've been given boxes and boxes of lateral flow tests, and do them twice a week - but I've been doing more recently as I'm feeling sick and there are loads of covid cases in school, but all coming back negative. The LFTs are definitely catching lots of asymptomatic (or symptoms that seem just like a cold) among kids though. But loads and loads of kids and staff are off sick with other bugs and flu and colds etc. on top of the covid. It's a right mess, but virtually no kids are wearing masks, not that many of us staff, and it's getting cooler so when you leave doors open for ventilation the students complain (perhaps not unfairly) that it is cold. 

I'm writing this now because I have unforeseen free period because all of my admittedly quite small Y13 class I should be teaching are off sick!

Post edited at 09:39
 wintertree 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> You have been incredibly unfortunate in your experience with Covid

Getting older is not "unlucky", it is what happens to all of us, and is I think a key aspect of what may separate your n=1 experience from Duncan's n=1 experience.  

Not misfortune.  

The fatality rate of Covid increases about exponentially with age, going up by a factor of ten or so for every decade of adult life.

The situations has always been, and remains, that the majority of people are spreading the virus to little ill effect on themselves, and that a minority of people are suffering in sufficiently large numbers to represent an existential threat to healthcare.  One way to look at the vaccine roll out is that it's moved the dividing line between those two groups up ten years in age, but there's still a lot of people on the other side of the dividing line.  Of course it's not really a binary dividing line, with there being all sorts of different criteria for health damage applying across the ages.

>  I think my experience is closer to the overall reality of the situation than yours.

I don't think so.  I think they are each representative of the demographics you interact with, and each reflect different and limited parts of the "overall reality".

The "overall reality" that is that this virus presents a clear and present danger to universal healthcare directly affecting many times more people than the virus itself.

Seems to me that you and your previous two or three banned incarnations remain very keen to present a false reality that denies both the very real direct risks associated with increasing age and that denies the very real risks to others of overloading healthcare.

It must be a day ending in 'y'.

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 wintertree 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I hope you find out some interesting things from your bloods.  

>  I should be immortal when I fly to San Diego next month.  Against COVID, that is.  There’s a substantial risk of picking up something else f*cking horrible. Again.

I haven't flown in almost a decade now.  The last flights I did really f***ed me up.   I used to smear a bit of vaseline around the inside of my nose to stop it drying out and become receptive to every disease going but flying back after a lot of time in hot, dry, thin air always laden with the smoke from distant forest fires really didn't help.  There has to be a market for a small, powered face mask that HEPA filters and hydrates air for airline passengers.

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 oureed 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Seems to me that you [...] remain very keen to present a false reality 

You seem to be suggesting that a 4:1 case fatality rate reflects overall reality better than a 20:1 hospitalisation rate or a 40:1 intensive care rate.

As for the age cohort, I'm barely younger than Duncan and my friends and work colleagues are generally around my age. The people I know who have caught Covid include many of these and also both my parents-in-law (my father-in-law is 85 and very obese). 

Please don't feel obliged to contest everything I say about Covid. It's not a healthy attitude, you know.

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 wintertree 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> You seem to be suggesting that a 4:1 case fatality rate reflects overall reality better than a 20:1 hospitalisation rate or a 40:1 intensive care rate.

That is not what I said.  What I said is above and is written in plain language.

You seem to be deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

> As for the age cohort, I'm barely younger than Duncan and my friends and work colleagues are generally around my age. The people I know who have caught Covid include many of these and also both my parents-in-law (my father-in-law is 85 and very obese). 

Given the clear evidence over CFRs pre- and post- vaccination I think then it is more the case that you are unusually lucky - or more specifically that your contacts are lucky.

> Please don't feel obliged to contest everything I say about Covid.

I simply disagree.  I think - as I clearly stated - that the overall reality is one of risk increasing exponentially with age and a clear and present danger to healthcare.

Neither your n=1 nor Duncan's n=1 anecdotes convey that.  

Duncan gave a clearly personal anecdote

You went on to make a claim linking your anecdote to the "overall reality" whilst denying many critical aspects of the overall reality.

I don't challenge anything you say any less than I challenge it from others. Giving a counter-perspective to your specific posts is not a special priority for me.  

>  It's not a healthy attitude, you know.

I would say that about jumping on every opportunity presented to you to under-represent the real risks of this pandemic.

Responding to people bringing a counter-view to you by deliberately escalating your conduct to the point of multiple bans and then coming back to claim Orwellian prosecution is pretty unhealthy IMO.

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 blackcat 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

A couple of weeks ago i added to a thread on the subject of having had covid,which a vulnrable family member had and was taken to hospital,treated and home a week later to finish isolating for ten days, double jabbed but underlying health problems,well the said family member is now back in hospital with covid reinfection.All i can think is her being vulnrable  and the vaccines slacking off has caught her out again,shame she hasnt had the booster yet.

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 oureed 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Duncan gave a clearly personal anecdote

Which, despite being a very poor representation of the current situation, you chose not to respond to. Instead you contested the legitimacy of my personal anecdote which better reflects overall reality!

Be careful that your obsession with Covid does not negatively impact the mental health of others. You have recently said you will not be entering a lecture theatre or bus for a long time and some of your followers have made similar comments about socialising in small groups, despite being young and double-vaxxed. 

Preaching caution is one thing, but paranoia should not be encouraged.

Post edited at 12:52
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 wintertree 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> Which, despite being a very poor representation of the current situation, you chose not to respond to!

Because, and I thought I made this very clear, Duncan gave an n=1 personal anecdote, where as you claimed your n=1 anecdote represented the "overall reality"

Neither your anecdote nor Duncan's were "wrong" and nor could anyone reasonably challenge them - indeed I'd object someone they did.

You went beyond that, making a claim about "overall realty" whilst denying (by omission) many critical factors of the overall reality in favour of your one-sided rosy view.  This is not anecdotal, it's open to factual challenge.  That is what I felt invited response.  

> You have recently said you will not be entering a lecture theatre

Again with the misrepresentations oureed?  It truly is a day ending in 'y'.  Let me paste the text you are misrepresenting

Pre-Covid I'd get 3-4 respiratory nasties a year, with the winter season one getting worse each year.  No idea how often I got any particular one, but if Covid ends up much like those it's a steer for what to expect.  I'm not going back in to a crowded lecture theatre again...

Here, I make it clear that in my role teaching I used to get clobbered by respiratory illnesses before Covid, and that I don't want to do that any longer.  I don't want to work in an environment that makes me so ill I'm coughing until the point I put my back out and can't get out of bed for a day. This is an experience not uncommon to those who work in HE where cohorts are large and mixed from all over the place.  Covid is almost incidental in what I say here.

You seem confused about what I actually said.  What I said wasn't about Covid, and it's not about my mental health, it's about my physical health.  I did talk about Covid and where it might end up, but it's also clear that Covid is not the reason I have no interest in going back in to a lecture theatre again.

>  some of your followers have made similar comments about socialising in small groups, despite being young and double-vaxxed. 

I don't have "followers" on here.  Really, I don't.  I've disagreed multiple times with almost everyone I've discussed with; if we all had the same view on everything there would be no point in talking, would there?

I think that managing my exposure to high viral load situations is a wise choice for my physical health, as the data suggests that with my (not that young) age and double vaccinated status, I have a 0.2% chance of dying from Covid which is a stand-out high risk for myself. I can reasonably extrapolate that I have a much higher chance of taking a serious health clobbering from Covid.  I don't want that.  Managing viral load is a key step to taking control over my physical health it seems.

Managing my risk by avoiding high viral load situations is not a "mental health" issue, it's physical health.  

Seems to me particularly unpleasant to try and dismiss the views of others who take an objective, evidence based view of protecting their physical health as a sign they're suffering mental health difficulties. 

> Preaching caution is one thing, but paranoia should not be encouraged.

Well, you seem to be in a very small minority in thinking that my views are "paranoid".  The actual responses I have received on here and via PM suggest to me that trying to find and communicate a somewhat balanced view of often confusing statistics helps anchor people against the damaging mental health effects of all the Big Scary Numbers and sometimes incoherent media reporting.  I gave one of your former accounts a detailed, cited, blow-by-blow account of something like 20 times I was talking through why I felt the situation or the data was not as bad as other posters on here, media commentators and the usual voices were claiming.  You, obviously, ignored this.  I spend some effort even now arguing against people doing a "the sky is falling" routine over Big Scary Numbers to make the case I think it is less bad than that.  I don't like to see the data or the situation being egregiously misrepresented in either direction.  You, obviously, ignore this.

The only thing I think people should be paranoid of are the people who pop up under new account after new account deliberately dissociating themselves from their former views, because it seems to me this facilitates their "slippery weasel" posing style where they always argue to lowball the risks, changing their message as the situation changes in a way they can't be held to.

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 Neil Williams 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> >  You now rank as the 8th person I know personally who has had COVID. Only two of whom died.

> You have been incredibly unfortunate in your experience with Covid. I know over 40 people who have contracted the disease but only two required hospital care, with one of those in intensive (now fully recovered). I may have been lucky but, looking at the statistics, I think my experience is closer to the overall reality of the situation than yours.

I suspect there's a good chance that may be age related.

 Neil Williams 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> I haven't flown in almost a decade now.  The last flights I did really f***ed me up.   I used to smear a bit of vaseline around the inside of my nose to stop it drying out and become receptive to every disease going but flying back after a lot of time in hot, dry, thin air always laden with the smoke from distant forest fires really didn't help.  There has to be a market for a small, powered face mask that HEPA filters and hydrates air for airline passengers.

Give a Boeing 787 a go - the composite* airframe allows it to run both higher pressurisation and moisture, and it makes a huge difference to how much like death I feel after a long haul flight.  Truly game-changing stuff.  Lovely big windows, too, it's a bit like being on a flying train.

Add an FFP2 mask for your filtering, I guess.

* "Plastic plane" sounds a bit cheap but it basically is, well, carbon fibre and resin

Post edited at 14:28
OP Dave Garnett 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Hope you feel better soon Dave. You now rank as the 8th person I know personally who has has had COVID. Only two of whom died.

Thanks!  Good to know I have a 75% chance.

 oureed 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Well, you seem to be in a very small minority

Beware the heady thrill of validation via UKC Covid threads. They are but a microcosm of UKC, which is in turn a microcosm of British society and the rest of the world.

You have found on here a very niche market that appreciates your views. Make the most of it; elsewhere they would be given short shrift.

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 midgen 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

I'm not sure you quite understand the words you're using there.

 wintertree 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

I was claiming that you seem to be in a very small minority when it comes to interpreting my views on Covid as "paranoid".  

It turns out that your views on my attitude to risk were critically misinformed in terms of both what I actually said and the actual, evidenced risk to myself.

SO, clearly, you're not going to address any of those points.

There are plenty of posters on here making a case things are far worse in various areas than I think, and some times I have expressed why I think they are over-egging the situation.  That seems to sail you by.  Repeatedly.  Hardly suggests paranoia to me.

So, with that out of the way, my comments on the new and increasingly surreal direction you're taking this conversation in...

> Beware the heady thrill of validation via UKC Covid threads.

I don't need these threads to feel validation in my life, and nor do they instils a sense of validation in me.  

> They are but a microcosm of UKC, which is in turn a microcosm of British society and the rest of the world.

Yes, you see, I understand that.  Because I am not a monumental fool. Shocking, I know.  

> You have found on here a very niche market that appreciates your views.

It's not a "market", this is not transactional.  It's an "audience" and at times a high quality informal collaboration.

> Make the most of it

What do you expect me to do with it?  

> elsewhere they would be given short shrift.

Yes, I have spoken with people in offline life who have significant problems when faced with actual, evidence based thinking that attempts to find the truth of a mater in so far as is reasonably possible. 

I tend to find that if I stick to my point and bring logical, evidenced rebuttals to theirs that they end up resorting to insults like "We'd all be speaking German by now if you'd been around in the war" or "blah blah leftie liberal marxist academics".  Actual spittle came out in one case, it wasn't a pleasant sight.

Others may not be surprised to find that I don't have problems sharing my views in the flesh as much as on here.  It's often an education.

I have absolutely no problem with people holding different ideas or world views to me.  No skin off my nose, it's a very diverse world indeed beyond little corner of it.  My problems starts and ends with people consistently misusing or misrepresenting data and statistics to warp them in to misinformed support for their different but otherwise valid world view.  Something you and your former accounts have done endlessly over the last year.

Short shrift is no skin of my noise.  I'd rather have my principles and hold myself to them than change my view like the wind to suit the views of whoever I happen to be talking with. 

Edit: Earlier you said

> Instead you contested the legitimacy of my personal anecdote which better reflects overall reality!

You have changed direction on every reply, but have you yet realised I did not challenge the legitimacy of your personal anecdote (hell, I'll endorse it for what we both agree it is - a personal anecdote of equal worth to that of the other poster), I did challenge your claim that it better represents the overall reality.  I suggested both valid anecdotes represent parts of the reality, and that the overall picture includes far more than what you both mentioned.  It was not your experience I challenged, but the way you (and not the other poster) sought to generalise it in a way I believe was not justified.

Post edited at 17:12
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 Duncan Bourne 21 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

 >I may have been lucky but, looking at the statistics, I think my experience is closer to the overall reality of the situation than yours.<

Thank you. Your sympathy has been noted

 didntcomelast 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

In the course of my deliveries around the tyne valley area I noticed a sharp untick in Covid households about 6 weeks ago, these have now tailed off to the extent that I only get 1 or 2 in a delivery round of 20 houses.

Almost all of the households state the infection has come from school with the majority having either primary aged or early secondary school kids.  

Surprisingly again almost all of the adults have been double jabbed and had symptoms ranging from a +ve PCR test to something akin to flu. None of the people I’ve spoken to have required medical attention.  

Whilst I know none of what I’ve written has any scientific or medical basis, it’s real world observation over a relatively large area. I have to say though, there’s almost no mask wearing even when I deliver to Covid +ve households. They don’t even get the hint when I’m masked on arrival.  

 Offwidth 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

Aghhh why do you still reply?? Do you wrestle eels as well for a hobby? You're trusted by the majority here, with an over representative level of professionals, including a big majority of those working in medicine and scientific academia.... and who wants to represent the population zeitgeist when we live in a country that voted for brexit and Boris?

I clearly need to think of some opaque nits to pick so you can argue with me instead.... at least that way we all get to witness interesting new graphical techniques.

In reply to Dave Garnett

Lynn and I wish you both well. As a more positive spin we know hundreds of people who've had covid and no one who has died from it... watch out for long covid though that's running at a few per percent in our circle.

Post edited at 19:10
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OP Dave Garnett 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply to Dave Garnett

> Lynn and I wish you both well. As a more positive spin we know hundreds of people who've had covid and no one who has died from it... watch out for long covid though that's running at a few per percent in our circle.

Thanks very much to you and everyone else who has wished us well, both on here and by email.  It’s appreciated- you’re a decent lot despite the occasional spats.  It’s definitely made me reconsider a few things.  Today has been logistically very complicated- I’ll tell you all about over a beer one day soon I hope.

 Duncan Bourne 21 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Both had underlying conditions so I have no doubt you'll be fine. See down at the wall when you are better

 bruxist 21 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree and everyone else:

> Anecdotally, suddenly everyone around me seems to be catching Covid.  I don't appear to be, and one the one hand I think I'm better of catching it sooner than later (being ineligible for a booster), but on the other hand I quite like not having Covid.

I'm currently assembling a list of local walk-ins that'll administer boosters to my colleagues this weekend. They're all frontline healthcare who were initially jabbed as JCVI Group 2, but who have now apparently been forgotten. Talking to the vaxx staff at the walk-ins, they tell me they're regularly giving boosters to NHS staff whose trusts still haven't offered them a booster. This stage of the vaccination programme seems to be a total shambles to me; however, that does mean lots of walk-ins desperate to offer boosters regardless of eligilbility, so long as you're 6 months post-second dose.

 fred99 22 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> Beware the heady thrill of validation via UKC Covid threads. They are but a microcosm of UKC, which is in turn a microcosm of British society and the rest of the world.

> You have found on here a very niche market that appreciates your views. Make the most of it; elsewhere they would be given short shrift.

I don't think wintertree wastes his time speaking to the morons in this world.

 Offwidth 22 Oct 2021
In reply to bruxist:

Don't forget anyone who doesn't get called up is somehow not generating the correct output from (the increasing glitchy sounding) outsourced national booking system. I've heard rumours of a few regional teams desperate to run their own lists for staff but told they are not allowed to.

 Offwidth 22 Oct 2021
In reply to fred99:

People do change their minds sometimes: it isn't common or easy though.

I'm not asking wintertree to stop replying to most posters, nor to stop posting about common mistakes and misconceptions, nor especially about insidious misrepresentations, I just don't think any direct reply to oureed helps.

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 oureed 22 Oct 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> I just don't think any direct reply to oureed helps.

I agree. Wintertree's replies to my posts are invariably repetitive, predictable and frankly tedious. I'm not sure where he finds the motivation.

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 wintertree 22 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> I agree. Wintertree's replies to my posts are invariably repetitive, predictable and frankly tedious. I'm not sure where he finds the motivation.

Because you invariably either misunderstand or misrepresent pretty much every single thing I say, every single time.   Then you manage to misunderstand or misrepresent every single explanation I give of where you have got the wrong end of the stick.  You've managed that on almost every point I raised on this thread.  (For example I did not "contest[...] the legitimacy of [your] personal anecdote" on this thread).

You manage to misunderstand or misrepresent pretty much every single statistic you see on Covid.   When I walk you through a detailed, clear example of how you misunderstood or misrepresented something, you either ignore it and move on to a bizarre new direction or claim it's tedious or over-detailed.

>  I'm not sure where he finds the motivation.

I don't like it when I see someone consistently misunderstanding or misrepresenting pretty much everything always in one direction.  I fully support the idea of adults being able to make their own decisions over this situation as much as possible, but it's critical that they have accurate information when doing so.

I especially don't like it when I see someone abusing multiple accounts to detach themselves from past comments so they can hide away from past comments as the situation changes.

I stick with it because I extend you the curtesy of believing that you are a genuine poster if almost entirely incapable of reading what others say instead of what you think in their posts, and with a poor ability to understand statistics filtered through a coloured pre-conception that's well of to one side of consensus.  All this despite the large number of shared hallmarks between you and clear trolls.

Edit: I really shouldn't have hijacked the OP's thread.  If they want to report this post and ask for it and all of the other related posts to be deleted, please go for it.  Dave, I hope neither of you are too rotten and aren't going stir crazy under the confinement!

Post edited at 15:12
 Offwidth 22 Oct 2021
In reply to the thread

Lo !  .... wintertree is repetitive and predictable .. good!! That's exactly what a decent scientist defending established scientific positions should be. I'm glad if anyone with dishonest motives finds that tedious.

 Wainers44 22 Oct 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply to the thread

> Lo !  .... wintertree is repetitive and predictable .. good!! That's exactly what a decent scientist defending established scientific positions should be. I'm glad if anyone with dishonest motives finds that tedious.

Totally agree. The bloke is as dull as dishwater.  Little imagination,  doesn't twist stuff to suit his biased and dangerous (and paid for?) world view. He's like a stick record....fact...fact....fact.

Dullard.

 oureed 22 Oct 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply to the thread

> Lo !  .... wintertree is repetitive and predictable .. good!! That's exactly what a decent scientist defending established scientific positions should be. 

Thing is he's not even defending scientific positions in most of his replies to me, just banging on about misrepresentation (when he means disagreement) and previous identities (which he usually gets wrong).

Note: If you don't want posters to have previous identities, don't call for them to be banned for expressing views contrary to your own. My original UKC identity - quite some time back - was my first name followed by my surname!

Go back and read my initial reply to Duncan's post and ask yourself who is misrepresenting whom, and if Wintertree's obsessive responses are really warranted.

Post edited at 15:42
9
 wintertree 22 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> just banging on about misrepresentation (when he means disagreement)

No, I usually mean misrepresentation.  

For example over my lecture theatre comments (misunderstanding/misrepresentation - they weren't even about Covid...) or contesting the legitimacy of your personal anecdote (misunderstanding/misrepresentation - I pointed out where both anecdotes fall short of representing the overall reality, both being small and un challenged parts of that reality)

> Note: If you don't want posters to have previous identities, don't call for them to be banned for expressing views contrary to your own.

Wrong:I have never called for you to be banned for expressing views contrary to my own.
Wrong: I have never called for anyone to be banned for expressing views contrary to my own.
Wrong: I have never called for anyone to be banned.

I very rarely report posts unless I consider their content outright dangerous or highly tasteless, and then I limit myself to outlining issues with the posts.  I have no power to have my issues acted on, and of the few times I've reported a post, even fewer have been acted on.

You seem a bit conflicted here.  You do so whine about me asking for you to be banned, yet I don't ask for this.  Instead I almost always engage the points I see the I have trouble with, not report them, with you having ample opportunity to respond.  Then you complain about me posting.  You seem to enjoy complaining frankly.  Would you rather I started asking for you to be banned the next time you start presenting a fatality rate 100x too low instead of trying to show you there error of your ways?  Or would you rather I respond?  Or would you rather be left to peddle misunderstood or misrepresented data without challenge?

So, it seems that here you are once again misunderstanding or misrepresenting me by claiming I call for you to be banned.

> and previous identities (which he usually gets wrong).

Easy to be smug about that when refusing to divulge any of them, ey?  

That various posters (not just myself by a long shot) mistake you for some of the unpleasant characters who skulk around here under ever changing identities says more about you than me I think.

Post edited at 15:54
 oureed 22 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> So, it seems that here you are once again misunderstanding or misrepresenting me by claiming I call for you to be banned.

FFS, I was conversing with Offwidth, not you! Now where's that facepalm meme you keep in reserve for Tom?!

12
 wintertree 22 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> FFS, I was conversing with Offwidth, not you! Now where's that facepalm meme you keep in reserve for Tom?!

  1. You were telling lies about me (claiming I've been asking for you to be banned because I disagree with you).  I'm gong to point that out. 
  2. You've never had a problem replying to posts from me when I was not conversing with you, have you?  I could go and produce a list of dozens of such instances, but I dare say you'd either ignore it and take the conversation in a bizarre direction, or misunderstand/misrepresent me.  A bit like when I've produced a list of over a dozen examples of me making the case our situation is not as bas as others think, something totally at odds with the various things you've had to say about my take on Covid.  You ignored that list as well.  I'm sitting a pattern here for how you handle facts that don't sit well with your world view.

I am getting a strong vibe for double standards here from you.  Given your penchant for Orwell references, is it perhaps the case that you believe some posters are more equal than others?

 jon 22 Oct 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Dave this is H. Sorry to hear you're both ill. That seems amazing to me that you've both got it, being fully vaccinated and not both at the funeral? Just out of interest, when you were found positive, did they tell you if you have the new Delta variant that has apparently appeared in the UK? 

Hope you both get well soon. 

 bruxist 22 Oct 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> I've heard rumours of a few regional teams desperate to run their own lists for staff but told they are not allowed to.

You can add a +1 to that rumour.

 Andy Hardy 22 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> Thing is he's not even defending scientific positions in most of his replies to me, just banging on about misrepresentation (when he means disagreement) and previous identities (which he usually gets wrong).

> Note: If you don't want posters to have previous identities, don't call for them to be banned for expressing views contrary to your own. My original UKC identity - quite some time back - was my first name followed by my surname!

Wintertree can ask to have you banned, but unless you've done something to upset Alan or the other mods you won't be.

OP Dave Garnett 22 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

> Hope you both get well soon. 

Hi H (and Jon!). I’ve had a rough few days. Very unusual for me to take a day off sick, let alone a week. Gradually improving now.  Amazed I wrote all that stuff about fugu, literally my fevered imagination!

Jane is pretty much over it and is likely to be the first to get bored silly by the 10 days isolation.

No idea whether we have the new delta+ variant (they are sequencing a proportion of the PCRs but they don’t report individual cases as far as I know) but it’s statistically unlikely and there’s plenty of the normal sort around in this part of the world at the moment (900+ per 100k locally last time I checked.  If you’re likely to be passing you’re still very welcome but you might want to give it a few weeks! Months probably.

Thanks for your kind wishes anyway, nice of you.

 oureed 23 Oct 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> You were telling lies about me (claiming I've been asking for you to be banned because I disagree with you). 

I refer to you in the 3rd person in my response to Offwidth, the people who have called for me to be banned are referred to in the 2nd person. This constant need to explain everything is the reason our conversations quickly become tedious.

12
 deepsoup 23 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> FFS, I was conversing with Offwidth, not you!

In the post you're talking about you edited the bit that automatically appeared at the top of your post saying "In reply to Offwidth" so that it read "In reply to the thread" instead.  Not that it matters much, but you were obviously not addressing your comments to Offwidth specifically and actually went out of your way at the time to make that plain.

I mention this only because it's a small but very easily verifiable example of how willing you are to be quite dishonest in your attempts to get in a dig at wintertree.

 Robert Durran 23 Oct 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Give a Boeing 787 a go - the composite* airframe allows it to run both higher pressurisation and moisture, and it makes a huge difference to how much like death I feel after a long haul flight.  Truly game-changing stuff.  Lovely big windows, too, it's a bit like being on a flying train.

Except that the crew can remotely black out the big windows. Having paid extra for a window seat last time I flew on one, I was gutted and furious that they were blacked out as we flew in the early morning across the transition from tropical rainforerst to Kalahari desert on a flight to Johannesburg. I want to control when I have he window open having paid for it! I would actually avoid 787's when possible for this reason.

 oureed 24 Oct 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

>  you edited the bit that automatically appeared at the top of your post saying "In reply to Offwidth" so that it read "In reply to the thread" instead.  

>  it's a small but very easily verifiable example of how willing you are to be quite dishonest in your attempts to get in a dig at wintertree.

I encourage anyone interested to verify the above (hint: it's not true, deepsoup has mistakenly attributed Offwidth's edit to me). The post in question is from Fri 15.36

2
 Neil Williams 24 Oct 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Except that the crew can remotely black out the big windows.

They can, but they don't actually black fully out - you can still just about see stuff, unlike when cabin crew come and make you close conventional ones.

 Robert Durran 24 Oct 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> They can, but they don't actually black fully out - you can still just about see stuff.

They seemed blacked out virtually to the point of uselessness to me.

> .....unlike when cabin crew come and make you close conventional ones.

But then I can just open it again once they have moved on - when I've paid for a window seat to see an incredible part of the world from the sky, I am going to do so.

Post edited at 18:12
 deepsoup 25 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

D'Oh!  Well, I'm usually willing 'fess up to having made a mistake, but I see this post is addressing everyone except me so I'm not sure whether I'm actually allowed to respond.  Ha ha.

 oureed 25 Oct 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Of course you can respond deepsoup!

The point wasn't that I didn't want Wintertree to respond, it was that he thought I was addressing (accusing) him when I wasn't.

Post edited at 13:50
3
 deepsoup 25 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

> Of course you can respond deepsoup!

Indeed.  I wrote "ha ha" because I think the idea that I might need your permission is funny.  Anyone is entitled to respond to any post on here, it's a public forum.  If a comment is private it belongs in an email not a forum post.

'Accusing' and 'addressing' are entirely different things, it's weird the way you conflate them there.  If I hypothetically say to a third party on here "That oureed is a right dishonest dickhead isn't he?" I'm accusing you of being a right dishonest dickhead just as much as I am if I address that comment directly to you.

 oureed 25 Oct 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

You've just gone and done it again! 

Go check my post. I used the 3rd person when talking to Offwidth about Wintertree, the 2nd person when addressing everyone else.

Do try to keep up!

2
 deepsoup 25 Oct 2021
In reply to oureed:

No, your previous post is irrelevant and the mistake is yours this time. 
(If I do you the courtesy of assuming that you have made an honest mistake and aren't just being a dick.)


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