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David Attenborough and depression

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 veteye 13 Sep 2020

I'm part way through the "Extinction" documentary, and the main conclusion is that we are screwed, together with the adjunct idea, that I want to torture the people who work in the live animal markets in Asia and China, in the same way that they maltreat the animals under their vile control.

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In reply to veteye:

This is what you want.

This is what you get.

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 veteye 13 Sep 2020
In reply to bouldery bits:

Actually I neither want maltreatment of animals, nor do I want the rape of the land by developers across the world.

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In reply to veteye:

I agree with your initial observation.

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 veteye 13 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

So the rest of you are unaffected by the poor prognosis for us all?

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 Sealwife 13 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

Had to stop watching.  Don’t currently feel up to dealing with the level of despair it was inducing.

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 veteye 13 Sep 2020
In reply to Sealwife:

I felt similarly. Yet we have to face it and try to change the ways of the world, including other powers that seem to be in denial about their illogical practices.

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In reply to veteye:

Are you a vegan? 

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 veteye 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

No. I'm an omnivore, but I do eat quite a lot of home-made vegan meals, and I do have a fair number of vegan meals in the freezer. After that program, I wonder about eating fish, although I mainly eat farmed salmon on that score. (Yes I know that there can be issues with farmed salmon). I also have not eaten beef since 1988.

What are your nutritional requirements?

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 Ridge 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

Like sealwife I wasn't up to watching it. I've seen it all before, and the world won't do a thing to stop it.

TBH I don't watch wildlife films anymore, because I know that in the end, and quite possibly in my lifetime, much of the beauty being filmed will be gone forever.

The only thing that will protect species other than humans is something far more infectious and deadly than Covid 19.

Post edited at 07:59
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In reply to veteye:

Like others I didn't feel I could watch the program.  It would probably have affected me for a week. 

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 mrphilipoldham 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

There's a lot on twitter about farmed salmon at the moment. A couple of days following an e-diary from someone who lives local to a farm was enough to stop me buying it ever again. 

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 Ridge 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

My take on humanity in my darker moments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcx-nf3kH_M&

(Not really, but I do think the extinction of humanity wouldn't be a bad thing for the planet).

Post edited at 08:07
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 veteye 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> TBH I don't watch wildlife films anymore, because I know that in the end, and quite possibly in my lifetime, much of the beauty being filmed will be gone forever.

Sadly it is more than that which will happen. This is about the survival of the world as we know it, and the survival of the human species as well. If there are not enough insects, including bees, and moths, and birds to pollinate plants, then even vegans will not survive. None of us will. 

I reiterate what many have said, i.e. that you just do not see the same number of insects landing on your windscreen when driving; which is just one example of how things are rapidly changing for the worse..

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 Ridge 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

> Sadly it is more than that which will happen. This is about the survival of the world as we know it, and the survival of the human species as well.

Our posts seem to have crossed. What is so special about humanity, (other than we're part of that group)?

We're an incredibly destructive predator that's predated so much that we've destroyed our food supply/ecosystem. 

Hopefully nature will take its course before we take every other species with us.

Post edited at 08:14
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 Graeme G 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

Never watched it. Thanks for sharing, that’s absolutely brilliant.

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 kipper12 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

I thought it was one of  most depressing and sobering pieces of TV Ive watched.  It’s up there with the world at war episode on the concentration camps, for those of a certain vintage.  It was heartbreaking to see the two northern white rhinos.  No idea what the answers are, except maybe erase us from the planet earth and allow it to recover from the carnage we are visiting on it at the moment. 

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 RBonney 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

A vegan diet is one of the best ways to reduce your carbon footprint. Farming meat uses a lot more land than plants so it destroys more habitat for wild animals. Animals eaten in the western world are often treated awfully and no doubt it would be considered torture if it was done to people. 

A vegan diet can also provide you with all the nutrition you need. Why is it OK for you to consume animal meat and products but not OK for the people you mentioned in your first post? (BTW I'm not saying eating meat is wrong, that's your choice, it just seemed to me that your views regarding the environment and your diet are a little contradictory).

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 veteye 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

I generally agree with your sentiments. It is the ignorant, the stupid, the uncaring, and above all else, the politicians, who make matters worse.

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 veteye 14 Sep 2020
In reply to RBonney:

Got to work just now, but briefly: The people in the documentary showed no care for the animals that they dealt with. We have no allowance of similar practices in this country. Animals are not confined to such tiny spaces. We do not pick up young calves, the size of a German Shepherd dog by the scruff.

I do not eat lots of meat.

I do eat mutton. You could not grow crops on the hills where a lot of the mutton comes from.

I buy free range poultry products, though I know that that does not always resolve all the issues.

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 Dangerous Dave 14 Sep 2020
 Graeme G 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> > Sadly it is more than that which will happen. This is about the survival of the world as we know it, and the survival of the human species as well.

> Hopefully nature will take its course before we take every other species with us.

Thing is. If we did get wiped out there’s no saying in a million years another species wouldn’t rise to the top and create the same global carnage. 

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 RBonney 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

I don't know about that. This is just one article I remember you seeing. I'm sure there are others out there. Battery farmed chickens are still in use. Perhaps we're not as cruel to our animals but I wouldn't want to be one. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/morrisons-amazon-uk-spanish-sausages-el-pozo-pigs-animal-equality-animal-welfare-farming-a8195571.html

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 RBonney 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Dangerous Dave:

A huge amount of intensive farming is done to feed animals though. Cows, pigs and sheep (even chickens) are a less efficient way of producing calories by farming.

Also animals contribute to climate change more as they release greater amounts of greenhouse gasses.

Thirdly you can be vegan and avoid soya products. Soya isn't the only alternative to all things animal based. 

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 kipper12 14 Sep 2020
In reply to RBonney:

Wouldn’t some attempt to cut food waste, estimated to be around 40 % help.  It’s shameful this is so high

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 Dangerous Dave 14 Sep 2020
In reply to RBonney:

Agreed, did you read the article? The model of farming talked about does not use soya.

Food products produced intensively meat or otherwise is not sustainable. Parts of Spain where the grow vegetables have fewer than 100 cycles left. What are you going to do when the soil runs out? 

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 Tringa 14 Sep 2020
In reply to RBonney:

One of the major problems is an ever increasing world population. This demands more space to live, more food and more resources and produces more waste.

The Earth is not infinite in resources and space so we cannot go on increasing the population. The population growth is slowing down and one estimate suggests the population will level out at or soon after the end of this century -

"Based on this, the UN Population Division expects world population, currently (2020) at 7.8 billion, to level out at or soon after the end of the 21st Century at 10.9 billion (the median line),[4][5] assuming a continuing decrease in the global average fertility rate from 2.5 births per woman during the 2015–2020 period to 1.9 in 2095–2100, according to the medium-variant projection.[6]"

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth

However, that means still 80 years of growth. Given that people are living longer and even allowing for an increase in the working life we will still need to address how the increasing older population are looked after and cared for.

We need to move away from the current system of pensions for the elderly being paid for from the National Insurance contributions of today's working population and towards a personal state pensions system  - ie you pay in while you are working and those contributions pay for your pension. This is not perfect, as someone who lives a long time could run out of pension, which will not happen under the current system. However, the present system encourages/needs a sizeable and increasing younger working population, or more taxation.

Dave

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 plyometrics 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

The sooner human beings become extinct, the better. Only then will planet earth and nature be able to begin to heal itself. 

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In reply to Dangerous Dave:

> Food products produced intensively meat or otherwise is not sustainable. Parts of Spain where the grow vegetables have fewer than 100 cycles left. What are you going to do when the soil runs out? 

This is just hype to scare folk. Technically you don't need soil to grow anything, it's just a medium to contain the components, it could be any material that will hold moisture, nutrients and fungus. 

I'm not suggesting it's a good thing. But number of 'theoretical' cycles left is just unconfirmed nonsense. 

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 wintertree 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Dangerous Dave:

> What are you going to do when the soil runs out? 

The Sirius mine in North Yorkshire has been built with the intent to supply fertiliser to over-farmed fields for the next century.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodsmith_Mine

We currently waste a shocking amount of the stuff fields need through disposing of sewage; I suspect the mass safe conversion of sludge to fertiliser is going to be a growth area.

There’s more and more containerised underground of vertical hydroponic farming of salad and vegetables near cities that uses no soil; currently it only makes sense where freshness has a premium and transport costs are significant.  

I’m much more concerned about the endless conversion of habitat and forest into farm land than the exhaustion of soil.

Post edited at 10:09
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 Dangerous Dave 14 Sep 2020
In reply to wintertree:

> I’m much more concerned about the endless conversion of habitat and forest into farm land than the exhaustion of soil.

100% agreed

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 Trevers 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> The only thing that will protect species other than humans is something far more infectious and deadly than Covid 19.

Human stupidity. But unfortunately that's the cause, not the answer.

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 upordown 14 Sep 2020
In reply to plyometrics:

> The sooner human beings become extinct, the better. Only then will planet earth and nature be able to begin to heal itself. 

Yes, this is how I feel too. I watched the programme because I felt I should but it made me feel physically sick and in despair.

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In reply to veteye:

David Attenborough hasn't been a happy bunny for ten or fifteen years or so.  I gave up watching his programmes because they were too depressing.  I know that things are bad and if we carry on this way we're screwed, I don't need telling.

But many others may do, so Saint David can keep on telling them till the penny drops.  I shan't be watching though.

T.

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 Trevers 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

> What is so special about humanity?

Humanity is the only manifestation of the Universe (that we know of) that is able to comprehend itself and its place in the Universe, experience itself objectively and question itself. We are capable of extreme cruelty but also of extreme sacrifice and compassion. Most of us are not inherently bad, but the nature of the threat is what makes it incredibly difficult to organise a collective response to meet the threat.

I share your despair about the future, but I sincerely hope that humanity survives along with the planet. But it's clear that right now, we're not in any sort of enlightened state but are stuck in the same cycles of progress and destruction that have plagued us since the dawn of recorded history.

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In reply to veteye:

I stumbled across the Facebook page of the 'UK Prime Minister' last night. The comments on that left me very depressed, too...

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 RBonney 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Dangerous Dave:

The point still remains that meat farming is inefficient. You're better off eating the crops yourself then feeding the crops to animals. And the farming talked about in that article is still worse for the environment than the forest that could be in its place.  And how much meat can be produced using the methods in the article? Not enough to allow for the current rate of meat consumption.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/feed-required-to-produce-one-kilogram-of-meat-or-dairy-product

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/28/can-we-ditch-intensive-farming-and-still-feed-the-world

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/19/why-you-should-go-animal-free-arguments-in-favour-of-meat-eating-debunked-plant-based

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 Phil79 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

> I'm part way through the "Extinction" documentary, and the main conclusion is that we are screwed....

I had to stop watching it, as found it pretty depressing.

I'm not one for head in sand behavior, and I'm aware of the huge damage we're are collectively doing, but when drawn together in such a stark and terrifying way it all looks rather bleak.

I watched a bit with my daughter and just felt pretty ashamed that we've f****ed it up so badly.

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 Graeme G 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Phil79:

> I watched a bit with my daughter and just felt pretty ashamed that we've f****ed it up so badly.

Thing is, we’ve been f***ing it up for thousands of years. We’re doing nothing now that we didn’t do since we could make tools. We’ve just got significantly better at doing it.

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 Phil79 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

> Thing is, we’ve been f***ing it up for thousands of years. We’re doing nothing now that we didn’t do since we could make tools. We’ve just got significantly better at doing it.

Agreed. Its just the acceleration in the rate of destruction in the last 40-50 years or so is terrifying (i.e. 2/3 of biodiversity lost, population from 3 to nearly 8 billion, etc). I dread to think what it will be like when my kids are my age, in another 30 years or so.

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 AllanMac 14 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

Given that the avoidance of painful truth is the source of denialism, the very people who really should have watched the programme, probably didn't.

It was despairing viewing for me. The wet market footage and cruelty to animals also made me feel physically sick, depressed, frustrated and angry. Which I guess was the point of the hard-hitting nature of the programme. The trouble is, it was largely preaching to the converted.

It is difficult to know what to do with all this frustration and visceral outrage, given that nearly all channels of accountability of those who have the wherewithal to do something about climate change, are becoming more and more closed off. Voting doesn't change anything much, petitioning is ignored, peaceful protest is impotent. Even the rule of law is becoming a weakened overseer of basic morality and ethics.

When all accountability becomes so far removed from public scrutiny, there are very few other options left open. Even British reserve will become tested to its limit, and I shudder to think what will almost inevitably happen next.

Edit: typos

Post edited at 12:34
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 TomD89 14 Sep 2020
In reply to plyometrics:

If your so keen for humans to disappear, why not volunteer to disappear yourself to help reduce population? Or are you wishing extinction on the rest of us?

Unless your a hermit living deep in the forests with complete self sufficiency and harmony with your surroundings then your benefiting from a long history of human existence, ingenuity, art and culture. Everything you known is of human construction, or your rely on human made equipment and skills to survive in the non-human environment. 

Is your plan to kill all humans so goats and deer can wander the earth pointlessly reproducing until, what? A time when they evolve sentience and repeat the same mistakes? Why not dedicate your life to solving the issue rather than wishing us dead. Pretty pathetic and ill considered stance in my opinion.

Post edited at 12:39
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 plyometrics 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

> Is your plan to kill all humans...?

Depends whether the DeathRay6000 laser gun (the XL version) I ordered from Amazon ends up arriving; it’s already more than a week late.

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 Ridge 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

> If your so keen for humans to disappear, why not volunteer to disappear yourself to help reduce population? Or are you wishing extinction on the rest of us?

I can't speak for plyometrics, but the mess that an ever expanding human population are making of the planet is a key factor in our decision not to have children.

> Unless your a hermit living deep in the forests with complete self sufficiency and harmony with your surroundings then your benefiting from a long history of human existence, ingenuity, art and culture. Everything you known is of human construction, or your rely on human made equipment and skills to survive in the non-human environment. 

So what?

> Is your plan to kill all humans so goats and deer can wander the earth pointlessly reproducing until, what? A time when they evolve sentience and repeat the same mistakes? 

Humans wander the planet pointlessly reproducing. It's just our arrogance and unique combination of intelligence and absolute stupidity than makes us 'special'.

> Why not dedicate your life to solving the issue rather than wishing us dead. Pretty pathetic and ill considered stance in my opinion.

The only way to solve the issue is either humanity evolves into something less destructive than apes with advanced machinery and weapons or a cataclysm that reduces the population and sends us back to pre-industrial times. We are the problem.

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 plyometrics 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

Agreed and thanks for demonstrating the patience I didn’t have to respond in a considerate way. 😊

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 Graeme G 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

A well constructed and articulate response. Until you had to go and fire out an insult in the last sentence.

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 TomD89 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

I only argue against wishing us all extinct and challenge anyone who wants less humans to be the first in line volunteer to be euthanized and composted for the greater good.

If we're all pointless replicators then forgive me for wanting to survive just as any other pointless replicator aims to. If humans aren't special, then neither are other animals. If your claim is that animals are more special than humans and deserve to live more than us then say that. I feel more special than a wasp, the sheer arrogance!

The Eden like paradise people think the world becomes if humans no longer exist is a pure fantasy. I'm not against evolving and improving all aspects of life on earth, but lets be real.

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 TomD89 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Fair criticism, that was me venting the irk I felt from such a blasé suggestion that we all cease breathing for the sake of some imagined human free utopia.

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 plyometrics 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

Hi Tom,

Sorry the post irked you, not my intention.

However, for clarity, not once did I suggest, in a blasé way, that anyone ceases breathing. 

ATB,

Plyometrics. 

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 TomD89 14 Sep 2020
In reply to plyometrics:

> The sooner human beings become extinct, the better. Only then will planet earth and nature be able to begin to heal itself. 

What's sooner than the present moment?

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 plyometrics 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

> What's sooner than the present moment?

I’m afraid I’ll have to leave that one to the astrophysicists in the room.

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 Ridge 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

> I only argue against wishing us all extinct and challenge anyone who wants less humans to be the first in line volunteer to be euthanized and composted for the greater good.

No one is advocating killing people*, just reducing numbers by natural wastage, so to speak, and not mindlessly churning out more people that can't be sustained.

*Although plenty probably deserve it.

> If we're all pointless replicators then forgive me for wanting to survive just as any other pointless replicator aims to. If humans aren't special, then neither are other animals. 

Agreed, but surely a self sustaining, bio diverse planet is has more "value" than a monoculture (that will destroy itself anyway)?

> If your claim is that animals are more special than humans and deserve to live more than us then say that. I feel more special than a wasp, the sheer arrogance.

If you're alking me if  I think humanity should survive at the expense of almost every other species on the planet then my answer would be no.

> The Eden like paradise people think the world becomes if humans no longer exist is a pure fantasy. I'm not against evolving and improving all aspects of life on earth, but lets be real.

The reality is 10 billion people on a single planet will inevitably destroy it. We are truly f*cked, we'll kill each other over water and other resources.

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In reply to veteye:

It's that problem of exponential growth again. Viral infections, dominant species...

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 Tringa 14 Sep 2020
In reply to captain paranoia:

This from the last episode of David Attenborough's Living Planet is well worth giving up about three minutes of your time. The video quality is a bit poor but at about 35 years old (first broadcast in April 1984) it is to be expected.

Although some progress has been made since then, the message could easily be from today. We don't seem to have learned a lot since then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNhwLe8hSfQ&

Dave

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 Timmd 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

I share your sentiments about it being too depressing to watch. The only hopeful thing I can find to do, is to think about my diet and lifestyle and stick to wild Muntjac from the UK as my meat and a protein source, and ponder dairy alternatives while sharing that I'm doing that with people in a way which doesn't make them feel moralised at (I didn't take much notice of my friend when she did that with me). 

It's a small thing, but beef farmers in the UK are apparently noticing that fewer people are buying beef, and feeling the financial hit, which is a sign that people can change their lifestyles in response to information. 

The water sources is a difficult one, because the world's mountains are responsible for supplying much of our fresh water, which is where the snows and glaciers are gradually melting, they're places of mineral reserves  and are 'hot spots' politically and militarily too. It's why China wants to keep hold of Tibet, IIRC it supplies water to India and Pakistan IIRC and other parts of Asia (and China of course)...

Post edited at 16:26
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 Graeme G 14 Sep 2020
In reply to TomD89:

And fair play for coming back to me. I agree it’s a somewhat strange position to wish humanity wiped out, when you’re part of humanity.

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 Timmd 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

> And fair play for coming back to me. I agree it’s a somewhat strange position to wish humanity wiped out, when you’re part of humanity.

I've slightly concluded that 'humans are daft', when after 20 years of us being told about climate change, people still fly off to snowy places and express disappointment at seeing not very much snow. I know it's grumpy of me, but we've had ages of being told about the impact of flying. Join the dots, peeps? It's down to oneself as much as everybody else.

It can be hard not to be a bit 'bah humph' when it's not that complicated, though I appreciate it does me no good.

Post edited at 21:23
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 PMG 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Trevers

"Humanity is the only manifestation of the Universe (that we know of) that is able to comprehend itself and its place in the Universe, experience itself objectively and question itself."

Do you think we are gods? A pinnacle of existence?

From our perspective animals are pretty dumb. Yet many species have been able to survive for millions of years. Our race still has a long way to go to prove itself.

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In reply to PMG:

What an extraordinary non sequitur your second and third sentence is.

Post edited at 23:14
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 Timmd 14 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: That should be are, not is? 

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In reply to Timmd:

'Your second and third sentence' was shorthand for 'the argument contained in your second and third sentence'.

Or, it could have been put this way round: 'The argument contained in your second and third sentence is an extraordinary non sequitur'. A non sequitur, by its nature, is singular.

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 Trevers 15 Sep 2020
In reply to PMG:

> In reply to Trevers

> "Humanity is the only manifestation of the Universe (that we know of) that is able to comprehend itself and its place in the Universe, experience itself objectively and question itself."

> Do you think we are gods? A pinnacle of existence?

No, that's certainly not what I was attempting to say. More that in the absence of any evidence of gods or alien civilisations, we're the best there is.

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 TomD89 15 Sep 2020
In reply to Ridge:

My original dispute was with plyometrics saying "the sooner we're extinct the better". The rest is adding stuff I didn't dispute or raise in the first place. 

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 veteye 15 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

"a non sequitur, by its nature, is singular."  (Should there not be a hyphen in non-sequitur?)

Yet you had the word "and" in there; thus it was not singular, since you did not include the words "the argument....."

Whatever the case, the context is not keeping to the sentiment of the thread.

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In reply to veteye:

The argument was implied ('it was shorthand for'). I could probably have saved myself this complication if I'd just said his second sentence was a non sequitur. According to Fowler, Oxford Book of English Usage, Bryson, etc., non sequitur is not hyphenated.

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 Blanche DuBois 15 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> What an extraordinary non sequitur your second and third sentence is.

In what way?

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 Big Bruva 15 Sep 2020
In reply to RBonney:

> You're better off eating the crops yourself then feeding the crops to animals. 

...or eat animals that have eaten grass. Humans can't digest grass

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 PMG 15 Sep 2020
In reply to Trevers:

"... we're the best there is."

We define what "the best" means: being smart, and then we declare ourselves winners. But do we know what the name of the game is? Survival? Happiness? Salvation?

Let's consider survival. Being brainy certainly helps, but it also has costs. One side effect of the big brain is that our social interactions are complex and expensive. We need big cars, big houses and cruise trips to impress others.

Due to our technical skills (which served us well in many aspects of our existence), we have the means to destroy humankind. Other animals do not have to carry any such burden. We have already decimated other large mammals except for domesticated animals. What or who will be next? Us?

I do not claim that the future is necessarily bleak. I simply do not think that after 100.000 years, modern humans have already proved themselves.

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 LeeWood 15 Sep 2020
In reply to Big Bruva:

> ...or eat animals that have eaten grass. Humans can't digest grass

yes, the case is restated here - it's the intensive production at fault

https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/13-reasons-boycottbigmeat-and-build-better-food-farming-system

point No.12 is worthy of note also:

'12. Protect against future pandemics'

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 Trevers 15 Sep 2020
In reply to PMG:

Really, I think you're reading too much into this, I'm not laying out a thorough and consistent philosophical position. I'm not claiming a universal meaning or moral framework. I just think that while we can do utterly idiotic things like elevate people like Trump and Johnson to leadership positions, we can also do incredible things like sequence the human genome or detect the collisions of black holes billions of years ago. We're not all bad and I don't want to see us wipe ourselves out.

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 Timmd 16 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> 'Your second and third sentence' was shorthand for 'the argument contained in your second and third sentence'.

> Or, it could have been put this way round: 'The argument contained in your second and third sentence is an extraordinary non sequitur'. A non sequitur, by its nature, is singular.

A jazz quartet is a singular thing, but people still say 'What a good quartet those musicians are'. I don't understand why the same grammar rule wouldn't apply to a singular non sequitur, or why an unspoken context would change it?

Post edited at 11:57
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 plyometrics 16 Sep 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> ‘What a good quartet those musicians are'.

Whilst I’m not sure you’d ever phrase it like that, I’d argue that statement is grammatically correct as it’s the ‘musicians’ (plural) you are referring to. 

Perhaps it’s more likely you’d phrase it:

‘What a good quartet that is‘

Or

’What good musicians they are’

Either way, it’s another great UKC thread diversion!

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 Timmd 16 Sep 2020
In reply to plyometrics:

Perhaps I'm from parents who've spoken quite formally, but it's how I've heard things put, or more informally 'They are a talented quartet'. Having a teacher and engineer as parents possibly seems to have meant they liked to be accurate.

Yes it is, a classic UKC diversion It'd just stuck in the back of my mind, I couldn't dislodge it.

Post edited at 12:46
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 druridge 16 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

At a time when the world has never needed great / visionary political leaders more....... here we are....not in a good place. How will we be judged by those who come after us?

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 Timmd 16 Sep 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> Perhaps I'm from parents who've spoken quite formally, but it's how I've heard things put, or more informally 'They are a talented quartet'. Having a teacher and engineer as parents possibly seems to have meant they liked to be accurate.

A sis in law says we can be pedantic, so maybe it's just that. ;-)

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 veteye 16 Sep 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> A sis in law says we can be pedantic, so maybe it's just that. ;-)

A pedant with no hyphens!

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 veteye 16 Sep 2020
In reply to druridge:

If things go really badly, those who come after will be struggling badly, just in order to survive. They may not survive.

Otherwise we will be seen to be the ultimate of the self-centred, and foolish generation. The ones who wasted resources, almost endlessly, and without a true care.

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In reply to veteye:

Too right. 

It is not just the Chinese wet markets that are responsible, our consumerism and expanding population.

The more people the more food is needed. 

No one is telling us to stop reproducing. 

MS

Post edited at 23:29
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In reply to Tringa:

Too right.

Why do people need to have more than 2-3 children? 

Why get drunk and accidently get someone pregnant? 

In my opinion a lot of overpopulation could be avoided by our own actions.

In the third world children are dying of things can be cured and prevented. 

Post edited at 23:59
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In reply to Ridge:

Too right. 

I don't think it is too late.

MS

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In reply to veteye:

I'm am omnivore to but more vegetarian than meat eater. 

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In reply to captain paranoia:

Too right. 

We are at the top of the food chain and our population is still growing exponentially. 

Look at the R numbers in highly densely populated cities! 

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In reply to Tringa:

In my honest opinion, I think overpopulation is one of the reasons why COVID 19 spread so quickly. 

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 brianjcooper 20 Sep 2020
In reply to veteye:

The reply from the scientist who was asked the question "Will the planet survive?" Was "Yes".  "But we won't be on it anymore".  We are running out of time to correct this.

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In reply to brianjcooper:

> The reply from the scientist who was asked the question "Will the planet survive?" Was "Yes".  "But we won't be on it anymore".  We are running out of time to correct this.

The human species will be around, it won't cause our extinction. There might be mass migration, wars, starvation, disease... but we won't be extinct. 

What we are is running out of time to protect the environment that other species inhabit. How much effort we put in is relative how to how high a value we've placed on those species. In a million years time this little blip will just be another barely distinguishable thin line in the rock strata.

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 AllanMac 14:53 Sun
In reply to summo:

There might be mass migration, wars, starvation, disease... but we won't be extinct. 

I don't think so either, but I do wonder what demographic would be the ones most likely to survive if we manage to avoid extinction?

Would it be those who are wealthy enough to buy enough protection (and property in cooler latitudes...note Trump's bid for Greenland), or those who have the intelligence and resilience to adapt using what little they have at hand?

Maybe it's a bit of both, but I'd like to think intelligence and adaptability would win hands down, since genetically, educationally and socially that would be by far the most desirable - and more likely to perpetuate a more respectful, symbiotic relationship with ecosystems in those who are able to survive. 

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 Pefa 15:52 Sun
In reply to TomD89:

> Is your plan to kill all humans so goats and deer can wander the earth pointlessly reproducing until, what? A time when they evolve sentience and repeat the same mistakes.

All creatures have sentience already.

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In reply to Pefa:

In my honest opinion there needs to a Balance It Is (E7 6c) and Equilibrium (E10 7a) with both humans and other sentien beings and with the population spread.

Are you Russian Orthodox? Do you know that it if you have 5 or more children the Russian Orthodox Church will give you reward you well?! 

Post edited at 16:43
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In reply to Dangerous Dave:

Agreed 

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In reply to AllanMac:

Intelligent, wealthy and a hint of a psychopath would seem beneficial to prosper in climate change. 

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In reply to veteye:

In UK yes, but in some EU countries and America they still have large battery hen farms.

You have forgotten about the exotic pet trade, horse racing and dog racing. 

It was not long ago fox hunting was banned. 

MS

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In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Can you inform me if the issues regarding farmed salmon please and does this affect tins bought at Aldi or there packs of smoked salmon.

ta

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In reply to Dave the Rave:

I came to know of it via https://twitter.com/saveourlochs?s=21 ..plenty more reading on from there! Can't help with the Aldi question, but would like to know as it's where I do my shopping and I have previously enjoyed their salmon!

Post edited at 21:58
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 LeeWood 08:01 Mon
In reply to summo:

> Intelligent, wealthy and a hint of a psychopath would seem beneficial to prosper in climate change. 

maybe Musk et al *really* think the the (s)elect few will all end up on another planet which they can also rape of all natural worth

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In reply to LeeWood:

> maybe Musk et al *really* think the the (s)elect few will all end up on another planet which they can also rape of all natural worth

As we are just a collection of particles grouped together, for a very short length of time in a very vast universe would it matter if they did or didn't? 

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