UKC

Diesels

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Need to replace my elderly Honda CRV soon. Is it illogical to rule out diesels? I know they are cleaner than in the past and seem to conform to some standards that mean you don't get hit with clean air zone charges. I'm not thinking of the advantages of extra torque or for high mileage use.....really just the environmental side. Are my prejudices justified?  

 Pedro50 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I've just abandoned diesel after 30 years. It seemed the correct thing to do. 

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 petemeads 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Still on diesel after 35 years, and this one might see me out - if not, next one will be full electric.

 pec 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Depends on how you use it surely?

If you mainly do short stop/start trips in towns or cities a petrol will probably be better but if you clock up your miles on long climbing trips out of highly populated areas then the air pollution becomes much less of a problem and the lower CO2 emissions is more important.

In the grand scheme of things global warming is a bigger threat than localised air quality.

2
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Apart from "how are you going to use it" considerations, another aspect is...

New car - diesel maybe not the best idea unless you only plan to keep it 2 or 3 years

2nd hand - diesel should be fine, biggest chunk of depreciation already happened, Euro 6 should allow you into the clean air zones without charges but I believe most of those also require AdBlue which shouldn't be a problem, just something to be aware of.

 SouthernSteve 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

We have a fairly new diesel van - no charge in Birmingham emissions zone (will keep this as long as I am allowed) and an old diesel car which will definitely be replaced by a petrol one. Until we can have a clear run to 'rescue' parents on a sole charge we'll not go electric (not to mention the expense). Hybrids seem to be a bit of a con in terms of emissions at the moment - the next scandal? or am I being too cynical. 

1
 Tom Valentine 05 Jul 2021
In reply to SouthernSteve:

I think a good hybrid option might appeal to a lot of people - a bit like Summo's suggestion on the other thread but a bit less Heath Robinson.

A mainly electric car with a mini diesel generator built in to top up battery levels on the move. and provide a few miles direct drive through the wheel motors in case of emergency. I'm sure there is one in  design stage somewhere or even on the road .

In reply to SouthernSteve:

Yes, I would be happy to replace my little i10 with electric in due course but for our bigger family car that goes longer distances to remoter areas, I don't think electric is a realistic option yet. Fairplay to the early adopters. Hybrid ....I'm not sure if they are significantly better and much more than a token gesture.

 Jamie Wakeham 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I'm not at all convinced by the self charging hybrid argument.

PHEVs can make a lot of sense, if most of your miles are spent within the battery range but you need to do occasional long trips. My Outlander PHEV ended up delivering about 100mpg overall, because I used it to do daily 20 mile commutes and the odd long run. But if you took the same car and did long motorway runs all the time you'd get about 35mpg.

If you're buying new, I'd go down a simple flow chart.  Do I regularly need a range > 250 miles? If not, then electric.  If so, do I cover more than half my mileage on long motorway trips? If so, diesel. Otherwise petrol.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

As suggested above, short journey's, go petrol, or hybrid (Toyota's have a good reputation). I've recently bought a 5 year old diesel with lowish miles and aim to keep it as long as possible, certainly until close to 2030, when the options become clearer. A friend works for a big car manufacturer and he believes that today's diesel engines are cleaner, overall, than petrol engines. He (and his company) also believe that all electric is just a stop gap (battery issues, charging issues, nearly half the households in the UK don't have off-road parking to enable overnight charging etc) and won't be sustainable, the way forward will be hydrogen combustion engines generating electricity for an electric motor. Plus, I can't afford an electric vehicle with the sort of range that I need for my longer journeys.

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 Kalna_kaza 05 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I bought a three year old diesel last year which I intend to run until it's dead, or near enough. Diesel engines are going to be around for a while yet but I can't see myself buying another after this one.

The two major things that made me avoid electric cars:

1) No estates, or at least no fully electric ones worth buying (MG have one but... it's an MG...)

2) Cost. Not prepared to lease a car for £100s per month, deposit and excess milage for 3 - 5 years just to give it back. I'll wait until decent second hand electrics are available with decent millage ranges.

In reply to Michael Hood:

AdBlue is just one way of meeting Euro 6, some cars do it via exhaust gas recirculation instead.

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

> The two major things that made me avoid electric cars:

> 1) No estates, or at least no fully electric ones worth buying

Oh dear. My car has to carry a harpsichord*, and at some point my Peugeot 3008 will cease to be runnable and I shall want to go electric.

*185cm long so not the biggest. But still...

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Hybrid (Toyota Auris) resulted in about a 25%+ reduction in our petrol consumption. However, we had to get rid of ours as catalytic converter theft from hybrids is rampant: we had ours chopped out of the underside of our car in plain view in an NHS car park. Took them about 3 minutes, and they jacked up the car without bothering to use the jacking point, doing even more damage. No way would we get another hybrid. We have gone electric.

Mild hybrid looks like greenwashing to me. 

 Tom Valentine 06 Jul 2021
In reply to ericinbristol:

I don't think all hybrid cats are as valuable to thieves: it's unfortunate that your car was one of the top four targets.

(The others are Prius, Lexus RX and pre '15 Honda Jazz.)

Post edited at 08:52
 fred99 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I don't think all hybrid cats are as valuable to thieves: it's unfortunate that your car was one of the top four targets.

> (The others are Prius, Lexus RX and pre '15 Honda Jazz.)

Presumably then there are many owners of these hybrids who are the root cause of the theft problem, as someone must be buying the stolen cats.

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In reply to fred99:

they are sold to unscrupulous scrap dealers as they contain valuable precious metals - e.g. platinum 

 fred99 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Al Cartwright:

> they are sold to unscrupulous scrap dealers as they contain valuable precious metals - e.g. platinum 

So that's why they're stolen - didn't know.

Does make me a trifle concerned for the future with regard to raw materials being mined for hybrid vehicles - there's surely only a finite amount that can be obtained, at least before the cost - both financial and ecological - becomes either prohibitive or obscene.

In reply to fred99:

The plans are for hybrids to be banned at more or less the same time as petrol only and diesel only new vehicles

Post edited at 13:27
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 Jamie Wakeham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to BusyLizzie:

A Peugeot 3008 isn't terribly big - it's only very slightly larger than an e-Niro.  And there is a full EV 3008 in the pipeline.

I'm slightly surprised that we don't have more in the way of 'proper' estate EVs yet - all the manufacturers seem to be very focussed on the small SUV/crossover sector.  There's the MG5, which is the only one I'd call a real estate car.  Things like the e-Niro, the e2008, and the Kona are smaller.  There's the Model X and the Merc EQC but they're very expensive.  The forthcoming Kia EV6 looks interesting.

I guess I expected an e-Octavia by now.  And I am really surprised that Mitsubishi have yet to capitalise on the popularity of the Outlander and make an all electric version.

 Maggot 06 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

I can imagine new EVs being nicked for their batteries, with the rest of the vehicle going to the crushers.

 Si dH 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I guess I expected an e-Octavia by now.  

The new VRS is a hybrid but I get the impression Skoda are changing their entire lineup for the new world of EVs rather than translating current models over.

I could probably do with changing my Octavia in a year or two and I'd like to go electric but there is nothing available at a remotely sensible price/spec to do everything it can do. I'm leaning towards replacing our smaller car with an EV instead, using that for everything day-to-day and just keeping the Octavia for long journeys and climbing trips when I want too many pads for the EV. The good thing is, if the EV feels more refined, spacious and a bit quicker than the old Astra it replaces then I won't miss using the Octavia so much.  Problem is, eventually that sort of use will probably start running up big maintenance bills on the Octavia.

Post edited at 13:50
 wbo2 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham: I guess I expected an e-Octavia by now -off to the shops, it's called an Enyaq, 

 Si dH 06 Jul 2021
In reply to wbo2:

>  I guess I expected an e-Octavia by now -off to the shops, it's called an Enyaq, 

Urgh, ugly fat look-at-me SUV with no pace - and really expensive

Post edited at 13:52
1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

MG 5 electric estate is getting good reviews, and is good value for money - I saw one at a rapid charger the other week and they look nice as well.

Volvo have an electric estate available - but will be Volvo priced.

there is now an E-Belingo for those who love the boxy shape, but the fact it loses nearly 40 miles of range compared to the hatchback 208 that it shares an underfloor with shows how in-efficient that shape is. 

I don't think anyone other than UK climbing readers are buying estate cars anymore

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In reply to ericinbristol:

I have recently been threatened on my drive by an iron bar wielding gang after the catalytic converter on my CRV. They ended up leaving empty handed but the prospect of having an even more desirable hybrid cat is not great.

In reply to BusyLizzie:

How do you find the 3008? Have you got the direct action grip? I regularly need to drive up a track through some fields....not hard core off road but something that is often tricky in the wet with just FWD.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Wow. That's horrible. 

 LastBoyScout 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Neston Climber:

> I don't think anyone other than UK climbing readers are buying estate cars anymore

We're going camping this weekend - I'm really going to miss my old estate, as the SUV we have now will be a struggle to pack and I can't bring myself to get a roof box.

 LastBoyScout 06 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I'm probably going to keep my diesel A3 until the wheels fall off. I'd get a pittance back for it even if I did sell/trade it in and keeping that will be a lot greener than a new car for the amount of mileage I do in it at the moment, which seems to be about 25 miles a fortnight!

Greenest option currently might be to buy a recent model used petrol/Euro 6 diesel car with the smallest engine you can get away with.

A family we know have a Leaf as the daily car and a petrol car for travelling long distance, as their relatives are in Pembroke.

That's the sort of strategy I'll probably go for when the A3 dies - I still don't like the range of electric cars and their suitability for going away in. Test drove a hybrid Auris before I bought the A3 and hated it!

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Apparently there are design problems converting existing vehicles to electric as, ideally , the batteries should be under the floor, as they are so heavy. So, as an example, cars like the Jaguar XE and XF won't be 'e' cars because they are too low already, so the manufacturers are having to design from scratch.

In reply to Neston Climber:

> I don't think anyone other than UK climbing readers are buying estate cars anymore

Canoeists and SUPers are. It's a ballache to put a boat / board on the roof of a SUV.

In reply to phizz4:

> Plus, I can't afford an electric vehicle with the sort of range that I need for my longer journeys.

Even if the total cost of ownership is lower? Is it simply that you can't afford an expensive new car?  Can your longer journeys be done with a charging stop?

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 Timmd 06 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I've been pondering recently that a second hand diesel is plausibly greener in the grander scheme of things than a new electric or other none particulate emitting vehicle, thanks to the resources tied up in manufacture, while to do with air quality from driving they're still worse.

The more considerate choice might depend on where you do most of your driving, whether it's within city confines?

Post edited at 17:50
In reply to Toerag:

Kite surfers too, multiple wings take up lots of room.

 yorkshireman 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> Even if the total cost of ownership is lower? Is it simply that you can't afford an expensive new car?  Can your longer journeys be done with a charging stop?

Even average EVs do 300 miles on a charge. About the same as my diesel Land Rover. I don't get the people that think 300 mile range is a reason not to get an EV, especially when it's about <1% of journeys for most people. 

My diesel car runs out of fuel if I don't stop to fill it up. Admitedly it's a bit quicker than a rapid charger for an EV, but rarely do I fancy jumping back in and up the motorway immediately after a 300 mile drive anyway.

I'm hoping to switch mine for an EV as soon as I can - I would never consider buying an ICE car again. The main obstacle (or reason for deliberation over which model) is getting something with 4/AWD as we live in the mountains and our drive is a steep, north facing slope and a few times having a 4x4 has really got us out of trouble. 

5
 Jamie Wakeham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Timmd:

It's a complicated question, and depends on how much mileage you cover, and the electricity supply you would charge up from... but in general the CO2 cost of a car is dwarfed by the CO2 released by its fuel.  Unless you will be doing really small mileages, then switching to electric will always result in lower lifetime emissions.

 Timmd 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It's a complicated question, and depends on how much mileage you cover, and the electricity supply you would charge up from... but in general the CO2 cost of a car is dwarfed by the CO2 released by its fuel.  Unless you will be doing really small mileages, then switching to electric will always result in lower lifetime emissions.

Right, I see. That's interesting to know.

Where did you find the info on that? It'd be handy to share on facebook and other places.

Post edited at 17:58
In reply to Timmd:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/05/20/are-electric-vehicles-really-better-for-the-environment/?sh=75b7f2d776d2

Here is just one example I have seen recently, and the good thing from a UK point of view is that the footprint from electricity generation (already low) is going to fall even more as additional wind farms are added to the grid.

There is not the capacity atm for everyone to switch at the moment, but if your interested in helping speed up the transition then you are better off buying a new or used EV over an equivalent ICE to help the market forces get to work. This is already happening in UK as in June EV sales overtook deseles for the first time to make up 10% of new sales. If you can afford a new EV, and your old one will go onto second hand market rather than scrap then I can't see it being greener to hold onto the old car, as it can go to someone who wants it, or is getting rid of an even older one. 

1
 Jamie Wakeham 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Timmd:

Another: https://www.transportenvironment.org/what-we-do/electric-cars/how-clean-are-electric-cars

The single biggest factor is the carbon intensity of the electricity you charge with.  But even in Poland (basically 100% coal fired) the EV wins.  In places like Sweden or Norway, where they are near 100% renewable, the 'fuel' cost is essentially zero. 

Of course, EVs are typically charged overnight, and in the UK that means significantly more nuclear and wind and less gas in the mix, so the reality is even better than these graphs suggest (as they are based off the overall carbon intensity).

There is a lot of misinformation out there, generally from ICE manufacturers.  Aston Martin recently got into a little trouble...

 Tom Valentine 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

You don't have to be an outdoors sportsman to realise that an estate car is a classier proposition than an SUV. And just as much use.

1
 Tom Valentine 06 Jul 2021
In reply to yorkshireman:

I'm sure you've seen the video showing just how nippy Taycans are on uphill starts.......

 Si dH 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> Even if the total cost of ownership is lower? Is it simply that you can't afford an expensive new car?  Can your longer journeys be done with a charging stop?

I think the biggest problem with EV cost at the moment is not the fact that you pay more for an equivalent car (though you mostly do) but that there is nothing very good second hand yet.

I have always bought my cars 2-3 years old and never had to spend more than £12-13k to get something good that does everything I want. I've never considered buying new, nor taking out finance. With an EV at the moment it isn't possible to get a half decent car in that way. You have to buy new, or almost new at a similar cost, and are likely to shoulder a lot of depreciation even if you can afford to pay upfront. This easily outweighs a reduction in running costs for most people. I'm sure this will change in 2-3 years and by then we'll be starting to get more real world opex on battery longevity too. I could imagine an ID3 or equivalent being a very attractive second hand buy as a small family car.

Post edited at 19:07
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I would question the statement that a range of 300 miles is normal. From a recent review that I read the top of the range i Pace has a theoretical range of around 280 miles but the reviewer got around 200 miles most of the time. Interestingly, the issues were not with the car but with the availability of charging points, as our network is fragmented, has a variety of chargers with a variety of outputs and many non-working points. The ones in the Ikea car park in Exeter are apparently in a part of the car park that isn't always unlocked for access. The government really needs to get to grips with this issue if they really want electric vehicles to become the norm.

In reply to phizz4:

On a long trip I easily get 600 miles out of a tankfull of diesel, which I find rather useful.

With < 300 miles and the current charging point availability (sorry, couldn't resist the pun), I'd be concerned about recharging a lot of the time.

Until the battery range generally goes up to 400+ miles, and the charging network improves considerably, EVs are not going to be acceptable to many.

Edit: although I'm sure that battery technology will improve to the point where 600+ miles is possible, I doubt many manufacturers will offer it, choosing to save weight and price instead.

Post edited at 19:26
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In reply to Si dH:

2nd hand EVs is an issue. My son, who really would like to have bought electric, has ended up buying diesel (estate) with the expectation (or at least hope) that in 3 years time there will be a reasonable 2nd hand EV market.

In reply to Michael Hood:

 ..... But presumably the demand for his old diesel will be even smaller.

All a lot easier when it was a Ford in black or nothing. Spoilt for choice or just bewildered now.

 Maggot 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Si dH:

> I have always bought my cars 2-3 years old and never had to spend more than £12-13k to get something good that does everything I want

Interesting to observe other people's values on motors. I like a decent motor myself, but the most I've ever spent is 3k, then only because I had to.

Nice car is was too, diesel Focus.

Over 10k I'd be looking at a classic car, otherwise they're just means of getting A to B.

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 wbo2 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Timmd: it isn't.   How long it takes to vecome cleaner depends on your electricity mix

 Si dH 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Maggot:

> Interesting to observe other people's values on motors. I like a decent motor myself, but the most I've ever spent is 3k, then only because I had to.

> Nice car is was too, diesel Focus.

> Over 10k I'd be looking at a classic car, otherwise they're just means of getting A to B.

Yer, I mean everyone is different but your example just reinforces the point. It's going to be even longer before a half-decent EV at £30-35k new has dropped to £3k.

 Forest Dump 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

Anecdotally, smaller fleets and SME senior management and reps are now starting to go over to full electric (owners/directors have been on top end Tesla's for a while)

3-5 years for a nascent 2nd hand market sounds about right 

I've got 70 oddK on my boy racer hot hatch and was doing 500-1000 business miles a month, and planned to replace last year. Then COVID happened and probably do 100 miles a month now. Reckon i'll now run this into the ground and see what the score is then..

 Timmd 06 Jul 2021
In reply to wbo2:

> it isn't.   How long it takes to vecome cleaner depends on your electricity mix

I don't understand this post, can you expand further?

 wbo2 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Timmd:blast, thought I'd typed a long reply.... .

You use,a large amount energy etc. Creating new vehicle. Your old diesel keeps emitting at old rate.   New vehicles emits near zero, so how long till 'savings' overtake energy of manufacture? 

  That depends on how electricity is generated.   In Norway leccy is circa 99% renewable, so pretty soon.  If you use global mix of coal, gas, nuke, wind etc., longer.

This is a variation on the old calculations used to demonstrate that even taking into account manufacture,  getting smoky old bangers off the road is a good thing 

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

My only experience of muddy tracks was the long drive to a remote holiday cottage. Doris the Diesel was ok, but it was fairly level and I would have been a bit nervous of a serious muddy hill.

In reply to wbo2:

See the artical in my post above for some graphs from different nations, there is plenty of data out there. 

In reply to phizz4:

This has certainly been a limitaion until recently, however the recent investment in the old Electric Highway network by Gridsearve - backed by some real money - is a bit of a game changer. Upgrade of all existing moterway, truck road service units by end of July, plans to add 100s more before end of year. All brand new, contactless payment units. No apps required. 

 BennoC 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> On a long trip I easily get 600 miles out of a tankfull of diesel, which I find rather useful.

> With < 300 miles and the current charging point availability (sorry, couldn't resist the pun), I'd be concerned about recharging a lot of the time.

But that's nearly 10 hours of continuous motorway driving. You'd be mad to do that without stopping. Chargers are everywhere, just look at zap map. I get a bit fed up of people making excuses as to why they should continue to burn fossile fuels. 

If we are to stop the climate crisis getting worse we are going to have to change. Yes, every now and then it might be a bit inconvenient,  but the alternative is much more inconvenient. 

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 Timmd 06 Jul 2021
In reply to BennoC:

> But that's nearly 10 hours of continuous motorway driving. You'd be mad to do that without stopping. Chargers are everywhere, just look at zap map. I get a bit fed up of people making excuses as to why they should continue to burn fossile fuels. 

> If we are to stop the climate crisis getting worse we are going to have to change. Yes, every now and then it might be a bit inconvenient,  but the alternative is much more inconvenient. 

I'm bothered enough by climate change to have found flying on holiday immoral on a personal level  that I never have done (what others decide is up to them), but I wouldn't go about being critical of people buying a diesel car because the range is better, or the infrastructure isn't as good for electric vehicles, it's understandable that people want an easier time of driving given how hectic life can be. 

Post edited at 23:43
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 LastBoyScout 06 Jul 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> Canoeists and SUPers are. It's a ballache to put a boat / board on the roof of a SUV.

Not really, I've never had a problem getting bikes, boats or surf boards on the top of our Tiguan, and I'm not that tall. I might struggle to get a bike right in the middle, though.

Just make sure any belt buckles are covered, so you don't catch the paintwork.

1
 LastBoyScout 07 Jul 2021
In reply to BennoC:

> But that's nearly 10 hours of continuous motorway driving. You'd be mad to do that without stopping.

On your own, yes, but plenty of people on here will have done the car-share long distance driving where you stop every couple of hours for a stretch, toilet break, swap drivers and carry on - no room in that for 40-odd mins of waiting for the car to charge when you can do it in 10 mins from a pump.

On the other hand, these days, that 40 mins is about right to stop and feed the kids.

In reply to BennoC:

Didn't really mean 600 miles in one go, but say you do a weekend to somewhere 250 miles away. Allows you to do the whole weekend without worrying about fuel, especially if your destination area is somewhere remote.

Not saying it's not doable with an EV, just that it would require more thought, especially beforehand. And just in case there's a problem with remote charging points you probably need a contingency plan.

The increase in the number of charging points, better battery and charging technology allowing faster charging, means we'll get there. I just think for the majority, we're not there yet.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Aside from the fact that I can't afford a newish EV, I wonder how they would cope with the following scenario. Leave West Midlands on a Friday evening, drive to Wasdale (not accessible by public transport, no charging points), backpacking weekend, return on Sunday evening in time for work on Monday morning? My feeling is, as stated above, that the manufacturers will be rolling out cheapish, low range EV's, say 100 miles, for those with the average commute of 10 miles or so, while we retain IC engines for our longer trips. Of course, there is the scope, at some point in the future, for the App that summons a self driving EV to your front door for the outward journey and, as you walk down from Great Gable you summon another to Wasdale Head for the return journey.

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 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to phizz4:

There's a charger at the car park in Wasdale Head for exactly the scenario you describe!  It's a little expensive, and admittedly it's a fairly slow one, but still more than enough to fully recharge between Friday night and Saturday afternoon, never mind Sunday.

Or bribe the pub landlord to run a cable out to you.  I have never (in more than five years) had a pub / campsite / Airbnb refuse to charge me; I usually offer a fiver. 

I readily admit that for some users EVs aren't there yet - if you genuinely need to drive 600 miles or more with no significant stops then you will struggle - but for most drivers they are already more than enough.  In your scenario, even if Wasdale has been hit by a power cut and I cannot charge at all over the weekend, my car would do there and back to Oxford with a total of about 70 minutes fast charging on the motorway networks.  I can live with the idea of stopping twice for 20 minutes each time on a five hour drive.

 BennoC 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> I'm bothered enough by climate change to have found flying on holiday immoral on a personal level  that I never have done (what others decide is up to them), but I wouldn't go about being critical of people buying a diesel car because the range is better, or the infrastructure isn't as good for electric vehicles, it's understandable that people want an easier time of driving given how hectic life can be. 

That's great, and I know there are many drawbacks with electric vehicles. They are expensive up front (and will be until the 2nd hand pipeline fills up) and most of them can't tow, but I think the range argument is over done, and made only by those with no experience of EV ownership. I've found charging to be much less hassle than having to visit a petrol station, and I've done many 350 - 400 mile round trips.  

If someone is looking to buy a new car, or lease one, then going electric makes most sense in 99% of cases. 

 Fredt 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

> The two major things that made me avoid electric cars:

> 1) No estates, or at least no fully electric ones worth buying (MG have one but... it's an MG...)

> 2) Cost. Not prepared to lease a car for £100s per month, deposit and excess milage for 3 - 5 years just to give it back. I'll wait until decent second hand electrics are available with decent millage ranges.

I leased my car nearly 4 years ago, I wasn't keen, but other unusual factors forced the decision. The first couple of years I had to watch the mileage, but it never limited me and I managed a couple of European tours, (Chamonix, Dolomites, Vienna, Tyrol).

Then Covid meant very low mileage for the last 18 months. I have to give it back or pay off the balance in a couple of months, and I looked for cars with same year, mileage and spec as mine, and they are around £18-20k, whereas I can pay mine off for £10k, with low mileage for the year, and in great condition. It's a diesel, I average 55mpg, - if I'm careful on long trips I can get 65mpg, and I am confident it will last me another 10 years.

 colinakmc 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Fredt:

Sounds like you’ve won a watch. I’ve got a 3 series diesel which I’ve now had for 7 years past and 100000 miles; all it’s cost apart from tyres and pads was a new set of springs and shocks at the front when it broke a spring. (That bill wasn’t pretty mind you.) Occasionally I look to see what I could be driving instead and nothing comes close. So providence willing, it’ll be with me for a good few more years.

 girlymonkey 07 Jul 2021
In reply to phizz4:

I guess it depends how much you value your time. My electric van costs about one fifth of the price of my old diesel in fuel and has no VED (vs around £270 I think for the diesel). I have very minimal maintenance costs too. At the moment, the fuel actually costs me even less than that due to most of our local chargers still being free, but that obviously won't be the case forever.

For the "inconvenience" of stopping every so often for a 20 min charge (I'm a real fidget and lose concentration while driving fairly quickly, so this is really no inconvenience at all), I feel the financial gain is massive. Most of our daily journeys don't require us to charge en route. We have a TINY battery in our van, most people buying EVs will have much more range than us, so even less inconvenient.

When we got this van, we calculated that if our old van lasted another 5 years, then we would be making a profit by the end of 5 years, having paid a lot more for the vehicle in the first place. We managed to sell the old van for what we paid for it. I suspect it wouldn't have survived another 5 years, and likely we would have had another couple of expensive MOTs and then had to fork out for another van anyway.

All in all, I don't think the odd 20 min stop here and there is worth the financial cost of running an ICE for me!

1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Ah, but you got to the only charger before me, so that's my bad luck. Example aside, the charging infrastructure will get better, no doubt, it's just not ready yet for the increasing numbers of EVs. And there's still the problem for all of those people who don't have off-road parking. Diesel won't disappear from the garage forecourts in 2030, the commercial sector just won't be ready for that to happen, and I reckon there will be a demand for low mileage ICE vehicles near to 2030 as there will be many diehards who won't want to change.

1
 fred99 07 Jul 2021
In reply to BennoC:

> But that's nearly 10 hours of continuous motorway driving. You'd be mad to do that without stopping. Chargers are everywhere, just look at zap map....

The question is, how many cars will stop at any one (for example) motorway service station on a bank holiday to recharge their EV's at the same time. It's no good if there are only a couple of charging points, for that matter it's no good if there are a dozen or two. What will be needed is more like 40 or 50 (at least ??) per service station unless people are going to be expected to spend the night there. Like it or not, recharging an EV takes an awful lot longer than refuelling a petrol/diesel.

For that matter, the same goes for any venue that advertises itself for EV recharging - the number of charging points has got to increase dramatically.

1
 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99 and phizz4:

It constantly amuses me that the ICE drivers continue to insist that the infrastructure isn't there yet... whilst at the same time the EV drivers happily just get on with it!

In five years of owning an EV I have arrived at a motorway service station and not been able to immediately plug in a grand total of (I think) four times.  In three out of four occasions it was because the charger was offline - the Ecotricity chargers were a bit underfunded and neglected, but since the recent takeover they are all being upgraded this summer.  The new ones are fast (50kW or more) and seem to be very reliable.  Only once have I found both stations occupied.  So no, I don't think we need ranks of 50 chargers!  Sure, we'll need some more, as more people buy EVs, but they are coming online all the time.  

So 50% of people don't have driveways?  That means 50% of people do, so lets get them into EVs and then see what the charging solutions for the other 50% are.  We're not even restricting the sale of ICEs for another nine years yet...

1
 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

If an EV doesn't work for you I would be (am) sorely tempted to go diesel. There are some efficient diesels available at pretty modest prices with quite extraordinary performance. A 5yo 330d is as fast as a 20yo M3, comparable price for like condition, cheaper to tax and insure, easier to maintain, comes with 4wd and an estate version if your dog likes g-forces and all the modern toys. Then with your sensible hat back on it goes twice as far on a fill, it's just bonkers how much has changed and that's not even the top of the line diesel!

If you want low emissions buy a small, light car with good aero, hardly matters what it burns, just buy small.

jk

Post edited at 13:26
1
 Siward 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

A national grid fellow on the Today programme recently said that the country needed to be installing 700 charging points per day on a continuous basis to anticipate expected demand. That will have to include, surely, charging points in kerbs in areas where that is where people park their cars.

Funny how the race to save the planet involves the creation of countless new factories, mines, infrastructure and growth. Carbon neutral do we think? 

1
 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Siward:

> Funny how the race to save the planet involves the creation of countless new factories, mines, infrastructure and growth. Carbon neutral do we think? 

As opposed to what, turning the lights off and donning the hair shirt? Our climate disaster has a technological solution or a Malthusian one, I know which I'd rather shoot for.

jk

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Siward:

> A national grid fellow on the Today programme recently said that the country needed to be installing 700 charging points per day on a continuous basis to anticipate expected demand.

What time?  I'd like to listen to it... at the moment I am struggling to see why we need a quarter of a million new chargers, every year.

>That will have to include, surely, charging points in kerbs in areas where that is where people park their cars.

Yep.  Running off lampposts is easy.  Of course, Fred99 will insist that every single lamppost in the country is on the wrong side of the pavement and therefore creates a trip hazard.

> Funny how the race to save the planet involves the creation of countless new factories, mines, infrastructure and growth. Carbon neutral do we think? 

Well, yes.  That's the point.  Almost any solution will be better than continuing to burn petrol and diesel in ICEs.

2
 girlymonkey 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> So 50% of people don't have driveways?  That means 50% of people do, so lets get them into EVs and then see what the charging solutions for the other 50% are.  We're not even restricting the sale of ICEs for another nine years yet...

And the 50% of people who don't have driveways don't all have cars. Currently, all ICE vehicles fuel up at a petrol station 100% of the time. The EV drivers who have driveways fill up at home about 90% of the time. We don't need like for like numbers of EV chargers as we do petrol pumps.

 fred99 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It constantly amuses me that the ICE drivers continue to insist that the infrastructure isn't there yet... whilst at the same time the EV drivers happily just get on with it!

> In five years of owning an EV I have arrived at a motorway service station and not been able to immediately plug in a grand total of (I think) four times.  In three out of four occasions it was because the charger was offline - the Ecotricity chargers were a bit underfunded and neglected, but since the recent takeover they are all being upgraded this summer.  The new ones are fast (50kW or more) and seem to be very reliable.  Only once have I found both stations occupied.  So no, I don't think we need ranks of 50 chargers!  Sure, we'll need some more, as more people buy EVs, but they are coming online all the time.  

> So 50% of people don't have driveways?  That means 50% of people do, so lets get them into EVs and then see what the charging solutions for the other 50% are.  We're not even restricting the sale of ICEs for another nine years yet...

Across the last 5 years the number of people with EV has been an extremely small number, so the number of those recharging has been equally low - and I wonder how many have the EV for the daily commute, and use their petrol/diesel for the weekend ? Hence saying you've had no problems so far has no bearing on the future. Double the number of EV's, and you'll need to double the number of EV charging points, etcetera.

As for the idea of waiting until EV's are the only available, and ONLY THEN see what the charging solutions are is both ridiculous and selfish. If 50% of the population do not have the facilities for an EV, then something needs to be planned well in advance, as the 50% you're talking about won't stand for the idea that they have to rely on public transport - a sick joke outside the main conurbations - or else only go as far as they can ride a bicycle. Like it or not the private car liberated a vast number of the less well off from the limitations of work and the pub - and nowhere else. Note: - this liberation did commence with the train, but, outside of London etc., this form of transport is extremely limited.

3
 fred99 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Yep.  Running off lampposts is easy.  Of course, Fred99 will insist that every single lamppost in the country is on the wrong side of the pavement and therefore creates a trip hazard.

Well aren't they ??

Try putting the idea of cables across pavements to someone who is blind, or in a wheelchair. It's alright for you, who presumably is able-bodied, have 20:20 vision, and presumably live in a street where everyone has both a garage and a driveway leading up to it.

You keep coming across as extremely selfish - well, you might be "alright Jack", but I prefer to look out for my fellow man (and woman !), so prefer the future to be good for all, not just the few, and particularly not just the well off few.

3
 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Well aren't they ??

No.  I provided streetview images last time you tried to claim this.

> You keep coming across as extremely selfish

I'd say the selfish ones are the boomers who are desperate to cling onto their ICEs and continue screwing the climate...

Canada hit 49.6C last week.  Canada.

Post edited at 14:46
5
 BennoC 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It constantly amuses me that the ICE drivers continue to insist that the infrastructure isn't there yet... whilst at the same time the EV drivers happily just get on with it!

The ICE drivers are missing out. The linear, uninterrupted power is great. As is turning off VESS (the warning noise) when coming down from the mountain in the evening with the windows open and enjoying the quiet. 

1
 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Hence saying you've had no problems so far has no bearing on the future. Double the number of EV's, and you'll need to double the number of EV charging points, etcetera.

Modern EVs have ranges in line with ICE vehicles and fast-charge times are a non issue. Your arguments here are as ever out of step with reality.

If we can build EVs we can build charge points. The idea the two parts of the system must somehow slip out of sync is nonsense, if they do it creates a solvable problem for competent, well resourced companies (auto producers) looking to sell their products and an opportunity for others. It's an open market, the supply demand mismatch won't last long if it ever arises.

> As for the idea of waiting until EV's are the only available, and ONLY THEN see what the charging solutions are is both ridiculous and selfish.

What?

> If 50% of the population do not have the facilities for an EV, then something needs to be planned well in advance, as the 50% you're talking about won't stand for the idea that they have to rely on public transport - a sick joke outside the main conurbations - or else only go as far as they can ride a bicycle.

There's plenty of publicly accessible rural infrastructure, my folks just ran their small capacity Gen1 leaf right across country with a bit of easy planning and zero hassle, no big towns, motorways or service stations needed, they just charged it over lunch and carried on. This facility exists already and it's getting better by the day as demand grows.

> Like it or not the private car liberated a vast number of the less well off from the limitations of work and the pub - and nowhere else. Note: - this liberation did commence with the train, but, outside of London etc., this form of transport is extremely limited.

Surely you mean the bicycle then the motorcycle did? EVs don't reverse that 'liberation'.

jk

2
 BennoC 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

>  the 50% you're talking about won't stand for the idea that they have to rely on public transport - a sick joke outside the main conurbations - or else only go as far as they can ride a bicycle. Like it or not the private car liberated a vast number of the less well off from the limitations of work and the pub - and nowhere else. Note: - this liberation did commence with the train, but, outside of London etc., this form of transport is extremely limited.

They could just charge when they do their supermarket shop..... 

Or at work.....

Or at a local rapid charger.....

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Well aren't they ?? Try putting the idea of cables across pavements to someone who is blind, or in a wheelchair. It's alright for you, who presumably is able-bodied, have 20:20 vision, and presumably live in a street where everyone has both a garage and a driveway leading up to it.

The Victorians solved the problem of getting services (rain gutters) across pavements safely. I'm sure we'll cope where it's necessary.

jk

 Jim Fraser 07 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Poor old Otto. The engine cycle that bears his name is getting a bad press. And it's not his fault. The recent changes happening to the diesel engine are mainly about 'garbage in, garbage out'. Thus all the bio fuels and the marine industry making the move to gas oil instead of the dirt cheap heavy fuel oil. 

Today the diesel, tomorrow who knows.

"We don't know what we don't know yet."

 wercat 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> I don't think all hybrid cats are as valuable to thieves:

I'm certainly not valuable to thieves

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I actually don't think EVs are the best future solution. I'd like to see hydrogen powered vehicles with the production of hydrogen powered by green energy. Overall I think this would be environmentally superior to needing the materials to produce loads of batteries.

Of course future battery technology may improve to the extent that this is no longer the case and the electricity to recharge can of course be green as well (although we still haven't properly cracked how to store excess green energy from wind, solar, etc).

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> It's an open market, the supply demand mismatch won't last long if it ever arises.

Indeed, even if this does lead to the current proliferation of charging networks.  This will sort it self out, hopefully sooner rather than later, and the new trend towards tap-and-go with your credit card is a massive improvement.

I suspect that the 3kW 'charge station' in Wasdale is actually an enterprising farmer with an extension cable and a stopclock!

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It constantly amuses me that the ICE drivers continue to insist that the infrastructure isn't there yet... whilst at the same time the EV drivers happily just get on with it!

Just like campervan owners did until #vanlife came into being and everyone bought one?

1
 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

I've nothing against hydrogen, but I think there are significant issues to be sorted out before a mass rollout, so I'm backing the green tech that's currently available.  Like I said, literally anything is an improvement on setting fire to petrol.

Who knows, maybe the fusion guys will finally come through..?

1
In reply to jkarran:

> The Victorians solved the problem of getting services (rain gutters) across pavements safely. I'm sure we'll cope where it's necessary.

> jk

North West Electricity charge £9k to run a single supply under a road. It's eminently doable, but costly when you don't have starving urchins doing the work.

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I actually don't think EVs are the best future solution. I'd like to see hydrogen powered vehicles with the production of hydrogen powered by green energy. Overall I think this would be environmentally superior to needing the materials to produce loads of batteries.

Why? We need storage on a renewable grid, to my mind it might as well do dual function, obviously green hydrogen theoretically can do that but practically doesn't, battery electric storage already works at significant scale and decent efficiency.

Worth noting hydrogen powered vehicles will be 'E' vehicles anyway, we're not going to burn it in rotating machines even if it becomes a prominent means of storing and moving energy.

I suspect in the medium term hydrogen fuel cells will carve out a niche replacing diesel in heavy haulage but won't win the race for dominance in personal transport.

> Of course future battery technology may improve to the extent that this is no longer the case and the electricity to recharge can of course be green as well (although we still haven't properly cracked how to store excess green energy from wind, solar, etc).

Yes we have: EVs!

jk

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Ridge:

But the point isn't running cables under a road, it's getting them safely, and temporarily across a pavement. A simple gutter can do that and installing them is trivial: cut a slot, grout it in. For many terraces they already exist. We shrug off much more invasive work for broadband.

Or there's the commercial/industrial solution to temporary cable trip hazards: a yellow rubber speed bump over the cable.

jk

1
In reply to jkarran:

Ah, got you. The rubber cover is probably the way to go.

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Ridge:

> Ah, got you. The rubber cover is probably the way to go.

Agreed but Fred never does, hence the more comprehensive suggestion.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

> Or there's the commercial/industrial solution to temporary cable trip hazards: a yellow rubber speed bump over the cable.

I think that this might technically be an illegal obstruction of the pavement; would certainly still be a hazard for the blind.

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

No more than every other raised paving stone edge and kerb. Laws can change to suit changing times.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I guess unsighted folk would have to learn to expect them and maybe change their stick technique to detect them.

They certainly don't have the same profile as kerbs, probably similar "severity" to uneven paving slabs. Speculating here, we would really need an unsighted person to tell us how much of a hazard they'd be.

Law change, if required would be the obvious way to go, but I doubt they'd be much enforcement (if it is an illegal obstruction) at the moment anyway.

Bigger problems would be 1. rubber thingy getting nicked and 2. how do you ensure you can park outside your dwelling rather than 5 spaces down the road.

I'd say 2 is the bigger problem because it would require social change and we're not very good at that.

 Maggot 07 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

Wheelchair users and pram pushers are going to love trundling over dozens of them on the pavement!

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I believe that the current (excuse the pun) electricity supply to lampposts is not suitable for EV chargers, so all of the cables would need to be upgraded. It will happen, I've no doubt, but I still think it is a temporary solution and not the way to a sustainable future. 

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

Here's one solution: Ubitricity are sticking these in all over Oxford, in streets where there's no off-road parking  https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.75611,-1.2148171,3a,15.9y,260.57h,85.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sm7nLxm4671pZl6mnUKJyIw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dm7nLxm4671pZl6mnUKJyIw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D24.62568%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Admittedly this one hasn't made a very good job of getting the cable tidied up, but it shows that there is no more obstruction than would have been caused by the lamp post itself. 

Of course, Fred99 still insists that there are no lamp posts on the road side of the pavement, so this can't possibly exist

 wercat 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Maggot:

I hope they will be above street-flood level!  I remember something with James Bond, an enemy operative in a bath and electricity - didn't end well.

 Jamie Wakeham 07 Jul 2021
In reply to phizz4:

Street lamps are generally connected with 4mm cables which can carry 32A.  10A for a slow EV charger is easy, especially as the actual lighting is now shifting to low current LED.

1
 colinakmc 07 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Someone else has expressed scepticism on here about ev’s being the future. All those rare metals, all the energy, they have to come from somewhere and over a life cycle I can’t see it making a profound difference. Then add in the cognitive dissonance - flying cars by 2030 anyone - and it’s clear that everyone is kidding themselves. We need to travel MUCH less and do so by the efforts of our own muscles to make a proper difference.

1
 Maggot 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Street lamps are generally connected with 4mm cables which can carry 32A.  10A for a slow EV charger is easy, especially as the actual lighting is now shifting to low current LED.

We've been here before ...

A street opposite me is a tenth of a mile long, has space for about 60 cars, and has 3 (three) Street lamps.

Explain to me how that isn't a recipe for electric cable spaghetti chaos.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

There isn't remotely enough generation on the network to cope with electrifying the private car fleet. Renewables don't offer the solution until power storage can be solved and hydrogen is ten years away. 

The best bet surely is to choose a small, efficient petrol car in the short term. Longer term, EV can become possible assuming the govt invests in nuclear. The ideal mix, in my view is 50% nuclear, 50% renewables, and around 50% gas, for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind isn't blowing. 

Transmission will need to be enhanced too. 

Post edited at 21:00
2
 girlymonkey 07 Jul 2021
In reply to blurty:

EVs are storage!

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Maggot:

> Wheelchair users and pram pushers are going to love trundling over dozens of them on the pavement!

Speaking as one, I couldn't give a toss. Every outing already includes negotiating dozens of little steps and edges.

My father can't see down (or much in general) but doesn't use a cane. He trips on anything and everything but it's his choice not to use a cane.

Jk

1
 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to blurty:

> There isn't remotely enough generation on the network to cope with electrifying the private car fleet. Renewables don't offer the solution until power storage can be solved and hydrogen is ten years away. 

Yes there is capacity. EVs have large storage capacity, low duty cycle and averaged across the fleet have a fixed (cycling weekly) output. Even without returning energy to the grid they can act en masse as storage by being smart consumers. 

> The best bet surely is to choose a small, efficient petrol car in the short term. Longer term, EV can become possible assuming the govt invests in nuclear.

They work now for many people and they can make the grid better not worse. 

> The ideal mix, in my view is 50% nuclear, 50% renewables, and around 50% gas, for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind isn't blowing.

No need for storage then. You can squeeze gas down well below the renewable fraction with storage. 

> Transmission will need to be enhanced too. 

Locally in places, in general it's fine if we consume sensibly.

Jk

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to Maggot:

> A street opposite me is a tenth of a mile long, has space for about 60 cars, and has 3 (three) Street lamps.

> Explain to me how that isn't a recipe for electric cable spaghetti chaos.

Because each post can do 2 cars at once, 13A each (plus ~1A LED head) without reworking the wiring. Most of the cars don't need to charge most of the time. We get used to moving them when they're done.

EV Spaghetti is good though in the long run, the more cars grid connected for more of the time the deeper our storage pool.

Jk

 jkarran 07 Jul 2021
In reply to wercat:

> I hope they will be above street-flood level!  I remember something with James Bond, an enemy operative in a bath and electricity - didn't end well.

Or insulated with leakage protection.

Streetlamps round here stay on even when they're half full of river and buzzing. Now that is sketchy IMO but the pole is earthed and they don't kill anyone.

Jk

 wercat 08 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

Street lamps yes but how waterproof would the charger equipment/ sockets be?  I suppose experience will refine the initial product

Post edited at 07:52
 Siward 08 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

Street lamps, rubber covers, spaghetti are no-nos IMHO. They represent a real trip hazard, liability would be unclear and contentious too. We need either charging points embedded in the kerb (water would be an issue) or charging posts at much more frequent intervals than lamposts which can be a long way apart.

As above though the contention that 'anything is better than burning petrol'- even developing a new multi billion pound industry on the old 'growth is good' model- leaves me unconvinced. Are we genuinely going to reverse (not reduce) carbon emissions over the next 50 years- not a hope at the moment.

 BennoC 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Siward:

But most people will only need to charge once a week (I have a 64 mile round trip commute and charge every three days). So people can head along to a local charging station and leave their car for a couple of hours while they shop, or go to the gym, or have a coffee. We don't need everyone to be able to charge outside their home.   

 fred99 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Of course, Fred99 still insists that there are no lamp posts on the road side of the pavement, so this can't possibly exist

Well Fred99 knows damn well that there aren't any lamp posts on the road side of residential streets in his city, nor in the town that he works in, nor ......

 fred99 08 Jul 2021
In reply to BennoC:

> But most people will only need to charge once a week (I have a 64 mile round trip commute and charge every three days). So people can head along to a local charging station and leave their car for a couple of hours while they shop, or go to the gym, or have a coffee. We don't need everyone to be able to charge outside their home.   

Why DRIVE to the gym ? Why not walk/cycle there instead, it'll be your warm up. I ALWAYS ran to and from the gym for stretching and weight training when I was younger and used them. For that matter I also walked/cycled to the climbing wall.

I suggest that driving to take exercise is one of the worst reasons for using a motor vehicle there is. Just use your legs, and save the planet.

2
 BennoC 08 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

I agree that one shouldn't drive to exercise if possible. But is driving to a petrol station to fill up the car also a bad reason to use ones car?

And driving somewhere in an electric car isn't as bad environmentally as doing to in an ICE car (although still not as good as walking/cycling).

Edit: Also, there are far far worse reasons for using ones car than to get somewhere to exercise. I fact, I'd argue it's one of the best reasons to use a car. 

Post edited at 11:19
1
 Kalna_kaza 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Fredt:

> Then Covid meant very low mileage for the last 18 months. I have to give it back or pay off the balance in a couple of months, and I looked for cars with same year, mileage and spec as mine, and they are around £18-20k, whereas I can pay mine off for £10k, with low mileage for the year, and in great condition. It's a diesel, I average 55mpg, - if I'm careful on long trips I can get 65mpg, and I am confident it will last me another 10 years.

I would say that's a lucky break in terms of circumstance rather than a good reason to lease than buy outright. I suspect that you are in the minority who go on to buy at the end of the contract, most people I know seem to want a new car every 3-4 years now. Granted without lots of people leasing there wouldn't be a good 2nd hand car market

There's no cheap way to run a car. EVs are very cheap to run now but at some point there will have to be additional costs to charging or pay per km to makeup the shortfall from reduced fuel duty and the additional VAT.

In reply to fred99:

> Why DRIVE to the gym ? Why not walk/cycle there instead, it'll be your warm up. I ALWAYS ran to and from the gym for stretching and weight training when I was younger and used them. For that matter I also walked/cycled to the climbing wall.

Did you walk to the crags and mountains and cliffs?

2
 jkarran 08 Jul 2021
In reply to Siward:

When I said spaghetti is good I had my tongue firmly in cheek. Obviously a world of tangled cables isn't great but we do ultimately want as many cars grid connected for as much of the time as possible.

I disagree that cables crossing paths is an inherently insolvable problem, if it's ultimately useful we'll figure a way to deal with it safely and neatly, also it will just be another part of tge built world we accept, expect and adapt to. Like kerbs really: serious trip hazard but very useful.

Jk

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

There is an almost universal misunderstanding of the magnitude of the problem of replacing petroleum by alternative energy sources. 

Meanwhile, world daily petroleum production and consumption are back up to pre-Covid levels and the global atmospheric CO2 concentration (as measured on Mauna Loa etc) continues its upward trend unabated.

 jkarran 08 Jul 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

> There is an almost universal misunderstanding of the magnitude of the problem of replacing petroleum by alternative energy sources. 

I can't quite work it out, do most people think the problem is bigger or smaller than it actually is?

To my mind the technical bit is coming along really quite nicely. The economic and political problem, what to do with hugely powerful and economicaly important multinational corporations, the many nations and even cultures built around hydrocarbons... That's orders of magnitude tougher and we've barely touched on it.

Jk

Post edited at 16:07
In reply to jkarran:

I think the problem is several orders of magnitude greater than the majority of people realise.

I agree that the technical side is coming along quite well: the whole transition is doable.  It's everything you say in the last sentence. And it's not just powerful corporations; it's most of us, after a century in which almost the entire growth in the global economy has been driven by petroleum.

So far we (mankind) have achieved very little by way of transition. 

1
 The Potato 08 Jul 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

If you need an estate car I'd highly recommend a Dacia Logan 1.5 diesel, no tax (ved) and I get an average of 62mpg over a year, 66mpg in summer for long journeys, 59mpg for shorter journeys in winter.

Plenty of good reasons not to get an electric just yet but I might do in about 5-8 years time when this one is dead

Post edited at 17:12
 Jamie Wakeham 09 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Well Fred99 knows damn well that there aren't any lamp posts on the road side of residential streets in his city, nor in the town that he works in, nor ......

Right, but that doesn't exactly prove that no such lampposts exist in the UK!  

Lamppost charging is one tiny part of the solution.  In the street that Maggot references, if there are three lampposts between 60 cars, and we ran two 7kW chargers from each, then six cars can charge every night.  If you need to charge one night in three, then 18 of the cars are sorted.  Now almost a third of all the cars on this street can be EVs.  That's not perfect but it's one hell of a start.

The point is that we do not need to have a solution for every single car to charge up right now.  That's letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.  We simply need to help every single person who wants to switch to EV to do so, and that's really not helped by boomers (and I do note that the majority of the strongly negative voices come from men in their sixties) constantly shouting it down.  So what if two thirds of that street can't charge using the lampposts?  At the moment there aren't 18 EVs on that street.  Eventually there will be, but by then there will be more options. There will be chargers at supermarkets.  At workplaces.  Solutions are going to emerge that we haven't even thought of yet.  

You accused me upthread of being selfish and said that you are the one who is 'looking out for everyone'.  I didn't have the time to reply fully back then so let me do so here.  I understand (as does John Stainforth) that the challenge of climate change is enormous.  It is the most important task of this generation and the next.  Every other concern pales beside it.  And every step we can take towards reducing carbon has to be taken.  Now.  We have no more time - in fact, we are already out of time.  I am not alright, Jack - I am in as much trouble as everyone else, and it is a vast amount of trouble.  This is a visualisation I sometimes use with students: https://xkcd.com/1732/

EVs are one small part of the solution.  Do they present their own problems?  Yes, of course.  Lithium mining is bad.  Ongoing particulate emissions are bad.  Fiddly, heath robinson ways to charge up are bad.  But absolutely none of it is as bad a climate change.

What's the alternative?  Any answer that includes continuing to burn petrol is simply no answer at all.

Post edited at 23:04
2
 fred99 10 Jul 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Right, but that doesn't exactly prove that no such lampposts exist in the UK!  

What it does prove is that there are large areas of the country, and therefore large numbers of the population, for whom running an EV is not a practical solution, let alone one which is financially viable.

> What's the alternative?  Any answer that includes continuing to burn petrol is simply no answer at all.

I strongly suggest that one of the major reasons that we have so many cars in our streets and on the roads in the first place is because so many people have moved out to leafy suburbs or country villages (where they've made homes too expensive for locals !), whilst remaining working in the towns/cities. These people end up having to drive everywhere - to take the children to school, even to buy a pint of milk. Trouble is, these very people who are the main cause of congestion and pollution are the ones best placed to recharge their EV's overnight. But demanding that everyone else - that is the people who go to work on bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles and on foot, and keep a car for weekends and occasional use - should purchase an extremely expensive, rare earth gobbling EV just because the suburbanites have ruined things is a bit much.

6
 Jamie Wakeham 10 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

No-one is making you buy an EV.  You can still buy a petrol for another eight-and-a-half years, and then you can continue to run it for as long as you can buy fuel.  

All innovation comes in at the top end.  New products are expensive at first, and then they become cheaper (and the second hand market fills out).  EVs are now as cheap to buy and run, overall, as comparable ICEs.  You can get a used Leaf for less than four grand.

Yes it would be just great if we all used cars less.  But given that people are going to want cars, then it is best if we make as many of them as we can be EVs, and part of that is to stop amplifying terribly weak reasons they shouldn't.

3
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

I had an old CRV petrol guzzling car, very safe and reliable it was, sold it to some guy who took it to Africa. 

Recently I replaced a  petrol guzzling underpowered Chevrolet Aveo, which was the absolute worse car I've ever had, I've had a Tata so I should know, with an old Skoda with an SDI diesel engine, and  it's absolutely brilliant you get very high mileage per gallon, in the future I plan to use vegetable oil to run it. High mileage to the gallon means less CO2 per mile, if you use veggie oil then almost net zero.

It's illegal here in Spain to use veg oil but who knows I'll stay clear of roundabouts 😂.... Police normally stop you at roundabouts here. Only pulling your leg I am sure there will be biodiesels from carbon capture soon

Post edited at 12:32
1
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> and part of that is to stop amplifying terribly weak reasons they shouldn't.

Maybe I have weak reasons? I’m interested in an BEV and considered it 2 yrs ago when I was changing, but wasn’t then sure about chargers in areas I go to. Various reasons not to change back then I noted at a practical level included for example the only then rapid charger in the area being out of action for three months according to potential users.

I’m actually now looking again and trying to build up more knowledge on electric cars/chargers etc., to decide when. However, practicality all round is still important to me. 2 yrs ago one thing was the availability of chargers at a practical level that put me off; ie available space and with the right chargers (no point in being not available due to ICE vehicles parked for example which I noted at many chargers last time).

Two years later, I was disappointed yesterday though when coincidentally I parked my ICE vehicle in a P&R car park which has had the largest number of chargers in it’s area for a long time. It’s next to a motorway, so reasonable for anyone to expect to drop in for a charge.

In the space of 5 mins I noticed 2 BEVs, separately, came in, looked at the chargers as a drive past (they obviously knew something without getting out of their cars), and drove off.

Before I left, I just had to have a look at the charging area of the car park to try and understand. Saw 8 bays, 2 occupied and charging, 6 bays unavailable due to all the others chargers not appearing to be working.

Also, I’ve noted recently, in other car parks, increasing number of company BEV vans parked up at night/weekends taking up spaces. They can’t be charging all the time they sit unoccupied in a space.

I really would like an electric car, but it’s this type of situation that delays my decision to change sadly. It’s somewhat off putting to find and I can’t be the only one? That said, I’m do feel I could live with the current range the newest cars are now giving to be able to just rely more or less on home charging most of the time.

1
 Timmd 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Dago theruinmargalef:

I've been wondering about using the takeaways and eateries round the corner from me as a bio-diesel source, when I eventually learn to drive.

Post edited at 14:21
1
In reply to Timmd:

I've heard it has to be an old diesel with a Bosch rotary pump. Which is what my Skoda has, the used oil has to be well filtered, there are a few videos showing you how. I think there is a legal limit to how much you can use in the UK.  There are loads of other old cars which run on the stuff out there. And outside temperatures are an important factor.

 Jamie Wakeham 11 Jul 2021
In reply to Climbing Pieman:

Chargers being out of order or ICE'd is certainly an issue.  It's becoming less bad as time goes on; I think ICE drivers are finally learning not to block the EV charging spots (or possibly the parking attendants have learned that it's yet another way to issue tickets).  I've not seen an ICE'd charger in a motorway services for a while now. 

The free charger spots in the Westgate in Oxford to tend to get filled with ICEs when the car park as a whole is nearly full, but there are quite a lot of them and I've yet to fail to get a space.  

The Ecotricity chargers at motorway services (the 'Electric Highway') were starting to become a problem.  Some of them have been in place for a decade and, anecdotally, the prevalance of out-of-order chargers was going up (even though personally I've been lucky and it's almost never been an issue for me).  This was threatening to become a real problem - I would say that this network is the most important one in the UK because it's the one that everyone turns to for long motorway trips.

But it's under new ownership, and the new owners, GridServe, are in the middle of a massive upgrade campaign.  Oddly enough this was on the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57768411

In reply to Dago theruinmargalef:

It's legal to use veg oil or biofuel that you have made yourself as long as you don't use more than 2500L per year.  More than that and technically you need to pay duty to HMRC.

It's arguable whether fresh veg oil is a great move compared to diesel; using recycled waste veg oil is clearly a good thing.  

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

A residential site (~300 leasehold apartments) that I am "professionally involved" with in London is sorting out electricity supply so that there is the capacity for every parking bay in the underground carpark to have a charger. I don't know whether that means all the spaces will end actually up with chargers but certainly those who want them will be able to have them.

I suspect this may eventually become a legal requirement that residential sites (leasehold; i.e. mainly apartment blocks) have to ensure that charger capacity is available for every parking space on that site.

 Jamie Wakeham 12 Jul 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

It's clearly madness to build a new residential car park without fitting charging capacity now.  Just like it's ridiculous to build a new house without incorporating PV in the roof and fitting proper insulation.  I fully expect legislation will back this up... oh, some time in the next decade or two...

For my sins, I chair the RMC on the estate I live on.  The houses all have driveways so they're fine.  We're looking at getting power supplied to all the flats' carports over the next year or so.  Thankfully almost all of them are next to one of two communal electricity meters, so we're hoping we can simply run cable from each meter out along the carports, and then individual owners can choose to break into that cabling and fit their own chargers when they want. 

Not sure how we will manage payment; individual energy meters would be most accurate but actually a flat yearly fee based on typical usage will be so much easier to manage!

There are four flats with no power anywhere near their carports, and they are going to be much harder.  We might just have to install a charger in a visitor space that is near a power supply and tell them they can use that.  

 jkarran 12 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> What it does prove is that there are large areas of the country, and therefore large numbers of the population, for whom running an EV is not a practical solution, let alone one which is financially viable.

No it doesn't. All you've done is show some lamp posts would require a little extra work to turn them into safe convenient roadside charging points and that there aren't enough lamp posts on some streets to charge all the EVs we'll ultimately build. Big deal. Back in the mists of time some paddocks required a little extra work to turn them into safe convenient roadside petrol stations.

Yes EVs are currently still pretty expensive new but second hand they're not bad. Most people spend a big chunk on cars, that's their expectation and they take on debt to do it. You and I may choose not to, preferring outdated cheaper cash buys but borrowing a few grand for a nice new-ish car is a cultural norm with lots of market support and it's one most people manage without suffering great economic harm.

> I strongly suggest that one of the major reasons that we have so many cars in our streets and on the roads in the first place is because so many people have moved out to leafy suburbs or country villages (where they've made homes too expensive for locals !), whilst remaining working in the towns/cities.

So you own a car because you need it, mostly it seems for your lifestyle, so you can travel for pleasure. They have cars because of unsustainable lifestyle choices. Hypocrisy?

Do 'locals' living in the villages others would also like to live in not need to travel for work and food?

> These people end up having to drive everywhere - to take the children to school, even to buy a pint of milk. Trouble is, these very people who are the main cause of congestion and pollution are the ones best placed to recharge their EV's overnight.

Why's that trouble? The early adopters of EVs have (had really, it's mature tech now) both the means and reasons to switch, to everyone's benefit. I mean jealousy aside that looks like a win to me.

> But demanding that everyone else - that is the people who go to work on bicycles, mopeds, motorcycles and on foot, and keep a car for weekends and occasional use - should purchase an extremely expensive, rare earth gobbling EV just because the suburbanites have ruined things is a bit much.

Nonsense, literally nobody is demanding that. By 2030 if you're buying a new car it will at least have to be a mild hybrid. So what?

Also 'rare earth gobbling' is emotive nonsense, the rare earth minerals used in magnets aren't actually that rare, we don't even exploit the known reserves so there has been little prospecting and permanent magnet motors are just one of several viable drive technologies: induction, switched reluctance and wound-magnet motors all work without any permanent magnets. Lithium is relatively abundant and will be recycled anyway before it's inevitably replaced by other better battery chemistry. There is no impact free mining/extraction, oil included of course but it's not all equally problematic for our climate which is the crunch issue of the century.

jk

Post edited at 13:25
3
 wintertree 12 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> Nonsense, literally nobody is demanding that. By 2030 if you're buying a new car it will at least have to be a mild hybrid. So what?

The way I see it, there's a death spiral coming to petrol stations now.  Owning a hybrid is going to suck ever more as the petrol stations go in to terminal decline.

For some people, ICE is already more hassle to fuel than BEV.  

As BEVs and charge points become ever more prevalent, the petrol station business model is on death watch I think, excluding major arterial road services where the cafe + toilet facilities matter a lot, and even those will have ever decreasing business for the filling station part with BEV charging being more integrated in to the car parking.

Aluminium ion battery technology is gradually maturing through the R&D pipeline; when that lands it'll be transformative in terms of resources - it'd take something like a decade of global lithium output to move the global fleet to BEVs, but it could be done with a fraction of the annual aluminium production - and there's also no shortage of recycled aluminium.

 jimtitt 12 Jul 2021
In reply to wintertree:

The German government are introducing legislation to permit power companies to shut down chargers and preserve grid stability. Going to cause havoc with all those carefully planned long trips!

2
 wintertree 12 Jul 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> The German government are introducing legislation to permit power companies to shut down chargers and preserve grid stability. Going to cause havoc with all those carefully planned long trips!

I think that's over-egging it a bit.  Having practicable (at a regional scale) loads that can be rapidly - and briefly - shed is an excellent way of maintaining grid stability (a non trivial problem as the number of recent major blackouts in developed nations show).   Loads that can be rapidly shed and reconnected are a great way of improving stability.  Some would see this as a step towards improving grid stability in emergency situations, rather than a regular inconvenience to BEV users.

There's either sufficient supply for the demand or not in general terms - timescales years and months.  

Grid stability comes down to matching those over timescale of hours, minutes and seconds.  

Even better still are big batteries that can act as a source as well as a sink of grid power, with rapid response; Australia for example is installing large stationary battery plants because of the vast cost savings they introduce to the process of maintaining grid stability - battery source/sink units have no inertia unlike almost all other power plant.  There's lots of work going on to distribute that capacity over BEV fleets, so what you point out as a problem could be seen by some as the first steps towards realising an additional advantage from BEVs...  Dedicate the top 10% of your battery to grid stability and earn income from the energy firms for example.

1
In reply to Timmd:

> I've been wondering about using the takeaways and eateries round the corner from me as a bio-diesel source, when I eventually learn to drive.

It's not that simple. Used veg oil, as well as containing crispy batter and bits of spring roll, will have a fairly high water content. It's not simply a matter of filtering it through a sock, you'll need to do a fair bit of solvent washing to remove the water and other impurities.

Also it won't lube like diesel does, and as someone else has pointed out, modern diesels won't tolerate it. It will also be very prone to waxing in cold conditions resulting in blocked fuel filters and possible injector damage.

If you're buying a clapped out wreck for a couple of hundred quid go for it, otherwise I'd steer clear.

In reply to Ridge:

> It's not that simple. Used veg oil, as well as containing crispy batter and bits of spring roll,

ok - so not a great source of fuel for the car - but free snacks?

 jimtitt 12 Jul 2021
In reply to wintertree:

It's the Greens/Nimbys, we need massive changes to the grid and generating capacity to replace nuclear and fossil fuels to cope with the huge changes in supply and demand but when everything is blocked then there's no alternative to rationing power.

The whole system has been built up over many decades and to change it will either take yet more decades or some brutal re-thinking on the part of the eco fans, neither the grid nor the generating capacity are being rebuilt anywhere near fast enough due to their opposition. We could double the output from the biogas plant with press of a button but can't plant more maize to feed it. Monoculture and all that.

3
 Harry Jarvis 12 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> You keep coming across as extremely selfish - well, you might be "alright Jack", but I prefer to look out for my fellow man (and woman !), so prefer the future to be good for all, not just the few, and particularly not just the well off few.

If you're really interested in making the future good for all, you should be fully in favour of anything and everything which will reduce our carbon emissions. Instead, you only seem interested in pointing out difficulties. There clearly are logistical problems, but doing nothing is not an acceptable option if you want a better future. 

Post edited at 17:05
3
 wintertree 12 Jul 2021
In reply to blurty:

> Transmission will need to be enhanced too. 

The national grid disagrees with this often held but not well evidenced claim.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

Peak demand has dropped significantly in the last 20 years, and there’s a lot more excess capacity at night.

What is needed is infrastructure to manage the peak load timings - and that’s being worked on.

 fred99 13 Jul 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> If you're really interested in making the future good for all, you should be fully in favour of anything and everything which will reduce our carbon emissions. Instead, you only seem interested in pointing out difficulties. There clearly are logistical problems, but doing nothing is not an acceptable option if you want a better future. 

I haven't so much "reduced" my carbon emissions as made a conscious effort not to let them rise in the first place - how many of you "disliking" me can say that ?

I walk when appropriate, cycle when it's a bit further, use a small motorcycle to commute, and save my car for when I can't do the journey any other way - and yes that does mean riding my motorcycle throughout the winter, including when it's bucketing down. I even use it when it's moderately icy, so long as I can travel safely.

Whenever I've gone to a gym/weight training I've always run there and back - very useful also as a warmup and warm down - NOT driven there and back. I don't take 3 holidays a year flying to foreign climes as do some people who then go on to boast about their eco-friendly car as if their flights (and the hire cars) never existed.

I produce so little waste that I once went 5 MONTHS before I filled up my recycling bin and put it out, let alone 2 weeks. Even the "other" bin gets only one small kitchen bin bag a fortnight. How many people panic if the bins aren't emptied on time because they've filled them two or three days before the due date ?

I don't have a pet, and therefore neither purchase all the highly processed food that pets need which have such a high carbon footprint, nor do I fill my bin with lots of little plastic bags containing you-know-what to fester for ages.

What I am trying to do is point out the practicalities that exist for the less well off, and those who live in the less large towns and cities in this country - that have woeful public transport at extortionate prices - along with querying how the National Grid could cope with the requirements.

Too many people who live in houses with off-road parking ignore the practicalities that others have, simply because they have never experienced them - the idea that people have swap cars around to and from charging lamp-posts in the night is one idea put forward that just won't work - who's going to get up at 3 in the morning to move their car for someone else to charge up.

And what about the emissions from all those ships carrying cargoes vast distances around the world ? Who amongst you think about this when you're in the supermarket ? I do, and make a point of purchasing food that hasn't travelled the world whenever possible.

2
In reply to fred99:

> I do, and make a point of purchasing food that hasn't travelled the world whenever possible.

Do you check the environmental footprint of UK-grown food? (I think you know what I am on about, the whole "is it better to ship tomatoes from Spain or to build a heated glass tomato farm in rural Nottinghamshire" kind of thing)

5
 jkarran 13 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> I walk when appropriate, cycle when it's a bit further, use a small motorcycle to commute, and save my car for when I can't do the journey any other way

Great but having an EV wouldn't prevent that and it doesn't prevent others taking a similar approach.

> Whenever I've gone to a gym/weight training I've always run there and back - very useful also as a warmup and warm down - NOT driven there and back. I don't take 3 holidays a year flying to foreign climes as do some people who then go on to boast about their eco-friendly car as if their flights (and the hire cars) never existed.

You're not being preached at about owning your car although moaning about others having a car for their lifestyle while you clearly do too is a bit hypocritical. People, I, get frustrated by your take on this as you keep amplifying trivial and non problems from a clear position of ignorance to dissuade others from taking steps toward electrification facilitating a move away from fossil energy.

> What I am trying to do is point out the practicalities that exist for the less well off, and those who live in the less large towns and cities in this country - that have woeful public transport at extortionate prices - along with querying how the National Grid could cope with the requirements.

Sigh. You've had the 'National Grid' issue explained time and time again, done right EVs are part of the solution not the problem. There's even a link up thread to someone from the NG disagreeing with you. Yes there will need to be local infrastructure improvements but that's life in a technological civilisation. It's why your house has running water and broadband, progress in a technological world requires investment and work.

Re. The less well off: IC vehicles are also pretty expensive to buy and from the perspective of someone on a tight budget they're still expensive to buy until they very nearly dead when they're very expensive to keep. Sure, the cheapest new EV is still a lot more than the comparable ICV (~£20k Fiat 500e vs 10k for the IC version) but the second hand market is pretty mature and it'll fill out fast over the next few years to look very much like the second hand ICV market.

Public transport being shit is only peripherally related to this discussion.

> Too many people who live in houses with off-road parking ignore the practicalities that others have, simply because they have never experienced them - the idea that people have swap cars around to and from charging lamp-posts in the night is one idea put forward that just won't work - who's going to get up at 3 in the morning to move their car for someone else to charge up.

It's not about getting up at 3am to shuffle cars about, stop being such a drama queen. So long as people move cars off public chargers once they're charged, not instantly, just as soon as reasonably possible rather than dumping them there all week then that's all that's needed to practically maximise the utility of the charger for all. Where the limit is power not space (unlikely in general but possible if we're re-using infrastructure like lamp-posts in the short term) the cars and the chargers could of course be designed to cooperate and share resources without direct human intervention, most already have a variety of timers and phone apps to manage charging and the logic will only get better as new standards and economic models emerge to incentivise charging behaviour in the wider public interest. Over time more charging points will become available meaning we can either have more EVs at the same ratio to chargers as now or we can leave them connected for more of the time which is better as it improves grid performance. It's a choice which future we pursue.

I've lived in terraces for years and while I do now technically own a drive I can't actually access it due to a dead car on it. I cope with alternatives, so far it's been very little hassle.

> I produce so little waste...

> I don't have a pet...

> Who amongst you think about this when you're in the supermarket ? I do...

Well done you.

jk

Post edited at 11:51
6
In reply to fred99:

> I walk when appropriate, cycle when it's a bit further

> Whenever I've gone to a gym/weight training I've always run there and back ...I don't take 3 holidays a year flying to foreign climes

> I produce so little waste that I once went 5 MONTHS before I filled up my recycling bin 

> I don't have a pet

Do you have children/grandchildren? 

6
 fred99 14 Jul 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Do you have children/grandchildren? 

No I do not. I do however have nephews, nieces, great nephews and great nieces - all of which I want to grow up in a clean and decent world.

I have personally therefore NOT contributed to the main reason the world is short of food, water and so forth, is becoming one great big tip, and is also using up it's resources at an alarming rate.

The biggest problem the world has (and therefore we have) is the population explosion.

Post edited at 18:12
2
 Forest Dump 14 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

And yet 90% of humanities negative impacts are driven by 10% of the worlds population (give or take)..

Hint, it aint the global south

Over-population my arse

Post edited at 18:17
6
In reply to fred99:

> No I do not.

Thank you.

2
In reply to Forest Dump:

> And yet 90% of humanities negative impacts are driven by 10% of the worlds population (give or take)..

fred99 is outside of that 10%, of course.

3
 Forest Dump 14 Jul 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Of course, he's made wise choices

1
 Maggot 14 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

I agree with most of what you say, and it's marvellous with what you do.
But, I'm more and more developing an attitude of what's the f*cking point.
When I see figures like 5% of the population are responsible for 95% (approx!) of the problem.
Classic argument, the poor, the 95%, of which I'm well ensconced in, will end up paying and suffering the worst.
My piddling efforts are going to make shag all difference.  I've always made the effort to do my recycling, but when you see vast amounts of our 'recycled' plastic is getting burnt in poverty stricken countries, again, what is the f*cking point?!?!?
 

2
 fred99 15 Jul 2021
In reply to Maggot:

The trouble with us in the UK being all marvellous regarding recycling, not wasting resources, and so forth, is that whatever we do is overwhelmed by the way the greatest contributors to global warming/waste production/etc carry on. These are not just the developed countries, but in many cases, particularly with regard to waste, even the developing countries are major contributors.

One example; recently, due to Covid, India has had a large increase in funerals - they have now got to the position where wood is scarce. Some bodies were just put into the rivers. How much did that contribute to global warming, the decimation of tree cover, AND pollution of water.

The only thing we can do is to boycott any products (that we are able to) from said countries.

Only when they're hit in their wallets will anything be done.

1
In reply to fred99:

Although any changes the UK makes have little impact at a global level, what we can do is invest in developing both the behaviours and the technology that (hopefully) will get humanity past the coming climate crisis.

If we as a country can show it working, then with the appropriate political pressure, other countries will follow our lead.

In reply to fred99:

How will boycotting Indian exports alter the way in which the population disposes of dead bodies? 

 Harry Jarvis 15 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> The trouble with us in the UK being all marvellous regarding recycling, not wasting resources, and so forth, is that whatever we do is overwhelmed by the way the greatest contributors to global warming/waste production/etc carry on. These are not just the developed countries, but in many cases, particularly with regard to waste, even the developing countries are major contributors.

The major contributors to global warming are the developed countries. Waste is a different issue, although some of the waste problems are due to the export of waste from developed countries. We are responsible for tonnes of electrical and electronic waste, but send our discarded devices to developing countries for disposal - we have a disappointing out-of-sight out-of-mind attitude in this regard. 

But with regard to greenhouse gas emissions, the developed countries of Europe and North America, along with a small number of developed Asian countries are by far the worst culprits. You want to boycott countries responsible for global warming. You go ahead with that if you feel it will make a difference. However, I don't know what boycotting these countries would really achieve, or whether it would be more effective than demonstrating that there are low-carbon developments that will enable developing countries to grow their economies, without inflicting the same environmental damage that we have done in the past, and continue to do. 

 Harry Jarvis 15 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> Only when they're hit in their wallets will anything be done.

Only when we show there are other low-carbon ways of running our economy will anything be done. 

 Timmd 15 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

I'm also wondering how boycotting Indian goods will stop them putting bodies into the river Ganges, or cremating the dead on wood pyres.

 Timmd 15 Jul 2021
In reply to Ridge:

Yes indeed, there's something which is about the size of a small person, or an upright hot water tank, which the old oil is poured into the top of, and some solvents added, and something usable comes out at the bottom.  I understand that a dry method of filtration is being developed, using some kind of ceramic filters (something along those lines), towards removing what needs to be, but without using solvents.

I think some conversions have heaters in them, to warm up the oil before it gets to the engine and the injector nozzles.

Post edited at 15:53
 Timmd 15 Jul 2021
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> Only when they're hit in their wallets will anything be done.

> Only when we show there are other low-carbon ways of running our economy will anything be done. 

I think you're both right, the needs to be a financial incentive as well as an alternative.

 fred99 16 Jul 2021
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> How will boycotting Indian exports alter the way in which the population disposes of dead bodies? 

I wasn't referring specifically to India in this instance - though their Hindu method of funerals is hardly eco-friendly.

I was referring to the general purchasing of anything from any and all countries that are environmental vandals; mainly China and Russia.

However it is downright crazy that we are giving aid to India whilst their government is indulging in space exploration.

 jkarran 16 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> I was referring to the general purchasing of anything from any and all countries that are environmental vandals; mainly China and Russia.

By that standard, where would you buy from?

> However it is downright crazy that we are giving aid to India whilst their government is indulging in space exploration.

Yes and no.

jk

 Harry Jarvis 16 Jul 2021
In reply to jkarran:

> By that standard, where would you buy from?

And define environmental vandals. Depending on your chosen definition, you wouldn't buy anything from the USA (highest per capita CO2 emissions of any G7 country). Most of Europe has high per capita emissions, as has Australia (which also has a disgraceful attitude towards emissions reductions) as has the Middle East. Much of South America is out, because of deforestation. 

You might be left with a few African and Asian countries, although deforestation is a problem there. Asian deforestation is complicated by the fact that some of it is  due to the demand for palm oil for food processors in developed countries. 

I suspect the supermarket shelves would be quite bare without imports. 

Of course, we should also be doing our bit to put our house in order. There is plenty of work to be done before the UK can consider itself to be on the right path. 

 jimtitt 16 Jul 2021
In reply to fred99:

> However it is downright crazy that we are giving aid to India whilst their government is indulging in space exploration.

Probably what the Americans thought when the UK started it's space program while receiving aid under the Marshall Plan

 Timmd 21 Jul 2021
In reply to jimtitt: Could have been a reasonable point of view in that instance. I always have the UK's colonial treatment of India in the back of my mind, when it comes to aid, and wonder if there's a (moral and financial) debt to be paid to the country, whatever they choose to spend the money on? That it's not our place on principle in this instance.

It could be argued to be an unfortunate thing, that there's less ground to speak from given our history.

Post edited at 00:15

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