UKC

There are an increasing number of people out exercising who seem to think that they have the right of way to dodge into the road in order to avoid running too close to another pedestrian, for fear of a reasonably low risk of catching the Corona virus, in passing the other person. In doing this, they seem to 

a) Assume that car drivers can read their minds every time

b) That the said drivers have enough time and space to respond in order to take avoiding action, and 

c) Obviously think that the risk of death by motor vehicle collsion at 30 or 40 miles per hour is less of a threat than the threat of viral infection.

Some runners are even running in the road all the time, even when there are no other pedestrians on the pavement, and sometimes, even when it is a narrow road.

Is this something that someone in the media needs to point out as being foolhardy in many (but not all) cases?

Car drivers don't own the roads. They should respond appropriately, this is why we have so many cyclist deaths from arrogant drivers.

I cycle, but I did not mention cyclists. 

So far I and other drivers have responded, "appropriately", but one of these times there will not be enough time for the driver to brake, when a runner runs into the road. (I'm also a runner, and I tend to have a more wary approach)

This is nothing to do with the drivers driving irresponsibly or fast; this is about the runners taking risk with their own bodies, and lives.

Do you really think that some of the behaviours exhibited by runners and cyclists in the quiet period of the lockdown can be be carried forward ad infinitum?  

I almost always run in the road. It's just safer. This was pre-COVID. 

I'm finding runners to be quite arrogant to be honest. Yesterday was bin day and as always the bin lads delight in turning the pavement in to a slalom course.

I'm out walking the dog and when I reach a choke point and someone is coming the other way one of us stops and let's the other through first, sometimes it me and sometimes it's the other person. It's always done with a smile and a word of thanks. I have yet to have a runner do this, they just carry on even if you reach the choke point first and are moving past 2 or 3 bins said runner carries on and brushes past you.I

now try anticipate if I can clear the point before they get there and if not I stop, not had a word of thanks yet. Stepping in to the street is not an option because the street is lined on both sides with parked cars. (or they are parked half on the path to protect their wing mirrors creating more choke points) 

I have seen a lot more people in the middle of the road and I have been one of them on occasion, but it has been so quiet it probably hasn't mattered, but this week its a lot busier and I am sure people will change their behaviour before too long. We have a few small lanes which are official cycle ways and these have been busy with bikes, but also with a few really fast cars driving as if people have taken a 'more exciting' way home. 

The police have put a warning out today for pedestrians to be careful about being in the road (BBC Radio 4 6:43)

On the flip side, when I'm out running I find dog walkers are often the most entitled people on the trails and make little effort to keep themselves and their dogs positioned so it's possible to pass them with a 2m gap ¯_(ツ)_/¯

How about redesigning the road system to give much more footpath space and confine drivers into narrow lanes in the middle.

be a great idea in built up areas

When running I make sure that I give oncoming traffic long enough to see me in the road before stepping out around someone else on the pavement.

What then annoys me is drivers not then giving me more space when there's nothing coming the other way and there's plenty of room.

As for others experience of runners, maybe they're all newbies and haven't learnt to relax and say thank you whenever someone else moves aside to let them past 😊

I think it's great that pedestrian are taking over town and cities.  In Glasgow, pavements with parked cars next to them are not wide enough for social distancing, leave the pavements to the old and parents with children, and every one else can pass on the road.  Car drivers are aware of this so should be driving slower and should do there own risk assessment to anticipate people stepping out onto the road and change there driving behaviour accordingly.  In Scotland no one should be in a rush to get anywhere just now, so not reasonable for some of the excessive speeds you see on quiet roads in built up areas.

But I don't think things can be allowed to go entirely go back to normal when this is all over, cities should be for the people who live in them, reduced air pollution, active healthier lifestyles, the desire and money seems to be there in England at least, and why we not have pedestrian friendly cities like most other European countries.

I have had cars act agressive towards me when I have been cycling, seeing afa cycling family going slow ahead, I slowed down in turn until there is no traffic on right so I can overtake them safely with social distancing, alot of car drivers don't realise this, hence the abuse they have been dishing out, even though we were in a quiet residential area .

That sounds good.

I have seen other car drivers in front of me doing what you say. I think that these drivers may actually have forgotten that they need to stay alert for all carriageway users, as they are used to the generally quieter roads, and their perceptivity is blunted. They are probably talking to friends albeit by hands-free phone call, or their children in the car, and Not paying enough attention. Other drivers do give a wide berth.

I think that you may be right that some of the runners are new to running, as they are flailing with a bottle in their hand, and appear to be struggling.

I'm hoping that the increase in people cycling might improve drivers. If many of those who have taken to bikes during this time then jump back in their cars and remember what it felt like to cycle on a (albeit, quieter) road, hopefully they will drive accordingly. 

I have certainly felt the roads busier this week in Scotland. My commute was on almost empty roads for a while there. This week I have had to remind myself a little about traffic!

Let more drivers in from England and your acuteness of awareness could be further sharpened and Scotland could make more money! Tee-Hee. (Remembering another thread....)

:-}

PS I would try my hardest to avoid the runners and cyclists on the roads.

How about those of us who drive cars do what we are supposed to do when it’s busy and just slow down and be more alert?

Works for me. I had a woman cross a 40mph road yesterday almost in front of me, without looking. I saw what she was going to do a mile off. 
 

If you ride a bike or drive a car, it’s your responsibility to drive and ride with ‘due care and attention’.

Interesting how people are getting categorised by the activities they are doing. The problem isn't with runners or cyclists, drivers or dog walkers, it's with people, or more specifically peoples attitudes. Most of the time when two people need to use the same piece of public space at the same time there's a 50/50 give and take and no problem. But we seem to be seeing more and more of the 'what I'm doing is more important than what your doing' or 'I've got as much right to be here as you' attitudes, so I'm not giving way. So the person that won't give you space on the footpath today is likely to be the one someone else is swearing about on the roads tomorrow.

drivers should reasonably expect pedestrians to step into the road to maintain social distancing and should drive accordingly.

Right. Or if you're out for a run and trying to avoid someone you could just have a wee glance over your shoulder before jumping into the road?

Well yes and no.  It is an important part of driving well to see potential hazards up ahead around the road as well as just on it.  Pedestrians, animals, you name it.  And anticipating what might be about to happen is a big part of that.

Some drivers do take the attitude that a pedestrian stepping in to the road (or a cyclist taking the lane, or whatever) is invading 'their' personal space somehow, which leads to a sort of defensive mindset and they become reluctant to back down, as they see it, and give them the space they need to keep them safe, perhaps even if they are about to make a mistake.

But in truth when you're in charge of a machine that could easily kill someone the onus is on you to prevent that from happening regardless of who is right or wrong, or impolite or whatever.  It's only because driving a car is so commonplace that the responsibility doesn't terrify us. 

You wouldn't swing a chainsaw around in the supermarket with the attitude that someone who steps in front of you without looking probably deserves to have their head cut off, it's so weird that so many perfectly decent, normal, caring people unconsciously take precisely that attitude to their driving.

Exactly - a tw@t is a tw@t no matter what they are doing.

That’s genius. I’m saving that. Thanks. Where do I send the royalties to. 😂

Many of the people who drive like tw@ts are probably not tw@ts in most social settings. There is something about the cocooning effect of cars, the extended  territorial boundaries that come with moving at speed - and the priority that is plainly given to motor vehicles on our roads - that seems to bring out the tw@t in many. These things can change.

If it is a 2 lane road and you are on the right hand pavement then you can hop onto the road while seeing traffic coming at you and if a vehicle approaches you can hop back on. So everyone needs to be walking or running on their left of their chosen pavement.

I have noticed a similar trend in joggers up my way i was at a gate to leave bridal way jogger just carried on past me just inches away, next one gets tripped up.

Where I live (SW London) many of the roads are de facto narrowed by parked cars on either side. Widening pavements would probably mean that people had to consider owning less cars. Obviously good on environmental grounds but tough on people who have come to rely on their vehicle.   (I don't have a car so am pretty jealous of car owners who are able to travel distances while my wife and I are discouraged from doing so for separation reasons......hard to see people planning to increase their use of public transport in the near future now.)

You realise that pedestrians have every right to be in the road unless it's a motorway so drivers might just need to learn to anticipate them being there. 

Wouldn't it be great if they did away with roadside parking. If you want to have a car then factor in the cost of having somewhere off road to leave it. You would need a few short term spaces for deliveries and drop offs.

I guess as a society we grew up with it but logically the idea that you can just dump a car blocking part of a public road does seem strange. And that's before you get to the idiots thinking that the bit of road outside their house is "their" private space.

You could leave the same space for drivers. Thinking of London, so many roads would turn into lovely places to amble along, wide pavements and no death trap of having to scurry across the road between parked cars.

Sadly about as likely as unicorn eggs.

I mostly agree but it's a two way thing surely. You need to take responsibility for yourself as a runner as well. Regardless of who is right or wrong I'd rather not get splattered by not paying attention and end up potentially ruining two lives.

It's difficult when other people don't behave the way you think they should isn't it?

My classic version of that is the one from the highway code that "pedestrians have right of way over turning traffic", to which I add "but you don't want to be arguing those rights from a hospital bed".

Well yes of course.  But as the Spiderman's uncle said, with great power comes great responsibility.  A car is a powerful machine that can easily kill people, but we all tend to forget that because using it is so routine.  So mundane.

The OP said:

"They seem to
a) Assume that car drivers can read their minds every time
b) That the said drivers have enough time and space to respond in order to take avoiding action"

Well actually a lot of the time a car driver can "read their minds", or at least anticipate what is likely about to happen, and drivers have a clear moral and legal responsibility to anticipate what may be about to happen up ahead and make enough time and space to respond accordingly.

Nobody is perfect and we can all do better.  Driving is a funny one, 99% of people think they're above average and some of the ones who are convinced they're the most skillful are among the very worst.

And as traffic is beginning to build up and more of us are driving around again we probably all need to re-calibrate as drivers to take allowances for how our behaviour has changed as pedestrians and as cyclists.  Anyone setting out in the car now who hasn't really driven anywhere over the last couple of months probably needs to be aware that it's a slightly different world out there than it was in March.

Taking the attitude pedestrians "seem to think that they have the right" to step into the road is a kind of heuristic trap - thinking about that naturally tends to make you feel a bit indignant as a driver.  The logical next step is to say that they don't have the right, I have the right.  Which in turn tends to make you see them as "other", some faceless usurper of your right, forgetting that it's irrelevant whether someone is a driver, cyclist or pedestrian.  First and foremost they're a person, a human being who absolutely does have the right not to be injured or killed, even if they have just made a silly mistake.

Ok, laying it on with a trowel there.  But you really can't overemphasise this point, which we all tend to forget: driving a car is a big responsibility.  Huge.  Even though it is humdrum everyday stuff.

As the roads get busier with lockdown easing it will be interesting to see if speeds return to normal. 

Many (idiots) have decided that quieter roads are designed for them to drive faster, even though in the majority of cases they have nothing to rush to get to. 

Thanks for that.....I think, on balance, I'm still going to check before I dive into the road though....

Just like Superted said ;p

Quite. Ten foot square on the road is not a good position to argue from!

Since the 'lockdown' I've seen stupid, inconsiderate and entitled behaviour from some runners, walkers, dog walkers, cyclists and drivers. I think that says more about those individuals than it does about the particular mode of transport they were using at that moment.

In the particular case of running on the road - stepping suddenly into the road in front of traffic is obviously suicidal, regardless of right of way, but running in a road with little traffic to avoid restrictions seems quite reasonable to me. Both the runner and driver have a responsibility to look out for other road users, think what they are doing and behave appropriately to avoid a collision - usually that means slowing down a bit and not doing anything unpredictable. 

Which is frustrating for me, obviously, because I've been absolutely insisting that pedestrians should always just randomly lunge into the road without looking.  Ha ha, you frikkin' mook.