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Electric Car choice

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 RX-78 23 Apr 2022

Currently we are car free but looking at getting a car in the near future. I would go for all electric but my wife will not as she thinks the charging network is still too under developed. So we are arguing about hybrids, plug-in or not. To my mind plug in is the next best to fully electric and has the advantage over non plug in hybrid or being able to be run fully electric for short journeys. But maybe i have it wrong what are people's experience of hybrids snd would you recommend one?

 wintertree 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

We've been using a BEV as our main family car for about 6 years now.  

> but my wife will not as she thinks the charging network is still too under developed.

That's changed dramatically in the last couple of years IMO.  

Far more fast (~30 miles/hour or ~80 miles/hour depending on car and charge post combo) destination chargers

Far more rapid (200 miles/hour up to 800 miles/hour depending on car and charger combo) rapid chargers on arterial routes. These just taking a contactless credit card instead of an infernal mobile phone app.

Combined with the range on the recent explosion of BEV models and it's basically "problem solved" if you also have home charging IMO. 

>  But maybe i have it wrong what are people's experience of hybrids snd would you recommend one?

I don't like hybrids; you say "best of both worlds" but to my mind they carry around the weight of the ICE and fuel tank, and the weight of the battery pack, inverter/charger and DC motor and seem like a kludge that is rapidly going to fall out of favour as the rise in pure-BEV range continues and as the proliferation of charging infrastructure continues.  You don't get many of the auxiliary cost savings of BEVs (elimination of all vehicle fluid changes, engine air filter, engine oil filter, dramatic reduction in the number of moving parts and failure prone sensors and actuators) either.  It's gets the best and the worst of both worlds.  Mild hybrid is a pretty minimal overhead approach to improving ICE efficiency but a full-on hybrid?  

The only hybrid I've driven was a BMW i8 on a test drive; I was distinctly under-whelmed by it.  The driving experience of having different sorts of propulsive response at different times was really disengaging.  If you're happy driving a torque converter automatic it probably won't bother you...  To be fair, my view was clouded by the ******* stupid **** ***** ***** ******* electronically amplified engine noise coming from the speakers.  What in the name of all that used to be holy has become of BMW?

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 Jamie Wakeham 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

> ...my wife will not as she thinks the charging network is still too under developed.

What's the longest journey you undertake in normal use?  Plenty of models have ranges in the region of 250 miles now, and the new Kia EV6 is among those with more than 300 miles.  If you're happy breaking your journey in half with a 20 minute stop on motorway rapid then you're easily adding 60 miles (more in some cases).  

OK, if you live somewhere remote and need to do 400+ miles then I concede that it's not for you, yet, but for most people's purposes the network is there.  I can do Oxford -> North Wales or the northern parts of the Lakes with no more stops than I would normally choose to take for coffee breaks.

>To my mind plug in is the next best to fully electric

Mmm.  As Wintertree points out, it's an ICE with half a ton of battery strapped to the undercarriage.  In some slightly niche cases they are a great solution, and in many others they aren't.

My previous car was an Outlander PHEV and, for me, it was great.  90% of my trips were under 20 miles so 100% battery, and yet I still had a car that could do the occasional longer trip when I needed.  But if you regularly go further than the battery range then you're just carrying all that extra weight around unnecessarily.

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 plyometrics 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

We’ve just bought a plug in hybrid e-pace. Only get a 34m range when in fully electric mode, but in hybrid the mpg is great and it does recharge itself to a certain degree. 

We wanted to go fully electric, but being based in Cumbria with both my wife and I needing to do long journeys, the infrastructure is miles off round here. 

I’m no expert, but I’m not convinced about EV long term, meaning the hybrid option is a great compromise for us whilst we see what the future holds on that front.

 Hugo First 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

Just go electric, you won’t regret it.

charging network isn’t perfect but it’s improving all the time. We don’t have a charge point at home and manage absolutely fine, it’s really a non-issue.

we’ve had our Kia eniro 6 months now and I’d never go back to an ICE. The driving experience is as stress free as you could wish for (and fun when you want it to be).

ours does ~280 miles on a full charge. The longest journey we do is ~250 miles and it’s as simple as stop on motorway for a coffee and pee which we’d do anyway. Plug in for 30 mins and you’ve just added 50% charge.

for day to day use, I charge generally whenever you’re parked somewhere. Ideally when at the supermarket where it’s often free.

honestly, they’re ace. I toyed with a phev for ages but decided to take the plunge and have zero regrets.

good luck finding one at the moment though! 
 

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cb294 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

Since a couple of months I drive a Hyundai Ioniq5 and am almost completely happy with it. Should have forked out the 4k€ for the larger battery, though, but that only made a difference when driving the length of Germany over Easter (visiting my son on the North Sea coast from close to the Alps). As it is, we had 4 recharging stops of 20 min vs. probably 3 with the larger battery, or more likely, we would have been able to go slightly faster and stick with 4 stops.

CB

 Trangia 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I'm interested in this discussion because we are contemplating a car change. Our biggest problem is that we have no parking either on or off road to our house. The nearest road parking is about 150 yards along a public footpath  from our house, and the parking is not exclusive, so there is no guarantee that we could park there at anytime if someone else got there first. There is the possibility of alternative street parking , but again there is always the risk that someone else might be parking in one of these spots. so availability of a space varies from day to day from about 150 yards to 500 yards from our house. There are currently no street charging points. So to charge an electric car would entail running a flexible cable from the house and across/along the public pavements, if this is both possible and legal?

So it looks as though for the foreseeable future home charging is going to be a problem, which suggests that a hybrid is our only option unless we stick to either a fully petrol or diesel, in which case there seems to be little point in changing, we might just as well keep the existing petrol car, but for how long is this going to be sustainable? 

There must be thousands of motorists in this situation?

In reply to RX-78:

I had a look at this a couple of months ago looking for a replacement for our diesel SUV which is getting really old.

I've driven Toyota Prius hybrids a few times as rental cars in the US and it was quite fun but I wouldn't buy a hybrid for the same reasons as wintertree. It's not good engineering to have two separate propulsion systems. You've got the weight of the battery and the maintenance and hassle of the ICE.

In the end I decided to get another year out of the diesel largely because our insurance company out of the blue cut our premium in half and changed the economics of keeping it. My next car will definitely be electric.

cb294 23 Apr 2022
In reply to Trangia:

Unless I am travelling long distance, I charge my car once a week on a 150kw rapid charger in my village, usually while training 250m from the charging station (or when going for a post training beer in the pub right next to it). Since I can get a full charge in 45 min or so that is easily enough.

I could also charge at work on a 22kW charge point, but would have to move my car at lunch time to free up the charging point, so I rarely use it.

When we will eventually move to the house we bought I will install a home charger, but at the rental place we live in at the moment we can do well without home charging.

 Axel Smeets 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

A lot of good info on this thread already so I can't add much extra.

However, I drive a PHEV and my wife drives a full electric. I have car envy. Go figure  

 RobAJones 23 Apr 2022
In reply to plyometrics:

> We’ve just bought a plug in hybrid e-pace. Only get a 34m range when in fully electric mode

One of Mrs J's friends, in Germany, has a hybrid Merc. her logic was that her commute was 20 miles and she could charge at work and home hut she wanted a hybrid for the occasional longer trip. It seemed to make sense but when she said she had only filled up twice this year I did question the need for a hybrid v the hassle of charging on those occasional longer journeys. 

> We wanted to go fully electric, but being based in Cumbria with both my wife and I needing to do long journeys, the infrastructure is miles off round here. 

I might have got this wrong but being based in Cumbria, provided you can charge at home, seems an advantage rather than a problem? We haven't got an EV yet, but do have a charger at home, partly because we will have one soon, but also because it helps friends and relatives visiting from the likes of South Manchester who do have EV's for whom the lack of public chargers here is a problem . In the future me going to visit people where there are already a reasonable number of public  chargers means I don't need to rely on them having one at home. 

> I’m no expert, but I’m not convinced about EV long term

What do you think is going to rival them. I can see driverless technology completely changing our relationship with vehicles, but had assumed the move to EV's over the short/medium term was almost certain. 

In reply to RX-78:

Hybrids are probably going to depreciate more than BEV’s in the near future as battery technology develops and charging stations are becoming as common as gas stations. Then nobody need them anymore. 

 girlymonkey 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I feel like a hybrid is the worst of both. You add the weight and servicing needs of an ICE to the load that an already small battery has to carry around. 

We got an electric van, with a teeny weeny batter (24kwh) and we love it. Yes, we stop to charge absolutely loads, but the dogs get extra walks and I don't risk falling asleep at the wheel! Happy days all round!

In reply to girlymonkey:

Hi,

What van is it? A local friend got an small electric van, had no end of issues with it (need to ask again what it was). Thanks. 

 Bulls Crack 23 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

A friend of ours who is responsible for rolling-out EV provision in Bradford advised us, about 8 months ago, to wait a couple of years before getting shot of our aging inherited Golf hybrid (which I'd like to get shot of tbh). She thinks the techncology will have made a step-change by then. 

Meanwhile our neighbours  (in a street with 70% EV ownership)  have given up their fossil fuel  cars and have 2 EV's and don't regret it. 

 girlymonkey 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Simonfarfaraway:

Nissan ENV200. We got it second hand a year ago and it has been super. First vehicle we have owned to ever cruise through the MOT with nothing needing done 😃

 PaulW 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

Check out speakev.com for some reasonable discussion about electric and hybrid trade offs

 Siward 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Hugo First:

I'm with you on this but I do find that many people, when talking about range on electric cars, talk about stops of 30 minutes or more built into the journey that they would have had anyway, giving the impression that the need to top up charge is no big deal.

For me, if I stopped at all during a 250 mile journey it would be to nip in for a pee and a takeaway coffee- 5 mins- and on my way. Usually I just wouldn't stop for that length of journey.

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 veteye 24 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm still thinking about when to get an electric vehicle, as I'm not sure that it is not as Bull's crack's friend says, that things will move forward by another step soon. Yet the other consideration is that of fully recycling all of these batteries, and continuously sourcing new amounts of the less common metals, especialy when Russia and China seem are aiming to collar the market by unfair means.

 plyometrics 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

Unfortunately, our drive is separated from the house by a 30m garden, so getting a charger in isn’t that simple, but it’s something we’re looking at and it will definitely help. 

For me, I think the long term challenges are around infrastructure and power supply. EV’s are a great idea, but imagine, in time, trying to provide charging for every single vehicle in the country. Currently, EV take up is exceeding infrastructure roll out.

No idea what the alternatives are I’m afraid, hydrogen maybe? Like I say, not an expert, just feel there’s a massive disconnect between take up and infrastructure. 

Interesting FT article here: https://www.ft.com/content/5e41d4c8-b848-4b50-9789-0496f6379f53

 girlymonkey 24 Apr 2022
In reply to veteye:

Things will always move forward with technology, and I will never be at the leading edge of it! I don't need to be. The second hand market has loads of good options and when I need to replace the current one, there will be fancier ones on the second hand market than there are now. I have never bought a new ICE either, despite newer ones being cleaner/ quieter/ more efficient/ safer. There is always something better. 

Battery recycling is a thing already, and will continue to grow, but actually the bigger thing needs to be reusing them, so buying second hand! 

We still have an ICE too, and I don't like it. I avoid driving it if I can. 

In reply to RX-78:

I’ve not made the switch yet, but have test driven a BEV, plug-in, and been a passenger in a non plug in hybrid.

I found the acoustic experience of the trips in hybrid cars unsettling with engine revs being totally disconnected, sometimes contrary to normal expectations, to the acceleration and deceleration of the car such that I decided a hybrid was not for me.

Hearing the engine rev up when the car was slowing and vice versa, and when as a passenger the car was being pushed, the small engine screaming at max revs at times didn’t make for a relaxing journey. I’ve driven vehicles with constant revs in the past and using hydraulics to change speed and that was fine, but surreal to hear increasing revs when you know you are slowing, the sheer volume of noise at times, etc, … not for me.

Fully electric was a joy to drive, and will be my next car. Sorry, not much help to you if BEVs are out. That said, if I really had to choose between plug in or non plug in only, I would go for plug in so that I could maximise the running in battery.

cb294 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Siward:

> For me, if I stopped at all during a 250 mile journey it would be to nip in for a pee and a takeaway coffee- 5 mins- and on my way. Usually I just wouldn't stop for that length of journey.

Yes, travelling by EV is different, it really feels like a hybrid between your own car and public transport. I am usually perma stressed, so the forced breaks, like airport stopovers, are actually quite relaxing.

That said, when I will pick up my son in summer from his voluntary service up on the North Sea coast I will have to rent a van, and I will go for a bog standard diesel for the 1600 km return drive.

CB

 girlymonkey 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Siward:

If you got a newer electric car, you wouldn't need to stop in that distance. I would need to stop several times in that distance in any car as I don't do sitting still, I need to get out and move. So my wee battery suits us fine as the driving distances roughly equate to my tolerance for sitting still and concentrating anyway! Even many on the second hand market now will do close to that, so a top up at your 5 min pee stop would be enough probably. 

In reply to RX-78:

Im about ready for a car change and want leccy. I have an estate and selecting estate on Autotrader gets me either an MG, which I wouldn't touch, or a 100k plus porsche taycan!

 Hooo 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Siward:

I do think the "Just stop for 30 minutes and have a coffee" thing is a bit dishonest and anyone who buys an EV on the back of it is going to be disappointed. To be honest, stopping to charge on a journey is often a massive PITA. Based on my experience if I have to do a charge stop I will allow an hour. First I have to plan the route and my charge stop - it's not like an ICE where I can drive until the light comes on and then call in at the next services. Then when I get to the location I have to find the charging point, which is never clearly visible or signposted. Then, assuming the charge point is working and available I may have to faff about with an awful phone app to get a charge. If it's not working I will need to have a backup plan. If it's in use I may have to wait 40 minutes. Yes, it's improving, but it's still a massive ball-ache compared to filling up with diesel. I love having an EV and I'm committed to it, but I have a campervan that I use for longer journeys. Realistically any journey that can't be completed within the range of the car is too much trouble and I'll take the van instead.

 veteye 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I would possibly have bought a Kia as an electric car, as the range is better than some, but it is more money than a conventional diesel, and I don't want the huge wasted internal volume you get with SUV style vehicles. I want something which is not as tall, and thereby get a little more range with the vehicle.

The best one which I tried so far was the Jaguar, but at over £70,000, I don't feel that I can consider it.

 George Ormerod 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

What’s availability like there? We were after a Toyota plug in hybrid and were told there was a 2 year waiting list!!

cb294 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Hooo:

This is why I bought a Hyundai Ioniq5 (same as the Kia EV6 underneath, which I also tested but did not really like, not enough headroom for me): Both have 800V internal electrics make for charging at twice the speed of a normal BEV with 400V, e.g. a Kia e-Niro, which in all other respects would have been the nicer, smaller, and cheaper car.

The charging rate made the difference for me, and I have not regretted that. In my experience, charging 15-80% in 18-20 min is a reliable, real life value.

 Hooo 24 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

It's not the charging time that's the problem for me though. It's all the other stuff - diverting off route, locating the charge point, waiting if it's in use, getting the thing to work. All that takes longer than the actual charging.

 Graeme G 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Hooo:

And do they not all have different connectors? What a faff. Stuff that.

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 girlymonkey 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

Most are now standard. Mine is an older Nissan, so it does have a different connector, but the charge points all have both types on them for rapid charges. It's not a hassle at all. My home charger isn't tethered, so in the future if we have a vehicle with the other type then we can still use it, just use the other cable.

 Graeme G 24 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

Ta. I’ll still wait until I ‘have to’ though.

 Sealwife 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> And do they not all have different connectors? What a faff. Stuff that.

Hmm yes, in the same way that the pumps at the filling station have different nozzles for petrol and diesel.  Except that it’s not actually possible to plug your car into the wrong one unlike filling your car with the wrong fuel (which I have done and that really was a faff).

Generally the rapid charger have a selection of cables tethered to them and you pick the one which fits your car.  Fast chargers don’t usually have cables, you have to use your own one, which comes with the car.

Home chargers - you can choose tethered or untethered, the choice is yours.  You can get a tethered cable changed or buy an adapter if you need to.

 ExiledScot 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

We have a ceed estate hybrid. It does pretty well on battery and even when on the ice it's around 5l/100km due to the constant recharging. The computer system/ menus isn't the best, but apart from that we are very happy. The next move will be full ev, or another hybrid, never back to ice. I don't know anyone who has had an ev or hybrid who won't have another, the nay sayers are those who have never tried them. 

cb294 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Hooo:

Possibly better in Germany, but all that is essentially no issue for me. I had one charger fail for me but just took the next one, and so far have never had to wait,Check the charging app on the phone for unoccupied motorway chargers or chargers close to motorway exits, and put the address in the navigation of the car (as the car has charging points listed but not filtered by charging network or occupancy).

 hokkyokusei 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

If you can have a charger at home, get a BEV.  I think hybrids are the worst of both worlds, logging around the engine, gearbox, clutch, fuel, clutch, battery and electric motor! I'd only consider one if I didn't have a home charger and lived somewhere like North Yorkshire, or Cumbria, which are both charging deserts, and even then, I'd probably stick with an ICE.

Having said all that, I'm the happy owner of a BEV and will be moving to Cumbria soon, though the house does have a charger!

 ExiledScot 24 Apr 2022
In reply to hokkyokusei:

>  North Yorkshire, or Cumbria, which are both charging deserts, and even then, I'd probably stick with an ICE.

National parks or conservation areas still can't cope with the idea of electrified rail, solar panels on roofs etc... the idea of a charging unit on an outside wall blows planning committees minds. 

 Tom Valentine 24 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Estate cars are a dying breed anyway, due to the curse of the SUV.

 ExiledScot 24 Apr 2022
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Estate cars are a dying breed anyway, due to the curse of the SUV.

Our hybrid Ceed estate is nearly as good as an octavia. The down side are the lower profile rails forcing me to replaces the feet on the roof rack. 

 Neston Climber 24 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Everyone I have seen out and about in an MG5 says they are great. I know they are made in China but so are the Volvo Polestars, most Tesla's in Europe and tons of others. Will probably be our next car as the estate shape is probably still best for us.

 Neston Climber 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

EV life has mostly been great for us over the last 18months, and we don't even have a drive. We are lucky in Cheshire West that our town carpark has a good amount of reliable chargers that we can use cheaply overnight.

We have driven up and down the country in a 100mile range Leaf and had very few problems.when we have on a rare occasion had to que for a charge, or had nothing to do while we wait I just remind myself that I'm saving about £10 per hundred miles of driving! I'd happily sit in my car for half an hour for £10 under most circumstances.

Post edited at 22:24
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 Babika 24 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

You say you are "looking at getting a car in the near future". 

For info I ordered a PHEV in January, due May. Now likely June, or maybe later. The dealer told me if I ordered now it would be some time in 2023. 

So if you are genuinely looking at changing in the near future you might want to check availability on different cars

In reply to Neston Climber:

> Everyone I have seen out and about in an MG5 says they are great. I know they are made in China but so are the Volvo Polestars, most Tesla's in Europe and tons of others. Will probably be our next car as the estate shape is probably still best for us.

Not so much where they are made, as most of the stuff we use/wear is Chinese-manufactured, unfortunately. Its what they are, in the same way I'd never own an iPhone.

Due to Covid my car is still only 34k in but its 5 years old now. Its a 530 diesel and I get 40 mpg so its not overly thirsty and still has eons of life left. I guess I'll run it for another while and hope a proper electric estate is launched.

I dislike SUVs so would avoid if I could.

Post edited at 06:49
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 veteye 25 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I also dislike SUVs. They are more about people feeling safe w a bulkier car: And also about having enough space in the seating compartment, to just chuck everything in, children, pets and junk included (rather than taking care to put things in efficiently and logically, which requires less space, and therefore a lower height and profile).

I am replying, as I am curious as to why you bought such a large engined vehicle, when you obviously don't use the engine potential for speed and acceleration that much, if you get 40 mpg.

PS. Why do most Sports Utility Vehicles have much sport about them, or is it about putting lots of cricket bats and tennis racquets in there?

 Alkis 25 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> The only hybrid I've driven was a BMW i8 on a test drive; I was distinctly under-whelmed by it.  The driving experience of having different sorts of propulsive response at different times was really disengaging.  If you're happy driving a torque converter automatic it probably won't bother you...  To be fair, my view was clouded by the ******* stupid **** ***** ***** ******* electronically amplified engine noise coming from the speakers.  What in the name of all that used to be holy has become of BMW?

It's also quite unreliable. My boss had one, they kept having to take it to the garage and eventually got rid.

In reply to veteye:

> I also dislike SUVs. They are more about people feeling safe w a bulkier car: And also about having enough space in the seating compartment, to just chuck everything in, children, pets and junk included (rather than taking care to put things in efficiently and logically, which requires less space, and therefore a lower height and profile).

I agree, with a roof box, we can fit 4 kids, a large dog, large bell tent and a week's worth of camping gear.

> I am replying, as I am curious as to why you bought such a large engined vehicle, when you obviously don't use the engine potential for speed and acceleration that much, if you get 40 mpg.

I dont drive like a loon and am proud of my clean license but I got a fab deal on an ex demo, fully loaded. Its nice to have confidence in overtaking and joining a motorway too and an occasional safe burst of speed is pleasant 😉

In reply to RX-78:

My worry with a full EV is not so much stopping on the way to charge during a long journey, it is what to do when you get to your destination. I've just come back from a week in the Lakes staying at Lowick Green and we drove around a fair bit whilst there. None of the places we parked had EV charging and there was no EV charge point at the place we stayed (or was that a common option on the rental sites). As charging a full EV from a regular domestic mains is so slow, I'm not sure we could have managed. We currently have a Volvo V50 diesel. I filled it up the day before we left Cumbria and drove back to our home on the Welsh border in Herefordshire, zeroing the MPG computer before leaving. 60mpg over 252miles in 4hrs 10mins. Heart says EV but...

1
 Ben Callard 25 Apr 2022
In reply to blackmountainbiker:

Whenever I've been away I charge my car on the rentals three pin sockets over night. It's never been an issue, and I've always started my return journey with a full battery. It also doesn't cost anything. 

1
 Jamie Wakeham 25 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

It's intriguing that these threads are generally all the same - the actual EV owners are mostly positive and all the nay saying comes from those who don't have one!

Yeah, there are charging deserts still - Cumbria isn't great, for example.  But living in such an area is fine, because you always leave your house at 100%.  Visiting is a bit trickier, and I do make quite a bit of use of the excellent rapids at Booths in Keswick...

Destination charging: in the last six years I have once been told I can't charge.  I've lost count of the number of hotels, campsites, airbnbs, who have cheerfully let me trail a cable to charge overnight.  Generally they refuse payment, or just take a token fiver.  It's a non issue.

I get that there are those with iron bladders who can do four hours non stop on the motorway, and for those the charge stops will feel more onerous.  I quite like having a 15 minute break every couple of hours!  If you had to do a really long drive it would get a bit dull (and worth finding something that charges faster than 50kW).  I'm in the middle of a project that has me driving to all corners of England and Wales (from Oxford) and range isn't really an issue - I can hit Land's End, Pembroke, Northumberland, with basically the same stops to recuperate that I'd be taking in an ICE.

Yes, there should be more estates.  I quite like my small SUV for the driving position - helps my back - but the MG5 is getting excellent reviews and is ridiculously cheap.  It's not the same MG as the Rover merger, just a Chinese company who bought the badge.

If you can't charge at home, or you genuinely drive 500 miles in a hit all the time, then it's not for you.

 fmck 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It's intriguing that these threads are generally all the same - the actual EV owners are mostly positive and all the nay saying comes from those who don't have one!

Funny you should say that as I don't, but soon to have a company one that I don't really want. The guy next to me in office is constantly ranting about his. " I've got a 40K milkfloat that I cant put the heating on or radio or I wont make it home"

4
 ianstevens 25 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> We have a ceed estate hybrid. It does pretty well on battery and even when on the ice it's around 5l/100km due to the constant recharging. The computer system/ menus isn't the best, but apart from that we are very happy. The next move will be full ev, or another hybrid, never back to ice. I don't know anyone who has had an ev or hybrid who won't have another, the nay sayers are those who have never tried them. 

I had a 2L deisel only Audi Estate that would do 4.4 l/100 km on the motorway... so 5l/100 km is really not that great for something which should be using non-ICE energy too.

 yorkshireman 25 Apr 2022
In reply to RobAJones:

> One of Mrs J's friends, .... when she said she had only filled up twice this year I did question the need for a hybrid v the hassle of charging on those occasional longer journeys. 

Also, she's carrying around a tank of petrol all year which can go stale. Also if you're only firing up the engine every few weeks or months I don't think that is good for an ICE. 

Hybrids made sense once but today BEVs win any argument over ICE (assuming you have somewhere to charge it). The one remaining is maybe cost but if you look at lifetime value (servicing as well as fuel) that probably becomes moot. 

I put in an order for a Tesla model Y a few weeks ago to replace our diesel Land Rover. I actually really wanted the Skoda Enyaq but we need AWD as we live on the side of a mountain in the Alps and when you added up all the options it wasn't much cheaper. However Skoda couldn't guarantee one until at least October (this was in Feb). 

This seems to be the case everywhere with long lead times and some options not available (were told we couldn't have automatic tailgate as the chips needed weren't available). 

Visited my parents at the weekend in UK and took my dad round showrooms as he's looking to switch too. Volvo told him to expect a year lead time and everyone else was at least 6 months. Second hand BEV cars will be holding their value for a while. 

1
 ExiledScot 25 Apr 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

> I had a 2L deisel only Audi Estate that would do 4.4 l/100 km on the motorway... so 5l/100 km is really not that great for something which should be using non-ICE energy too.

Returning home I did 5.1 yesterday, with bikes on the roof on twisting A roads, if I'd started on battery for the first 40miles the average would be way lower.

For the next 2 weeks or more I'm local, so will be pure EV, where cost per mile is less than half of petrol. How much diesel will you use in the next 2-3 weeks? 

I wouldn't ditch the Audi until it's life is up, but ev and hybrids aren't the disasters petrol heads claim. 

 David Bowler 25 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Our MG5 Long Range estate is working fine for 4 climbers and gear from Shrewsbury to the Peak or North Wales with no need to charge during the day.

cb294 25 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

I tested the Skoda Enyaq and REALLY hated it, as it has a "penis extension" type giant bonnet made to look as if it housed a huge ICE that even for me (as a talll man) makes seeing the road right in front of the car extremly difficult.

My wife, who at 165cm is not particularly tiny, could see the road only 15 m or so away, even though she had raised the driver seat to the highest position.

Designing something that interferes with driver vision this badly shows a complete disregard for the security of others, in particular as in a BEV a huge SUV-like bonnet serves no purposes at all but as an "aggressive design" wank aid.

The responsible  designer should be shot once the first Enyaq driver kills a toddler they failed to see.

I had he opposite problem with a Kia EV6, where the side windows are slit like and restrict vision towards traffic coming from the side (and the roof is too low so I almost bump my head even with the seat maximally dropped ).

CB

2
cb294 25 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

Also, if you put in an order for a ICE car (e.g. Mercedes E or S type, where a dealer gave me the info to compare withe their BEVs) rather than buying one off a forcourt delivery times are not much better. Supposedly this is due to supply problems with electronic parts.

As an argument against BEVs it does not really hold water!

CB

 Axel Smeets 25 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I'll add a little more to what I wrote earlier up the thread. One or two have dismissed hybrids as a non-starter but in certain circumstances they make good sense. I drive a Volvo S90 T8 which has a battery which gives me about 26-27 miles on pure electric (40 miles claimed but that's nonsense in real life). My daily commute is 12 miles round trip (urban stop-start driving) so I can do two days electric power only commuting on a single charge (costs me about £2.50 on my current tariff for a full charge). 

Once or twice a month I will have to do a longer drive of maybe 100 miles round trip. This obviously is much longer than the battery range so the car switches to hybrid mode. On a 100 mile trip the mix of battery and petrol gives me 60-70 miles to the gallon which is pretty good for a large Volvo. On longer trips the effect of the battery diminishes (and obviously hinders due to the added weight). However, I still get low 40s mpg on a 300 mile trip which is perfectly fine for a big car. 

I've just checked my Volvo app and over the past month, 80% of my miles have been done purely on the battery. I guess if you have a regular short commute with the occasional long trip, a hybird is a decent option if you still lack confidence in the charging network. 

One other nice bonus of driving a hybrid is that they are often quite powerful. The S90 T8 I drive has Polestar optimisation and produces 401 BHP when the battery and petrol work in conjunction. It's an old man's car - cream leather and walnut trim - but it can move when it wants to. Makes motorway cruising and overtaking a very easy experience. 

Despite the above, my next car will be a BEV. I occasionally drive my wife's car which is a Q4 Etron with the smallest battery. It's a joy to drive. A full charge gives her 160 miles real life (208 miles claimed). This range is more than enough for her current situation and she's not had to use a public charger once in the 5 months she's had the car. 

1
 Jamie Wakeham 25 Apr 2022
In reply to fmck:

> " I've got a 40K milkfloat that I cant put the heating on or radio or I wont make it home"

Does he have a 300 mile commute??

 jonny taylor 25 Apr 2022
In reply to fmck:

> The guy next to me in office is constantly ranting about his. " I've got a 40K milkfloat that I cant put the heating on or radio or I wont make it home"

Sounds like they guy next to you in the office is full of crap.

[Just look at the numbers - imagine having a one-bar electric heater blasting in your face nonstop for an hour. That's 1kWh. Simple maths. Driving the car is going to use (ballpark) 20kW, so even having the heat on full blast isn't going to have a huge impact. And heat pumps are much more efficient than an old-style electric heater. As for the radio... he's full of crap.]

Post edited at 12:24
 yorkshireman 25 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> I tested the Skoda Enyaq and REALLY hated it, as it has a "penis extension" type giant bonnet made to look as if it housed a huge ICE that even for me (as a talll man) makes seeing the road right in front of the car extremly difficult.

Maybe its because I'm coming from a car with a big bonnet already but I didn't see that - seemed fine and we drove it in Friday afternoon Grenoble rush hour. Another negative was because it didn't have a front-boot/froot/frunk - I would have hoped that if all that bonnet space wasn't needed then they could have freed some up for storage (we tested the dual motor so less free space at the front I guess).

OP RX-78 25 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

Hi, interesting, we are in France (Lyon) as well, whats the situation with charging points availability?  We are in an 2nd floor apartment, so no home charging. We would mainly want the car for mid to long distance trips to get to crags or mountains (the Alps for example). A few trips to local ikea as well!

 fmck 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

To be fair I think there was probably an issue with it albeit new. He would travel 40 odd miles to work and it would take treble that off the battery. He made me laugh with the ranting.

 yorkshireman 25 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

> Hi, interesting, we are in France (Lyon) as well, whats the situation with charging points availability?  We are in an 2nd floor apartment, so no home charging. We would mainly want the car for mid to long distance trips to get to crags or mountains (the Alps for example). A few trips to local ikea as well!

I'm lucky enough to have a private drive and garage so will be installing a 7kWh wallbox so don't expect to charge much. I'd recommend checking https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ and set it to the car you're thinking of and it will show you how trips work out - you can play with options to regular routes and see what it suggests.

There's a lot of different networks but I ordered the Shell Recharge card after registering on their app and you can pay for charging across different suppliers with a single card (again no first hand knowledge yet - hoping to get the car next month so might have more to report in the summer).

We live 800m higher up than Grenoble in the Vercors, and the App works out the difference in battery needed to come back, and shows going down as practically free due to regenerative breaking so seems pretty accurate.

Most villages  seem to have bornes and Aldi have free chargers. My local Intermarche has free charging too but haven't had chance to test it yet.

Then of course all the main service stations have them. Voreppe services for instance just on the approach to Grenoble from Lyon just installed a rack of fast chargers. I was driving out of Lyon last week and saw a load of chargers at the Aire on the A43 before the airport so they're definitely cropping up more and more.

Finally Tesla have opened up their superchargers to non-Tesla cars which should be a big help.

 Mike Stretford 25 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> I don't like hybrids; you say "best of both worlds" but to my mind they carry around the weight of the ICE and fuel tank, and the weight of the battery pack, inverter/charger and DC motor and seem like a kludge that is rapidly going to fall out of favour as the rise in pure-BEV range continues and as the proliferation of charging infrastructure continues.  You don't get many of the auxiliary cost savings of BEVs (elimination of all vehicle fluid changes, engine air filter, engine oil filter, dramatic reduction in the number of moving parts and failure prone sensors and actuators) either.  It's gets the best and the worst of both worlds.  Mild hybrid is a pretty minimal overhead approach to improving ICE efficiency but a full-on hybrid?  

I do disagree with this 'purist' approach. If I was changing a car now, I'd be looking at the Prius plug in. That isn't based on a dislike of BEVs, just that the Prius PHEV ticks my boxes now. On running costs and servicing, the Prius standard hybrid seems pretty good. Our local taxi drivers love them and published figures seem to agree with them. Most of my journeys are around the 20 miles range, so I'd be driving a lot on electric. The Prius drive seems to work ok on longer journey as long as you cruise around 70, not that I do too many of those but when I do I don't want to be messing around. I see some people on here report all is good with charging, but that isn't what I saw at service stations over Christmas (a busy travel time when I have to travel!)

For many, the 'weight of the ICE and fuel tank' argument just doesn't stack up. EVs do use energy, so the same argument applies to a Tesla with a >200mile battery, most of the time you are carry round a huge weight you don't need (eg 20miles daily mileage).

2
 ianstevens 25 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

> Returning home I did 5.1 yesterday, with bikes on the roof on twisting A roads, if I'd started on battery for the first 40miles the average would be way lower.

> For the next 2 weeks or more I'm local, so will be pure EV, where cost per mile is less than half of petrol. How much diesel will you use in the next 2-3 weeks? 

 

Zero, becasue…

> I wouldn't ditch the Audi until it's life is up, but ev and hybrids aren't the disasters petrol heads claim. 

I moved country, sold it, and now don’t own a car at all 😇

1
 Becky E 25 Apr 2022
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I had a look at this a couple of months ago looking for a replacement for our diesel SUV which is getting really old.

Did you get as far as deciding what you would buy if you had gone electric?

We have a 13 year old diesel Berlingo which could be needing a v expensive repair, so I'm thinking we should be looking at a replacement. The Berlingo is great for swallowing camping gear / climbing gear / bouldering pads / bikes / some combination of the above, and is mainly now used for longer journeys when we need to carry all that clobber.

 Alkis 25 Apr 2022
In reply to fmck:

In my experience, anyone who calls EVs "milkfloats" is not worth taking seriously in the slightest.

In reply to Ben Callard:

What EV do you have? Our friends Tesla Model S gets about a quarter charge overnight on a domestic supply - about 70 - 80 miles I think.

 ExiledScot 25 Apr 2022
In reply to ianstevens:

> Zero, becasue…

> I moved country, sold it, and now don’t own a car at all 😇

 

2
 Tom Valentine 25 Apr 2022
In reply to ExiledScot:

Yes, proper roof rails are also a dying breed

 elsewhere 25 Apr 2022

They must be good, I commute past 4 EVs belonging to a chippy!

 ExiledScot 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> Yes, proper roof rails are also a dying breed

Not cheap either to replace just the feet, mounts and locking mechanism come as two separate kits. 

 Ben Callard 25 Apr 2022
In reply to blackmountainbiker:

I have Kia e-Niro. I'll get around 10 miles range per hour from a three pin. If I'm staying somewhere it's usually plugged in from at least 8pm to 8am, so that's 120 miles, the same again the second night with a bit of driving in the days is fine to get a full charge.   

In reply to Becky E:

> Did you get as far as deciding what you would buy if you had gone electric?

We were looking for second hand and when you got down to it it would have been the Leaf, there's a ton more of them on the market than anything else, it was just a case of which version.

My wife liked the new Leaf, we had a test drive and it was pretty nice. But it was also 18-20k.  I wanted to go for a five or six year old model which had a smaller battery but was much cheaper. 

Putting it off for a year also avoided that argument about money vs car. I'm hoping there will be more models available second hand at reasonable prices in a year or so and also more charging points near us. 

1
 Graeme G 25 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I agree, with a roof box, we can fit 4 kids, a large dog, large bell tent and a week's worth of camping gear.

I can fit all that in my SUV. Saves you the price of a roofrack and box 😉 

1
 Robert Durran 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It's intriguing that these threads are generally all the same - the actual EV owners are mostly positive and all the nay saying comes from those who don't have one!

Maybe because the EV owners are a self-selecting sample - those whose driving patterns are suited to EV charging, so they have bought one.

1
 girlymonkey 25 Apr 2022
In reply to fmck:

> Funny you should say that as I don't, but soon to have a company one that I don't really want. The guy next to me in office is constantly ranting about his. " I've got a 40K milkfloat that I cant put the heating on or radio or I wont make it home"

Even I put the radio on in my teeny weeny baby battery van!! That is properly nonsense!!

On a winters day, for a longer journey, I avoid the heaters and instead use the heated seats and steering wheel, and then huge amount of expensive down clothing which I have invested in over the years!! Not a problem for most journeys though.

 Jim Hamilton 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> It's intriguing that these threads are generally all the same - the actual EV owners are mostly positive and all the nay saying comes from those who don't have one!

 So you don't agree with Hoo's comment above?

'I do think the "Just stop for 30 minutes and have a coffee" thing is a bit dishonest and anyone who buys an EV on the back of it is going to be disappointed. To be honest, stopping to charge on a journey is often a massive PITA. '

2
 yorkshireman 25 Apr 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I agree, with a roof box, we can fit 4 kids, a large dog, large bell tent and a week's worth of camping gear.

You can fit all that in your roof box?

 RobAJones 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Maybe because the EV owners are a self-selecting sample - those whose driving patterns are suited to EV charging, so they have bought one.

More proof that my family is odd. We couldn't convince mum to get one when she replaced her car 18 months ago, she never drives more than  20 miles away from her  home that could easily have a home charger installed. We are retired, have a home charger and our second vehicle would never need charging anywhere else, but haven't got one yet. I've two brothers, with EV's, who do far more longer journeys than me, often 160/220 miles to the charging wasteland that is Cumbria. 

In reply to yorkshireman:

> You can fit all that in your roof box?

It's the new range of Thule Tardis

 Jamie Wakeham 25 Apr 2022
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

>  So you don't agree with Hoo's comment above?

No, I don't, really.  I get that there are those who are happy to do three hours driving, and then a five minute break, and then another three hours... but I have never been able to do that.  My long range strategy has always been max two hours drive, and then a minimum 15 minute break.  My back can't take much longer and neither can my concentration.

With my e-Niro that one stop gets me about 300 miles from home.  Given that I'm starting in Oxford, that is literally anywhere in England or Wales, save for that funny little corner up at Berwick.

So, no, I don't find stopping to charge that big a deal.  It is getting harder, because there are more EVs per rapid these days, but the rapids are growing in number too.  The really crappy ones are getting replaced and upgraded.  You don't wait till you are on digital fumes before you pull in - you make sure you have enough to get to the next charger in case this one is busy or broken (if you have a passenger who can check ZapMap you know this before you even leave the motorway).

And if I do end up having to wait for 20 minutes... I think about the hundred or so visits to a petrol station I no longer make every year.  I'm still ahead, time wise!

OK, if you need to do further than that, or to come straight home again, it's going to be annoying.  Doing LEJoG in my car would entail about three and a half hours of sitting on 50kW rapids.  It's the wrong vehicle if that's what you need to do every day.

2
 Alkis 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I feel it's highly personal. I am going to have to get an EV at some point (probably when Nottingham gets a ULEZ) but for longer journeys I'm going to have to keep using the van for the foreseeable future. The idea of stopping every two or even three hours is not my cut of tea, I go far longer than that without stopping, especially on long euro trips. As an example I run the trip i did a couple of weeks ago (Nottingham to El Chorro) through Tesla's route planner and I would be spending 6 hours charging at super chargers, none of which would be the natural stops where I would be spending the night. With a different EV with slower charging it would easily be a whole extra day of travel. The situation, both technologically and infrastructure-wise, is only going to get better but it cannot be completely dismissed as an important difference.

Post edited at 10:19
 Toerag 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Alkis:

I think what will happen is akin to what CB294 is doing - people will own a 'city' EV for their daily commute and rent something ICE and bigger for their holidays.

 Toerag 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> the Prius standard hybrid seems pretty good. Our local taxi drivers love them

Same here - all the guys who run a car with multiple drivers have gone hybrid.  Multiple drivers mean the vehicle does too many miles / hours a day to recharge effectively, so hybrid offers the best solution.  Our driving is ultra urban (25/35mph limit stop-start driving) so the regen braking makes for great efficiency.

The amount of people who are anti-EV here is ridiculous when you consider the longest possible commute is 9.5 miles each way and most people's is 3 miles.

 The New NickB 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Alkis:

Nottingham to El Chorro is a 1,500 mile journey, even with two people alternating driving, multiple breaks would be recommended. Seems pretty extreme to me. Do you eat as you drive and pee in a bottle?

 Dax H 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Toerag:

> I think what will happen is akin to what CB294 is doing - people will own a 'city' EV for their daily commute and rent something ICE and bigger for their holidays.

This is what I tried to convince the Mrs to do, it's only 2 miles to work (no she can't walk, very steep hill and health problems plus nipping home in the 30 minute lunch break to let the dogs out). An EV would be perfect and would cover most of our weekend travel and hire something for the 2 or 3 times a year we do a long trip.

It was a flat no. 

In reply to Alkis:

Copenhagen to Buis Les Baronnies is 1600 km, and we did it in 22 hours in our 2002 Berlingo. We met a fellow climber who did the same trip spending the same time in a 2019 Tesla model S.

 wintertree 26 Apr 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

> Nottingham to El Chorro is a 1,500 mile journey, even with two people alternating driving, multiple breaks would be recommended. Seems pretty extreme to me. Do you eat as you drive and pee in a bottle?

It’s easy to forget the difference youth made!  Flat out 16 hour drives with a couple of stops to swap driver and water a hedgerow are well and truly in my past now.  Might return in ten years with self driving to give more time for sleep and magic future medicine to restore a youthful bladder.

 Alkis 26 Apr 2022
In reply to The New NickB:

It's two and a half days of driving in the van with just me driving, done it a few times now, the three stops are lunch, dinner and sleep. The issue is where the stops would be doesn't necessarily align with where I would normally stop, it adds loads of little stops that add up to a lot of time. Like I said, this is going to improve anyway, it just should be noted as a difference in the structure of a long drive.

cb294 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Toerag:

Not quite, my BEV is good enough not only for the daily commute, but for anything up to 500 ore even 550 km one way (1 stop for recharging as you can start with 100%, while charging on the road you usually only top up back to 80%).

This will easily cover >95% of all my trips.

If I have to do much longer and quicker trips, in particular if I need to transport stuff, renting a van will be so much more convenient.

However, I cannot see myself doing that more than once or twice a year, and in particular not for my holidays (when I will hopefully not be in a rush), otherwise the point of going electric would be somewhat missed.

CB

 Toerag 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Dax H:

> This is what I tried to convince the Mrs to do, it's only 2 miles to work (no she can't walk, very steep hill and health problems plus nipping home in the 30 minute lunch break to let the dogs out). An EV would be perfect and would cover most of our weekend travel and hire something for the 2 or 3 times a year we do a long trip.

> It was a flat no. 


For what reason?

 jkarran 26 Apr 2022
In reply to blackmountainbiker:

> What EV do you have? Our friends Tesla Model S gets about a quarter charge overnight on a domestic supply - about 70 - 80 miles I think.

Sure, they use roughly 3mi/kWH so a 13Amp 2.5ish kW charger delivers even more roughly 8mi/Hr, maybe a smidge more. My Leaf does about the same, I can put ~75mi on it in an 8hr working day.

They'd get 2+ times that from a 7kW domestic EV charging point. Daily drives of 180+mi are the preserve of very few.

jk

In reply to Toerag:

> The amount of people who are anti-EV here is ridiculous when you consider the longest possible commute is 9.5 miles each way and most people's is 3 miles.

It's also crazy the Highlands isn't electric vehicle heaven and people are still burning coal when there's so much wind power about.  The economics created by regulators in London make it the most expensive electricity bills in the country rather than the locals getting nearly free electricity for EVs and heating when there's an excess of local generation.

15
 Andy DB 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Toerag:

We are likely to work our way towards the one ICE one EV solution. With neither of us being full-time commuters now we can easily get away with one car and one camper van. Both of ours are currently aging diesels, my current thinking is we should replace our diesel SUV ( a bit of a luxury to fit kit, dog and occasionally 4 people) with a BEV which would cover most of our day-to-day driving and upgrade the camper to a newer efficient diesel. The only current stumbling block is the new purchase price of a suitable BEV SUV but expecting this to correct in the next few years with the availability on the second-hand market. My usual car buying tactic is to pick up something 2-3 years old for cash and run it for 8-10 years until it becomes a bit too unreliable. Not yet sure if this will work for a BEV with the higher purchase price and also if the technology will evolve faster and so actually being on a PCP type deal where you can upgrade is better. 

 Tringa 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Andy DB:

This - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00162yr - from Radio 4 is worth a listen. It looks more at the economics of owning an electric car than the environmental aspects but the overall cost is a factor that many have to consider.

Something that has featured in the replies above is the actual v claimed range of EVs. No one would accept a manufacturer of an ICE car who said it get 40mpg without any reference to the speed.

If an EV claims a range of 250 miles I'd like to know at what speed? Unless I have really misunderstood something a car doing 70mph is going to use more energy than a car doing 30mph and this applies to EVs as well as ICEs.

Hydrogen has been mentioned above and while we do not have(as far as I know) any hydrogen filling stations, we do have, albeit a relatively low number, LPG stations.

LPG still produces CO2, but less than petrol,

filling up with LPG takes about the same time as with petrol or diesel,

it gives less mpg than petrol or diesel but it is much cheaper.

I'm not suggesting we should forget about electric vehicles but could LPG be a useful intermediate between petrol/diesel and electric and perhaps provide an environmentally slightly better alternative to petrol/diesel in areas where electric charging is not feasible.

If hydrogen was developed, perhaps the current LPG infrastructure could be adapted to hydrogen. I know this might have problems because the small molecular size of hydrogen means it can leak out of some containers and pipes, but adapting the current LPG storage might be possible.

Dave

5
 ericinbristol 26 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

tl;dr: Get an electric! Any hassles are more than compensated for, especially if you buy one with the biggest battery you can afford/get and can have home charging.

Had a hybrid but catalytic converter thieves cut it out of the underside of the car. Enjoyed having it but what a liability. 

Bought a Nissan Leaf 160kW e+ N-Connecta - the one with the biggest battery they have. Absolutely love it. Nothingy inside styling but it just floats/whooshes along beautifully. And insane acceleration, even on eco mode. We have a 7kW Podpoint home charger on our outside wall, and as we have our own drive that's no problem. Very cheap to run.

Range is almost never a problem. However, we had one stressy occasion where it was low on charge and we suddenly had to be somewhere ASAP. We went to a commercial fast charger and setting up an account and the app took some time: stress. Gave it 20 minutes: more stress. Then we couldn't work out how to get the charge cable to unlock (NO INSTRUCTIONS ON THE DRATTED CHARGER) - aargh, reallly flipping stressed now. Phoned up the company who explained what I needed to do. Still, that's a one-off in setting up that we should have done before. We will be off to Cornwall soon: it's a bit of a drag to research chargers, get multiple apps etc but worth it overall.

Edit: would have loved a Kia e-Niro but it was a lot more expensive than the Leaf and not worth paying that much more.

Post edited at 14:41
 galpinos 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Tringa:

> I'm not suggesting we should forget about electric vehicles but could LPG be a useful intermediate between petrol/diesel and electric and perhaps provide an environmentally slightly better alternative to petrol/diesel in areas where electric charging is not feasible.

We don't need an intermediate step? ICE to BEV is a logical step and we (the UK) can cope with charging requirements even if the uptake of BEVs is faster than expected.

> If hydrogen was developed, perhaps the current LPG infrastructure could be adapted to hydrogen. I know this might have problems because the small molecular size of hydrogen means it can leak out of some containers and pipes, but adapting the current LPG storage might be possible.

Making hydrogen is very energy intensive. If it is not being made using renewables, it's not a very green solution. If it is being made using renewables, those renewables are better used adding electricity to the grid.*

Powering what we can by electricity from a green that will get greener by the day seems a very sensible approach for me. Green Hydrogen** remains a fringe case to allow us decarbonize those use cases that don't lend themselves to electrification (though these are decreasing as technology develops).

I have worked on both a green hydrogen plant and a BEV battery plant in the last 12 months. I know which I think will be the future!

*unless there is an oversupply of renewables, in which case using hyrdogen production as an energy store is an ok, imho, use case but that won't work for domestic cars.

**All other colours of hydrogen are just excuses by O&G companies to burn fossil fuels and pretend they can recover the carbon. 

 Jim Hamilton 26 Apr 2022
In reply to ericinbristol:

> Bought a Nissan Leaf 160kW e+ N-Connecta - the one with the biggest battery they have. Absolutely love it. Nothingy inside styling but it just floats/whooshes along beautifully.

Have you experienced similar to the What Car reviewer?

"Sudden impacts around town – such as potholes and speed bumps – can cause a bit of a jolt that would otherwise be absorbed by the softer Citroën e-C4.

On the motorway things get really quite unsettled, and along undulating roads you’ll experience a lot of head bobbing, which gets annoying after a while." 

 Jamie Wakeham 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Alkis:

> ...(Nottingham to El Chorro) through Tesla's route planner and I would be spending 6 hours charging at super chargers

Yes, I completely agree.  For long, long journeys EVs are still at a disadvantage.  If I had to do 500 miles a day, every day, I'd be in a diesel.  

It's only going to get better, though.  The newest EVs are capable of charging at about 800mph, and Tesla are talking about 1000mph soon.  I won't be surprised if we start to see 4-500 mile batteries becoming standard soon enough, and there's research going on with aluminium ion cells that would be a game changer.  My e-Niro's charge speed of 160mph and range of 250 miles will look quite quaint.

In reply to Andy DB:

> Not yet sure if this will work for a BEV with the higher purchase price and also if the technology will evolve faster

I'm certainly sticking to lease.  If someone does announce a 1000 mile battery that can charge in 20 minutes, then existing EVs will devalue dramatically and I'd rather not be holding those cards.

In reply to Tringa:

>If an EV claims a range of 250 miles I'd like to know at what speed? Unless I have really misunderstood something a car doing 70mph is going to use more energy than a car doing 30mph and this applies to EVs as well as ICEs.

The new WLTP is much more realistic than the old NEDC cycle.  I'd say it's accurate if you are driving reasonably conservatively. 

The speed dependency actually applies much more strongly to EVs than ICEs, because the vast bulk of the work done by an EV is against air resistance.  ICEs spit most of their energy out the tailpipe in hot gases so their efficiency is less dependent on speed.

>could LPG be a useful intermediate

No.  It's just a different fraction of crude oil.  It's still producing almost as much CO2 per mile.  You might as well just get an efficient petrol car.

 ericinbristol 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

No - those criticisms feel rather picky. Maybe the Citroen does better - I wouldn't know as I haven't driven one. 

I live in an area with innumerable speed bumps (fine by me) and they are no problem at all. 

On the motorway I am very happy - whooshes along effortlessly. 

On undulating roads (plenty round here) no head bobbing that I have noticed, as a steady rather than sporty driver.

 jkarran 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I won't be surprised if we start to see 4-500 mile batteries becoming standard soon enough, and there's research going on with aluminium ion cells that would be a game changer.  My e-Niro's charge speed of 160mph and range of 250 miles will look quite quaint.

I'm sure we will see huge ranges in 'high-end' applications, the sort of places you'd today find massive 500bhp V8s which are rarely revved past idle or driven much beyond the school gates and the carwash.

However I suspect the majority of UK/Euro focussed EVs in the next few years will settle around the 200-250mi range mark, maybe even a little lower on average by sales volume. It's plenty for the vast majority of users, it keeps material cost and weight, a range and performance killer down. I'm sure new battery tech will arrive but for now Li-ion batteries are into a phase of slow incremental performance improvement with prices held up by high demand and limited supply. Battery prices look set to hold up in the near-mid term so I think EV competition will shift back away from increasing range to squeezing cost and growing volumes (also gadgets, people love gadgets). Roadside infrastructure will improve in parallel making them ever easier to live with.

> I'm certainly sticking to lease.  If someone does announce a 1000 mile battery that can charge in 20 minutes, then existing EVs will devalue dramatically and I'd rather not be holding those cards.

Unless they'd somehow managed to develop and bring it to market in secret at scale across multiple brands it'd remain a super-premium product for several years, probably forever since it's quite so unnecessary. Used EV prices are far more at the mercy of Li battery prices and the treasury (road-pricing putting them on a more normal tax footing or further fossil-fuel tax cuts) than they are of 'alien tech' batteries suddenly flooding the market.

> In reply to Tringa: could LPG be a useful intermediate

> No.  It's just a different fraction of crude oil.  It's still producing almost as much CO2 per mile.  You might as well just get an efficient petrol car.

I'd bet synthetic hydrocarbons find a niche particularly in long haul aviation but you're right about LPG, it's basically fizzy petrol.

jk

Post edited at 16:27
 jimtitt 26 Apr 2022
In reply to galpinos:

> We don't need an intermediate step? ICE to BEV is a logical step and we (the UK) can cope with charging requirements even if the uptake of BEVs is faster than expected.

> Making hydrogen is very energy intensive. If it is not being made using renewables, it's not a very green solution. If it is being made using renewables, those renewables are better used adding electricity to the grid.*

> Powering what we can by electricity from a green that will get greener by the day seems a very sensible approach for me. Green Hydrogen** remains a fringe case to allow us decarbonize those use cases that don't lend themselves to electrification (though these are decreasing as technology develops).

> I have worked on both a green hydrogen plant and a BEV battery plant in the last 12 months. I know which I think will be the future!

> *unless there is an oversupply of renewables, in which case using hyrdogen production as an energy store is an ok, imho, use case but that won't work for domestic cars.

> **All other colours of hydrogen are just excuses by O&G companies to burn fossil fuels and pretend they can recover the carbon. 

Yes and no, the intermediate step will most likely to be synth-fuels  due to the massive number of existing vehicles which aren't going to dissapear in the next thirty years, not everywhere is the UK.

For developed countries the immediate future is increasing numbers off BEVs and synth fuel gradually moving towards  battery/hydrogen hybrids and the end result hydrogen. The production methods of hydrogen are changing daily, probably faster than battery technology and only a fool would bet against it being the future energy carrier, even the boss of VW who said it's a dead issue ( he's got to sell the cars they make now) had to admit they are working on hyrogen when VW claimed patents on new fuel cell technology.

BEV is the current intermediate step towards something we don't know.

 jkarran 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

> Have you experienced similar to the What Car reviewer?

I have a first gen Leaf, the chassis certainly isn't sophisticated or exciting but there's nothing much wrong with it either. I've had better (for sporty use, ride comfort and both), I've had many worse. I don't recall my parents' second gen Leaf being bad either, in fact it's a pretty good drive.

Electric power steering seems remarkably hard to execute pleasingly, electrical-mechanical brake balancing and electric brake boost likewise. Neither issue is unique to Nissans or EVs.

jk

Post edited at 16:38
 Toerag 26 Apr 2022
In reply to galpinos:

> Making hydrogen is very energy intensive. If it is not being made using renewables, it's not a very green solution. If it is being made using renewables, those renewables are better used adding electricity to the grid.*

I think the middle eastern oil producers are going to go for green hydrogen from solar power and either export it as they do with their gas, or use it to make synfuel and export that as they do their oil.  The problem with green hydrogen is plenty of places are nowhere near the sources of green power to make it.

 Toerag 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

> Have you experienced similar to the What Car reviewer?

Having ridden in a friend's normal Leaf recently - no.  You would also expect an EV with lower centre of gravity and more weight than it's ICE counterparts to have a much more stable ride.

 Dax H 26 Apr 2022
In reply to Toerag:

> For what reason?

Various. 

No.1 she is a woman and they often defy logic. 

No.2 she does like on a whim to jump in the car and head to Whitby, a 162 mile round trip and she doesn't want to mess around with charging on the go.

No.3 we don't have the budget to get a 200 mile plus EV

No.4 she specifically wanted a van derived car with sliding doors to make it easier with the dogs and for things like tip runs and holidays.

No.5 she doesn't like change

We ended up getting a euro 6 Cirtoen Berlingo multispas for 9k, they now do an electric one for 30k with a 150 to 180 mile range. In 10 years time when we change this car the electric will be in our price range. 

 wintertree 26 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> only a fool would bet against it being the future energy carrier, 

My card is marked “fool” then.  Hydrogen has a role but by no means one of being *the* definitive source of stored energy.

 wintertree 26 Apr 2022
In reply to jkarran:

> Electric power steering seems remarkably hard to execute pleasingly, electrical-mechanical brake balancing and electric brake boost likewise. Neither issue is unique to Nissans or EVs.

I have a horrible feeling manufacturers could get it right, but that their focus groups are filled with the PlayStation generation.

The Leaf is one of the nicer EV’s I’ve driven for the electro/mech crossover.  I didn’t appreciate this till I hired an i3 for a week and there was a much more noticeable handover, really jarring.

 jonny taylor 26 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> The Leaf is one of the nicer EV’s I’ve driven for the electro/mech crossover

Still gives me a moment of panic when the brake pedal goes soft for a moment as I press it down for some harder braking...

 Baz P 26 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

Having had two Prius hybrids since 2005 and first one still going strong I have been looking at both another hybrid or electric.

On motorway journeys I looked at available charging points and often they were full so assume that I would have to wait the 30 minutes while someone else was having a cup of coffee. Also, as there are usually 3-400 cars in the car park I assume that come 2030 we will need 3-400 chargers. Anyway as they are much more expensive model for model I really think electric may be a bad investment.

1
In reply to jimtitt:

> BEV is the current intermediate step towards something we don't know.

Once electronics gets into a product it doesn't come out again. It gets better faster than every other technology.

The next step after battery electric vehicle is self driving battery electric vehicle and the step after that is not owning a car at all but summoning one with the characteristics you need with your phone when you need it.

 ExiledScot 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Tringa:

I've listened to several of these comparison programmes and read articles, most have a bias from the outset. 4 months in and pound for pound EV is cheaper in real use not just paper theories, the only extra one off cost is the charging set up.

Cars are odd purchases, folk obsess about needing a big car, then apart from once a year it's never full etc... or they say I need the power to over take, towbars despite having nothing to tow and more pointless excuses. 

Post edited at 05:50
 Si dH 27 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I'm late to this and haven't read the whole thread.

We've been running a full EV (VW ID3) for 3-4 months now, 3000 miles. I still have my Octavia (diesel VRS estate) too but we both use the ID3 for everything we can, including long trips for both work, to visit family and for climbing. The Octavia has only been used when either we both needed a car at the same time or on our trip to Font, because we needed the huge boot for all our stuff. If I went to Font on my own I would take the ID3, with no worries.

My car has a 260 mile WLTP range but to get that you'd have to drive like a granny in summer...and of course if that's one way, then you have to charge to get home anyway. In practice I can make a return trip of 180 miles without charging. For anything longer I charge up somewhere on route. However, range is no longer something to worry much about because there are now enough good charging sites that it hardly matters any more.

Worries about charging on route are basically over stated by almost everyone, including on dedicated EV forums. If you have a home charger, are reasonably comfortable with technology and spend just five minutes planning which chargers to use ahead of each long journey (with the right knowledge) then it's easy. There are increasingly few areas of the UK that I can't get to using entirely charging hubs with 4+ chargers from reliable brands that take contactless*. The only concern I have about charging now is how I can max out my charging speed, which has become a bit nerdy. Last time out I did it perfectly and the car was charged to the level I needed long before I finished my coffee. There are EVs around that charge much faster than the ID3 too. It's worth realising that if you have a 200 mile range and need to do a 250 mile trip, you are only going to need to add 25% to your battery. If you run it low before charging then charging from (eg) 10% to 35% in a modern EV is fast - 10 minutes ish, even less in some.

I haven't mentioned yet that the car is just better too. Every time I get in my Octavia now it feels slow (despite being the VRS) and noisy. It's also more cramped inside and harder to maneuver. The ID3 wins on literally everything except load lugging.

The only real problems with EVs is that there aren't many available second hand yet, and nearly-new prices are ridiculous (we could sell our car tomorrow for a profit.) So if you can only afford to buy used, then an EV is a much more difficult choice with an older car that is less capable. Not having your own driveway also makes things less convenient because you would need to plan a charging stop on some much shorter journeys. But if you are buying a new car anyway, can afford something of the size you need and have a driveway, then in my opinion buying a new EV is now an absolute no brainer.

* Gridserve, Osprey, Instavolt and MFG. For now, outside of Scotland don't use anyone else. Other brands have less reliable chargers and generally require apps. Those four brands now give good coverage and it's getting better. You could use Ionity if you get a cheap deal with your car.

Post edited at 07:12
 jimtitt 27 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> > only a fool would bet against it being the future energy carrier, 

> My card is marked “fool” then.  Hydrogen has a role but by no means one of being *the* definitive source of stored energy.

Carrier = storage?

Who exactly is planning building giant battery ships to move electricity from say Australia to Europe?

cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

Hydrogen powered fuel cells will probably be the future for HGVs, possibly with hydrogen ICEs as a transition.

CB

1
 Si dH 27 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

Hydrogen will be needed for some industrial uses, and it will be needed for tractors and JCBs that have high power usage and would be uneconomical to take to a charger for a few hours. It might be used for lorries or buses but I've seen (on the net, not with my eyes) several EV versions of these being tested recently, so if I had to bet my own money on which technology wins out, I would put it on batteries. For cars, hydrogen is simply not needed and doesn't meet the requirements as well. Moving ito hydrogen power would be a step backwards even from current EVs, so there is simply no motivator to develop the refuelling infrastructure. In contrast a number of commercial organisations are now putting in EV chargers as fast as they can to claim the ground for the demand that is coming.

Post edited at 07:46
 LarahPars5 27 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> Carrier = storage?

> Who exactly is planning building giant battery ships to move electricity from say Australia to Europe?

Why on earth would you need to “move electricity” from Australia to Europe ?

Post edited at 07:57
 wintertree 27 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

> Carrier = storage?

It does if you move it.  You didn’t make it clear what scales you were describing.  

> Who exactly is planning building giant battery ships to move electricity from say Australia to Europe?

Not the people planning on building HVDC cabling from Morocco to Europe, that's for sure…

cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to LarahPars5:

Because Australia has almost unlimited potential for solar energy coupled with political stability, making it an ideal producer of regenerative energy.

That they are far out of the way of everybody else does not stop them from exporting coal, so the only thing they are missing (except stopping electing coal hugging, climate change denying religious idiots) is a means of storing and transporting all that free energy.

The political stability point is crucial. Many African countries would be similarly suited in terms of free area hit by loads of sunshine, but the political problems are obvious and led to the collapse of the most recent European initiative for solar energy production in the Sahara (even though they would have been in range of a subsea cable across the Med...).

Battery ships are obviously a joke, but hydrogen tankers are technologically feasible (if not yet financially competititive).

CB

1
 jimtitt 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Si dH:

You'll notice that cb294 and I have a somewhat different view the many on UKC. That's because we live in a different country where rolling out hydrogen technology is a major project alongside other options. In ten minutes I'll drive past a hydrogen pump at a local petrol station and if I wanted I could go and see delivery trucks on hydrogen as well. That EON has signed up to import 5 million tons of hydrogen from Australia by 2030 might have passed you by as well. That hydrogen becomes dominant in local car use is unlikely but betting on one or the other in the future is a gamble, might have banned cars altogether by then. Or it'll be flying drone taxis, anyones guess

 jonny taylor 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Si dH:

> It might be used for lorries or buses but I've seen (on the net, not with my eyes) several EV versions of these being tested recently

Yes, I saw an EV bus in Glasgow yesterday. I can't quite imagine how that works on an economic basis - must be expensive capital costs, and I'm not sure how the charging works. Perhaps they have surplus buses (more capital cost...) and just swap them out at the depot for a fully charged one...?

cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to jimtitt:

Just to add, one of the main future applications of solar generated hydrogen will be in "green" steel production and other energy intensive industries. Not all fuel currently used goes into transport!

Indeed, switching industrial processes to hydrogen instead of fossil fuels is probably the bigger technological and infrastructure challenge than individual transport.

Fortunately (and surprisingly), even the previous government, whose main policy was to shit on the environment from great height, had already understood the economic necessity of moving industry away from fossil fuels, and there are hydrogen initiatives both at federal and state levels.

CB

 Si dH 27 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

Totally agree hydrogen will be important for some industries if they are to decarbonise (I recognised this above.)

There are many EV drivers who are also environmentalists and tend to come at things from a slightly adversarial stance grounded in wanting to feel part of a protest movement. They tend to be vehemently anti hydrogen just like many environmentalists of long standing tend to be vehemently anti nuclear. I don't have much time for either of those attitudes, but it is now true that hydrogen powered personal cars are a dead duck

cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Si dH:

> .... They tend to be vehemently anti hydrogen just like many environmentalists of long standing tend to be vehemently anti nuclear.

Not over here in Germany, anti nuclear but not anti H2.

> I don't have much time for either of those attitudes, but it is now true that hydrogen powered personal cars are a dead duck

Possibly, but not inevitable. I have a H2 filling station a couple of hundred meters from my work, there is another one in my town, and the network currently looks like electric charging stations did maybe five years ago (several hundreds of publicly accessible H2 filling stations countrywide).

When I was shopping around for my BEV I seriously also considered H2 powered cars, that is until I looked at the price!

Filling up almost like normal would have been nice, but my personal prediction is that H2 fuel cells will probably will remain a niche application for public transport fleets, HGVs, and a fraction of delivery vans that need a longer range than the electric ones that are already now outnumbering ICE versions.

Anywa, BEVs will become more affordable through the economics of scale, better sharing options will become available, and slightly superior tech will always lose in the market against a slightly worse one that has even a little head start!

CB

 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Baz P:

> as there are usually 3-400 cars in the car park I assume that...we will need 3-400 chargers.

Why?  There aren't 3-400 petrol pumps!

A better estimate might be to say that it takes three minutes to complete a petrol fill and purchase, and it takes 30 minutes to complete a typical charge.  So we'd need around ten times as many charges as there are petrol pumps, if every single car is electric.  But increasing EV range might shift that figure.

> ...come 2030

ICEs aren't being banned in 2030, just removed from sale.  There'll be ICEs on our roads for decades to come yet.  

>Anyway as they are much more expensive model for model I really think electric may be a bad investment.

I've mentioned this before on here; I have very good records of car costs as I need to keep details for HMRC.  My last three cars have all been almost identical in terms of cost per mile - a 2012 Skoda Yeti, a 2016 Outlander PHEV and now an e-Niro.  They all come out between 40p and 44p per mile.  Increased purchase (or lease) cost is offset by the near zero fuel bills, zero VED, and reduced service cost.

In reply to jonny taylor:
There was a program on a Scottish tv about those BEV buses last year. They had just recently at the time taken delivery of one of them.

No surplus buses. The plan was for them to work all day limited to routes within their range and were charged overnight. Different to cars, they had 2 onboard charge control units installed into each bus and so were then connected to two chargers at night for their overnight charge. They were therefore capable of having enough charge for the next day timetable.

It will be interesting to see how it all works out over time, but I can see the number of electric buses expanding for town routes. I think iirc they were getting a subsidy at the time to buy and run them to help with the economic side of changing over as it was classed as a trial.

Post edited at 09:58
cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> Why?  There aren't 3-400 petrol pumps!

> A better estimate might be to say that it takes three minutes to complete a petrol fill and purchase, and it takes 30 minutes to complete a typical charge.  So we'd need around ten times as many charges as there are petrol pumps, if every single car is electric.  But increasing EV range might shift that figure.

Not even that ratio, as many BEV owners will be able to charge at home, unlike any of the ICE car drivers (with the exception of certain farmers who run their cars on subsidized agricultural Diesel from their farmyard tank, supposedly....)

CB

 gav 27 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> Not even that ratio, as many BEV owners will be able to charge at home, unlike any of the ICE car drivers (with the exception of certain farmers who run their cars on subsidized agricultural Diesel from their farmyard tank, supposedly....)

No, that doesn't work. If you're stopping at a services in a BEV, you'll almost certainly want to charge. If you're stopping at a services in an ICE car you almost certainly wont (I almost never do - it's way too expensive). Your calculations are ignoring the comparative range of the 2 vehicles - maybe 200 miles vs more like 600? You're not likely to be stopping at a services for a journey you can do on a charge from home.

Post edited at 10:19
1
cb294 27 Apr 2022
In reply to gav:

On motorway services you will indeed need more charge points per car than petrol pumps. However, the required is ratio is not as bad as just dividing charging vs. filling times.

 Jim Hamilton 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Toerag:

> Having ridden in a friend's normal Leaf recently - no.  You would also expect an EV with lower centre of gravity and more weight than it's ICE counterparts to have a much more stable ride.

Yes the review of the normal one seems ok, apparently an issue with the bigger battery version with increased ride height/altered suspension.  I imagine if the battery position is an advantage for ride/handling, the extra weight isn't.   

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

Can someone explain the economics of EV for me?

My likely car of choice would be a Fiat 500.

Brand new 1.2 petrol costs roughly £15,000 and gets around 12 miles per litre. So 12,000 miles is around 1000 litres of fuel. At todays costs that’s say £1,500. So total cost over 3 years £19,500.

Brand new  electric Fiat 500 approx. £31,000. 200 miles range, so that’s roughly 180 charges for 3 years @ 12,000 miles per year.  How much does each charge cost?

I appreciate that I’m talking about brand new cars, but I just cannot see the economic benefits of EV. Perhaps in 5 to 10 years, but not now.

1
 gav 27 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

No; it's worse

1
 elsewhere 27 Apr 2022
In reply to jonny taylor:

Fleet vehicles that return to a depot every night, do the same routes and mileage every day, lots of stop/start for poor mpg and increased wear and tear, rarely exceed 30mph, average speed 15-20mph - urban buses sound ideal for batteries.

1
 wintertree 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Si dH:

> They tend to be vehemently anti hydrogen just like many environmentalists of long standing tend to be vehemently anti nuclear. I don't have much time for either of those attitudes, but it is now true that hydrogen powered personal cars are a dead duck 

But what about nuclear powered busses?  youtube.com/watch?v=bPpBGsFddao&

I think there's energy enough closer to home that the case for solar > hydrogen > inter-continental transport looks pretty fringe long term.  I agree hydrogen can step in to some gaps left by fossils in large scale industrial processes but it's more a means to an end 

If I was going to back some big investment, remote power source I'd look in to the resurgence of serious interest in orbital solar power, which has the advantage of being in daylight 24x7 and not needing boats sailing through seas increasingly militarised by China.  Just needs people to move beyond the flawed idea from Sim City 2000 that it could become an accidental death ray torching vast tracts of cityscape.  With a phase conjugated pilot beam array, it could only ever become an intentional death ray...

 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> On motorway services you will indeed need more charge points per car than petrol pumps. However, the required is ratio is not as bad as just dividing charging vs. filling times.

As a back-of-a-fag-packet estimate, it's a starting point.  It'll be adjusted down because, unlike ICEs, EVs tend to start their journeys at 100%.  It'll be adjusted upwards because EVs tend to have shorter ranges.  The price of fuel will have little effect because both forms of fuel are bloody expensive on motorways - and it's more or less a captive audience (if you need the fuel then you'll buy it regardless).

BTW I wouldn't say that I charge at every single service station stop - probably around half.  If I were driving Oxford -> northern Lakes (which I do a fair bit) then I'd probably have a ten minute break at the two hour mark, when it wouldn't be worth charging (the car will still be at 60% and charging speeds are slower then) and again maybe 3.5 hours in (by now I'm near 20% and it'll charge at its fastest rate).

 yorkshireman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> Can someone explain the economics of EV for me?

Yes but ultimately BEVs are still more expensive. However we decided to get one anyway despite weighing up the costs as it felt like the right thing to do - we were increasingly uncomfortable driving a Land Rover around - we pay extra for ethically produced clothes and food that have less impact on the environment, why not pay more for a private motor vehicle that has less impact (assuming you're lucky enough to be in a position to)?

> I appreciate that I’m talking about brand new cars, but I just cannot see the economic benefits of EV. Perhaps in 5 to 10 years, but not now.

Fossil fuels are only going to be more expensive and rightly so. For 100 years we've been driving our cars burning a substance for which nobody benefiting from the vehicle has been paying for the negative externalities (noise, air quality, climate change, lead in the general population) and if we're going to do something serious about combatting climate change then this has to change. The current fuel price shock has shown that consumers will change their behaviour if the incentives are right (look at the thread on eking out more MPG) and Tesla have recently been the best selling car (not BEV, any car) in Europe due to a combination of changing attitudes to economics and environmental concerns.

BEVs aren't perfect but as somebody mentioned upthread we've hit the sweetspot of range/affordability/availability where it's good enough for a critical mass of consumers. We're past the early adopter stage and moving into mass consumption so the economics should only increase especially after we get over the current materials shortage.

1
 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

Well, the most expensive Fiat 500 EV is £31k... you can get one for as little as £21k new.  But assuming you want the larger battery, then that can be had for about £26k.  So there's an £11k difference in purchase price.

12,000 miles at 50mpg is 1090L, so at £1.50/L that's about £1600/year on fuel.

12,000 miles at about 4 miles / kWh is 3000kWh.  If you do the bulk of your charging overnight on an EV tariff like Octopus (currently 5p/kWh but going up to 7p/kWh soon) then that's £210 per year.  Sometimes you will need to charge at peak rates, and sometimes you will need to use expensive motorway chargers, so let's call it £300/year.  

You're saving £170/year in VED.  Servicing will be cheaper (there's not much to do - no oil changes, and you'll almost never need to change discs or pads) so conservatively say you save £150/year on that cost.

Overall your ongoing cost of motoring will be around £1600 cheaper each year, and break-even will come at about 6.5 years ownership.  If you could make do with the £21k shorter range model then it would be less than four years.

That's taking no account of depreciation of either model.

 Jim Hamilton 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> Can someone explain the economics of EV for me?

Company cars can skew the economics - I think you'd pay around £2000 extra tax/year on the  petrol version if higher rate tax.    

 Si dH 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I think cost parity or otherwise between petrol and EV depends very much on how much account you take for spec. Most EVs are relatively highly specced and have a lot of power so they do not compare well with base petrol models of equivalent ICE cars. If I compare my ID3 to a Golf, the spec and performance are similar ish to a close to top spec performance model of a Golf (eg GTI or GTD) and the new price is also fairly similar. If you compare it to a base spec Golf with a small engine then there's quite a difference in price but you are getting a very different car.

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks. Hadn’t looked at pricing across the full range (lazy Googling).

Having never kept a car for much more than 3 years,  the balance isn’t quite there yet. But maybe in the future.

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

But do they have ‘less impact’? Where’s all the electricity coming from? Nuclear? I don’t see that as a desirable option. 

7
 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> But do they have ‘less impact’?

Absolutely.  An EV already has substantially lower CO2 emissions per mile than an equivalent ICE, and that's only getting better as the UK grid decarbonises.

It's worth noting that a litre of petrol is about 10kWh of energy.  A car with a 50L tank might have a range twice as great as my 64kWh e-Niro, but it's burning almost 500kWh of petrol to achieve it!  ICE efficiency is rubbish, and they only seem as good as they do because petrol is very very energy dense.

>Where’s all the electricity coming from? Nuclear? I don’t see that as a desirable option. 

There's loads of overnight capacity in the grid, and that's when EVs tend to do the bulk of their charging.  Nuclear is part of the solution but wind and solar are increasingly important.  My EV mostly charges off my PV array.

 jonny taylor 27 Apr 2022
In reply to elsewhere:

I absolutely agree, it's just that I think they would need an infeasibly enormous battery if they are to make it from 5am to 11pm (or whatever) without a recharge.

 jonny taylor 27 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> Just needs people to move beyond the flawed idea from Sim City 2000 that it could become an accidental death ray torching vast tracts of cityscape.  With a phase conjugated pilot beam array, it could only ever become an intentional death ray...

You've seen Real Genius enough times to know how that ends

 Paul Hy 27 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

I personally wont ever buy an all Elect for one reason only; get stuck in a traffic jam in winter and you could die from hyperthermia as batteries will flatten in no time at all.   Keeping a sleeping bag(s) in the car at all times might be the solution though.  

14
 jimtitt 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeman

> It's worth noting that a litre of petrol is about 10kWh of energy.  A car with a 50L tank might have a range twice as great as my 64kWh e-Niro, but it's burning almost 500kWh of petrol to achieve it!  ICE efficiency is rubbish, and they only seem as good as they do because petrol is very very energy dense.

 My EV mostly charges off my PV array.

And what is the efficiency of your PV array and charging system?

 Alkis 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Paul Hy:

You realise that heating in an EV is not typically resistive... right? And even if you have opted to not have a heat pump, the power consumption of a resistive one would not flatten the battery "in no time at all", do the maths.

Post edited at 14:44
 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> There's loads of overnight capacity in the grid, and that's when EVs tend to do the bulk of their charging.  Nuclear is part of the solution but wind and solar are increasingly important.  My EV mostly charges off my PV array.

Are you saying we burn loads of stuff overnight to produce electricity we don’t use? Is that what’s meant by extra capacity?

1
 yorkshireman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> Are you saying we burn loads of stuff overnight to produce electricity we don’t use? Is that what’s meant by extra capacity?

I'm in the French Alps and most of my energy is nuclear (so overnight it can't be turned down so storing in a car is a great use of it) or hydroelectric. Wind still blows at night but demand is lower so might be wasted if not stored in cars. 

I'm considering getting solar panels and a Powerwall battery so I can basically charge up for free with stored solar. If you've got a driveway/garage and your own roof then this microgeneration approach is pretty feasible for many. 

People seem to think petrol appears in forecourts magically. Before we start talking about tailpipe pollution the energy taken to extract oil, transport it, refine it into petrol and transport it again is huge. Then loads of that energy is wasted by the ICE. 

Electricity isn't perfect but surely it's our least worst option at the moment. 

 galpinos 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

Nuclear power stations are notoriously hard to turn off, hence they pump out electricity regardless. Think of this as the base load.

Gas is quicker to respond, but though it's an area that has seen much improvement, renewables are less predictable so sometimes "we" do overproduce.

 yorkshireman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Paul Hy:

> I personally wont ever buy an all Elect for one reason only; get stuck in a traffic jam in winter and you could die from hyperthermia as batteries will flatten in no time at all.   Keeping a sleeping bag(s) in the car at all times might be the solution though.  

This is actually quite funny and I assume it was meant to be. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jan/07/facebook-posts/theres-no-...

 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> Are you saying we burn loads of stuff overnight to produce electricity we don’t use?

We're not quite that dumb (although much of our energy policy does make me want to bang my head against a wall).  No, it means that we have lots of spare generating capacity that's switched off at night that could easily be switched on if the EV load goes up. 

It's better to burn gas in a CCGT than to burn petrol in an ICE.  However it's much better again to use spare nuclear output, or wind, or hydro - and as Yorkshireman says, if we do have spare low-carbon energy then a very good idea would be to put it into an EV battery.

Of course if we had any bloody sense at all then we'd have much more of that wind, hydro (and solar) capacity ready to go.  And probably nuclear as well... for all it's problems, it's still better than burning fossil fuels.

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

Ta. It’s an interesting time to live. I’m not averse to going EV, I just want to make sure when I do, it’s for well informed reasons. As opposed to misplaced ideology.

I’m also of the generation that one dreamt of one day they might own a V12. Whilst that won’t happen, there’s some gorgeously fast affordable  cars out there now. Would be a shame to give up on the dream……

 galpinos 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> Ta. It’s an interesting time to live. I’m not averse to going EV, I just want to make sure when I do, it’s for well informed reasons. As opposed to misplaced ideology.

What is the misplaced ideology?

 Neil Williams 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

Unless you particularly like rowing a gearbox, EVs can offer spectacular performance.

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to galpinos:

The sense of pressure being created about going electric. Call it ‘fashion’ if you like. The idea that just because it doesn’t use petrol it won’t pollute. EV will still need resources to build and power to run. There will still be an impact. The change to EV Will not come at zero cost to the environment.

4
 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

> This is actually quite funny and I assume it was meant to be. 

I fear he was being serious.  

Paul, if it helps: the heat pump in my e-Niro draws about a kW at full blast.  At more normal levels it's around 400W.  On my full 64kWh battery it'll keep me from freezing for around 160 hours... by which time everyone in their ICEs will be long dead from CO poisoning!

 Jamie Wakeham 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Graeme G:

> The change to EV Will not come at zero cost to the environment.

No, of course not.  But it is already a significant saving over ICE, and only getting better.

I hear you on the desire for that bonkers V12... I still miss the heavily modded two-seater MG of my youth!  But the e-Niro is the quickest car I've ever driven.  Off the mark it is just ridiculous; quicker over 400 yards than a friend's Boxster.

 Graeme G 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Yeah. But does it go ‘vroom’ very loudly?

Sad I know, but if it’s what you grew up with……

 yorkshireman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Unless you particularly like rowing a gearbox, EVs can offer spectacular performance.

The car I have on order is a sensible family electric SUV with great range and practical options/features. The fact that it can do sub 5s 0-60 will take some getting used to but am sure will be fun. 

In reply to Graeme G:

> I’m also of the generation that one dreamt of one day they might own a V12. Whilst that won’t happen, there’s some gorgeously fast affordable cars out there now. Would be a shame to give up on the dream…

I think dreaming about something and doing it despite all the evidence against it to the contrary is a better definition of ideology than a lot of what you're seeing on here. 

Besides, people still ride horses and penny farthings so I don't think you have to give up on your dream. You just might not be able to take it into cities or even afford to go very far but if you treat it like a quaint hobby then I'm sure you will still be able to do that within your lifetime. 

 Neil Williams 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I've been a passenger in one and I think it's a brilliant car, just a shame I don't fit the driving seat or I'd be getting one ordered.

I do fit in the MG5, though, so that's possibly on the agenda.  Yes, China etc, but all EVs will have Chinese components so I'm not sure the country behind the badge is all that significant.

Post edited at 16:07
 planetmarshall 27 Apr 2022
In reply to RX-78:

> Currently we are car free but looking at getting a car in the near future. I would go for all electric but my wife will not as she thinks the charging network is still too under developed.

Bear in mind if you buy a new EV now it's likely you won't take delivery for about 9-12 months. I've been given a date of Feb 2023 for my Audi Q4 I ordered in March.

 ExiledScot 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Paul Hy:

> I personally wont ever buy an all Elect for one reason only; get stuck in a traffic jam in winter and you could die from hyperthermia as batteries will flatten in no time at all.   Keeping a sleeping bag(s) in the car at all times might be the solution though.  

You don't have an ev do you? I believe norway sells the highest proportions EVs but i think in car hypothermia is extremely rare. 

cb294 28 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

> The car I have on order is a sensible family electric SUV with great range and practical options/features. The fact that it can do sub 5s 0-60 will take some getting used to but am sure will be fun. 

Indeed. Overtaking on country roads with my Ioniq 5 (with the small engine) reminds me of my motorbike times, without even switching to "sport" mode.

 yorkshireman 28 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> Indeed. Overtaking on country roads with my Ioniq 5 (with the small engine) reminds me of my motorbike times, without even switching to "sport" mode.

I really liked the Ioniq 5 (it's pretty marmite I think in terms of styling) and it was our front runner for ages but had a long lead time and wasn't available with a vegan interior. 

Somebody on here complained about BEVs in cold weather but I watched a YouTube video of a guy driving an Ioniq 5 on a 4000km road trip through a Canadian winter with no problems (we need a car that can handle alpine winters so I did a lot of research ). 

 planetmarshall 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Paul Hy:

> I personally wont ever buy an all Elect for one reason only; get stuck in a traffic jam in winter and you could die from hyperthermia as batteries will flatten in no time at all.

That is not what happens. Batteries do not go flat in cold weather - as they work via a chemical reaction, the reaction is less efficient in cold weather (for example a 'flat' camera battery in Winter can usually be returned to life by warming it up)

cb294 28 Apr 2022
In reply to yorkshireman:

It is not marmite, it is ugly as hell, but why would I care. I sit inside and look out at other people's cars, so I don't have to suffer from its ugliness!

More seriously, it is an embarassing SUV, a type of car I would never though of buying normally, but that is largely due to the battery pack below the floor. If you combine that with sufficent head room you automatically end up with something that looks like a SUV.

I also tried the Kia EV6, essentially the same car on the bottom but with an estate body on top, but again due to the underfloor batteries it is so low I can barely look out of the side windows that feel almost slit like, and I had to bend my neck to look out of the front window.

So, and SUV it is...

CB

 Jamie Wakeham 28 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> If you combine that with sufficent head room you automatically end up with something that looks like a SUV.

Teslas manage to combine OK headroom with their battery packs, so it is possible.  But yes, I'm sure the easiest compromise is something SUV shaped, and it's an enormously popular shape, so inevitably things are going to head that way.

My slightly creaky neck greatly prefers a very upright driving position - the most comfortable thing in the world for me is a transit van!  Despite not being too high, the Niro is a good compromise for me.

cb294 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Yes the e-Niro was my second choice (and my wife's favourite), but the Ioniq5 charges with twice the speed due to its 800V internal electrics. This, and that I could get one not too overspecced from the forecourt of my local dealer without having to wait for months eventually made the difference.

CB

 ericinbristol 28 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

Same with my Leaf. Even in eco mode, the acceleration is bonkers. And sport mode has so much acceleration I don't feel in control and don't use it

Post edited at 09:30
 Jamie Wakeham 28 Apr 2022
In reply to cb294:

> ...the Ioniq5 charges with twice the speed due to its 800V internal electrics.

Bit jealous of that.  Is it twice as quick across the whole range, or just the peak speed?

I get 48kW if I'm below 50% SoC, then 30kW from 50% to 80%, and then it gets slow.  It's a tad annoying if a natural stop occurs when I am at 50% or so, because I'm tempted to drive on to get the SoC lower for faster charging!

I have 2.5 years left on the Niro; very much hope the next car will have 800V electrics - and bidirectionality so it can power the house overnight... I'm damned if I'm going to spend thousands on a 13kWh Tesla PowerWall when I have a 64kWh battery sitting idle on my driveway!

 jkarran 28 Apr 2022
In reply to Paul Hy:

> I personally wont ever buy an all Elect for one reason only; get stuck in a traffic jam in winter and you could die from hyperthermia as batteries will flatten in no time at all.   Keeping a sleeping bag(s) in the car at all times might be the solution though.  

Seriously or am I missing the joke?

A heated seat on high power is what, maybe 50Watts? 5kWh, only 15 miles of potential range (about the point the Leaf starts to warn the batter is getting low) and a tiny fraction of bigger more modern batteries would keep you pretty toasty let alone alive for 3 whole days!

I wouldn't fancy taking my chances with 3days breathing the fumes of an idling ICV let alone dozens of them stuck in a queue!

jk

 jkarran 28 Apr 2022
In reply to wintertree:

> I have a horrible feeling manufacturers could get it right, but that their focus groups are filled with the PlayStation generation.

McLaren seem to think electric PAS becomes impossible as you approach the limits of performance due to the inertia and backlash inherent in a practical electrical system. I'm slightly sceptical of that but there's a lot of low hanging fruit to go after with electric PAS before you start worrying about high frequency 'feel' from a track. Just fine tuning the nasty fidgety snatching sensation caused by the wide deadband around zero steering-wheel torque and keeping assistance down at town speeds would be a great start!

> The Leaf is one of the nicer EV’s I’ve driven for the electro/mech crossover.  I didn’t appreciate this till I hired an i3 for a week and there was a much more noticeable handover, really jarring.

I had a little shopping-car hire this weekend (Opal Karl?), same horribly fidgety overly light steering (plus a button to make it worse!) and despite the presumably vacuum assisted brakes there was some mad electric brake hold/assist thing going on on top of that (presumably anti-rollback?) which made low speed maneuvering far harder than necessary for a simple brain tuned to manipulate simple machines. I had to go back to routinely using the handbrake rather than heel and toe at lights, I'd roll off the brake onto the throttle and it'd just bog down with the brakes held on for a couple of seconds before suddenly freeing them to lurch away or roll back, horrible useless gadgets!

jk

Post edited at 10:49

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