UKC

/ Creatine, yay or nay?

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Northernladlovesgravy - on 11 Feb 2018

Used to use it when i went to gym, helped out for power but not sure if it would help climbing? Had a good read up about increasing pump but would that actually be a good thing for training 

wbo - on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:I'd say nay.

A. You're not, according to your profile climbing hard grades  yet so you should be getting big gains from improving footwork, technique, learning to relax etc.

B. As well as any strengh gains, it comes with weight gain.  How's your power to weight ratio?

 

bouldery bits - on 11 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

No supplements for me please.

Just proper food. (And coffee and cake... But that's why I'm rubbish!)

2
Smears on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

Creatine causes water retention .

 

No thanks 

2
cb294 - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

Are you sure you train hard enough to make it worth the effort? More precisely, how fast do you need to recover so you can benefit again from the next training session, i.e., how often do you train per day?

Unless you do multiple sessions per day, or at the very least do long, hard training sessions every day I do not really see the point.


CB

1
Imedio - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Smears:

Yeah because holding on to a small amount of water so our muscles can work efficiently sounds like a terrible trade off

Smears on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Imedio:

> Yeah because holding on to a small amount of water so our muscles can work efficiently sounds like a terrible trade off

 

Are you always dehydrated then ?

Bloat yourself out .

2
fromsinkingships on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

I used to use in the gym when I was younger and thought it was really good, but nowadays it just seems to upset my stomach. I've recently started drinking a large coffee before I go climbing and I've found that that has similar benefits.

Imedio - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Smears:

No I don’t even use creating although there is an awful lot of stigma against it which is unnecessary exaggerated and often unfounded yes you do retain small amounts of water although if you keep yourself hydrated you don’t tend to retain much.  Also after using creating for a few months or even just a few weeks you will have gained strength that you will keep after stoping Supplementing with creative.  The water retention really isn’t an issue and even if you find a short-term issue, That will be gone when you finish creatine cycle anyway

1
douwe - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Imedio:

How do you know, if you don't use it?

BnB - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Imedio:

> No I don’t even use creating although there is an awful lot of stigma against it which is unnecessary exaggerated and often unfounded yes you do retain small amounts of water although if you keep yourself hydrated you don’t tend to retain much.  Also after using creating for a few months or even just a few weeks you will have gained strength that you will keep after stoping Supplementing with creative.  The water retention really isn’t an issue and even if you find a short-term issue, That will be gone when you finish creatine cycle anyway

How long after dosing with creatine does it affect your spelling?

3
Imedio - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to douwe:

Before climbing I was a power lifter. I also have a keen interest in anatomy and bio mechanics. The people who know most about how cocaine works on the brain almost defiantly don’t take it.

 

im typing fast as I’m doing other things, shame it’s one of those forums where we value a bad spelling joke over science, I’m out

Post edited at 13:24
4
cb294 - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Imedio:

> ... The people who know most about how cocaine works on the brain almost defiantly don’t take it.

That must be one if the top typos or autocorrect mistakes of the year so far....

Creatine (which is what I think we are still talking about) does not usually have an effect on your brain, unless it becomes limiting. This can either happen by using up your muscle creatine stores faste than you can replenish them, or by an unbalanced vegetarian or vegan diet that reduces your ability to synthesize enough creatine.

Under these conditions, creatine supplement can significantly increase your muscle function and especially reduce the regeneration time required before the next training session can again be productive. However, it is very hard at an amateur level to stick to a training regime where the difference in recovery times achieved by creatine supplementation becomes significant.

Under creatine stress, supplementation has a clear and well documented effect on general intelligence and memory tasks, so if you, say, want to stick to a vegan diet during physical exertion (as the creatine pools of muscles and brain are not separate), supplementation is likely to boost brain function. 

Cocaine may also help....

CB

 

jungle - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

I've trained on and off for years and with lots of different people. Everyone reacts [edit: responds!] different to it, some people get gains and some don't.

All of the benefits to climbing I've heard about are all anecdotal (never tried it myself for climbing), whereas with muscle gain and power there is actual evidence supporting this. 

The best thing to do is try it and find out. The chances are though, you'll probably train harder because you know you're taking a supplement and will more likely get a false-positive from the resulting improvement!

Post edited at 15:36
Murderous_Crow - on 12 Feb 2018
In reply to Northernladlovesgravy:

Supplementation is made out to be a big deal. It's not. People talk it to death (and I'm going to do so as well, so apologies in advance for the long post) but really of far more concern is whether you are training effectively, eating well, and resting sufficiently. The amount of discussion supplementation gets, vastly outstrips its potential benefits.

That said there are a few supplements which do show consistent positive ergogenic effects, and creatine is one. The evidence for it is solid, with some caveats:

- those who benefit most are those with a dietary deficiency (it's found naturally in foods particularly red meat, salmon and tuna)

- the effects are statistically significant, but not huge - don't expect wonders

- a small increase in weight gain via water retention has been noted 

- its efficacy seems to be limited to power-dependent activity

Here's the position stand from the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2048496/

So it's pretty safe, and it works - albeit individual response varies. But the questions for climbers surround the effects on power to weight. The research is pretty conclusive for most power-dependent sports, that is to say that creatine is generally beneficial, and thus supplementation outweighs (sorry!) the negatives.

I suspect this holds true for weight-categorised sports, and that any unwanted increases in bodyweight can be offset with appropriate strategies. Climbing is unique however in also depending hugely on finger strength, which may be affected disproportionately by increases in body weight. 

Given creatine can affect both power and weight, its benefits for climbers in general are likely to remain unclear. Some may benefit, others won't. Logically, creatine will likely only be helpful if one is focusing on power and strength-dependent moves with long rest periods, rather than endurance activity. 

On the plus side it is not ergolytic at all (not damaging to strength or power) and it's pretty cheap so there's no harm trying it for a bit, especially if your diet is low in creatine e.g. vegetarian diet. For you personally, WBO's points are spot on.  Given your apparent technical level (similar to mine) you may benefit more from firstly learning to effectively use what power you have, than from increasing that power. 

 


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