https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/immigration/news/105979/p...
These people are dangerous. Taking a stance that basically boils down to "we don't have systems? Who cares, keep the foreigners out" is treating people's lives with fascist indifference. How have these people been allowed into power? Where is the bottom?
I have started to think that maybe they fully expect to lose power around Brexit date and want to snatch up as many populist votes as they can in the aftermath.
> I have started to think that maybe they fully expect to lose power around Brexit date and want to snatch up as many populist votes as they can in the aftermath.
You think, huh? What gave them away?
jcm
Sometimes I try not to be too cynical. I guess when it comes to this lot I have to be as cynical as humanly possible.
Start making your marching banners!? I could see millions involved in peaceful protest over this. Goodness knows how she thinks the workplaces of millions of EU workers in the UK will cope.The consequencies for Brits in the EU could also be catastrophic.
One of the Reminer criticisms of Brexit has been that the UK always had the right to restrict free movement, but has simply not enacted it.
Then the moment they actually indicate a willingness to put such a restriction in place (admittedly from outside the confines of the EU), they are apparently "fascist".
Right there you have an underlying reason why people disregard the arguments for Remain. There was never any real chance of changing the status quo and its open-borders stance without being labelled a fascist.
I think you'll also find they aren't keeping foreigners out. Foreigners were coming to the UK long before the EU's freedom of movement rules. Foreigners manage to travel all over the world and outside of the EU.
I remember people telling us we were overreacting when we were worrying about this a couple of years ago, with my wife trying to sort UK citizenship quickly - people saying there was no way the UK would threaten EU citizens already living and working here, it'd all be fine, the UK wasn't that kind of country...
I'm really glad we ignored them.
I think you may be surprised at what Pritto Patel is prepared to try. Not long before we find out though, eh?
The one thing to look forward to at the moment is the sight of Macron and Merkel jointly puncturing Windbag Johnson, and listening to the farting noises he makes as he violently deflates....
I think the problem, certainly the problem for me, is not that immigration rules change but that they change in such a chaotic and damaging manner.
Yep. It's a disgrace that there are several hundred thousand people - plus all their families - living here and elsewhere in the EEA, who simply don't know what their status is going to be.
If the rules are made clear in advance people can at least plan their lives around them; having them changed on the fly, without even making it clear what they're going to be, is disgusting.
Ah, I KNEW you’d come out of the woodwork and miss the point as per usual. The issue is not ending freedom of movement. They are proposing ending it without a replacement visa system in place and without any way of validating who has ILTR at the border. They are dismissing concerns about this as if they don’t matter. That is the fascist part.
Remember when the conservatives were trying pragmatic party that cared about details?
Exactly... still, government sympathisers like Pan Ron can't resist taking a potshot at liberals irrespective of the massive potential suffering that such unplanned change can cause. What she is doing is plain wrong and very dangerous. Like most centrist brits I don't see Patel as anything like a fascist although she is significantly to the right in her party. I do think she shouldn't be an MP anymore for what she did when she was sacked and I think its shameful such a person is in government, let alone running the Home Office. She could of course have proved us critics all wrong by playing fair in policy like this.
In a scale of evil from 1 to a 10 (like Vodemort) the tory peer Baroness Warsi gave Patel 12 on a comedy show last week. Less comedic by the day.
I think you're missing the point in your haste to bang your usual drum. It's not simply about restricting movement but how you do it. This initiative looks like another bit of populist rhetoric without any substance. I imagine it will become the usual shambles.
It's the political silly season. When politicians throw out all sorts of ideas as 'proposals' they then monitor the press, social media and survey results. There have been loads; All women cabinets, retire at 75, stamp duty on house sales, Corbyn as a caretaker ...
I would say trump buying Greenland but we all know he was for real.
Hate is a saleable commodity these days.
That's an easy generalisation often being used to provide poor cover for this (and other) complex and serious situation for millions of our legal EU workers, families, neighbours and climbing partners. How many personal stories does it take from UKC posters' personal family experiences of the Home Office hostile environment, that's clearly about to get even more hostile, before we all wake up to the reality of how bad this could be. Calling out such behaviour from our government isn't hate, it's democratic protest. I certainly don't hate her but it's telling that Warsi said what she did as one of her party colleagues.
> It's the political silly season. When politicians throw out all sorts of ideas as 'proposals' they then monitor the press, social media and survey results. There have been loads; All women cabinets, retire at 75, stamp duty on house sales, Corbyn as a caretaker ...
> I would say trump buying Greenland but we all know he was for real.
Corbyn as a caretaker sounds like a totally sensible suggestion.
I'd buy a ticket to watch you explain this is just silly season to Alkis face to face. I know Brits who cancelled planned holidays due to uncertainty about pet passports, thats inconvenience.. for EU citizens living and working in the UK this is a truly scary time. I know quite a few who have already left as the impact on their family lives was no longer worth the positives of being here.
> Corbyn as a caretaker sounds like a totally sensible suggestion.
Do you think he actually knows how to use a broom ?
Or do any real work for that matter ?
> Ah, I KNEW you’d come out of the woodwork and miss the point as per usual.
It's a little difficult to get your point when you include "fascist" in your claim, leaving it up to the reader to figure out where the separation between truth and overblown accusation lies in your post.
The system can be as simple as now getting a visa stamp at the border, we don't know yet. These sorts of over-reactions are why we have the "project fear" accusations - I used to hate it when Brexiteers made that claim but these days I'm fully sympathetic. Yesterday it's empty shelves, today its no one through the gates, tomorrow I expect warnings that malaria will be making a comeback.
> The system can be as simple as now getting a visa stamp at the border, we don't know yet. These sorts of over-reactions are why we have the "project fear" accusations
Can you genuinely not see how terrifying "we don't know yet" is for people whose family lives and careers depend on it?
Yeah, I can get that. I've been through it previously. Though "terrifying" is a term I would reserve for bombs raining down, house fires, and being assaulted in the street. Unclear regulations aren't, in my books, terrifying.
Then again, the people I work with from the EU have all jumped through the various hoops to ensure their status here is secure - the same kind of hoops required in most other countries. I got residency myself many years ago and really can't understand why anyone who calls the UK "home" wouldn't do the same.
I get that things have been extraordinarily laissez faire in the UK previously, and that this is likely to change (though also equally possible nothing changes). But the outrage seems typically overblown.
That reads to me as "I don't really care, it's their own fault anyway, it needs done and it might be fine anyway, you're overreacting".
I've heard that all before.
Sorry, I totally agree. I meant people make money now from propagating hate. Patel is one of those nasty people that is getting a lucrative political career out of it.
> These sorts of over-reactions are why we have the "project fear" accusations - I used to hate it when Brexiteers made that claim but these days I'm fully sympathetic. Yesterday it's empty shelves, today its no one through the gates, tomorrow I expect warnings that malaria will be making a comeback.
You're not keeping up. The Government's own risk assessment shows that the Project Fear jibe is dead:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/18/brexit-leaked-papers-predi...
(Although that hasn't stopped a government energy minister dismissing the government's own report as 'Project Fear':
https://www.businessinsider.com/kwasi-kwarteng-dismisses-yellowhammer-brexi... )
I look at risk-assessments almost daily and the one's I signed off last week will certainly have included death, hijacking and terrorism amongst other outcomes. If the Guardian/Remain was to get wind of them they would no doubt be taken as proof we should wind up our operation immediately as our institution is clearly doomed.
Taking worst-case scenarios and presenting them as inevitable, or even likely, is idiotic and the very definition of Project Fear.
This is a government report we're talking about. It's not presenting worst case scenarios, even though Gove has claimed that.
I just came back from a week hiking away from all this and heard about this.
My wife is German, both my kids were born in the UK with UK citizen father so are UK citizens. But my wife got them German passports which they are also entitled to and it never mattered because we are all EU citizens.
Now this total c*nt makes an arbitrary decision and they basically can't take the risk of leaving the country until they get poxy blue passports because they might not get back in.
They sold Brexit to the gammons with scare stories about Syrian immigrants and Turkey getting into the EU and swamping the country with muslim immigrants. What actually happens is a Tory home secretary outsources immigration processing to an originally Indian company now registered in Dubai and we've got a sweatshop in Dubai or India working for the Home Office whose job is to hassle Europeans.
Oh, and the Chinese Government own a chunk of this outsourcing organisation which has f*ck knows how much personal data on millions of people - because the Home Office asks for just about every possible thing, not only about the person seeking leave to remain but also their UK citizen family members. It's a safe bet that multiple foreign intelligence services will be accessing all the personal data the Home Office is collecting when they treat it like this rather than keeping it in secure facilities within the UK where all the staff are UK citizens with security clearances.
It really is time for the Brexiteers to just f*ck off. It's beyond a joke.
> Unclear regulations aren't, in my books, terrifying.
You have not dealt with the home office much, have you?
> Then again, the people I work with from the EU have all jumped through the various hoops to ensure their status here is secure - the same kind of hoops required in most other countries.
In most other countries the hoops are clear and easy to find. The home office regulations on EU permanent residency was no such thing, plus the goal posts kept shifting. As an example Did You Know (TM) that as an EU PhD student with a full scholarship and everything, you are supposed to have private health insurance? No? Well, neither did anyone else that wasn’t on the Home Office bulletin about such stuff, because I am not aware of a single EU PhD student who was aware of that until the Brexit vote. Bang, here’s a three year gap in what would be a continuous legal stay in the UK, courtesy of Theresa May’s leadership at the home office.
You are correct, Britain was too lax about this stuff. The problem is that the Home Office decided some time ago to start applying rules as if they were not being lax until that point, with retroactive effect.
Also, just to clarify, I do in fact have ILR under the settlement scheme. This announcement is scary because it does not outline a system under which that is worth a damn.
Get bent. This is now the most likely outcome and it’s my life we’re talking about.
> I look at risk-assessments almost daily and the one's I signed off last week will certainly have included death, hijacking and terrorism amongst other outcomes. If the Guardian/Remain was to get wind of them they would no doubt be taken as proof we should wind up our operation immediately as our institution is clearly doomed.
> Taking worst-case scenarios and presenting them as inevitable, or even likely, is idiotic and the very definition of Project Fear.
Ok, so could you explain or list the control measures that the government have put in place to prevent the worst case scenarios from happening?...
Seems like a case of "I'm all right Jack" to me. Presumably Priti Patel's family immigrated here at some point but we can't Allow anymore in.
Very similar to the banner on the very new house as I passed through a beautiful village in the dales saying "say no to housing development)
In reply to Dax H:
> Very similar to the banner on the very new house as I passed through a beautiful village in the dales saying "say no to housing development" . . . )
I have a friend who used to work for a conservation body on the south fork of Long Island in NY which is under continuous pressure from rich people wanting weekend and summer retreats out of the city.
He had a huge poster on his office wall proclaiming "The definition of a developer: Someone who would like to build a cabin in the woods. The definition of a conservationist: Someone who already has a cabin in the woods".
I was a little surprised at both his openness and bluntness as his organisation relied on donations from caring local 'cabin' owners, but there you go.
There are no “most likely scenarios”. The no deal Brexit cannot work for either the UK or the EU in a form where all travel across borders completely stops. This is a stick that is being waved in a high stakes game of poker.
The hysteria that people who should know better, are whipping up is causing more distress than is good for anyone.
The almost dialy onslaught of Brexit threads here and news stories in the media is nothing more than pure conjecture.
I’m sure some people have visions of Conservative party members dressed in black marching down streets, checking passports and throwing people into the backs of lorries.
It’s really not helpful to anyone.
it's not helpful but conjecture is about the best "information" we have
> You have not dealt with the home office much, have you?
I've dealt with them a lot; during my own application, my wife's, and in my work. They are not easy to deal with. But that is what I expect of all immigration-related issues. I view them as a test, where if my first reaction is "ahh stuff it, too much hard work" then I'm probably not all that committed to the country I'm in and probably not in a position to whinge about it.
> In most other countries the hoops are clear and easy to find.
Really? In an ideal world that would be the case. In the countries I have lived in recently the arrangements were anything but; entire days spent at immigration offices, lost paperwork, unclear guidance, etc etc. That is the norm in much of the world. Its crap. Its annoying. Its not the end of the world.
We're at the opening stage of a pronouncement. One which, if previous experience is anything to go by, will never be enacted anyway. But if it is, the process will become clearer. Its a point scoring move being milked by both sides of the Brexit debate for political gain.
I work with 6 EU nationals; teachers who are highly educated, highly skilled and very good at their jobs. How dare the government (or the leave-voting gutter scum cheering them on) make them worried about their future here, worried that if they go to see their families that they won’t get back in, and worried that they’ll potentially lose their jobs.
I'll push their Brexitwagen for you
> Johnson has my permission to drive to Beachy Head with his cabinet all hold hands and jump off!
I'm assured there will be no backstop and no hard border with Ireland. So people can simply walk in and out or drive in and out with no questions asked. Or bus in presumably
If there is no hard border with Ireland then the problem of crossing borders when all movement stops simply does not exist. Yay!
It's not conjecture. It's affected people for three years now and is getting worse. It's having serious, long-lasting effects on people's lives. Pretending it's all some sort of game to be ignored without real-world consequences, just highlights your ignorance.
Could we revoke her citizenship as she seems to have brought some undesirable ideas from her family's part of the world, not very much in keeping with modern Britain
I how many of those countries was there literally zero information about what you need to do as the citizen class you are for more or less an entire decade, with all information being targeted at overseas citizens and with most questions answered with “you don’t need to do anything until you want to get citizenship”, only for that to change underneath your feet at the time when you were to apply for said citizenship?
Of course it’s affecting people. But it’s conjecture. It’s the conjecture that’s affecting people as unless you have some unique insight and a crystal ball as to what exactly is going to happen in the next couple of months, no one has a clue.
> as to what exactly is going to happen in the next couple of months, no one has a clue.
The fact that you think this is reassuring is a problem.
> no one has a clue.
And there you have it. After 3 years of planning, negotiating, arguing etc no one has a clue. And that includes the government. And you wonder why people are getting excited about things?
Ok, for one second imagine running a business by the rules these people seem to be operating under. How long do you think it would take before you are removed by the board or the company goes under?
As a rule I don't post on political threads but your (and pan rons) callousness on this astounds me. this is really f*cking up peoples lives as is evidenced by numerous examples in this thread, yeah it might never happen, but then again the government are saying it will. I cant get over how you don't see how terrifying this is for many EU citizens in the UK.
Regardless off your views on Brexit how you can see this an anything other than disgraceful is beyond me.
According to the article linked:
A source told The Telegraph that officials have been dispatched to Singapore to "understand how a well functioning immigration IT system is developed", including how to "count people in and out the country".
Given that we are less than 100 days from the proposed date of departure, how likely do you think it is that the Home Office will be able to formulate an appropriate policy and take the required measures to implement that policy on November 1?
And, given that we have had a government that has until very recently had an immigration target of less than 100000, do you find it remotely surprising that they are only now considering a system that will allow the Border Force to "count people in and out the country"?
Please include in your answer some useful comment which might propose how the Home Office might go from being as utterly inept as it has proved itself over the past decades, to being the very model of efficiency and competence.
No. The fact that you think that I think it’s reassuring is the problem. Typical of major assumptions being made by one group of people against about another group of people.
> Ok, for one second imagine running a business by the rules these people seem to be operating under. How long do you think it would take before you are removed by the board or the company goes under?
I still can't understand how the government is allowed to be on holiday at the moment. If I was in charge of a project with a deadline of 31st October, and currently had no idea how I was going to deliver that project (or indeed what the project actually is) I'm damn sure me or my team wouldn't be on holiday right now!
What callousness?
Every day for 3 years we’ve had nothing but arguing in the media and here.
Its absolutely pointless argument as well. No one with any solutions, everyone just arguing about who’s the most wrong.
You probably need to look at the effect that the arguing has on these people rather than continue to argue about something that might or might not happen.
How likely do you think a no deal scenario is?
Your lack of empathy is breathtaking.
I really am interested to see which elements of Singapore's immigration policies and systems the government adopts, seeing as nearly half of their population is foreign-born. Singapore's IT system is designed to smooth the immigration process because the country depends extensively on immigrants. Nor does it have a problem with skilled immigrants settling permanently
"Singapore’s modern temporary migrant worker selection system is more market friendly than any other country in the world simply because it restricts immigration with dependence ceilings and prices rather than hard numerical caps and allows large numbers of skilled immigrants to settle permanently."
From:
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/cato-working-paper-53...
I would be grateful if you would do me the courtesy of answering my questions, instead of avoiding them. To help, I repeat them here:
According to the article linked:
A source told The Telegraph that officials have been dispatched to Singapore to "understand how a well functioning immigration IT system is developed", including how to "count people in and out the country".
Given that we are less than 100 days from the proposed date of departure, how likely do you think it is that the Home Office will be able to formulate an appropriate policy and take the required measures to implement that policy on November 1?
And, given that we have had a government that has until very recently had an immigration target of less than 100000, do you find it remotely surprising that they are only now considering a system that will allow the Border Force to "count people in and out the country"?
Please include in your answer some useful comment which might propose how the Home Office might go from being as utterly inept as it has proved itself over the past decades, to being the very model of efficiency and competence.
As to your question, I fear a no-deal Brexit is quite likely, given Johnson's determination to leave, 'do or die', and the inability of opposition parties to formulate any meaningful proposal.
> I view them as a test, where if my first reaction is "ahh stuff it, too much hard work" then I'm probably not all that committed to the country I'm in and probably not in a position to whinge about it.
Yes, let’s select inwards migrants based on their aptitude at needlessly over complicated and high stakes box ticking administrative exercises, not on what positives they can bring to the country.
Its such an excellent idea we could re-purpose it, for example in for the promotions sector in higher education...
> What callousness?
Your ignorance and disregard these three years has already had on millions. This is not conjecture or possible future effects, but what has and is happening.
> Of course it’s affecting people. But it’s conjecture. It’s the conjecture that’s affecting people as unless you have some unique insight and a crystal ball as to what exactly is going to happen in the next couple of months, no one has a clue.
If we ignore any callousness of this policy, it’s actually the ineptitude which is staggering. We are constantly told that we will have a points based system so that we can attract the brightest and best from across the world.
But the past three years of mixing political dithering and anti immigration hard talk has had the complete opposite effect. The highly skilled people, the Dutch doctors, Spanish nurses and French scientists with transferable skills are the first to go.
I'm sure, like the ruling classes always have, that he expects others to "die" if it goes wrong. Not Boris boots in the queues
> Of course it’s affecting people. But it’s conjecture. It’s the conjecture that’s affecting people as unless you have some unique insight and a crystal ball as to what exactly is going to happen in the next couple of months, no one has a clue.
If I jump out of a third floor window I'm guessing that expert opinion on the consequences is likely to range from the odd broken bone or two through to significant chance of death. I may, were I to look hard enough or find someone with a vested interest, find someone to say they think I'll walk away unharmed or with just a few bruises.
The thing is that nobody knows what will happen. As you say, it's just conjecture.
But even though nobody can be sure what will happen, strangely we don't see people jumping out of third floor windows unless the alternative is unthinkable.
> As a rule I don't post on political threads but your (and pan rons) callousness on this astounds me. this is really f*cking up peoples lives as is evidenced by numerous examples in this thread,
What exactly is f*cking up people's lives?
The fact that they want to institute a points-based system? That they produced a "discussion paper" on the issue? That "Number 10 says the system allowing European Union citizens to freely live and work in the UK would "look different", with changes including tougher checks to prevent foreign criminals entering the country? That the Home Secretary "wants" X (but almost certainly won't get it)?
Or is it click-bait headlines reporting something as fact, conjecture as certainty, and screaming that A will happen when only B has been put forward as an idea?
The knee-jerk reactions on here put Daily Mail reading gammons to shame!
> What exactly is f*cking up people's lives?
As one small example, EU citizens having the spend thousands and many hours finding long-forgotten payslips, bills etc, to naturalize themselves and their families to have confidence they will be able to continue to work and live the UK. All the while not knowing is some capricious home office diktat will result in them being deported for a minor error.
Previously they had the right to live here. There have no certainly that will be case unless they do the above come October and they don't trust, understandably, the supposedly light-touch registration system.
I think if you look at the impact this is having in the real world rather than 'wot you reckon' you see a very different story. You need not go much further than this thread to see real life examples of how this is effecting people. Many of my European friends and colleagues are incredibly concerned about there legal status post brexit with the government policy essentially saying they may loose there right to remain. Imagine the stress this puts on there families and work. Try putting yourself in there shoes.
The Westminster government is pursuing nothing less than a right wing coup with no majority and no mandate. It's nasty, nationalistic and a direct assault on the progress the UK has made since 1945. Anybody showing them even tacit support is an accomplice in dismantling what's left of democracy and liberalism in the UK. As a Scottish voter I'm appalled at our country being dragged along by this madness unwillingly. I can't think of one single reason why Scotland shouldn't now move promptly to leave a broken, corrupted and unbalanced union.
> Ok, for one second imagine running a business by the rules these people seem to be operating under. How long do you think it would take before you are removed by the board or the company goes under?
Imagine a company that put someone in charge of an extremely complex project when the guy told them before taking the job he was going to quit at midnight the day before the project went live and would be uncontactable in hospital having surgery in the subsequent days.
Like Boris hiring Dominic Cummings.
The only knee-jerk reaction I can see in this thread is you automatically dismissing any criticism of yet another ill-thought-out government (or is it Patel going solo again?) initiative.
I have some knowledge of how temporary work visas work - where, for example, a British guide working in Alps, fit in?
> I just came back from a week hiking away from all this and heard about this.
> My wife is German, both my kids were born in the UK with UK citizen father so are UK citizens. But my wife got them German passports which they are also entitled to and it never mattered because we are all EU citizens.
> Now this total c*nt makes an arbitrary decision and they basically can't take the risk of leaving the country until they get poxy blue passports because they might not get back in.
> They sold Brexit to the gammons with scare stories about Syrian immigrants and Turkey getting into the EU and swamping the country with muslim immigrants. What actually happens is a Tory home secretary outsources immigration processing to an originally Indian company now registered in Dubai and we've got a sweatshop in Dubai or India working for the Home Office whose job is to hassle Europeans.
> Oh, and the Chinese Government own a chunk of this outsourcing organisation which has f*ck knows how much personal data on millions of people - because the Home Office asks for just about every possible thing, not only about the person seeking leave to remain but also their UK citizen family members. It's a safe bet that multiple foreign intelligence services will be accessing all the personal data the Home Office is collecting when they treat it like this rather than keeping it in secure facilities within the UK where all the staff are UK citizens with security clearances.
This is what happens when you ask the home office with whom they share the personal data they collect for their badly named “settled status” scheme:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/settled_status_app_data_privacy#inco...
ho, and if you want to know what information the home office holds you, for example to correct any error that might impact your status, well you can get stuffed as well.
Sadly I am not surprised of the situation.
> I have started to think that maybe they fully expect to lose power around Brexit date and want to snatch up as many populist votes as they can in the aftermath.
I’ve been banging on that three for three years now, there was ever any way the Tories would let 3 millions EU citizens stay on, ultimately secure citizenship and therefore the right to vote, which would easily lock the Tories out of power for a generation.
Thrt will do everything, and I mean everything to push out as many EU citizens as they can. First it will be the hostile environment, then it will be the arbitrary revocation of settled status, and reduction of the rights associated to it (for example, right to a state pension, benefits etc etc).
My bet is that it won’t be long before they restrict the condition for citizenship, one thing that many EU citizens do not know is that when applying for settled status they relinquish their right to apply for British citizenship for one year. During that time I expect they’ll change the citizenship rules and make it arbitrarily difficult and expensive.
> I can't think of one single reason why Scotland shouldn't now move promptly to leave a broken, corrupted and unbalanced union.
Amen to that. An utterly depressing state of affairs.
You should really take these reports with a pinch of salt.
> The Westminster government is pursuing nothing less than a right wing coup with no majority and no mandate. It's nasty, nationalistic and a direct assault on the progress the UK has made since 1945. Anybody showing them even tacit support is an accomplice in dismantling what's left of democracy and liberalism in the UK. As a Scottish voter I'm appalled at our country being dragged along by this madness unwillingly. I can't think of one single reason why Scotland shouldn't now move promptly to leave a broken, corrupted and unbalanced union.
They are in election mode, they’ll do anything to cut the grass under the feet of the Brexit party, and so the shift to the far right and authoritarian regime continues, these people don’t care if a few million people who don’t have the right to vote get thrown under the bus.
This has started years before Brexit, btw.
> and reduction of the rights associated to it (for example, right to a state pension, benefits etc etc).
State pension? I thought the idea was to keep putting up the pension age every few years so nobody ever got that.
> State pension? I thought the idea was to keep putting up the pension age every few years so nobody ever got that.
Well that’s another thing, but say, you’re an EU citizen, worked in the UK for 40 years, you’re 60 years old, and then you’re told you can kiss goodbye to your retirement and can look forward to spend your golden years as a destitute, you’d be fuming. Unfortunately that’s exactly where we are going.
The government has already severely broken most of the promises they made to EU citizens, and I expect this will continue. There is nothing stopping it.
> Well that’s another thing, but say, you’re an EU citizen, worked in the UK for 40 years, you’re 60 years old, and then you’re told you can kiss goodbye to your retirement
Close to where my wife is. There's people have lived in the UK and worked for decades here so their pension and healthcare is tied to the UK now being made unwelcome.
> The government has already severely broken most of the promises they made to EU citizens, and I expect this will continue. There is nothing stopping it.
Indyref2 will stop it in Scotland.
For England this is heading for the same kind of thing that happened in Greece. Continuous crisis and changes of government until finally people get tired and put in someone rational.
Like the Greek Colonels?
> Like the Greek Colonels?
If a Greek Colonel (with accompanying soldiers) walked into Downing Street during a cabinet meeting and shot the lot of them out of hand, then I for one would cheer.
incidentally, perhaps I am blind but can anyone tell me how restriction of movement either way will be enforced at the (No Hard/No undemocratic Backstop) border?
> In a scale of evil from 1 to a 10 (like Vodemort) the tory peer Baroness Warsi gave Patel 12 on a comedy show last week. Less comedic by the day.
Reminds me of this wonderful quote I picked up somewhere "When the politicians start acting like comedians, it's time for the comedians to start acting like politicians", or words to that effect...
It's already happening -
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/13/the-age-of-comedy-populism/
> Close to where my wife is. There's people have lived in the UK and worked for decades here so their pension and healthcare is tied to the UK now being made unwelcome.
> Indyref2 will stop it in Scotland.
I said that before, but you probably won’t get an indyref2.
> incidentally, perhaps I am blind but can anyone tell me how restriction of movement either way will be enforced at the (No Hard/No undemocratic Backstop) border?
With border controls.
> I said that before, but you probably won’t get an indyref2.
It's already through the Scottish Parliament. It's going to happen with or without an s30 order. Watch for the final All Under One Banner march in Edinburgh and see how many people YES can get onto the streets, I don't think indyref 2 is stoppable.
> It's already through the Scottish Parliament. It's going to happen with or without an s30 order. Watch for the final All Under One Banner march in Edinburgh and see how many people YES can get onto the streets, I don't think indyref 2 is stoppable.
It’s completely stoppable. S30 will not be granted, and if Scottish parliament tries to go ahead without, it’ll be shut down through the court, and if she goes ahead anyway, they’ll throw Sturgeon and pro-independence activists in cells.
See what happened to the Catalans.
> I don't think indyref 2 is stoppable.
I'm optimistic that you're right. But the problem, as ROM says, is what happens then? I think, before that, Johnson's 'government' will collapse and there will be another GE ... which will solve nothing. Just delay the painful moment when another EU ref has to be called. How a Scottish Indyref2 would fit into this scenario, I don't know. I think if an EUref2 were strongly remain, the Union might well be saved. In all other scenarios, I would say go for it ... as a way of your remaining in the EU. Ditto Ireland. But then we'd have a very sorry picture indeed of a Little Wingland out of the EU, on its own in the world, with a crumbling economy and a horribly divided society (possibly leading to a kind of civil war in England), and a separate Scotland and Ireland doing just fine, remaining in the EU and with much stronger and growing economies.... Something like that ... but who can possibly look into this murkiest crystal ball we've ever seen?
> It's already through the Scottish Parliament. It's going to happen with or without an s30 order. Watch for the final All Under One Banner march in Edinburgh and see how many people YES can get onto the streets, I don't think indyref 2 is stoppable.
But the result is. Referenda are only advisory (unless the "person" in charge says it will be respected whatever the result). Westminster dont have to respect it. Mind you, if it came with a guarantee that Scotland would go for EU membership, i'd be willing to move the 70 miles north and proclaim to all and sundry that i am an (almost) direct descendant of a McDonald.........Paternal Grandfather's cousin is clearly enough to get me in...
> It’s completely stoppable. S30 will not be granted, and if Scottish parliament tries to go ahead without, it’ll be shut down through the court, and if she goes ahead anyway, they’ll throw Sturgeon and pro-independence activists in cells.
Pushing Scotland about to the extent of locking up pro-EU politicians at a time when the UK needs goodwill from the EU and countries with large communities with Scottish ancestry like the US, Canada and Australia would be really foolish. The rUK needs the EU Parliament and US Senate to sign off trade deals.
> See what happened to the Catalans.
Different situation. Spain was a member in good standing of the EU and even then Catalan politicians that got to other EU countries were not extradited. Also, it isn't over in Catalonia and probably will never be over until they get independence.
Hmm, brexit will end with either revocation, acceptance of the WA, or a short no deal period after which something very similar to the WA will be accepted by the UK. In all those cases it is not in the interest of the EU to start discussing another land border with the UK. I don't think there will be a lot of EU support for the Scottish independence movement.
> Pushing Scotland about to the extent of locking up pro-EU politicians at a time when the UK needs goodwill from the EU and countries with large communities with Scottish ancestry like the US, Canada and Australia would be really foolish. The rUK needs the EU Parliament and US Senate to sign off trade deals.
I don’t thing they actually care about trade deals, not care about their EU influence, if they did, they wouldn’t be leaving the EU.
> Different situation. Spain was a member in good standing of the EU and even then Catalan politicians that got to other EU countries were not extradited. Also, it isn't over in Catalonia and probably will never be over until they get independence.
You’re right, it will never be over, and probably the same would happen in Scotland, they’ll keep asking for a referendum and it will keep being refused.
> Different situation. Spain was a member in good standing of the EU and even then Catalan politicians that got to other EU countries were not extradited. Also, it isn't over in Catalonia and probably will never be over until they get independence.
Well to be accurate the German courts agreed to Puigdemonts extradition but only for misuse of public funds (rebellion doesn't exist in German law) so the Spanish authorities withdrew their request and arrest warrants.
Looks like the Home Office has noticed that people are... concerned.
> Update on the EU Settlement Scheme
> There have been reports in the media and on social media regarding plans to end freedom of movement after we leave the EU, as well as what this means for EU citizens resident in the UK.
> We want to reassure all EU citizens and their family members in the UK that you still have until at least 31 December 2020 to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme, even in the event of a no-deal exit. Furthermore, if someone who is eligible for status is not in the UK when we leave the EU, they will still be free to enter the UK as they are now.
So, let’s say that they do manage to get an act through parliament that ends FOM on the 31st of October. Someone who is eligible for settled status and someone that is ineligible for settled status arrive at the British border. What happens? Either FOM is a thing and they are both let in unchecked, or FOM is not a thing and they are let in unchecked? How can you tell the difference, without having already applied for settled status? Have they worked anything out?
Let’s say that my parents want to visit me on the 1st of November and FOM is not a thing, how would they go on to do that legally?
> Those who have not yet applied to the EU Settlement Scheme by 31 October 2019 will still have the same entitlements to work, benefits and services. Those rights will not change. EU citizens will continue to be able to prove their rights to access these benefits and services in the same way as they do now.
”in the same way as they do now”. Before the settled status was added, this was a muddled mess, to say the least.
It sounds to me like the HO is acting as if there is a perfectly organised system in place that plainly isn’t there. There should be, hell there should have been a system long before Brexit was even conceived, but there is not and we have bugger all time remaining.
I don’t really know whether to be amused by this mess, or be worried by the fact that they are incompetent enough to end up in this mess at this late a stage and they are tasked with the most complicated task in their political careers.
Entirely possible that the HO is having to firefight Patel’s every statement.
The only thing to take from this is that Patil is malicious, she's a liar, she'll change policy on a whim and EU citizens in the UK are not safe.
Imagine being on a long journey with only Priti and Penny Mordant (sic) as travelling companions?
I think most of us would rather not. Your '(sic)' is appropriate.
> I don’t really know whether to be amused by this mess, or be worried by the fact that they are incompetent enough to end up in this mess at this late a stage and they are tasked with the most complicated task in their political careers.
It’s not incompetence. Word is that Whitehall and home office and Whitehall officials are very concerned with the policy, they know it’s going to be a disaster, they have raised red flags and has been briefing extremely hard against it at the highest level, but Patel has forcefully shut them down.
> Your lack of empathy is breathtaking.
He's got tons of empathy... for his cousin Dave
It would appear that FoM isn't going to end anytime soon:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49433027
Yet another thing the Brexiteers haven't thought through properly..